Is Labour right to attack on marriage policy?
January 21st, 2010
Have Harriet and Gord found a weakness in the Tory stance?
In the last couple of days senior Labour front-benchers have launched attack on Tory plans to incentivise marriage - an issue over which David Cameron appears to have strong views.
The latest Labour rhetoric, as Paul Waugh in his Standard blog reports, is to revive the John Major notion of “back to basics” which appeared to rebound so strongly on his government during its latter days.
So are Labour onto a winner? Is this something that could put the Tories on the back foot - or could they find themselves alienating those sections of society who are most likely to vote?
Waugh suggests that this is coming out of Labour’s focus groups which is odd. For what formal polling there has been points to support for the Tory plan by a small margin - see this YouGov survey from last month here.
Maybe this is one of those issues where people tailor their comments when speaking in public but have different views in private when filling in an online survey?
Where I think Labour might be making an error is that marriage supporters tend to be in those segments who are most likely to vote. Going too strong on the issue might just harden up the views of those who are in disagreement. And who apart from political nerds remember “back to basics”?
At the end of the day though I don’t think that this is going to do much either way.
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
Yes, even as a Tory, i’m uncomfortable with Cameron’s marriage tax policies
2nd ?
aaargh secundus?
It must be nice to see the opposition squirm but the danger is seeming to attack marriage or family life in general: a state to which many aspire.
3 tertius??
26th?
They should just let the Tories fall apart.
Which they are doing very well.
FPT - A few film bet recommendations at the end of the last thread.
FPT: For the record Parliament will sit on Wed 10 Feb - it goes into recess at the end of that day. So only one PMQs will be missed.
1 When is next ICM poll would have expected Guardain poll this week.That might give san idea if there has bben any shift in polls from marriage issue.MY own view is that it wont be a switching issue but might galavanise some core voters to turn out on election day.
No - those who’ll vote back it
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=2&forumID=7416&edition=1&ttl=20100121192956&#paginator
Socially conservative types are sick and tired of feral kids, teenage single parents, poor school discipline and on and on.
9 rogerh - those commas are a dead giveaway.
Both sides could be right, politically.
The YouGov survey has Tories backing the proposal and Labour supporters opposing it. The effect of each argument could be to strengthen their supporters intention to vote (although if there is such an effect, it’s likely to be minimal). What the YouGov figures don’t show - annoyingly - is what the Don’t Knows think on that question.
There’s certainly more risk to the Tories pushing the ‘marriage is a good thing’ message, as it does run the risks the Major government fell prey to in the 90s. But perverse incentives for couples to live apart do sound absurd to many and providing the argument can be got across, could prove popular.
O/T. Beeb running a ticker ‘latest’ that Osborne would back plans similar to Obama’s that no bank should be too big to fail. It won’t be popular in the City but will play well politically and if implemented correctly, would be the right thing to do. There can’t be a continuance of the ‘profit = we win; loss = you lose’ situation.
9 - Core voters of which party though?
They have to attack on something. Defence isn’t an option. This isn’t particularly compelling (the Tory policy will strongly appeal to some of Labour’s own core voters), but Labour can hardly just put up their hands and allow David Cameron to say “for you ze war is over”.
It is, however, highly amusing to see Labour politicians attack Tory policies on the ground that they will have the effect of incentivising undesirable social behaviour, after years of hearing Tory politicians attacking the benefit system for the way in which claimants are encouraged to behave.
Is there any single mother that wishes her daughter to aspire to be a single mother too, so that her child can one day go through the same struggles she now has?
Tweet of the Day
“NickyAACampbell [of R5] Fail. A pat does not equal a grope. And believe me, I know.”
BBC have caught up with Obama’s announcement on banks:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8473294.stm
Apparently:
‘’shadow chancellor George Osborne said that if the Conservatives win the next general election, they would impose an identical dismantling of UK banks to those suggested by the US president.
The Treasury said it was considering the proposals “very carefully”. ”
tim, your hyperbole is reaching new depths. Have you paid TGOHF yet?
I think it will come back and bite Labour because they will attack from the wrong perspective, go overboard on it and try and ignore any counter-arguments rather than disprove them, (as an example of an ill thought through attack read Tom Harris’s laughable attempt on his blog).
Unless Labour can prove that such a move would be bad for children (as its intention is to improve childrens lot) then they would be advised to leave it alone.
Not only that but by sending out Balls and Harman, the most unnatractive members of Browns front bench (besides Brown himself), and the most crooked of the Labours ‘fat slags’ as the vanguard for this seems like lunacy.
Bring it on - it is just more vote share for the Conservatives.
The evidence is that marriage benefits everyone so I hope the Tories are very successful with this policy.
15 Mr Collinson - Nail. Hits. Head.
Yet another attempt to grab more cash away from we hard-working and over-taxed single people.
Shadow chancellor George Osborne has told the BBC that if the Conservatives win the general election they will copy US plans to limit the size of banks.
Under the proposals outlined by President Barack Obama, US retail banks will face curbs on their riskier activities.
This could lead to the largest US banks being broken up.
The Treasury said it would consider President Obama’s comments on bank reform “very carefully”.
‘Welcome move’
BBC business editor Robert Peston said Mr Osborne’s comments would “generate profound fear in the boardrooms of Barclays and Royal Bank of Scotland”.
Shares in both banks fell sharply on Tuesday, with Royal Bank of Scotland losing 7% - the biggest decline on the UK’s main FTSE 100 share index. Barclays lost 5.9%.
Under President Obama’s proposals, retail banks would be banned from using their own money in risky financial transactions.
This would prevent them from investing in hedge and private equity funds, or engaging in so-called proprietary trading.
“This is a welcome move by President Obama that accords very much with our thinking,” said Mr Osborne.
“I have said consistently that we should look at separating retail banking from activities like large scale propriety trading - and that this was best done internationally.”
Can’t wait to see all those, ‘Vote Labour’ poster going up in the City, ‘God! don’t know what’ll happen if that damn Commie Osborne gets into NO.11′
22 I agree with you as well - I want to see marriage given a help up, but am very bored of being a single middle-class cash-cow for bugger all.
I’ve had my bin emptied once in three weeks - it may have nothing to do with national politics but I won’t forget this come polling day.
Will Straw says…
“Gordon Brown and Tony Blair have been a huge disappointment and let down the Labour Party”
“More worryingly, Will admits, Labour has little chance of winning the general election outright, especially with Brown at the helm. “My own prediction is that the best we can hope for is a hung Parliament with no clear winner,”
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23796898-im-deeply-angry-with-blair-for-taking-us-to-war-and-for-the-shoddy-way-he-betrayed-my-fathers-loyalty.do
I think older more reliable voters will agree with the Conservative marriage message and others may be fairly neutral. So perhaps more importantly if Labour do make this an issue they may pigeon hole themselves as being negative about marriage and society. Without the full evidence it’s tricky to judge but if the marriage policy is a winner it may derive success from the preparedness to defend it so as to draw the distinction. More quantitative info would help to be certain. I think focus groups might not be the best way to fathom that one out.
In the UK, we now employ more people in Indian restaurants than in steel, mining and shipbuilding combined - Indian Minister on C4 News!
FWIW it appears that Mr Brown believed that he would never win leadership of the Labour party as a single man. Whatever prejudices are involved, therefore, they apparently apply to Labour members as well.
Coldstone, do you cuddle up to a tory because your heart is so black and cold? It certainly clouds your judgement.
27 - I was listening to him, think he went to Eton?
Presumably, Labour must have been making a judgement about the unmarried when they introduced the transferable nil rate band for Inheritance Tax.
You have to be married or civilly-partnered for your heirs to benefit from this rule change.
Labour’s problem is that their attacks are just incoherent. One day, they’re attacking the Conservatives for harming the poor. The next, they’re attacking them for shielding the poor from cuts, while cutting back on middle class benefits.
This might just be me being a big single fellow, but I couldn’t give a damn about this policy. I don’t mind I dislike it, as that would indicate some sort of concern or interest. I find it to be irrelevant.
I’m far more concerned with the big economic questions and Defence. Oh, and kicking Brown out.
28 I believe Mr Bower makes that point in his book
I’m gay and I plan on getting hitched to my partner. The tax break will apply to us and at the moment I would be grateful for any help I can get financially. That’s why Labour are on to a looser; because this isn’t traditionalist ‘back to basics’ nonsense. It’s thoroughly modern.
15 P Collinson, in some places we are now generations away from the “married parents” meme. In some places, unmarried parenthood is just how life is.
25 Well Tony won them 3x elections - strange gratitude.
At least Tories don’t pretend Thatcher was a liability from the moment she won in 79.
Do Labour have no loyalty at all to their greatest ever vote winner? Frankly I find this sort of stuff really ugly and off-putting.
If a party can’t give credit to the man who created their own mandate for a decade, they deserve all they get.
31 class warfare is one of the major planks of Labour dogma, both old and new labour. Always has been, whether it’s dressed up as tax the rich, the many not the few, it’s depressing but there it is.
‘Hard working families’ is another variation.
36 - I know some Labour supporters who believe Labour won in 1997 in spite of Blair, not because of him.
35. Is that a good thing though?
23. The trouble with Osborne is that he can’t keep his trap shut.
This is a typical remark from a second rate politician. There should be a motto engraved on the forehead of every Conservative politician: “think before you speak”.
I’ll still have to vote for the bugger’s; no body could be worse at mucking up Britain than Labour.
Mike.
There’s a bit more recent polling evidence.
But buried in the detail was a figure which might one day cause a setback for the Conservatives: a substantial majority of women don’t like Cameron’s policy on marriage. Among both sexes, opinion is split 46-46 on whether it is right for married couples to be given tax breaks that are not available to unmarried couples. But among women only, 52 per cent oppose the policy, while 39 per cent are in favour (the opposite is true among men).
http://janemerrick.independentminds.livejournal.com/15305.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1244919/Counter-terror-work-Pakistan-slashed-weak-pound.html
“Ainsworth: Afghan war budget is ‘priority’ for MoD
Anti-terror plans at risk from £110m budget shortfall
Tories accuse Labour of drawing up embassy ‘hit list’
The Government’s foreign and defence policies were accused of being ‘in disarray’ today after the Defence Secretary admitted he was being forced to take ‘hard decisions’ to protect the war effort in Afghanistan.
Bob Ainsworth said the exchange rate was causing ‘difficulties’ for both his department and the Foreign Office as ministers were accused of drawing up a secret hit list of embassies to be closed.
The charge follows the disclosure yesterday by minister Baroness Kinnock that the FCO was facing a £110 million budget shortfall as a result of currency fluctuations.
Baroness Kinnock stunned Westminster when she said that fluctuations in sterling had left the Foreign Office out of pocket and claimed that counter-terrorism projects in Pakistan, including projects to prevent the radicalisation of Muslim youths, had been hit as a result.”
“‘It frankly suggests that we have a Government, and in particular a Prime Minister, which is indifferent to the point of negligence towards the global interests of the UK,” he said.”
5 more years??? Not a hope in hell.
23
Sorry, I was under the impression that Tories believed in, ‘free markets’ etc. and didn’t support government interference: obviously I was wrong. It’ll certainly give HSBC and Barclays something to think about.
p.s.
The colour and temperature of my heart, I’m afraid I couldn’t vouch for.
p.p.s.
Will Dave’s Clause Four moment be, when he adopts it?
All the tories need to do is turn the debate towards supporting children during their most important developmental age of 0-6. By limiting the proposals to parents of children 6 and under, which I think IDS says will cost £900m would achieve this. No one, including labour, will seriously go on the attack over a policy which will really help our children!!!
41 46% is above what the Conservatives are polling.
Guess the Question Time Questions.
http://cityunslicker.blogspot.com/
38 Did they vote for Mr Scargill’s party
43 Such a policy is not inconsistent with such a philosophy.
47 - No, they voted Labour.
40. More rubbish from Labour. Still trying to re-run the 1997 or 2001 elections. Still tired, utterly out of touch and lacking in any new ideas.
31 - Sean.
The reason this story is still running (who’d have guessed it) is the total confusion within the Conservative Party about what it is, what it’s supposed to do, whether it will work, when it will be implemented and who it will aplly to.
You can’t blame Labour and the Lib Dems for pointing that out.
Listening to Willetts and Greening try to defend it yesterday on the Radio was cringe making, and Willetts was up against Ed Balls for god sake.
Has Gordon “Live Aid” Brown made any more announcements about “his” charidee record?
Perhaps he’s busy with Sarah, practicing gurns, weird inappropriate smiles and groovy moves for the video?
Plato at 24 “I want to see marriage given a help up, but am very bored of being a single middle-class cash-cow for bugger all”
Council Tax is the one which really infuriates me. As a single person get a 25% discount. So I pay Council Tax minus 25%. Someone who’s part of a couple will be paying Council Tax minus 50% as their bill will be split between themselves and their partner.
Do I get a better service from my council for paying one and a half times as much as a non-single person? Nope…
44 Absolutely - and to increase the threshold up to 11 as thing get better.
That ultimate symbol of business and capitalist success -
the Labour Party itself is now gearing up to launch its own iPhone app next month.
The app will provide up-to-the-minute information and campainging tools, personalised to the user’s location by GPS or postcode.
It will also feature:
* Updates from Labour’s social networking presence, including Facebook and Twitter.
* Local Labour representative contact details, including MPs and PPCs.
* Local and national Labour Party news.
* Personalised notifications and alerts so you can get all the latest news and information out to Labour candidates and supporters on the doorstep during the election period.
Perhaps most importantly, the app will make the successful Virtual Phone Bank mobile – enabling a user to easily call voters from wherever they are.
41 tim
I think you are onto something there. Women are far more put off by the marriage proposals than men, in my anecdotal experience.
I’ve also been flagging up the gender breakdown in polls occasionally. The Tory/Labour lead amongst men is much higher than amongst women.
Could focusing on Tory Proposals on Marriage actually backfire on Labour though?
The Immigrant Labour vote that has arrived in Britain over the years are pretty conservative socially. Don’t they stone folk for death for mating outside of wedlock in some places?
Labour seem to have lost much of the white working class vote, so they need their Immigrant vote. Banging on about how bad marriage is assuming the relevant immigrants understand what is being said is hardly going to fire up some of these folks is it?
Maybe they put immigration for thereselves and their family above religous and social beliefs but given how excersised some of the immigrant groups become - Labour maybe shooting themselves in the foot with immigrants as well!
52 - Sarah got booed the other day, he’s probably dropped her as a prop now.
34 - I’m gay and I plan on getting hitched to my partner. The tax break will apply to us and at the moment
I think you missed the latest rumour that it will only apply to married couples with children below a certain age
How many of the Labour cabinet are married?
Brown to the Twitterer
Balls to Cooper
Harman to Dromey
Straw to Perkins
Burnham to Van-Heel
Alexander to Christian
Darling to Vaughan
… Are ANY of them NOT married? Seems pretty easy to counter. If marriage is so wrong, why do you all practice it? Is this more of one rule for them, one for us?
48
C’mon Sean you can’t really believe that!
To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.
Just in case you need a refresher course.
Given that Tories have not costed it, or worked out how much it is, I think Labour are on to something. After all, if it turns out to be £20 a year, then we know how much value the Tories put on marriage. And if is £20 a week, the cost is huge.
Which focus groups are we talking about. It sounds like Labour is using this as another attempt at shoring up its core supporter base - which is unlikely to favour the Tory proposals on marriage tax-breaks.
As it stands there are incentives for splitting up, which is why so many people lie about having a partner. Being a single parent is positively rewarded, which is odd.
The tories might need to be careful not to sound too old-fashioned, but from what i’ve heard there hasn’t been any moralising, they have been at pains not to give the impression that there is something necessarily inferior about single parent families, but the inescapable facts are that on average two parents are better than one.
Possible to blunder and for it to backfire, but on balance a slight vote winner (if only via motivating natural supporters, not swaying undecideds) I would think.
