What do you think was the biggest story of the decade?
December 28th, 2009
There were some interesting non-voting question in the PB/Angus Reid pre-Christmas poll which have just been published - one of which is featured above.
Interestingly men respondents placed Iraq at number one while the women in the survey went for the July 2005 London bombings.
It’s a good question and I wonder what PBers would have answered?
I’ve got little doubt and that was the Labour government’s Tony’s decision to invade Iraq in 2003 alongside the Americans.
Mike Smithson
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9/11 obviously.
Iraq.
1 tim
September 11 would have been the biggest story, but Iraq overshadowed it by quite some way.
Liverpool coming from 3nil down at half time, to win the Champions Leagues in the 2005.
From previous thread for SSI
I have to admit I’ve not watched this one very carefully other than noting a few days back on this forum about the death of Montazeri and its possibel ramifications. Then I took time out of boredom to have a look at events.
Things have a certain number of differences from last time.
1. Its wider than the obvious intellectual reformers and the students. The regular joes with moustaches have got involved to some extent.
2. The oppostion leadership is better organised, and they are organised but they are still fragmented. In addition teh killing of Mousavi’s nephew was the regimes way of saying you’ll be next…it may have the effect of making people think there is nothing to lose.
3. The regime’s reaction shows its having issues. Theyve taken to the gun very quickly and what appear to be covert killing in addition to the usual round ups. They are also not exactly showing great signs of being the guardians of Islam or indeed order.
4. There is evidence that the demonstrations are more widespread and more angry
5. Those in the front line of trying to deal with the crowds on the streets are different this time. The police are showing some evidence in some areas of being unable to handle it or simply not being willing to. The more we see the regimes own guards & militias out, the more you know some of the surrounding elements of the state are proving ineffective.
6. Where’s the army? I mean the army rather than the militias that dominate the regimes control mechanism.
The key, as ever, is momentum. The same crowds with the same riots will just tire out the wider population who the next level of support will spring from. The regime simply needs passivity, those in the opposition need some of that wider population to come onside.
The regime really had the the first set of trouble in the summer well held through a mix of brutality and inetlligent responses but the opposition figureheads didnt push on. They stepped back.
The wider world needs to get its ass in gear. It is a tricky thing to do but somewhere at some point the west must get a co-ordinated reaction. There has long been covert efforts in Iran (the regime is not making it up when it particularly focusses on the British in this regards). Ot has tools available, it needs to use them.
If we see the regime take a step back to try to calm the situation..expect it to really roll on.
9/11, not just for the attacks themselves but also because it led directly to Afghanistan and Iraq both of which have dogged the government from their outset.
FPT 503. antifrank
If a senior Labour advisor had been found guilty of bullying a mentally ill man and was unrepentant, the outrage from the tory posters on this site would be deafening.
I am genuinely astonished that not one of you have the balls to question the position of Coulson, based on his past conduct.
3 - Everything followed from 9/11, it dwarfs all other stories.
8 - So what was the link between 9/11 and Iraq?
7. Gabble
If a senior Labour advisor had been found guilty of bullying a mentally ill man and was unrepentant, the outrage from the tory posters on this site would be deafening.
I don’t understand your point. If Mandelson’s conduct towards Brown does not count as a senior Labour advisor bullying a mentally ill man, what does?
Iraq.
It set the political timbre for everything that came after it this decade, and its catastrophic consequences will resonate throughout the next thirty years.
Election of Barrack Obama.
OR Boris Johnson (who endorsed Obama) take yer pick!
9, TSE - 9/11 gave cover to Bin Ladin’s supermole the VP. And the rest as they say is history.
@8:
I disagree, tim. One of the interesting things about 9/11, eight years on, is how little political relevance it carries, when compared to the errors of the grotesqueries of the Iraq war.
9/11 is old news, Iraq is not.
506 FPT [SSI]: “S&S - but hasn’t the GOP congressional strategy helped make the case that the Dems do NOT enjoy “total control” the way that FDR did in 1933 or LBJ in 1965? Believe that may help my team more than yours!
BTW, are you Gov. Cristie? Or in his cabinet? Or do they just send you Christmas cards AND invites to the Inaugural Ball?”
The GOP congressional strategy (as the Dems would say, being the “Party of No”) is essential, and I completely support it. In fact, my greatest fear a year ago was that Obama would pursue a strategy of moderation/splitting the GOP, which thankfully hasn’t happened. It appears that he has no inclination to pursue that strategy, and his left flank won’t tolerate it anyway.
The Dems can and do try to pass off responsibility for their disappointments by pointing to GOP obstruction, but I just don’t see that people are buying it. The biggest indicator to me of the failure of this strategy is in the reaction of the left: they seem to be much more furious with their own party than with Republicans, recognizing as they do that their own party really does have the votes to do what it wants. In fact, the country has been fed a steady diet of this for years, i.e., the argument that if only the Dems are given the White House and big congressional majorities, they’ll fix all sorts of things. The Dems can hardly turn around now and claim none of this was true after all, and the vanquished Republicans are still to blame (even if there may be some truth to this, nobody wants to hear it). The vast center of the electorate, meanwhile, doesn’t pay enough attention to politics to give credit to arcane Democratic arguments of why they’re really not to blame even though they’re in control.
As for Gov. Christie, balls, fetes, soirees, etc., etc., I am a fringe player and