There are many voters who will think that David Cameron is thinking of them and in supporting marriage supports them. There are many others who think the opposite.
Perhaps both parties gain as it will polarize votes to the big two from all the others.
One of labour’s big fears must be that Lib Dems will come close or overtake them, so this message is probably wise although not directed at winning over Tory voters.
43 Osborne said some time ago that he believed “too big to fail” was unsupportable and that retail and “casino” banking should be separated. Whether one is a free market purist or a conservative the existence of a state guarantee for all banks means that market principles are already compromised and banking is far from being a competitive free market as it is, particularly in some fields where a few big players dominate and rake in excessive profits due to dominance.
Barriers to entry are now high, because of the increased regulatory regime, and restoring competitive practices will requires proactive intervention from the state.
55 - That is one app i wont be downloading.
It’s often commented here that lefties misrepresent tory policies, but perhaps sometimes they don’t realise they’re doing it.
I say this, because Coldstone clearly hasn’t got a clue why classically liberal economic policies are consistent with the prevention of monopolies and systemic risks.
The monopolies and mergers commission was once a mighty organisation, then Labour got back in and corporatism made a comeback.
35 jsfl, that’s the whole point, isn’t it? In my view, very undesirable, but then I’m an old-fashioned traditionalist.
IMHO many young girls who want babies are looking for the unconditional love which a baby has for Mummy. It’s the wrong way round: Baby needs unconditional love from Mummy (and Daddy too, hopefully, because Baby’s love needs are best supplied through Mummy & Daddy loving each other unconditionally).
That’s the ideal, IMHO.
Nice to see George finally catching up with Vince..again.
Perhaps the chap has read the Economist last week and is taking lessons.
62. Amoeba-like splitting of the astroturf virus…
Or playing with his new Labour iPhone App?
Destroying the economy: Theres an app for that!
So was it the House of Commons that was mislead By Brown or the House of Lords by Kinnock.
What a bunch of clowns.
Ultimately, Brown is responsible for these anti-terror cuts
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/
Just a reminder the national Debt today courtesy of the Labour Parteh is £762,780,780,764
0r £30,260 per family
Its gone up £2 million in the time I took to write this post
69 was for 39, sorry.
43. I don’t see what all the surprise is.
All they are doing is extending the concept of the Monopolies Commission further.
Remember banks like RBS are already prohibited from buying any other UK bank because they are too big and the only politician to break that rule has been Gordon Brown to save all those seats in Labour heartlands that would have been crippled if HBOS had of gone under…..
56 - Given that a husband who leaves a wife and children will take his tax break into a new marriage, are you surprised?
And theres so many different versions flying around that the latest policy seems to apply only to those families where the woman can afford not to work.
55. Tim B Shame it’s a bit crap…
http://order-order.com/2010/01/21/icampaign-hots-up/
51 - This is bad for Brown, for The Daily Mail (editor friend of Brown) to seek out studies which support the policy and kick Labour. Balls/Brown are very stupid, they will need the papers during the election and this is just driving yet another paper from a mild critic to an enemy.
69. Fair enough I agree. I just wasn’t sure what point you were making….
60 I suspect Ben Bradshaw, Mandelson and Nick Brown might not be married..to each other or anyone else…..
76 “his tax break”? what an old fashioned almost Victorian view you have of the world tim.
61, See 66.
Generally speaking, Conservatives are in favour of unsuccessful businesses being allowed to fail.
66
If he’s going to break up a bank let it be RBS, the most useless self-serving organisation this country has been unfortunate to create.
53: Not all services are provided to people . You get one house worth of lighting, of paths to it, of pavements and roads nearby, all at a 25% discount. You also get one equal share of a binman’s time (with no worries about overfilling it and incurring a fine). There is in short loads of services you get at 25% off.
Stop whinging and get a girlfriend. Or even a wife for extra tax credits!
Do I take it tim, that you object to Alistair Darling’s changes to IHT in 2007?
77 So the’ve announced it but they don’t yet have the final spec, they haven’t thought it through, and it may well not work - so New labour.
http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2010/01/21/is-labour-right-to-attack-on-marriage-policy/comment-page-1/#comment-1394776
AnneJPG - couldn’t agree more. The kids I went to school with who became single mums were lacking self-esteem, aspiration and truancy types.
I can’t think of a red flag that says LOVE ME more than that.
85 - FPT, yes my heart was in my mouth.
53. King Peladon
Well what about a family with 3 adult kids living at home?
80. “what an old fashioned almost Victorian view you have of the world “
I think the word you are looking for is misogynist
80 - Men are more likely to get remarried after divorce and the children are more likely to stay with the mother.
Its not rocket science.
Anyhow, as we’ve seen divorce rates have fallen recently but rose when the tax allowance was in place in the eighties and nineties, so it seems not to work anyway.
88 - didn’t Janet Street Porter speak like that also?
Now comes tentative news that Nancy Pelosi may try reconciliation after all, but it’s not apparent how this can work if the votes aren’t there to pass the Senate version of the bill:
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/2010/01/its-reconciliation.html#ixzz0dH1r09ON
68
Systemic risk, are you saying that it is the purpose of the government to remove risk! Then nationalise the lot of ‘em then there wouldn’t be any risk.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Dave-n-George don’t come round to that.
92
After hubris, comes Nemesis.
I think support for marriage tax breaks will be strongest amongst CDE, especially C1 and C2 men. I predict support amongst AB will be lower than overall Tory poll levels.
92 - Janet Street Porter and I in the same breath. I think I need to lie down.
FPT
The infamous Cameron poster spotted outside Aberdeen train station presumably to catch Aberdeenshire West voters where they’ll finish second (Tory target 171 according to UK polling report) and Aberdeen South where they’ll finish third.
Good point from Mr Dale - anecdotal is obvious at PB
“Stratford Conservative has written a blogpost questioning whether this poster has backfired on the Conservatives. He thinks not. I tend to agree. Any poster which is still being talked about two weeks after it first appeared has to have something going for it. Cameron dealt with the airbrushing issue with good humour and I think the fact that it has generated 74,000 new versions rather speaks for itself…”
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/
68
Its a bit cyrptic, but I suspect Carswell isn’t to keen on the idea.
Obama gets tough on Wall Street ….
… declares the Guardian.
Let no one mis-think that this is a knee-jerk response to the good and wise voters of Massachusetts, eh.
Alternatively, re-read Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged. Replace the word “rail road” with “bank”, and you see that Wesley Mouch and Orren Boyle have become prototypes of those who make public policy, rather than fictional caricatures.
91. Cut the crap about divorce rates unless you can provide statistics on the break up rates of unmarried couples?
“After hubris, comes Nemesis.”
It occurred to me today that the lackwit collective (under the inexpert leadership of the Smearleader in Chief) will have decades in which to complain about the incoming Conservative government, but we have only a scant few weeks left to savour the bungling ineptitude, crass hypocrisy, venal troughing and wilful debasement of society that has characterised New Labour!
And there was much rejoicing…
96 - Ironically those where both partners work and the break won’t apply (if the latest stories are true)
There’s also secondary damage though.
This is supposed to be part of Camerons “core belief” yet it falls apart the first time he’s questioned about it when they’ve had four years to put it in place.
94
Coldie my friend, perhaps you need to gain some understanding before spouting. Osborne has been saying for years that the BoE needs it powers to manage the banks restored. That means the central bank *actively* intervening, where it feels like, in the banking sector, in order to remove systemic risk.
You will be hard-pressed to find a tory, from Ken Clarke to John Redwood, who disagrees.
just over 2 years ago…
“In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Andy Burnham, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, says there is a “moral case” for promoting the traditional family through the tax system. “I think marriage is best for kids,” he says. “It’s not wrong that the tax system should recognise commitment and marriage.”"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566035/Minister-hints-at-tax-reforms-for-marriage.html
What changed, did his wife dump him?
If coherence is what one expects from governments fighting a war, it was sadly lacking yesterday. A Commons statement by the Prime Minister on Wednesday that the Afghan-Pakistan border posed the primary security threat to this country was followed by news that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office had cut its budgets for counter-terrorism in Pakistan and a counter-narcotics programme in Afghanistan.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/7047245/Counter-terrorism-cuts-and-confusion.html
Gordon Brown, making a pig’s ear of the job since 1997. 5 more years!
I suspect we’re going to see it deployed in action on Question Time tonight. Spelman is pretty rubbish and could easily fall apart over it if she hasn’t been thoroughly briefed (though Byrne is such an odious bully she might get away with it).
94. Coldstone
are you saying that it is the purpose of the government to remove risk
What do you think the armed forces, the health service, the police, the fire service etc etc etc are for?
I forgot you’re a socialist and think that Government is there to control and tax people just for the hell of it. Shish!
103
Or don’t have the courage of their convictions. Still it would be something if Clarke and Redwood could agree on anything.
Believe me if on coming to power the Tories decide to break up the big banks, (looking at the reaction already in the US) no one would be happier than me.
104 Brilliant
79 jsfl, sorry, I was replying to 35:
Is there any single mother that wishes her daughter to aspire to be a single mother too, so that her child can one day go through the same struggles she now has?
by P. Collinson January 21st, 2010 at 7:35 pm
I meant that when single motherhood is the only pattern of life you know about, it doesn’t occur to you that those “struggles” are avoidable. Same with partners splitting up - you expect it, because that’s what always happens, isn’t it?
So the answer to P Collinson’s question is almost certainly “Yes” - nowadays, it’s the only way to get real, unconditional love, isn’t it?
Thanks to Gordon Brown, the Iraq inquiry has become largely an exercise in reading between the lines against a government strategy of the selective release of information and selective quotation. From that perspective, we learnt this afternoon, in spite of Jack Straw’s best efforts, that in a letter to George Bush in July 2002, Tony Blair gave a pretty unconditional undertaking that Britain would join in the US-led invasion of Iraq. The government has blocked publication of that letter. Jack Straw, who also blocked publication of the pre-war cabinet minutes, agrees with that suppression.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/21/iraq-inquiry-jack-straw
Gordon Brown. The PLP crowned this chump unopposed. 5 more years!
At the time the credit crunch started and as it became apparent that Northern Rock was in difficulty, the Governor of the Bank of England was talking about “moral hazard” and the dangers arising if this was ignored.
Two or three years we have witnessed what was generally seen to be a sound bank brought to its knees by the forced merger with a failed bank in circumstances that broke all the rules of the Government’s own mergers and acquistion policy. We have banks that have been allowed, if not encouraged, to become “too big to fail”. The consequences of giving up on “moral hazard” are now clear.
It seems that the present Government is all but paralysed in that they are the architects of the failed structure. We do need radical thinking in order to get back to a sustainable financial model.
The likes of Tim and Coldstone are but just supporting evidence that the present administration is incapable of producing any new constructive thinking as they have run out of ideas, energy and time.
108
Then you’ll be pleased to hear that Osborne’s has already announced his intention to break-up the Lloyds-HBOS monster that Gordon created. As to the others, it will depend on market share, not market capitalisation. Geez, no wonder your so reactionary whenever a tory is mentioned, you really don’t understand any of this do you?
101. It’s hardly a collective, is it? More a sparse rabble of random loons and obsessives.
‘At the end of the day though I don’t think that this is going to do much either way.’
Mike’s right. Labour and tim might be excited that they’ve found the game changer, but in the real world outside the bubble that is pb.com, this issue isn’t go to make much difference.
The electorate have bigger issues to think about when it comes to casting their vote.
111 “5 more years” .. or “5 years” ?
107
You’d have a problem with the armed forces, but a lot of what they do could be privatised. The Health service (most Tories hate it, and would love to find away to scrap, what Hannan calls a socialist nightmare hand it over to private health insurance. The police, much of what they do could be handed over to private security companies. The Fire Service could be handed over to Insurance companies. Surely something along those lines would fit the Tory view of the world.
116 - had almost 3, so 5 more is a real enticement….
113. There is already general agreement that parts of RBS will be sold off (such their insurance services - Churchill, Direct Line)as well.
113
Can’t wait just as I can’t wait for Lord Forsyth’s proposal to lop off 75 billion pounds of public money in one go: brilliant.
Fundig for a key crime reduction programme aimed at tackling anti-social behaviour and drugs in local communities has been cut in half, a leaked Home Office letter has revealed.
The move yesterday overshadowed figures that signalled the recession crime wave appears to be in reverse with most offences now in decline.
However rural Britain continues to be hit hard with violent crime, sex offences, robbery and burglary all up in the shire counties.
New Labour; tough on competence, tough on the cause of competence. 5 more years!
101. Scott P
We need to get as many (cheap) shots in as we can then!
113
I still can’t understand why RBS isn’t openly on the slate.
A bank which won’t lend to UK SMEs but which will back and braindead scheme of property bubbles in Dubai or the destruction of perfectly sound businesses like Cadbury’s.
Somebody shut put the b’stards out of our misery.
117
Coldie, that post reads like a left wing dystopia from the 60s. Have you read a book called the Iron Heel by Jack London? I think you would enjoy it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Heel
I also found some interesting stuff in this article from around that time..
“The ONS said married couples bringing up their children had the greatest number staying on at school after 16 - seven out of ten boys and eight out of ten girls.
The report added: “There are benefits in partnership, particularly marriage.”
Mr Brown’s tax credit benefits system, introduced from 1998, has been blamed for persuading many mothers to stay single because it pays more to lone parents than to couple families.
Labour has stripped away the last tax break for the married, the Married Couples Allowance, and tried to downgrade the importance of marriage, removing references to it from official documents, and making register offices replace signs mentioning weddings with ones alluding to “ceremonies”.
• There is no tax or benefit incentive for couples to marry as opposed to living together as cohabitees.
Many cohabitations are thought to break up because the benefit system is heavily skewed in favour of single people. ”
Mr Brown’s tax credit system pays single mothers who work more than 16 hours a week and provides them with generous childcare allowances.
But tax credits make no provision for a second adult in the house, and the income of a working second adult means lower tax credits.
Labour MP and former welfare reform minister Frank Field has calculated that a single mother with two children under 11 on the minimum wage received tax credits last year that took her weekly income to £487 if she worked only 16 hours a week.
A two-parent family with one earner would have to put in 116 hours of work on the same pay to get the same money.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23415130-number-of-cohabiting-couples-soars-by-two-thirds-under-labour.do
Due to OTHER defence budget cuts our caring Government have advised the Armed Forces that the BFPO facilities in mainland Europe will be shut from September 2010.
In April, the Government quietly announced the closure of more than one in seven military post offices to save £1.7 million. Some 11 mail centres across mainland Europe, including in Brussels, Brunssum, Ramstein, Stavanger, Karup, Naples, Rome, Milan, Lisbon and Valencia, are set for closure.
A service wife has set up a petition so unlike this government who seem not to care please Support the armed services and sign ASAP! Please also spread the link if you can. Thank you
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/SaveBFPO/sign
Deadline June 9th 2010
76,853 have signed so to date.
125
Or just look at the other end of the spectrum - Edlington.
107. Coldstone
Are you losing it or something? I’m not talking about privatisation.
I was responding to your inference that risk management is not a function of Government whereas in reality risk management is a fundamental function of Government.
106 -
Dimbleby - “So should the tax allowance only apply to married couples looking after children”
Spelman - “You mean my secretary is married?”
126 Kristin - and the State disintermediates the family…
“As the budget nears, there’s the scent of blood in the air
The public has not yet engaged with election mania, but events are conspiring to produce a genuine political contest”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/21/deficit-cuts-conservatives-labour-election
124
I read it years ago, preferred, ‘White Fang’ though.
A big bank is a big bank ‘cos its successful surely, it wouldn’t be big otherwise. If Osborne is supporting Obama on the lines, that banks that are to big to fail must be broken up, then its goodbye Barclays.
104. “What changed, did his wife dump him?”
The only thing that’s changed is that there is a general election mere months away. Otherwise Labour would be just as happy to make vague promises about recognising marriage in the tax system.
Forget the details, it is probably bollocks, what the Tories want is Labour to paint themselves as the anti-marriage party. So far so good.
130 - divide and conquer ? Seems to me that Labour do not want a cohesive society, rather a tangled mess of dependants. Sheesh,
133
what the Tories want is Labour to paint themselves as the anti-marriage party
Oh they’ve done that all right….
134 - I meant to say and I speak as someone who was a single parent for many years. I didn’t rely on benefits I got off my bahookie and yes I believe in marriage being recognised even if the it didn’t work out for me first time around. The last thing you need is a government telling you not to bother.
128
Why? whats it got to do with government, you are obviously a socialist.
134 - The divorce rate is falling, you knew that didn’t you?
And it rose fastest when a tax break was in place.
I think the Tories have been weak on this, but they could be much stronger by highlighting Labour’s benefits system incentivsing couples to live apart. If Cameron wrapped it up with a slew of measures to strengthen all family ties (not just working marrieds), it would appear alot more coherent.
135. jsfl.
“Marriage; that’s just for toffs! Vote Labour! 5 more years!”
139 - If single pensioner gets £90 per week and a couple get £150 is that an incentive to split up?
If so are the Tories going to change it?
138
It rose fastest when the social stigma disappeared.
Reading your garbage, your wife deserves a tax break.
“The U.K. government’s latest gilt auction attracted solid demand Thursday, with the bid-to-cover ratio moving higher from the previous tender, data from the U.K. Debt Management Office showed.
The GBP3.25 billion reopening of the 3.75% September 2019 Treasury gilt was covered 2.38 times, up from 1.81 at the previous auction of this bond, held December 8.
The 10-year benchmark gilt was up 0.21 at 103.919, yielding 3.981%, down from 3.995% prior to the auction results.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100121-705075.html?mod=rss_Bonds
138, has it occurred to you that only the most committed couples might be getting married given the rise in cohabiting couples as per the ONS report I cited, this would affect divorce rates.
I’m against Marriage…
I’m not against love, mind you, or even against bonding for life if that’s the way things turn out. It is only the public contract I object to. Why does a private relationship need a public sanction? Why can’t you negotiate your relationship on your own, as it unfolds, just between the two of you, without the social or governmental license?
Instead of enhancing your relationship, marriage might screw it up permanently, replacing true attraction with a dull institution. At the least, it reduces your flexibility, making it harder to respond to inevitable changes in yourself and your partner.
Gay relationships, in fact, may be leading the way to an enlightened future that heteros ought to embrace. Think about it: Gays can’t get married, so what do they do? They piece together the elements of marriage á la carte, as it suits their needs. If they want to share death benefits, that make up wills. If they want to share a bank account, they open one together. They don’t try to share everything all at once from this day forth, which, legally, is what marriage makes you do. Gays have to negotiate every act of sharing on a case-by-case basis, which is the essence of a healthy and dynamic relationship. In the absence of specific negotiated sharing, they remain free and independent individuals.
Campbell’s First Law says that the nastiness of the divorce is proportional to the unreality of the initial delusion. Divorce is the paying of the piper after an overdose of fantasy.
During divorce, there is plenty of blame floating around, but in the end, you have to acknowledge that it was your own damn fault. You were the one who bought into this fantasy. Before you got married, you believed the fairytale nonsense, that this was really going to change your relationship for the better and make it more “secure”. The trouble with security is that it often works both ways: In trying to lock out the uncertainties of the world, you may be locking yourself in a cage that reduces your own freedom. Because you can no longer easily step away, you may have lost much of your ability to negotiate with your cellmate. Instead, you make accommodations and more accommodations and sweep problems under the carpet until-Kaboom!-things finally blow up.
People are fundamentally independent entities. The urge to merge with someone else can be huge, but there is a practical limit to how far you can go. If you get too close to anyone for too long, there are bound to be problems. It is like being handcuffed to the one you love: After the novelty wears off, it is going to be a pain in the ass to get anything done. The person you are trapped with is bound to fray on your nerves. Once you have already shared everything you can share, you hunger for new experiences as an independent being so you can maybe come back later and share again.
The healthiest base position is one of discrete individuality. We should each be self-contained entities with our own careers, assets, goals and relationships. We should come together with others only as it suits us, negotiating each engagement on its own merits. Over time, we might share more of ourselves, and this is fine, as long as it happens naturally. You never have to take any “Big Step” to make a relationship work. Instead, a lot of little steps could conceivably lead you to the same result. If you move slowly and incrementally, what you will probably have in the end is a more solid and stable relationship, because everything was carefully built stone by stone to suit your needs, not purchased as a prefabricated unit.
The institution of marriage replaces an independently constructed relationship with a single social contract that attempts to compact years of development into a single sentence: “I do.” It is like buying your diploma from a mail order company rather than actually going to college. It is a waving of the magic wand that is supposed to build everything all at once. You stand up before all your family and friends and say, “This is all I am ever going to want for the rest of my life.” Do you think that by saying this you are really going to make it happen?
If it does happen-you remain attached to each other for life-how do you know it was really a free choice? Did you stay together because it was truly the best arrangement, or was it because you were imprisoned together and escape was too painful? If you are married, you are never really going to know.
143
So you are telling us interest rates are going up ?
We know that.
135/140 - I see the inability to explain your own policy has sent you down to the emptiness of Plato and Oracle world.
Its only the depths of EdP and MTF below that.
“Please Mr Cameron, give them a policy to understand”
147 - Tim do you have to be sooooooooooo personal and nasty?
It does your cause no help at all.
“Marriage; that’s just for toffs! Vote Labour! 5 more years!”
by Scott P January 21st, 2010 at 8:51 pm
.. and cabinet ministers, oh and the PM( who only seemed to warm to the idea when he realised that single men don’t get a shot at the top job that often )
145
If it does happen-you remain attached to each other for life-how do you know it was really a free choice? Did you stay together because it was truly the best arrangement, or was it because you were imprisoned together and escape was too painful? If you are married, you are never really going to know.
Next year is my fortieth anniversary, I’ve never regretted a moment of it, not one single moment. It worked for us, I can’t speak for anyone else.
marbles January 21st, 2010 at 8:49 pm
The only weakness is the Tories doubting themselves.
Labour have nothing but debt to offer the country and failure.
You are right on the benefits system just breaking some families.
It would be better if the benefit system was replaced with lower taxes IMO. Benefits have become too identified with cheats, scroungers and the like. They shift the emphasise away from independence to expecting the state to provide a hand out. I can understand why the Labour party would choose to create an all powerful state but i think it is bad for getting the potenial out of people.
148
Maybe he can explain why Brown got married. Act of convenience or true love ?
You’d trust these people with your personal details?
Magistrates’ details sent to prisoners
The names and phone numbers of magistrates have been sent to prisoners by mistake in another data blunder.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/7043845/Magistrates-details-sent-to-prisoners.html
137. Coldstone
Why do we have an army? To mitigate THE RISK of being attacked.
Why do you have a health service? To mitigate THE RISK of people getting hurt or being ill.
Why do you have sea defences? - to avoid THE RISK of flooding by the sea.
Why do we have benefits? - to avoid THE RISK of the infirm, the unemployed the old etc from starving or freezing to death.
Now I may believe in lite touch Government but I don’t believe in no Government at all. Oh and by the way I’d rather be dead than be a socialist…..
This is one issue, that made me not like Cameron, and it looks like rearing it’s head again
David Cameron facing Tory grassroots questions on grammar schools
David Cameron will on Friday come under pressure from grassroots Conservatives over his opposition to grammar schools.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7046552/David-Cameron-facing-Tory-grassroots-questions-on-grammar-schools.html
“Pollsters predict Tory win but with Lib Dems as kingmaker in off-the-cuff predictions at meeting to refine polling methods”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/21/pollsters-2010-election-prediction
144 - As the average length of a marriage amongst those people getting divorced in 2004, when Divorce starts began to was 11.5 years then the “lack of commitment” had set in with a marriage tax allowance in place in the early/mid nineties.
I think you just undermined your whole case.
132 Why goodbye? Where to? Shareholders would probably realise a great deal more value by split of Barclays into Retail & Investment. Barclays Retail would be a solid investment, low risk and reasonable if boring annual dividend, Barclays Investment high risk, no implied guarantee but offering higher returns.
We can’t afford that the banks that hold ordinary peoples savings and mortgages, small business financing use that capital base to gamble on higher risk business. We should have learnt that much from RBS & HBOS.
Re 145. Shish another loony-tune….
152 - if you read the Bower book, all is explained….
PEDANT ALERT:
I’ve just received my copy of the TotalPolitics Guide to the 2010 election and I’ve spotted a mistake: page 15, it says “The most prominent teenage candidate in 2010 will be Emily Benn” - of course she is already 20 years old.
148. “do you have to be sooooooooooo personal and nasty?”
It would appear to be a defining characteristic. Empty rhetoric and Byzantine logic failed. Outright falsehoods are passée. Personalised abuse is the weapon of choice.
Clearly a winner. 5 more years!
151
So tell me Martin how much in benefits do you get, and which category do you come under: cheats, scroungers or the like?
Oh sorry! of course you’re a victim, (people like you always are) of this dreadful government.
For me its simples
When Mrs Saddo had baby she stopped work
So 2 salaries with 2 tax allowances became 1 and 1
So either stay skint but kiddo gets good Mrs Saddo time or Mrs Saddo back to work, kid with nanny and all that jazz
Mrs Saddo stays at home and we’re skint
Why shouldn’t we have her tax allowance added to mine?
There’s an overall message covering the Conservatives’ IHT and tax reduction for married couples: they are the party looking at ways of reducing taxes during the course of the next parliament.
Labour harping on about the iniquities of individual proposals simply gives more publicity to the tax-reducing agenda.
One for the CyberNats
Antimonarchist minister wanted Queen’s estate in ‘dangerous’ tourist map
An antimonarchist minister wanted to publish details of the Queen’s Scottish estate in a popular tourist map until the Home Office threatened to overrule her.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/theroyalfamily/7046020/Antimonarchist-minister-wanted-Queens-estate-in-dangerous-tourist-map.html
148 TSE, I think you are speaking to the wrong tim unless its alcohol, but its more likely to be a shift change.
Embarrassment for Brown as major report reveals inequality has increased under Labour
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245080/Embarrassment-Brown-major-report-reveals-inequality-increased-Labour.html
159 - It’s actually an interesting philosophical point of view, just needs a bit of time to read it and take it in.
Not exactly the same as our real loony tune friends such as Tapestry (who was trying to convince me that teachers are systematically hypnotising students into committing suicide last week or something…)
121. If you are going to make statements like that, Coldstone Old Boy, then please get your facts right. Forsyth has not advocated cuts of “£75bn in one go”.
Darling is proposing to half the budget deficit by 2013 which may involve cuts of £38bn per annum, or is it 17%. Forsyth is talking about trying to eliminate the deficit by 2015 which may require cuts by then of £75bn per annum. So Government and Oppopsition are talking about the same direction of travel with an adviser suggesting a possibly slightly different speed.
157 not quite sure what you are trying to say there.
162 - Don’t forget the news sense.
Just how many votes has the Tory/Saffron Waldon SS allies in Europe cost Cameron.
154
Well having an armed forces has never prevented attacks, we’ve had plenty off ‘em
The Health Service, well people like Dan Hannan says it makes you sicker, not better.
Sea defences, probably do more harm than good,if it stops it at one place, shifts it to another.
Benefits, given to cheats, scroungers and the like, ask Martin he knows.
164 - Why shouldn’t that apply to two people in exactly the same position as you but without the marriage.
165 - There’s an overall message covering the Conservatives’ IHT and tax reduction for married couples: they are the party looking at ways of reducing taxes during the course of the next parliament.
Look at where those tax cuts are targeted.
They benefit the wealthiest.
tim, Cameron has won the election. He knows that, you know that - we all know that.
So now he has the luxury of saying things just for the hell of f*cking with your mind…
169 UKPaul. Whatever I’ve no time for such philosophical mumbo jumbo tonight.
163. coldstone January 21st, 2010 at 9:03 pm
I don’t normally bother to reply to you but the reason I wrote what I did is because of ignorant people like you.
Your a vile piece of shit. Every bit of you belongs in the Labour party.
151.
I think Finkelstein explained the marriage policy in the wider context of rebuilding society.. and it made perfect sense, completely sold it. At the moment it kind of feels to me like the marriage policy is just dangling, hanging, all alone, with no explanation for its presence.. like a carrier bag in an autumnal tree. It needs some context narrative to go with it.
166 TSE
http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/scotland/default.stm
180 - Thanks for that Oldnat.
169 - nothing, surely, that 5 more years couldn’t fix?
Benefits, given to cheats, scroungers and the like, ask Martin he knows.
by coldstone January 21st, 2010 at 9:08 pm
very lib dem of you coldy,you should be right at home in that party
It was an egg-on-face PMQs for Gordon Brown who, worryingly, seems to have become addicted to not answering questions. It has become so bad that I fear the event should be renamed Prime Minister Doesn’t Answer Questions or, ghastly thought, PMDAQ. Yesterday he fielded more than 20 queries and he bullied, joked, scorned and blustered his way out of most.
No wonder MPs were reduced to throwing eggs — in this case Cadbury Creme (yum).
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/parliamentary_sketch/article6995836.ece
Good news, this numpty only has a few weeks left!!
173 - Come on TSE, you know I’m right on this one, its a car crash for the Tories, how many votes it’ll shift is yet to be seen.
Sometimes the pack don’t realise whats going on in their own party.
Remember those who wanted Hague, Davis or Grayling put up against Nick Griffin rather than Baroness Warsi.
PS.
Paddy Power are cutting their odds on An Education and Andy Serkis
184 - We’re going to miss Gordon Brown when he’s gone.
Yes, I have been drinking tonight.
174. Well having an armed forces has never prevented attacks, we’ve had plenty off ‘em
Thats why I used the word ‘mitigate’ and not ‘avoid’. You cannot stop attacks but you reduce the impact of such attacks by having an army.
Shish. This is like teaching kids to eat with their mouth closed.
Anyway Coldstone it sounds to me like you’d be better off voting for the BNP given your mean spirited attitudes?
Benefits, given to cheats, scroungers and the like,
Didn’t you get your winter allowance this year?
I agree with those who say this is not a big issue either way. Cameron is doing this because he thinks it’s the right thing to do as part of a wider set of pro-family measures, not to attract votes. However, it will be popular with the party, which is no bad thing since some of his other policies aren’t so popular with the traditionalists in the party.
There is potential time-bomb, however, for all parties: the anti-marriage bias in the pension system. Not currently much of an issue, but as couples who are not married come up to retirement age in large numbers, this is going to be a source of trouble.
186 TSE
I thought you had given up the booze?
Tim, you may be right, or you may be wrong on this issue. I think Mr Dancer, summed it up perfectly, up thread @ 32
This might just be me being a big single fellow, but I couldn’t give a damn about this policy. I don’t mind I dislike it, as that would indicate some sort of concern or interest. I find it to be irrelevant.
I’m far more concerned with the big economic questions and Defence. Oh, and kicking Brown out.
186. “We’re going to miss Gordon Brown when he’s gone”
Not if we aim carefully.
189 - I’m now only drinking on days that end in “y”
Today is a one off, had some good news today, which deserves celebrating.
191 - I have really bad aim, as countless ex’s will tell you.
On topic - I think the Tories have the right policy but the wrong message. They are being attacked on the basis of discriminating against single parents, whereas the current system discriminates against marriage. If you want any benefits, your household income is taken into account, not your personal income. This means there is an incentive implicit in the system to stay separated - two lots of housing allowance, dole, income support, etc.
The tories’ message should be that they are removing the bias already inherent in the system.
157. How silly they will all look when Cameron gets a governable majority of 20-30.
157. Mori GE prediction:
“Ipsos Mori called an even closer result: 36% for the Conservatives and 32% for Labour - which if it happened would leave Gordon Brown clinging on as a minority prime minister.”
Mike S I think you might be right that the marriage policy will not affect the vote that much. I am vehemently opposed to social engineering in whatever form, and from what I have read of Cameron’s proposal, I don’t like it one bit. I am married (albeit living in the States) so my objection is not based on personal benefit/loss. But the rest of the political agenda is just that much more important to me, as is getting rid of Brown and the disaster that is Labour. I oppose this policy, but if the Tories keep it, it will not change my vote from Tory to anything else, let alone from Tory to Labour.
190 - “I’m far more concerned with the big economic questions and Defence. Oh, and kicking Brown out”
And that is all that the GE will boil down to, the rest is just fluff. But that is why this policy will be latched onto and rung by the neck - as with all the other memes tim has run with , it gives hope to the poor sods.
oldnat January 21st, 2010 at 9:12 pm
Thanks for the link oldnat, is Alex S always so shouty ?
marbles at 139 has the key to it: present it, emphasise it and re-emphasise it as trying to go some way to levelling the playing field for marriage. Repeat again and again that the current tax-and-benefit system penalises couples living together such as in marriage, so just when it would be most beneficial (for them as well as for the child) to stay together - from a child’s birth to age about 6 - and it is hardest for the mother to work, the system invokes some financial pressure on them to break up (or stay apart if they were not cohabiting at the birth).
Of course, one single influence won’t be the overwhelming factor, but adding a few straws to an overloaded camel’s back can be the critical factor. Why should marriage be penalised?
If they simply respond to the questions with some details of how much better off a couple are that start apart and don’t come together against a married couple in the same circumstance and reflect the question back as “why should marriage be penalised? Isn’t that social engineering?”, most of the potential of the Labour attack will be removed.
As an aside, I do feel that it should be restricted to couples with young children, and co-habiting couples should get the break as well (essentially, if they have to tick the boxes on the Tax Credit form that the father is living with them, then they get the break - as simple as that).
191 - and I have no doubt that Martin Day can find you a toilet with Brown’s face in the appropriate location
195. Kellner’s been holding court again with all his little journo groupies no doubt…..
199 Kristin
Fraid so!
203 - shame that, because it distracts a bit from his message.
202 - I think YouGov called the election for the Tories
176 - Marquee Mark.
Ironically I’m going to benefit from all of Camerons tax changes.
On saturday I’m going for dinner at two of our friends house, policeman and research scientist, two kids, been together 9 years, not married, combined income about 55k.
They are the people Cameron and Osborne are going to screw to benefit me and its wrong, just plain wrong.
202. Kellners going for a Conservative majority (just) apparently its NOP (I thought they stopped UK polling years ago?) that think it will be Cameron by a minority and MORI that think Brown will be able to hold on as a minority PM.
194, RandomStat - very well put. If “household income” is the important thing (which it seems to be in the benefit system) then surely “household income” should be what is taxed, rather than individual income?
197. TimT
I suppose you don’t like the immigration policies of Labour either because they are also social engineering nor the laws banning smoking in all buildings nor alcohol and tobacco taxes. They are all social engineering. Only those I mention are far more extreme forms than a marriage incentive in the tax system.
Off topic. Interesting statistic cited by one of the political pundits on US TV last night.
The money from the US stimulus and the bail out packages would have financed a one year tax holiday on all federal income, corporation, capital gains, inheritance and sales taxes!!!!
185 - Whilst I loved Andy Serkis as Ian Dury, Alfred Molina was so much better in An Education.
Bill Clinton appearing in New York on Haiti. He’s still got the knack of sounding he knows what he’s talking about rather than just reading a script.
Really so who’s calling it as a hung Parliament?
197 I am married (albeit living in the States)
just wait until the missus sees that one
Re the pollsters conference
Refining methodology is one thing, but if they are extrapolating the polling to a GE result via constituencies, are they still locked into UNS?
Demonstrably, Scotland doesn’t fit into such a theory, and it seems unlikely that it applies across England either.
201 everyne can do this now..
http://www.find-me-a-gift.co.uk/gordon-brown-toilet-roll-toilet-paper-50-million-pound-toilet-roll.html
206 tim, if you feel that strongly, give the money back to HMG or give it to your ‘friends’. Not that I think you really have any.
Is this the worst campaign video ever?
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2010/01/is-this-the-worst-campaign-video-ever.html
mr smithson,you should enjoy this,it’s from a green party candidate
Surely the important point about the Conservative marriage tax proposals are that they are something that David Cameron actually believes in, and hasn’t got from a focus group.
Is there anything that Gordon Brown actually believes in, in any of Labour’s policies?
211 - Molina was fantastic, always is.
But e’re talking betting and he hasn’t been nominated.
Serkis is down to 6/1 from 8’s
of course it was Mori that showed the 6% lead and started the whole hung parliament narrative..
Just back from a school governors meeting - it is astonishing how unpopular Ed Balls is within the education sector it seems… dictats on high, dysfunctional, box ticking and form filling
that’s on my little sample anyway.
213. NOP and MORI. Remember a “Hung parliament” just means no overall majority. That ranges from anything from a minority Labour government, through to a real hung parliament with both Labour and Tories almost equal on seats, thorough to a minority Tory government.
216 - What do Star Trek and toilet paper have in common?
they both fight the Klingons.
- and the way Gordon is clinging on now……
216. The danger is that Gordo already has a roll and thinks he can use it to fund his latest cunning plan
220 - He should have been nominated, which makes me wonder if there can be any value on me putting money based on the decisions of people who know the square root of bugger all.
145 Anastasis, you argue cogently. Actually, however, gays went to the trouble of fighting for the right to enter civil partnerships. Why would they do that, then?
All this talk of Hung Parliaments will have Rod appearing in 5….4….3….2…..1…..
A bad time for American democracy. As it looks like universal healthcare could collapse under the lies of the insurance industry, the Supreme Court rules that corporations can flood the democratic process with unlimited cash:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f17287a0-06aa-11df-b426-00144feabdc0.html
Government of the corrupt, for capital, by the special interests.
jsfl 209 Tobacco smoking is a health and safety issue, marriage is not. I am for open immigration for those who can contribute to the economy to the extent that our society can absorb them. I think sin taxes are intrinsically unfair and regressive. And, yes, I’m a Tory precisely because I don’t believe government belongs in our pocketbooks or our bedrooms. To me, the marriage incentive is contrary to true conservative values, as would be any incentive to remain single, or any incentive to have more children.
224 - I remember when I achieved proper Star Trek geekiness, it was back in 1995 when they started calling John Redwood the Vulcan.
I said, no, he’s more of a Romulan.
My logic, was Vulcans would support the Federation/EU, whilst the Romulans would be Eurosceptic.
219 - Surely the important point about the Conservative marriage tax proposals are that they are something that David Cameron actually believes in, and hasn’t got from a focus group.
Thats why it was important when he fell apart on initial questioning.
If he’s shallow on this?
O/T got a call from a buddy saying I absolutely must see this dvd about 9/11…
What’s it about? I ask
- about the collapse of 7 WTC on 9/11 and how it was deliberately exploded by elements of the government trying to ensure that the US would fight Islam. See 7 WTC has a trapezoid foot print, important becaus…..
It’s called “9/11 blueprint for truth”. Anyone know much about this - it sounds like classic conspiracy whack job stuff. It’s downloading as I type.
228 - But swingback shows the Tories will achieve a majority. Hung parliament is nonsense
Before the Tories achieved a 16.9% Swing, Rod said
My swing benchmarks for the Tories are:
Less than 5%: disastrous, Labour are probably on course for a small overall majority next time, and the opinion polls are not telling a true story.
5%-10%: Encouranging, but the Tories should be doing better still. A hung parliament with Labour the largest party is most likely.
10%-15%: Very good- a hung parliament with the Tories as largest party is most likely.
Greater than 15%: Excellent- the Tories probably are on course for an overall majority
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/04/30/will-it-be-all-change-at-crewe-on-may-22nd/#comment-648917
225 - Given Gordo’s plans, even 100 rolls is just a - ahem - flash in the pan
223. So its the two companies that haven’t got a regular contract is it? That’s convenient.
Incidentally, if you take those two out of the equation does it suggest that the Conservatives would have a majority?
OT given the feeling that Obama has hit a rough patch there may be renewed interest in the latest PPP poll on the potential GOP slate of candiates.
The poll is out tromorrow but the headlines appear to be:
The Huck is holding firm despite recent controversies
Palin remains as relatively weak on the popularity stakes.
Again I stress, shes a no for the GOP and enough of them know it. Im sure there are those who like to talk up their chances but thats because they want have this caricature of the GOP and hope the party will live up to it.
It wont.
233-TimB-If you don’t want to wait to download, you can see it here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4617650616903609314#
234. Rod makes his theory up as he goes along, constantly moving the goal posts as the Tories reach and pass each of his designated benchmarks.
233 - I think we can play bingo with those sorts of DVD’s
I) The Jews Did it
II) The Oil Companies did it
III) Bush is a puppet of the House of Saud
IV) Dick Cheney is the antichrist
V) Those bloody jews at it again
VI) The Military Industry complex did it
VII) Bush is Satan’s pageboy
VIII) It’s an Old Etonian Conspiracy
233 - Certainly whackjob, they have their own film festival.
http://www.ae911truth.org/events/blueprint.php
Best actor-George Bush.
Best Supporting Actor - Osama Bin Laden.
236. It appears so, yes.
I wonder what NOP were even doing there? Maybe they are going to try and get back into the UK polling buisness?
tim,
Thanks for your reply yesterday on the Nuffield Report and targets.
I do have a couple of issues (inevitably):
Firstly, the contention that the crucial difference between the English NHS and the devolved ones is the imposition of targets in the English NHS (and, by implication, the absence of them in the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish ones). Posters from Scotland and Wales have stated that there certainly are targets in those NHSs.
Secondly, do you have access to a full copy of the report? I hate trying to comment on second-hand reports of reports, such as in the BBC page. The BMJ have the report, but I don’t have any access at this time. If you do have a copy, I’d genuinely appreciate it if you’re able to forward it to me (legally). As well as the editorial coment in yesterday’s BMJ responding to it (also not available to me).
The difference between the 4 NHS systems is apparently:
England - “markets and performance management”
Scotland - “Cooperative medical professionalism”
Wales - “Localism and public health”
Northern Ireland - “Permissive managerialism”
… and I’m not completely certain that I appreciate exactly what each of those means :). The BMJ editorial also seems to start to critices the report on the grounds of “… the report focuses mostly on input and process rather than outcome measures”.
In essence, my unhappiness at “targets” is not partisan, but merely due to the implausible dichotomy of trying to set targets that are crude and fixed enough to be practically measurable and simultaneously fine and flexible enough to be of sensible utility. In my experience, a lot of the time targets are set in order to provide the appearance of measuring something, whether useful or not (I remember once being told to come up with 5 performance indicators for my section and on my reply “but there aren’t five things that we can control and need to measure” was told to just come up with something to keep the management happy).
Further, targets mean that people become good at specifically meeting them rather than what they are designed to support (i.e. from Chris A’s point some days ago which ran something like “patient spends 4 hours and 5 minutes in A&E with serious problem and is sent away fine and happy = failure. Patient spends 3 hours and 55 minutes in A&E and dies = success”. The target was obviously that no patient spend more than 4 hours in A&E. I’ve heard of other such examples with people moved on from some departments with minutes to go and then returned - target met).
I do, however, fully understand the mindset that generated the target in the first place - the need for accountability and feedback to provide decent public services with value for money. The element of the Tory philosophy that underlines their stance at the moment that most attracts me is their way of replacing that accountability and feedback with a local loop instead of a centralised loop - schools accountable to the parents by effective independence (hell, it works for private schools, yes? And in Sweden). Directly elected police chiefs. That kind of thing. The “Direct Democracy” theme.
re 232. Maybe Dave should follow your leader - whenever he is under pressure he simply fibs. That guy Brown cannot do the truth - the reason why nobody trusts him.
197. Gabble
You and your uphill gardner friend Tim, can hang on to any little shred of belief for a “Hung Parliament”
However Labour are going to get crushed. You and Tim will then be taken away screaming in your straightjackets, to spend your miserable little lives, locked up in the Tower of London with Gurning Gordon and Ed Ballseditup!
You will be forced to watch PM Dave Fox Hunting, shooting and playing Polo with Obahma!
4 Losers all locked up together!
238, 240, 241 - Thanks but I don’t want to waste 2 hours of my life watching it - so I’m putting on my iPod to watch during my daily 45 minutes of cardio at the gym.
Hopefully it’ll take my mind off the pain - which my trainer tells me is weakness leaving the body
The range of predictions seems entirely reasonable.I do,however, remain concerned that so many commentators appear to simply assume that the largest party gets to form a minority Government because this is simply not so! Certainly if Cameron gets 316 seats he would form such a Government but if he only gets to 300 with Brown on - say - 270 he would ,at the very least , have to wait a while before being given the chance.
230 TimT, ISTR reading that being married is beneficial for men’s health but detrimental for women’s health.
Elf’n'Safety, legislate on that one then!
242 - Wasn’t NOP the most accurate pollster at the 2005 GE?
246 - The JFK assassination and all the conspiracy theories has been a hobby of mine for many many years.
One load of nutters is enough.
Was the pollsters event mentioned above the one attended by our own Mike S ? If so MIke are you doing a thread on it ?
230 TimT
I am for open immigration for those who can contribute to the economy to the extent that our society can absorb them.
But thats not open immigration. You see we all favour a certain level of social engineering. I haven’t got time to debate every single aspect of social engineering that is going on but marriage is one of the least offensive I can think of.
244 - Mike,
You know my view of Brown and I know your view that this wasn’t going to be a story.
But I’m afraid that Camerons flapping over something he wants to tell us is at his core makes it a story.
And three weeks later he can’t close it down.
Every Conservative shadow minister on the media is tangled up in knots over it.
249. I’ve just been looking at that. NOP’s last UK polls were during the 2005 general election and their final poll did indeed get the result spot on.
Mike, are NOP about to make a return to British polling?
233 TimB Check out the wikipedia entry which discounts the conspiracy theory of controlled explosions (no sound or windows blasting out) and the deliberately place accelerant theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center
On August 21, 2008, NIST released its draft report on the causes of the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, beginning a period for public comments.[32] In its investigation, NIST utilized ANSYS to model events leading up to collapse initiation and LS-DYNA models to simulate the global response to the initiating events.[44] NIST determined that diesel fuel did not play an important role, nor did the structural damage from the collapse of the twin towers. But the lack of water to fight the fire was an important factor. The fires burned out of control during the afternoon, including on floor 13, where a critical interior column buckled. With the buckling of that column, adjacent columns also failed along with the floor structure above. This triggered a vertical progression of floor failures to the roof. The collapse then progressed east-to-west across the structure, and ultimately the entire structure collapsed. The fires, fueled by office contents, along with the lack of water, were the key reasons for the collapse.[45]
,,,]
The collapse of 7 World Trade Center is remarkable because it was the first known instance of a tall building collapsing primarily as a result of uncontrolled fires.[54]
World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories say that the building collapses on September 11, including that of building seven, were the result of controlled demolition.[55][56][57][58] The draft NIST report rejected this hypothesis, as the window breakages and blast sound that would have occurred if explosives were used were not observed.[59] The use of thermate instead of explosives is discarded by NIST on the basis that it is unlikely the necessary 100 pounds of thermate for each steel column could have been planted without being discovered.[60]
242. Didn’t they do a one off for the last GE and actually came pretty close?
243 Andy Cooke
Look at the Nuffield Report if you like, but they have already accepted that they overestimated the number of doctors in Scotland by 27%!
The entire report is, therefore, worthless trash.
239 - you mean like the way Gordo’s definition of the economic cycle kept changing?
196. Gabble
If you lived in Australia they probably call you a ‘Dag’ because you keep ‘clinging on’ no matter what.
233 - “it sounds like classic conspiracy whack job stuff”
If it sounds like it, then it probably is. I remember shortly after 9/11 having a conversation with one of these propeller heads who argued that because temperatures inside the towers had only reached ‘X’ and steel required ’X+’ in order to melt, then it had to be a Government Conspiracy and Bush was to blame.
The conversation got rather heated (no pun intended) when I pointed out that tensile strength would have been lost at well below ‘X’ the more likely reason for the collapse.
Haven’t spoken to my granny since then, silly mo.
re 254. NOP, or GFK-NOP as they are now known, will be playing a big part in the election with the exit poll that’s been commissioned by all the TV news organisations.
In 2005 the firm got perfect scores as their boss reminded us all at the polling conference yesterday.
249, 254,
It’s the Independent law: The pollster hired by the Independent newspaper will get the closest result at the election, after which they will be fired (always works with an incumbent Labour Government).
2001: The Independent used Rasmussen, got closest, and fired them.
2005: The Independent used NOP, got it spot on, and fired them.
2010: The Independent use ComRes …
253. The only one I’ve ever met/heard/read that seems remotely excited about it is you Tim.
Cameron messed up. And will do so again through the election. As will Brown. As will Clegg. As will many leading politicians. Thats the nature of general elections. Thats why the media loves elections and are constantly harping on about having them, while politicians do what they can to avoid them (unless they are absolutely guaranteed to win big, then they can be tempted to a year early)
The way you whitter on anyone would think no other politician has ever messed up during an election campaign.
248 AnneGP I’m sure my wife agrees with that research!
256, oldnat.
Agreed - but I’d still like to see what data they used and how they performed their analysis if possible - there might be useful data in there.
260 Mike - But exit polls are somewhat different from random samples?
In any case didn’t the Indy ditch them anyway. Why was that?
260. Mike, why are the TV companies using the one pollster that hasn’t done a poll in the UK since 2005? Are they the only “face to face” pollster left?
By the way - very belated congratulations to David Roe on his engagement (I’m always behind on threads these days - too much Real Life)
If anyone fancies a bet on the Marriage Tax issue, I’ll bet £25 at evens that Lib Dem voters are more against it than Labour voters.
243 - Andy.
I’ll reply when tomorrow OK.
251 Yes, you can’t avoid all social engineering. But if a nation offers a social safety net, you cannot avoid but have some controls on immigration. This marriage thing is avoidable and gratuitous.
LOL
Adverts are getting worse.
Fiona Phillips is expecting us to believe everyone keeps asking her whether cheap anti-ageing creams are worth buying.
I wonder what she tells Gordy
255 - TimT - Thanks for that. I have to admit that until today I had not heard about this whole 7WTC business.
On one level I’m curious to see what it says - it looks like a film of a presentation by an architect.
As I said above, I’ve made a hobby out of all the JFK conspiracy theories, so I’m fairly skeptical on these things.
252. tim, why does Cameron need to shut this story down? The Tories have stated their intention to recognise marriage in the tax system, not particuarly clearly admittedly, but the principle is clear. Labour have been going frantic over it and sounding even more shrill, hectoring and contradictory. One minute they recognise that they havent done enough for families and the next they are screaming that the Tories hate anyone who isn’t married. Plus, it seems to be pushing the Mail decidedly into Cameron’s corner which frees him up from having to cover his core vote.
Answer to the thread question is yes if the Cameroons can’t make the case right - basically they don’t seem to have any idea that there’s a connection between this and a woman on a “Lord of the Flies” estate up north driving her ESN daughter to a beauty spot and setting fire to the car.
Seeing as they appear to be closet guardianistas pretending to be something else they should simply focus on attacking the incentives to split up that are built into the benefit system as they’ll probably find that easier.
268, tim - cheers.
OT I hope everyone is patched
Microsoft released an emergency security update for all versions of Internet Explorer on Thursday as attacks exploiting a critical vulnerability in the widely used browser spread to hundreds of websites.
The patch fixing the IE vulnerability used to penetrate the defenses of Google and other large companies came as anti-virus provider Symantec said the flaw was being exploited on “hundreds of websites.” While some of the sites hosting the attacks were free services that had been co-opted, others appeared to be domains of legitimate companies that had been compromised.
When ever i have looked at the 9/11 Conspiracy stuff, the points that the advocates point out don’t even really support what they say. From extra tanks on the underside of certain planes to missiles fired instead of planes, it all looks ridiculous to me.
I have had a great idea for a Tory poster in Lib Dem seats:
It is called The Fugitive and features a picture of Michael Brown running away and mention of his crimes and donations and a photoshopped picture with Michael Browns head on it:
http://www.traileraddict.com/content/warner-bros-pictures/fugitive.jpg
268. Lib Dem activists almost certainly: Lib Dem voters in the south-west? probably not and its the voters not the activists who Cameron needs.
Gordon Brown will appear in front of an official Iraq war inquiry before the next election, according to Sky sources.
271 - So who did really shoot JFK?
It’s been really bugging me
It’s the kids.
Discriminating in favour of rich kids to the detriment of poor kids is just not going to cut it.
Cameron wants to know ‘Is your child legit?’. Have they considered campaigning under the slogan ‘Back to Bastards’?
272. “why does Cameron need to shut this story down?”
He doesn’t. See
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2010/01/21/is-labour-right-to-attack-on-marriage-policy/comment-page-3/#comment-1394887
269. You can justify anything if you want to…..
275 Scott P I was patched at the last laptop purchase. Switched to Apple and Safari.
Yeah, I know it comes across as smug. 
Whether folks like the marriage policy or not, I doubt anyone questions Cameron’s genuine belief in the importance of family.
What does Gordon believe in, apart from the sense of his own importance?
264 Andy Cooke
You can download Sheelah Connolly’s embarassment here
http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/members/download.aspx?f=/ecomm/files/Four_Countries_Report.pdf
258. The Dag keeps hanging around until it’s cut off.
It is the wool around the sheep’s rear end which gets matted with excreta, rots and gets all covered in flies and maggots, which feed on the sheep’s living flesh.
Surely a fitting epithet for Mandelson, Brown and Bals - New Labour in 2010.
I see Timmy Thicket is offering another bet, has he paid out on the last one yet?
282 jsfl Sure you can. But I’d rather stick as close as is practicable to a conservative, small government philosophy.
David Cameron condemns Labour’s moral Failure
285. I know.
BBC: Gordon to appear at Chilcot Inquiry BEFORE the election.
287 Well thats certainly not traditional British conservatism then.
288 - Its a shame for Daves narrative that murder peaked in the late eighties in this country.
But hey, the guy clearly wants to use this case so much he couldn’t wait until the trial was over.
Wow. Brown could get torn apart by Chilcot.
What an idiot. He could have had this enquiry years ago, or had it beyond the election. Now he is going to have to testify going into an election.
283. TimT. I’ve been using a Mac since 1987
Once you go Mac, you never go back
I bet Gordo wishes he never came up with the idea of this Iraq inquiry now!
Thanks Andy.
Thanks to anyone who I haven’t yet thanked for their messages too
I’m only bothering for the tax break
it better be a big one. Engagement rings and weddings cost a FORTUNE 
Gordon Brown will appear in front of an official Iraq war inquiry before the next election, according to Sky sources.
by fitaloon January 21st, 2010 at 10:00 pm
Oh dear, as someone known for telling porkies that can’t be good for GB.
258, 285 “dag” is an old Derbyshire word taken up by the Aussies.
And yes, it is entirely apposite for this shitty tail-end of a Govt.
Gordon Brown and the Dag Parliament
290 - I noticed yesterday on the comment thread on PMQs that no one picked that up.
Sensible politics from Brown.
296 - David, please add my own congratulations. May you both have a long, happy and healthy life together.
297. Kristin January 21st, 2010 at 10:08 pm
Must mean a March election!
Yet again, the old Gordo short term tactics over long term strategy! Unfortunately, the panel have already shown that for the most part they are a load of wet lettuces that couldn’t ask a decent question if they tried (at least Gordo got that bit right). Still him and Tony Liar all before the election dragging up old painful history, not good for the bottom line.
299 - have to disagree with you there tim, to be fair he was in a no win situation. But he does lack credibility with a lot of people I’m afraid.
293 - If he can’t take the questioning then he deserves to be f*cked.
Whats the issue?
Maybe Chilcot will be different with comrade brown, but most of us thought Hutton would sort out Blair & Campbell and look what happened then
David Roe
Many congrats. Will you be composing your own Sun Headline for the wedding album???
298. Yep I think that works perfectly.
GORDON BROWN’S DAG PARLIAMENT
169 - Is Harman describing Labour in this portion from your lnik
“She suggested a Tory government would return Britain to a society that was ‘hierarchical and hide bound, where everyone knows their place, where you get on on the basis of your connections or because your face fits’.”
Mhhhh, Labour candidate selection……….
I would guess Browns appearence will be a damp squib. As will Blairs.
259 - the evidence is clear at this point that the team for 9/11 researched their target very carefully. If they had attached the Empire State Building, the damage would have been much less and the building would have survived without collpase due to the strong girder construction.
The WTC had a strong central core, then the floors were suspended on to the core, and the other end was attached to the outside skin, which was load bearing. It was a perfectly reasonable design, could withstand high wind speeds and sway, but excessive heat (such as burning Jet A) were never considered.
237 - Average GOP candidate favorables (as per pollster.com), but these are for all party supporters -
Palin 43/46 (favorable/unfavorable)
Romney 35/33
Huckabee 37/31
The latest (I think) Ras poll for just GOP voters showed the following.
Palin 76/21
Romney 73/19
Huckabee 78/17
Other questions -
“1* I know it’s a long way off, but suppose the 2012 Republican Presidential Primary were held in your state today. If you had a choice between Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee, Newt Gingrich, Haley Barbour and Tim Pawlenty, for whom would you vote?
25% Romney
24% Palin
22% Huckabee
14% Gingrich
1% Barbour
1% Pawlenty
6% Some other candidate
6% Not sure
2* Okay…regardless of who you would vote for, which candidate would you least like to see win the Republican nomination in 2012…. Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee, Newt Gingrich, Haley Barbour or Tim Pawlenty?
9% Romney
21% Palin
10% Huckabee
15% Gingrich
21% Barbour
15% Pawlenty
11% Not sure”
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/toplines/national_survey_toplines/july_2009/gop_july_6_2009
There isn’t any need to talk anyone up or down, just go by what the polls are saying.
303 - Its sensible.
Theres no way he’s going into the debates with Clegg in particular charging him with avoiding Chilcot.
I’m a Brown sceptic (Para Wing) but I’ve watched him since the Sun Letter thing and he’s changed.
If he comes a cropper then its his fault.
(but remember Dave falls apart at the tax altar)
308. Who is she kidding?
Labour are the epitome of nepotism and ‘networking’. FFS. Does she really think the rest of us are like Labour backbenchers (born yesterday)?
Floater January 21st, 2010 at 10:13 pm
Yes how is Mr Harman shaping up in Leyton and Wanstead these days?
305 - I’m sure Brown will just do what he does when he appears in front of that Select Committee, bluster away, droning on and on and on to every question, running down the clock from minute one. However, a) the press are going to be far more forensic with what he says and b) it is just bringing up bad news whatever he says. Still I think he will go for the bore draw, but I don’t think when he came up with his little scheme he ever thought he would be in the public hot seat before the election (remember he wanted it all in private to start with).
312,tim’s not on strike any more
(like he ever was )
264 Andy Cooke
You can read the full report via here
http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/members/download.aspx?f=/ecomm/files/Four_Countries_Report.pdf
312 - Talking of coming a cropper, you paid you that bet you lost yet?
test
ANyone got a link. Sky reporting that Conservatives will tax drivers to pay for marriage allowance. I’ve got to read this before I believe it……
you paid you -> you paid up
316. They always come running back, tail between their legs, in the end.
174 - Coldstone, truly you are a first class sh*t and of course a hypocrite.
imagine if those nasty tories had been in Government when he lost his job, would you go on this way?
Nope, thought not.
297 ‘Oh dear, as someone known for telling porkies that can’t be good for GB.’
Why should Brown be worried? He won’t be under oath. Campbell wasn’t.
Brown to give evidence to Iraq Enquiry BEFORE GE. ITV News
301 Martin “Must mean a March election!”
Call me a cynic, but of course tonight’s announcement is carefully worded. Gordo will appear before the election (on May 6th, unless he calls it for March 25th in which case there won’t be time. Shame.)
264 Andy Cooke
I’ve tried posting the link to you a couple of times, but the posts don’t appear. You can access the report via the “Nuffield Trust” website.
297 - yes Brown may well appear, but how much of his evidence will be in public?
- and to be honest, how much of a game changer will it be. Most people have made up their minds one way or the other about Labour at this point.
Feast away Labour - Cameron’s all yours if this is true……..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/conservative/7047828/Tory-tax-on-drivers-to-pay-for-marriage-allowance.html
306 - I’m considering it but I think that might be shockingly tacky. Though my colleagues may sort that out whatever!
324. I suspected it wasn’t a “Scoop”.
178 - “Your a vile piece of shit. Every bit of you belongs in the Labour party.”
well said that man!
Don’t let the bugger get you down.
5 more months max and this cess pit of a government consigned to the dustbin of history.
317 - No, as GOHF failed and although I’m prepared to entertain you occasionally on politics, about which you know little, I’m not prepared to do the same on betting, about which you know nothing.
273 MrJones, Answer to the thread question is yes if the Cameroons can’t make the case right - basically they don’t seem to have any idea that there’s a connection between this and a woman on a “Lord of the Flies” estate up north driving her ESN daughter to a beauty spot and setting fire to the car.
What connection do you see?
I see the connection this way:
1. Broken society >>> vulnerable people + feral youths + over-burdened local authorities >>> tragedy for vulnerable people.
2. Try to mend broken society a bit >>> fewer vulnerable people + fewer feral youths + less over-burdened local authorities >>> fewer tragedies for vulnerable people
328 - Motorists and air passengers face higher “green taxes” under Conservative plans to fund tax breaks for married couples, The Daily Telegraph can disclose
It’s idiotic. Are not the married couples these same drivers and travelers?
It makes about as much economic sense as governments spending money to ‘create jobs’.
When does Chilcott stop before the election campaign?
The statement was “continue to early February, when they will break for the general election”
Nothing scheduled for 28th Jan or in February.
331 That’s not very nice calling people like me ‘pieces of shit’.
Typical nasty Tory, 13 years out of power,hope it will be another 13-at least.
332 - He seemed convinced he didn’t fail. Will independent adjudication be required again? BTW, You do know I make most of my money from gambling don’t you.
I am not worried what the Labour party say as I think people have made their mines up who they are going to vote for, and as Brown is under 30% he has no chance.
If he comes over on Chilcot like Straw did today he will down to 25%.
Scott P January 21st, 2010 at 10:21 pm
I wont bet on it though!
Anyone who tries second guessing election timing with Brown is on a sticky wicket. I truely believe Gordon Brown to be barking mad, absolutly as mad as a brush or Tom Baker playing the sea captain in Black Adder the second! No doubt Captain Brown has been swigging his own urine from his first day in number 10 because he liked the taste!
What the hell are the Tories on?
Green taxes have a bad enough name as it is.
Personally I don’t mind “green taxes” as long as the politicians are up front about it.
332 tim after your stunt earlier, the only thing anyone needs to know about betting is that you will try your damned hardest to wriggle out of settling wagers.
334 It’s as dumb as that supermarket car park tax debacle. I thought we’d got rid of all this nonsense when Gummer said he was standing down but clearly not.
326, oldnat - Cheers. Heading across now.
310 Tim B, is that really so? I’d understood that the reason so many people were able to escape was quite simply that what happened had been more or less envisaged and catered for under worst-case scenario.
Embarrassment for Brown as major report reveals inequality has increased under Labour
The gap between rich and poor has widened under Labour, a major new Government report will find next week.
The 450-page study by the National Equality Panel is expected to report that the billions of pounds poured into extra benefits, tax credits and anti-poverty drives over the last 12 years have failed to reverse the rise in inequality.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245080/Embarrassment-Brown-major-report-reveals-inequality-increased-Labour.html#ixzz0dHxLjvUE
336. Valleyboy - if you want to be associated with Coldstone by all means because he’s a cruel vindictive piece of work and proves that the true nasty party are Labour……..
the bulk of the questions lined up are not about his time as Chancellor but as Prime Minister. It was for this very reason that the committee thought it would be difficult to question him before the election - no other political witness remains in the post that they held in relation to Iraq.
From 2007, Brown clearly had a new approach to that of Blair. He wanted to get the troops out as quickly as possible, almost to the point where the US took great offence. The problems with the surge in violence in the South are sure to form key planks of the questions to Brown as a result.
Chilcot and co. will also want to know whether it was wise to finally pullout when we did or whether the deployment to Afghanistan was a key factor. (Hoon this week suggested he opposed the very idea of Blair’s Afghan deployment, simply because the military were worried about the overstretch effect on soldiers and their families.).
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2010/01/what-chilcot-may-ask-brown.html
On a previous thread a poster called “boy blue” said that they had seen the Cameron poster in Sintellins, at the risk of sounding like Yvette from Most Haunted, are you with us?
If so, knock twice and say something rude.
311- I have no idea who the GOP nominee will be in 2012, and these sorts of polls don’t really tell us much given how far off the primaries are (although, astonishingly, they are actually less than two years away!). While Huckabee and Pawlenty seem the least problematic, none of them jumps off the page as an obvious or inspiring choice. Frankly, I’m hoping somebody else emerges who can give Republicans and independents something to vote for, rather than merely voting against Obama.
O/T There’s a new opinion poll out tonight in Ireland which shows FF up slightly but still down in third place
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0121/poll.html
FG 32% (+1)
Lab 24% (-1)
FF 22% (+1)
SF 8% (-1)
Grn 3% (-1)
OTH/IND 11% (N/C)
Good news for the government is that it’s aapproval rating has risen 5% in a month to all of 19%! The recent draconian budget has been well received, except by the public sector workers. The mood I get from people in the Republic is that they want the current government to continue for it’s full term and so sort out the mess that FF caused, but when the election eventually comes Fianna Fail will be slaughtered!!
341. GIN. The trouble is those aren’t ‘green taxes’. It’s just a cheap con to screw more tax out of people (just as alcohol and tobacco taxes were/are).
351. That should be 2 point increase for FF.
Just a word of caution on the Telegraph splash. It says as part of wide range of options under consideration and the piece is written by Andrew Porter.
Re 353. 341. And on the back of it it will allow the oil companies to sneak a price rise in on the back of it (as they always do).
Andrew Porter and Robert Winnett were both linked to Damian Mcbride and Labour spinmerchamts. Porter wrote the Labourgraph article which tried to block the McBrideSmeargate stuff and Winnett was told by McBride about the availability of the Expenses disc which led to its acquisition by the paper.
So no surprise about the “Tory tax cr*p article”.
From Winnett’s book on the expenses scandal.
“Robert Winnett, the paper’s deputy political editor, first learnt from Gordon Brown’s controversial aide Damian McBride, that a disk containing details of every MP’s expense claims may have been obtained by a whistleblower.”
353. Of course. Thats what governments do. As long as they are upfront about it I can’t see the problem. I’m resigned to the fact that I’m going to pay a LOT more tax, in all sorts of ways, over the next few years to pay for Labours recession. And not only that, but many of the services the government provides are going to be cut as well. Thats it. Thats the future. Its a b*tch. But take heart, the people that brought this upon us will soon be thrown on the scrap heap of history. And in fve or ten years, maybe things will be going well enough to start getting some tax cuts. Maybe.
Exclusive – Tory Radio has Brown’s script for the Chilcott Inquiry
1) Smile.
2) Listen to question.
3) State that was a decision taken by the previous Prime Minister.
4) Return to Number 1.
Just completed a YouGov with voting intention and certainty to vote questions.
I thought Brown said it was Chilcots decision as to when he was called. Can’t really take credit now [as tim suggests] otherwise it would suggest he had lied previously and it was always in his power all along.
“…shadow cabinet minister said: “We could reintroduce the fuel-duty escalator…”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/conservative/7047828/Tory-tax-on-drivers-to-pay-for-marriage-allowance.html
…to give more money to the wealthy!!!
tories = meltdown
329
I’ve just seen that! Hey is Dave back on the coke? No wonder he’s looking florid.
357. TC - It doesn’t matter whether its linked or not to the marriage thing and it doesn’t matter that it comes from a dubious source if the Conservatives try the ‘green tax’ bollocks they are f*cking stupid.
I cannot stand Liam Byrne, he’s like watching a smugathon.
360 - Given your judgement/obsession about Bob Ainsworth, I guess thats quite a deep analysis.
360 fitaloon Of course Brown will be subjected to a brutal savaging by the 4 dead sheep that make up the Chilcot team….
This team is one that the PM picked himself…..
Just imagine if all people accused of crimes were allowed to pick the judge the prosecutors and the jury?
Stalinesque.
jsfl this is a piece of Labour spin designed to draw blood (amongst its Tory readers) which the 2 Labour supporting hacks are running with.
359. Fuel taxes undermine business and cause inflation and because people don’t have much of a choice about paying them they drive the pressure for further inflation.
They will increase all travel costs, food costs etc etc etc. They are about the worst taxes you can increase with a shaky economy. Better off wahcking up VAT on goods other than essentials because at least people will have a choice and it will not impact essentials.
Andrew Roberts sums it up.
368. TC well where is the CCHQ spin management team to denounce this then?
346 - going from memory, all the floor parts had been treated on the underside to resist heat with some sort of spray on coating. The force of the impact and explosion blew this off several of the floors. The impact also compromised the central core, as well as the load bearing outside skin, so that people from the floors above were trapped by the blaze.
The burning fuel gradually heated up and weakend the steel and reinforced concrete floor sections until eventually one floor collapsed ont the one beneath, which was also weakened, and then when several floors crashed, it began a pancake collapse, which is why the floors above the crash location did not collapse immediately when the buildings pancaked.
It’s more complex than that but that is basically it, I think.
371 - If you remember during the expenses scandal, the Telegraph were very good at ignoring responses they didn’t like, due to not fitting their scoop of the day.
334 Society needs glue. Prosperity provides glue of it’s own so you can take away all the traditional structures and traditional morality and still get by but in poorer areas you end up with chavistan - and chavistan is Lord of the Flies.
Traditional structures and morality might not have been or be perfect but they provided the glue. Guardian readers, especially in the media, attacked those structures because the structures were imperfect or because they felt excluded. Cultural marxists attacked them because they knew it would destroy society. But if you’re going to take away one type of glue you have to replace it with something else not just nothing.
It’s like smacking. Media pressure against smacking and parental discipline since the 60s has had a very destructive effect. However you watch something like Supernanny and her naughty step and there’s a workable alternative. So either you replace one type of glue with another or you go back to the old way, perfect or not and stick guardian readers in a ****ing gulag where they can’t do any more harm or thirdly you have endless stories like the woman setting fire to her and her kid as the only way out of the nightmare guardian readers created for the areas they don’t live in.
Good night all.
Bloody hell, a panel on QT that doesn’t apologise for removing genocidal dictators.
jsfl January 21st, 2010 at 10:45 pm “368. TC well where is the CCHQ spin management team to denounce this then?”
The story has only just come out but the Conservative press operation is frankly not very good. I believe that the return of Hilton has weakened the influence of Andy Coulson. There is a lack of a “common touch”.
Damian Green Arrest: Plot Thickens
http://blogs.news.sky.com/boultonandco/Post:7ba62cce-dc52-4898-86c5-b5af00fa754a
While it must be comforting for Labour supporters to see the government talking about policy for a change, it must also be quite alarming that they seem to be responding to Cameron’s moves rather than making their own. They have completely lost the initiative. While it’s normal for a struggling party to give up on some policy areas, Labour seem to have given up on all of them.
371. Oracle it doesn’t really matter that much to me because I’ve already left the party. The only question I’ve got is whether they get my vote……
377. Indeed Hilton is back and doesn’t it show….
FFS Liam Byrne looks like Roosevelt next to Spelmans marriage nonsense.
tim
Have you briefed your concrete cows to speak against Dave’s Marriage Tax Relief proposals?
Not so much a cast-iron guarantee and a promise set in concrete.
tim welches on a bet? again. serial welcher tim?
I thought Mr Days “piece of shit comment” was aimed at tim, I forgot Coldstone inhabits this thread as well.
382.
Liam Byrne looks like a smug, irritating tit who has wrecked the UK economy and won’t apologise for it.
371 Jumping on rubbish can just add fuel and play into their hands. It will pass in a day.
Ignoring is sometimes the best reaction [eg see tim].
380 - TBH, Not really sure which post you are replying to.
My point really was that when I read something by the likes of Porter in the Telegraph these days, I take it with a large pinch of salt and wait and see if it develops into something more. If it is as reported, I think the Tories are nuts, but until I hear more about it from other sources I doubt I will believe it much more than if it was written in the Mirror.
351 - Pawlenty seems to generate a real dislike in many quarters, don’t quite see why myself but he polls very weakly.
383 - How many lives does a Spelman have?
Sorry to bore you all - noticed a small error in the totalpolitics guide to the 2010 election.
On page 55 it says the only MPs elected in their 20s in 2005 were Jo Swinson, Sarah Teather and David Lammy.
David Lammy was born in 1972, and Sarah Teather in 1974.
Dan Rogerson was 29 at the time of the 2005 election however.
Excellent book in the main!
Yes Tim, and what’s so great about Labour?
Probably already posted, but in case..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2010/jan/21/ed-miliband-labour-leadership [Obviously the Staggers has the full story but it is an a rather unwieldy format, The Graun has it 'bite-size']
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/foreign-policy/brown-to-appear-in-front-of-iraq-inquiry-before-election-$1354997.htm
He probably didn’t have much choice, but Gordon Brown, before Chilcot, before the election - Anything Could Happen…
Cracking show this QT.
@Spelman - stop crapping on about benefits of marriage! It gives the idiots a chance to crap on about “privileging married couples”!
Stop DISINCENTIVISING marriage/civil partnership.
FFS Liam Byrne looks like Zippy
Caroline is useless. This policy is in no way justified. A cash incentive to keep families together? This is the kind of tax policy that a mere novice would dream up on a schoolyard.
395 - Talking about Zippy, the unaired Rainbow show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOrDgXE8QHE
Maddeley gets it right.
It’s an aspirational elected slogan not a costed tax policy.
”Bourgeois marriage is, in reality, a system of wives in common and thus, at the most, what the Communists might possibly be reproached with is that they desire to introduce, in substitution for a hypocritically concealed, an openly legalized system of free love.
For the rest, it is self-evident that the abolition of the present system of production must bring with it the abolition of free love springing from that system, i.e., of prostitution both public and
private.”
The Communist Manifesto, Marx and Engels.
Wasn’t that quote regurgitated last week?
Was David Dimbleby having a stroke when quoting Ken Clarke?
410 TSE
A stroke?
Front Pages,
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Fridays-Papers—Newspaper-Front-Pages-Friday-January-22-2010/Media-Gallery/201001315533247?lpos=UK_News_Left_Promo_Region_0&lid=GALLERY_15533247_Fridays_Papers_-_Newspaper_Front_Pages_Friday%2C_January_22%2C_2010
Perhaps surprisingly that marriage section went fairly well for the Conservatives.
386. SallyC. Thats if you don’t believe there isn’t some smoke kicking around. Unfortunately, I do. Cameron’s already proved not to be totally trustworthy on a number of issues.
402 - A stroke as in a health problem.
Not like the 3 old ladies who were sat on a park bench, when a man flashed at them.
The first old lady had a major stroke, the 2nd old lady had a minor stroke, the 3rd old lady would have had a stroke, but her little arms just couldnt reah.
396 - If any Tory can explain
a.The marriage tax policy.
b.Why Caroline Spelman is appearing more ofte that Sayeeda Warsi.
c.Why Camaron has left ministers dangling on the media after his initial mistake
406 - reah = reach.
Maybe I’m adding two and two and making five, but the marriage question used Labour’s term ’social engineering’ and the comments used their attack line ‘back to basics’ - are Labour ‘engineering’ the audience?
334 (cont) Shorter and less impulsive answer to your question, yes - and a lot of it is marginal improvements, even a 1% improvement still adds up to a lot less tragedies.
404. The Daily Telegraph front page:
“Tory tax on drivers to pay for marriage allowance”
That’s gotta hurt.
”Abolition of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.
On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among proletarians, and in public prostitution.”
The Communist Manifesto, Marx and Engels.
411 - Oh do keep up. The article was written by Damian McBride’s mates.
411. Gabble for once I agree it likely will.
And with that I’m calling it a day.
Toodle Pip!
383 - Seth.
Perhaps the Rees Mogg adult nanny should look after Spelman.
marbles January 21st, 2010 at 10:40 pm
Liam has made me laugh my head off twice this evening and i even popped out to the local liberal club for some shandies!
To drink at home! 
Liams “An english persons home is their castle” or whatever the Politically Correct term is cracked me laughing!
Madelie looks as those he is a bit too close to the Blarites for his own good. No doubt he will become a Labour MP next?!
407 tim
a. Already answered. See http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2010/01/20/the-british-polling-council-gets-into-election-mode/#comment-1393731 . Tim B’s additional comment a few posts later should be incorporated.
b. I have seen Warsi twice on QT within last year. Same number as Spelman.
c. Dave is the puppet master.
Oh dear
Care authorities have refused to allow a High Court judge to read a confidential report into their handling of two young brothers who sadistically tortured two children and left them for dead.
The report, prompted by an horrific attack on two children aged 9 and 11 in Edlington, near Doncaster, is said to reveal numerous failings by care professionals who dealt with the brothers and their violent family over years. A copy was leaked to the BBC, which says the report details 31 occasions on which nine different agencies failed to take action over the brother’s offending behaviour before the Edlington attack last April.
The brothers, who were aged 10 and 11 when the assault took place, will be sentenced today after jointly admitting grievous bodily harm, robbery and causing a child to engage in sexual activity.
A request for a copy of the report was made by Sheffield Crown Court at the request of Peter Kelson, QC, representing the elder of the siblings, who had urged the judge, Mr Justice Keith, to read it before passing sentence.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6997640.ece
413 - Be careful with that argument.
Andy Coulsons mates want to run the country.
Good for Sarah Teather on the Hussein case.
411. Read the article carefully. If there is any talk of higher taxes it will be air passenger / other pollution taxes.
Sarah Teather has somehow become the voice of reason on the QT panel. Where the hell did they dig Andrew Roberts up from to bring back the castle doctrine.
398.”Maddeley gets it right.”
Yes, he got it totally right. While Labour sit picking over the details, getting ever more negative and desperate in their attacks to try and undermine the detail, the positive message in this policy remains intact. Did I hear Liam Byrne announcing the Treasury, oops, sorry, the Labour party will provide figures to claim that this policy is rubbish?
What’s an “adult nanny”?
Grandmama?
Sometimes I just don’t understand all this class war.
419 - I do hope the electorate of Brent, elect Sarah Teather, instead of that hideous creature, that is Dawn Butler.
421. Mike L: “If there is any talk of higher taxes it will be air passenger / other pollution taxes.”
…and the fuel escalator.
Will Con Home go after the Telegraph tomorrow?
Goodnight.
411 - Labour has just ensured that that Cameron’s ‘Broken Britan’ policy launch on Friday gets even more attention than it would have.
It is too much of a coincendence that this story turns up just as Brown is called to the Iraq Enquiry, they know is spin & smear.
366 - Imagine that, being obsessed with a political figure. I see you’ve restricted yourself to just a Rees-Mogg and a Spelman so far.
425. Gabble January 21st, 2010 at 11:14 pm
Remind me how are Labour going to deal with the worst PSBR or public borring since the second world war. Labour seem to be the do nothing party on that and they have delivered nothing through their incomptent borrowing!
”Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.”
The Communist Manifesto, Marx and Engels.
417 - Seth - Giving Spelman the same profile as Warsi is asign of very bad judgement.
But not as bad as putting Warsi in the Lords.
423 - Sorry, I should have made myself clear.
An adult nanny is one who either
a.Is an adult
b.Looks after the Rees Mogg adult.
419 Nah, vat burglar bloke ad it coming to im innit?
And nothing Teather says can make up for that dress or the wh samuel earrings. Spelman altogether a better class of totty.
429 - Not true, they have managed to deliver a more unequal society. Quite an achievement given the money they have spent supposedly reducing this.
418 Scott P
I find that report very odd. I know our legal system (especially with children) is different from the English model, but (as I understand it) no judge in Scotland would sentence in such a case without requiring background reports, and Social Workers refusing to supply such reports would be in court themselves for contempt of court.
425 - Darling has already stated the fuel duty escalator will help to solve Labour’s debt crisis.
429 - public borring
One too many ‘R’s methinks, Martin!
All those trips to the Liberal Club are going to your head….
Genuinely interesting reply from Spelman.
Thats th line against UKIP the Tories will take?
415 ‘Perhaps the Rees Mogg adult nanny should look after Spelman.’
Or Baroness Scotland’s former housekeeper. Talking of whom, why hasn’t she resigned in disgrace?
431 - An adult nanny is “an adult”
tim, you’ll have to be clearer than that if you want to make sense.
I don’t believe it, Gordo was at yet another f##kin school today,
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/01/21/article-1245080-07F500BD000005DC-696_468×286.jpg
What is it with school kids? Is it because he has found people on the maturity level?
Dimbleby good on QT in questioning how you can draw up effective legislation to ban the burka.
Labour’s class war strategy is genius!
Labour’s attacks came as a union leader smeared a Conservative MP who has served in Afghanistan by suggesting he should get some experience of “real jobs.”
Paul Kenny, the general secretary of the GMB union, said Tory candidates in Milton Keynes were unrepresentative of the area they represent.
He said: “These are not people that operate in the real world. It is alarming that they still come from such a thin layer of our society.”
Mr Kenny, who earns £112,000 a year and has been a full-time trade union official since 1979, added: “Perhaps we should widen all MPs’ experience by forcing them to take real jobs in public transport, in hospitality and in the NHS and they can then see what life is like from the other side of the counter.”
Mark Lancaster, the Conservative MP for Milton Keynes, served in the Royal Engineers before running his family’s business is still a Territorial Army bomb disposal officer.
Last night he said: “The GMB seem to be on a different planet. If they want to experience real life perhaps they can come and serve on the frontline in Afghanistan or run a manufacturing business - as I did before I entered Parliament – which generates the wealth politicians seek to distribute.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7046196/Harriet-Harman-class-election.html
And by the way. Is there a more annoying politician than Liam Byrne?
on the maturity level? -> with the same level of maturity
431. tim January 21st, 2010 at 11:19 pm
I thought you liked Warsi? You seem to flip flop as much on her as Gordon Brown does on whether the foriegn office anti insurgent/ Pakistan counter terrorism budget!
440 - I think Micheal Jackson was his idol
434. oldnat
What is even more confusing is that the argument that has been used against publication is to protect the identity of the families involved. Surely the judge knows who they are?
442 To paraphrase Gabble, ‘that ought to hurt’.
But it won’t.
I am all in favour of the burqa, but would support exceptions.
In case anyone thinks that sexist, I would extend its compulsory use to men with rare exceptions.
It assist the Rogers of this world capture the streetscape with greater artistic expression.
443 - Ed Balls?
443. stjohn. No, but imagining him as Zippy makes him easier to watch
442 - yet again it shows that mindless and mean spirited class warfare is an essential part of labour.
For a man who earns over 100k pounds a year as a full time union employee to talk about working people and ‘real jobs’ is laughable.
441 Thing about burkas is that you don’t know if it’s a man or woman.
I challenged someone in my local Sainsbury’s recently who was head to toe in black, with the grill - you can’t see any flesh - and the person left the shop, without answering.
All I said was that I found their attire inappropriate for going shopping. Same way I would if they were wearing buttockless trousers for instance.
Heh, you could tell the Labour activists in the crowd who started clapping when Byrne started speaking.
Is Teather speaking a lot of sense, or is it just the rest of the panel is talking so much more rubbish that she is seeming very sensible by comparison?
436. Tim B January 21st, 2010 at 11:20 pm
The lady behind the Bar had a nice pair of knockers! Though i did chat her up for a while! It was more the challange than the need to conquer! What i really found great was talking to her as she pelvic thrusted a stiff door shut - I felt like saying that action would be usefull in my bedroom!
You should have seen her knockers churn! 
454 - As a Tory, Miss Teather has always impressed me.
I notice that the Tories on here are struggling to deal with any substance tonight.
Marriage policy and Spelman I guess.
442. Classic - Labour really are composed of cretinous scumbags.
Perhaps not the headline they were hoping for…
Communities could be ‘ghettoised’ by official data website, Sir Tim Berners-Lee says
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7046313/Communities-could-be-ghettoised-by-official-data-website-Sir-Tim-Berners-Lee-says.html
458. Is this an audition for a new Carry On film, Martin? “Carry On Photoshopping”, perhaps?
443 - Downing Street haven’t answered my e-mail yet about whether Brown has put himself through the ISA/CRB process, since he’s at a school more than once a month.
Liam Byrne impressive on community cohesion but Sarah Teather shading it as the best politico so far. Spellman 3/3. Andrew Roberts is scaring me…
The interesting thing for me has been that the concept behind the Tory marriage plans seemed to be popular - the details (or lack of) rightly derided.
Spellman unbelievably poor on Kraft/Cadbury.
460. I haven’t noticed you engaging on the substantive issue
David Cameron will attack Labour’s “moral failure” today as he attempts to put his portrayal of Britain as a broken society at the heart of the election battleground.
On a day expected to be dominated by the sentencing of the young brothers in the horrific Edlington torture case, Mr Cameron will say that the country is stuck in a social recession. The Conservative leader will publish the “broken society” chapter of his party’s election manifesto, as strategists insist that the coming electoral fight will not be solely about the economy.
Mr Cameron has already intervened over the Edlington case and as the summary of the serious case review comes out today after the sentencing, he is likely to press his call for the report to be published in full. Gordon Brown resisted that approach on Wednesday, insisting that children’s organisations believed that it was crucial to protect the anonymity of young witnesses.
Conservative strategists believe that ministers are vulnerable on social policy and intend to go on highlighting what they see as failings in the approach to cases such as the one in Edlington and Baby Peter in Haringey, despite the sensitivities involved.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6997592.ece
Crap record and Gordo I guess
460 tim
Spelman was certainly spouting nonsense about the Cadbury takeover.
If a company offers its shares for sale on an open stock market it is providing implicit consent for it to be purchased.
I guess it is the price of being a Birmingham MP.
460 ‘I notice that the Tories on here are struggling to deal with any substance tonight.’
tim, the answers more mundane. Most posters are simply choosing to ignore you, and your repetitive posting.
I take back what I said about Teather. Sheeesh.
Madeley = hero
All I said was that I found their attire inappropriate for going shopping. Same way I would if they were wearing buttockless trousers for instance.
============
What’s inappropriate about it? Buttockless trousers show something you don’t want to see. The burkha means you can’t see someone’s face, oh the horror.
Spelman is a disaster.
463. AndrewG January 21st, 2010 at 11:31 pm
One thing is for sure it wont be called carry on behind! Up the the front maybe a better title!
454. Scott P.
Byrne clearly models himself on Blair. He is an airfix model Concorde.
471 - Oh no she’s not.
460 tim
Substances have been banned in the Tory party since the Eton and Notting Hill incidents.
Where have you been?
466. What’s potentially clever about these attacks is the obvious, if subliminal, linkages between Labour, the ar*e covering social services establishment, and the broader theme of a public sector that is wasteful and ineffective.
Ed Balls accused of wooing the anti-immigrant vote
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6997645.ece
470 corporeal
Buttockless trousers
My trousers don’t have buttocks. Do yours?
467 - The people of Meriden will be very unhappy thinking they have a Birmingham MP.
Gordo off to a good start with Chilcot. Sky says No 10 leaked their letter inviting him to appear. Doh!
477 - Ed Balls couldn’t woo a filth-ridden whore with £50 notes sticking out of his fly.
478. Ask Sparky
Hospitals will have to reduce services, sell off buildings and move into smaller premises to cope with financial pressures in the next few years, the head of the foundation trusts’ regulatory body has warned.
William Moyes, who steps down from his role as executive chairman of Monitor after six years next week, told The Times that too many hospitals were not grasping the economic challenges ahead.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6997644.ece
470. corporeal January 21st, 2010 at 11:35 pm
I wont say any more!
Other than i do not like facial covering because you dont know who is behind it! I saw someone clad in it well over 6ft tall with a pushcahir under a Huddersfield rail bridge, the person hung around for about 15 mins and no rain/preciepation. To be honest i did not know whether to have a word with the transport police or not because if i was wrong i would be accused of being racist…..
Am I the only person who thinks some women should be forced to wear the burqa?
http://tinyurl.com/EvenIHaveStandards
454 Sparky
What a remarkably inchoate post!
Why do you have this wish to know the secondary sexual characteristics of everyone you meet? You sound like some of my parents generation who objected to our long hair for the same reason. I always assumed that it was because they had inadvertently groped a stranger of the wrong sex.
They may have not answered because they didn’t speak English.
Who are you to decide what is inappropriate dress for other people to go shopping? No doubt, you would object to my shopping in my kilt!
Andrew Neil has speculated that, Gordon Brown deciding to attend the Chilcot enquiry before the election, is a sign of his growing confidence.
Nurse!
470 Inappropriate attire - I guess it’s the fact that it destroys all sense of community. You’ve absolutely no idea who that person is and you’d have no way of knowing if it was them if you saw them again. They’re unrecognisable.
Plus it rubs off - there was a teenager on my tube the other day who’d covered his head and face with one of palestinian scarves, so that all you could see was his eyes. It’s intimidating. But I just stared and laughed at him. It’s the best way to deal with I think.
Interesting comment,
BBC deputy political editor James Landale said it was not yet known if whether it was Mr Brown or Sir John who had decided to call for an earlier appearance.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8473790.stm
Who is running this panel exactly?
re 483 Oracle and yes you can bet your life that even if a hospital building is sold to Tesco the tax payer will still be paying the mortgage on it. All these PFIs mean that there will be no savings made by selling off buildings.
478 - Google “Assless Pants”
Not for the delicate flowers.
487 - Neil is right.
See post 314
“Geoff Hoon in race to land top job with Football League”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1245153/Geoff-Hoon-race-land-job-Football-League.html
460 Not seen much substance to deal with. Dull question time, and yes the marriage thing is a bit of a shambles but not in a million years epoch making/game changing or whatever. And if you thought Teather was anything other than a disaster, most especially in her attempt to understand/deal with the Cadburys RBS issue, you are losing that icily objective clarity of vision which makes you, on your own account, such a successful political gambler. It is not the case that a lot of nasty hedge funds run by bankers acting on insider knowledge went and sneakily bought every single share from the true blue British long term shareholders just in time to sell them on to Kraft, which I think is what she was saying.
Darth Vader on this week.
486 Oldnat - I’m no fasionista - no arbiter of dress - but I’m allowed my opinion, and feel increasingly given to speaking out. If I see an old lady with a nice hat, I’ll let her let know. Likewise the burka.
479 tim
The people of Meriden will be very unhappy thinking they have a Birmingham MP.
My TomTom doesn’t work North of the home counties.
I need a driver to navigate.
Perhaps I should call him TimTim.
P.S. WTF is Meriden?
I think that Diane Abbott got it slightly wrong when she suggested that ramming through an amendment of AV would simple unite the Libdems and the Tories while splitting Labour.
It provides a real headache for the Libdems as well as the PLP, full stop. Are we to now see them voting for an amendment on a referendum on AV which is no where on the electorate’s radar of important issues right now, but has suddenly become a hot issue for a departing Labour government? Especially when they didn’t support an amendment on having a referendum for the Lisbon Treaty, despite everyone having that as a manifesto promise in the last GE? Ohh, this is a very tricky one for Mr Clegg right now just before the next GE.
478 - I think they’re known as “chaps”.
492 - Oh god not Buff Hoon running the football league, we already have an idiot Labourite “running” the FA.
485-
LOL.
Sky paper review. ‘Benefits culture is because of the Tories’
Is this the latest line?
496 - Meriden is the birthplace of the band “Napalm Death”
501 - Who said that? Not watching at a guess, Stephen Pound?
501 - Well Iraq is the fault of the Tories for believing Blair.
488. So?
As for intimidating, how many years has that been going around. Yet we now seem to be able to cope with people wearing sunglasses and leather jackets fine enough.
As for staring and laughing, you probably just made yourself look silly.
Live and let live, and let people wear what they want as far as is reasonable and don’t worry about it
Dianne Abbott says Govt will move amendment on AV referendum.
Not sure if we have any experts but by my calculations it is now impossible for the Constitutional Reform Bill to become law pre GE without Conservative support.
Parliament website says two more days in Commons Committee already scheduled for 26 Jan and 2 Feb. After that it still has to do Commons Report Stage / 3rd Reading, all Lords stages and amendments. If you look at timetable for how a Bill goes through the Lords there is not enough time left (remember recess from 10 Feb to 22 Feb).
495 Sparky
“I’m allowed my opinion.” Of course you are, you sound exactly like my mother in her dotage when she had lost all sense of reasonable social behaviour.
I have my opinion of you as well, but I’m willing to moderate saying more, as you may also be suffering from senile dementia.
506 - Would be quite ironic if the bill ran out of time, all because the Labour MP’s voted themselves long Christmas and now Easter holidays.
497. I think LDs will all vote against the AV referendum. So approx 35 Labour rebels required to defeat it in the Commons.
re 506 what calculations are those. The bill could be enacted by the middle of next week if the government had a mind to it. Labour + LDs have sufficient votes in the HoL.
502 TSE
None the wiser yet now better informed.
Any local String Quartets?
503 - I think it was a Guardian journo. The one who is scared of Kelvin.
509. I think the symbolism would be more entertaining if it was defeated by an unelected HoL. Lefties would moan about it till the end of time, which would allow ample opportunity to point out they had 13 years to sort it. Numpties.
485. “Am I the only person who thinks some women should be forced to wear the burqa?”
No, you are not. We need a website where individuals can be elected as “burqable” - open to candidates of either sex.
Perhaps there should also be a licensing authority for wearing a bikini in public. Or those minimalist thongy things that blokes wear on the beach when they’ve nothing much to hide.
I’m a life-long Tory voter. I’m also very happily single.
This is one of the few things likely to stop me voting in the election - I absolutely *will not* be lectured to on this issue. My lifestyle is what *I* choose. I respect Cameron’s desire to be married, have children etc, and I expect him and the party to respect *my* choice to live my life the way I want to.
I have absolutely no desire to be part of a permanent, monogamous relationship. I don’t lie, I don’t hide things, I just enjoy having multiple friends or partners. I’m not judgemental about others - they’re welcome to their life of marital bliss, if that’s what works for them.
But I will never vote for someone who preaches at me.
Respect my choices and my individuality, or go away.
oh FFS,lady sovereign on next and maquire,left wing night me thinks.
496. SOL
Meriden is a village, no idea how it managed to get a constituency named after it.
Although Meriden constituency is in Solihull borough half of its electorate are in suburbs such as Chelmsley Wood and Castle Bromwich which are effectively part of urban Birmingham.
Whether the people in those areas regard themselves as living in Birmingham is another matter. Albion TID would be the local expert.
516 - Good on you! Its individuals like you that make see past the old Tory assumptions.
515 - Let me introduce you to http://www.mingers.com
510. The LDs are not going to support it.
Calculations are based on Parliament website, eg
- Lords 2nd reading minimum 2 weekends after 1st reading
- Lords Committee minimum 2 weeks after 2nd reading
etc
See link and click on icons:
http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/passage_bill/index.htm
516. “I will never vote for someone who preaches at me. “
Who can you vote for with that restriction?
520. No way am I going to click onto that link!
Mike L January 21st, 2010 at 11:57 pm
It stinks of one of Browns dividing lines.
I though James Earl Jones interesting - I never realised he was the voice of Darth Vader. Though thinking about it now and what Darth Vader said I can see it!
James Earl Jones, it must be said is part of my childhood (Films/TV) - I hadn’t seen him in anything recently and thus thought he must have died. It is good to see him on TV even in a non acting role. Interesting fellow - I dont agree with him on obama but can see why he thinks Obama is so pivotol. Maybe it is the succes from colin powell to Condilza rice that the fact Obama is POTUS is not such a shock to the system i thought it would be! I did think Obama would fall victim at the election but he did much better than i thought. A 50% plus victory as he got was a surprise IMO - A good result despite the fact i disagree with his policies.
505 I’ve seen burkas (and the one without the grill) for a few years now. I’m finding it hard to learn to love it, like you obviously do.
And covering your face on public transport is out of order. It’s a public space where everyone has to compromise their behaviour and recognise the sensitivities of others - turn the music down, don’t fart, swear, litter, intimidate other passengers etc.
The teenage wannabee-ganstas round my way wear hoods and scarves and gloves in the middle of the summer! CCTV and fingerprints. They use the burka as an excuse - if they can cover up, so can I.
Gordon Brown made a massive mistake in the clip I have just seen on this week by saying his wife did not marry him because of his £150K salary.
That leads folk who know about the £350k mortgage equity release to make a point precisly on that issue!
516. I’m also single and at first was completely against the policy.
I’m still not overly keen on it but I think what makes it acceptable is that single parents receive absolutely collosal benefits so this policy is only a tiny move in the direction of levelling the playing field.
Come on ELENA
Thought I’d say that before she loses first set 6-0
Stupid British Eurosport watching Jankovic. I can’t find Eurosport 2 on my telly. No box, just 30 seemingly random channels.
Has to be said, this is first time it’s bothered me
516. Where has Cameron ever said that he disrespects your choice to be single or, alteratively, to cohabit? Cameron wants to encourage marriage because he believes it to be a generally good thing. Lots of other things the government perceives to be good are recognised in the tax system, such as entrepeneurs. Does the fact that entrepeneurs have tax breaks means that the Government doesn’t respect the choice of those who wish to be employed by someone else?
526 Martin Day
He was quoting Ken Clarke.
Has DeanB ever been seen on this site before?
I always have extreme doubts about anyone who says “I’m a life long Tory voter”
Has anybody else seen the portillo program where he goes around the country on trains? It is unfortunate it as 18:30 each day as i like to watch the local news. I have seen snappits! Very interesting!
518 Another Richard
Thanks.
So I was broadly correct, but tim decided to attack on an insignificant technicality.
Hmmmmm.
531. It is funny how so many “life-long” Tory voters decide they simply have to come and tell everyone that they have decided not to vote Tory anymore because of x, y, and z.
531 - “I’m a life long Tory voter”
That usually is the opening gambit of the UKIP trolls on conhome.
531 Another Richard
His single appearance I think.
“I’m a life long Tory voter” suggests significant personation at elections for the first 18 years.
**** BETTING POST ****
Once in a while a “free money” opportunity floats down the river. I wonder if one is floating down the stream as we speak?
However, the last time I felt this, it was when I thought that Susan Boyle was nailed on to win Simon Cowell’s show. I floated the idea here then that she was a “sure thing” but fortunately wiser heads cautioned me against the bet. And of course she lost; but is now a world sensation.
Whilst I’m on non political betting “specials”, a bit of overdue housekeeping on my part.
Prior to this year I had a great record in the SPOTY, but this year my bets were hopeless. My two main SPOTY bets were sabotaged by the BBC TV directors. Flintoff never made it to the ballot and then, on the night, the show was promoted in Giggs favour, over the worthy winner, Jessica Ennis.
I backed the best dancer to win SCD, Ricky, but again my apologies to anyone who unwisely followed my judgment. The show was presnted to favour the winner, Chris. And outrageously George Best failed to win the “GISER” - Greatest Irish Sportsperson Ever.
So a poor record recently from me recently. Which returns me to my theme.
Is Avatar nailed on for Best Picture at the Oscars? I’ve backed Avatar for Best Director at 11/10 because Best Picture is now an odds on shot.
So is backing Avatar to win Best Picture free money or not? Nearly all the film chat I hear is about Avatar. Should we bet the farm or not at current odds?
re 521 Mike with a majority a government can do anything. Those are not legal timetables.
530. oldnat January 22nd, 2010 at 12:10 am
I did not see PMQs, it was what i hurd on this week! Even so, it looks bad to me!
Brown should be careful of those he quotes! Lets remember Brown has shoved a huge amount of tax against folk and he has still not been rapped over his knuckles for his £350K equity release by his wife!
Dianne Abbott implies Straw is still positioning himself for the Labour leadership, if I have read her correctly.
I am a life long Labour voter but have decided not to vote Labour because of Gordon Brown!
Did Andrew Neil just say that Brown goes before Chilcott next Friday ?
540 Martin Day
I saw it on This Week as well! Perhaps your hearing/vision were distorted by your burqa?
I am a life long Lib Dem voter but have decided not to vote Labour because of Nick Clegg!
Lady Sovereign walks out before appearing on This Week….
538. stjohn
PP had a market for Avatar to win the picture/director double at 6/5 but they seem to have taken it down. I did post…
543 Kristin
I assume he meant the PM at the time. Mind you, it would be fun to have Blair and Brown at Chilcot at the same time!
I think attacking this policy is foolish and will backfire. Not massively, but it is a mistake.
Labour really don’t have any idea how to attack the Tories.
543 Kristin
I think it is a case of call Brown, get Blair.
539. But they don’t have a majority in the Lords. The LDs are not going to co-operate with accelerating this.
Also why has Labour been so slow with this Bill?
Commons 2nd Reading - 19 Nov
Commons Committee - 2 Feb
I suspect Brown knows he can’t get this through so he is slowing it down so will be able to say he propopsed an amendment and opposition blocked it.
Forget inheritance tax – Tory marriage policy is Labour’s new favourite target
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5722368/forget-inheritance-tax-tory-marriage-policy-is-labours-new-favourite-target.thtml
tim’s got his orders
548 / 550 - thanks, I thought he was a little confused
547. Scott P.
Paddy Power have Avatar as Best Film at 4/6 and Cameron as Best Director at 11/10. I have backed the latter but I wonder if the former is a “monster” opportunity? Not that you would manage to get get much on with PP.
I am not recommending “betting the farm” as it’s not my subject and I haven’t even seen the film. Merely asking the PB community whether they feel this bet looks “nailed on”?
Whether it is marriage tax or not Conservatives drop from 3rd to 4th in Wakefield byelection Airedale and Ferry Friston Lab hold
Lab 1330 LibDem 603 BNP 353 Con 275 Ind 102
2008 result
Lab 1401 BNP 628 Con 540 LibDem 430
“The BBC understands” - code for we’ve been told by the boss.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8473790.stm
Gordon Brown will be called to give evidence to the Iraq Inquiry before the general election, the BBC understands.
180
Classic Salmond. He is incomparably the best political performer in these islands.
Lab/Tory/libs should bid for his services. As they used to say when I was a denizen of Glasgow - (s)miles better!
For anyone wanting to watch a British Ukrainian getting spanked, Elena is on BBC2.
541.”Dianne Abbott implies Straw is still positioning himself for the Labour leadership, if I have read her correctly.”
stjohn, I thought that watching him live at the Chillcott inquiry today. I missed that bit of This Week though. I thought the news of the heated meeting of the PLP on Monday, and that they are clearly divided on this attempt to push through an AV referendum before the GE very interesting news. Michael Crick has some good posts up on his blog about the background to this. Apparently Brown had a window to do this back in December, but he dithered and missed it.
On QT, I have to disagree with some about Sarah Tether’s performance tonight. I thought she performed really poorly on a range of issues, not least on the Iraq issue. I know there was a good Libdem crowd in the audience, but she really didn’t come across well when expressing her views or facts. Richard Madely was the clear winner on a number of occasions, he was quite impressive in arguing his point, whether you agreed with his views or not. And that only served to show up the actual politicians on the programme even further.
552. johnno January 22nd, 2010 at 12:25 am
Funny enough - I think back to basics is potentially a popular policy! Sure due to some Tory MPs in 1993 it backfired but given the social breakdown under Labour. I would back it now whereas i may have disagreed before. The Tories are not really offering back to basics but society has changed for the worse since then! The new citizens of the UK irronically are more likely to back the ‘back to basics’ policy than many of the old WWC voters.
Seriously Labour are IMO setting themselves up not just for a bad defeat but something extrodianry. Will some of the small C conservative immigrants back Labours rejection of marrage? I doubt the folk who were Labours WWC voters care one way or the other - the new Labour voters (Not to be confused with “New Labour” are immigrants and are socially conservative) Labour could well end up killing the USP for their new voters whilst losing thei old Labour voters?
Why were they conducting Question Time in the middle of a shopping mall?
516516.
‘I’m a life-long Tory voter. I’m also very happily single.’
These planted posts get harder & harder to spot.
Dean,No Labour party issues or constituents to deal with this evening?
561 - GIN - have you ever been to MK ? The mall IS the centre of everything from what I saw
560. Martin I really don’t care either way about Cam’s marriage stuff, but the fact Tim hates it so much and will feel so much pain when its introduced is reason enough for me to want to government to do it!
After all those years of lefties doing what they wanted and even gloating about it and Conservatives having to just suck it up, now its time for payback time! 
On a more serious note, I suspect you are quite correct with your analysis. Britain has always been a small c conservative society and Camerons policies on the family and marriage and the broken society, whilst not popular with trendy lefties, will prove very popular with many ordinary people and floating voters, IMO.
561. GIN January 22nd, 2010 at 12:38 am
Funny enough - the last time i went to that shopping centre about 8 years ago it had very few non white folk there. The Labour part of the audience felt as though it had been shipped in!
563.
Re 564. Did I actually type that I wanted the government to do it, rather than the next or future government? Silly me.
Mind, its so easy these days to think of the Tories as the government and Labour as the “insurgent” opposition.
566 - I don’t like to knock any town just for the sake of it but I’ve never like ‘New’ towns much. Planners have a lot to answer. East Kilbride is somewhat similar. I believe they plan all the roundabouts ( and McDonalds ? ) first . No soul just concrete and tarmac with a few trees thrown in to comfort the poor folks who get shipped in.
CADBURY’S new US bosses may shelve plans to save a UK factory - a day after buying the firm for £12billion.
Officials at Kraft have privately whispered that they may have to go back on a pledge to keep the site.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/money/2817434/Kraft-may-go-back-on-pledge-to-save-Cadbury-plant.html#ixzz0dIXPh1Uy
558 David Roe
You’ve gone native!
The correct description in Scotland is Scots (if winning), British (if losing).
For the Brit press it should be British (if winning), Scots (if losing).
569 - sad news, if true, for the folks there.
571 - Brillant headline though on many levels.
564. GIN January 22nd, 2010 at 12:43 am
To be honest I am more political than Brown and many of the Labour folk - I would love to screw them over worse than they did the Tories! The point being I am probably better at it than they are!
Though I am more selective and the Labour folk who are moderate or percieved as alright I would leave alone! 
I could do this and think it something i am very able to do. There will be no soft let offs I can tell you! I have suffered under Labour and will exact retrubution.
I want to adminster retrubution for the country, this extends beyond tories but also encompses LD and some Labour supporters. The British people were misled - the damage needs to be assesed and punished!
573. I’d be scared if I were Brown or Clegg. :O
570 - LOL
I do remember when Andy Murray burst onto the scene I worked with a Scots lass and whenever he was on and she’d ask how he was doing I’d say. ‘He’s a plucky Brit’ if he has just won a set and ‘He’s being Scottish’ if he’d lost
Baltacha is getting her arse whupped.
573 - Martin, the best revenge on the PLP would be to help vote them out. Nothing else required
574. GIN January 22nd, 2010 at 12:56 am
I have suffered a huge amount under Labour - I want to make sure that it was not in vain. I will welcome the ability to assess why folk worked/functioned in the way they did.
Labour supported by Lib Dems have been wrong and extreame. It needs investigating and where appropriate further action needs taking. I have a feeling Labour will be the ones under the cosh!
Tata ‘fed up’ with ministers over Corus closure
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/business-and-industry/tata-fed-up-with-ministers-over-corus-closure-$1354960.htm
In all betting seriousness, Safina is getting most of her serves in. If she can continue that, she’s a very lively bet for the Womens’ Singles.
She needs a Slam for a real breakthrough as many have suggested her ranking is false, but she IS seeded 2.
Quite tasty odds available and a lot of seeds have fallen already.
477. Any way that the BNP candidate has a chance of taking the seat altogether? Or are the Times hyping?
NEW THREAD
PMQ’s yesterday, Gordon Brown tells the House that he has written to Chillcott inquiry to see about appearing at it before the GE, we are told last night that they got the letter only yesterday. Negotiations are now under way to facilitate a date for his appearance (Craig - Sky sources). Definite media line being peddled that this is yet more sign of a more confidently performing Gordon Brown….that line being put/peddled/briefed.
After it first being made clear that he would appear only after the GE, we now have him putting himself forward because ‘he has nothing to hide’? The timing of this inquiry has turned into a complete disaster for him and his government right now. A very avoidable car crash. Set the remit, and pick the panel to prevent the Tories doing it post GE if elected? I don’t buy it to be honest.
Brown has not only dropped himself right in it in the run up to the GE campaign, but he also chose to do the same to other current politicians like Straw and Hoon, and they were not accorded the same preferential treatment as Brown. Campbell and Blair, I bet neither were very happy to be called up and put through this again either. So why do it? Short term tactics without any real idea of the longer term implications, and all to gain some political bounce when things were not going so well for him personally, or his government?
I suspect that a)Brown never planned on this inquiry and the GE coinciding as it has done, and b)he really thought at the time that he could turn things around and crush Cameron and Osborne as a political threat in a GE before it. Neither has happened, and it was immensely damaging that he was being seen to be avoiding his appearance before the GE, this story was gaining legs because he was now being implicated by his colleagues. And after years of managing to appear totally uninvolved in the whole issue. I think we are being fed a very deliberate bit of Brownite short term tactical spin right now. This doesn’t smell right.
481.Bu**er!!
Wow. Yes, I’m a first time poster on here. But I read this site daily, it’s just that this is the first time I’ve been moved to write a comment.
And I get shot down as a troll / paid poster / whatever.
This is an issue I feel very, very strongly about. One of my current main concerns about Conservative policies is that they are too pro-family. Personally, I’m happy to be both single and never have children.
While I recognise that’s not a popular stance, I’m nevertheless acutely aware that I end up subsidising all the “breeders” out there both through taxes and through social policy (paternity / maternity leave etc).
And for the record on the “life-long Tory” point, the first election I was able to vote in was 1979.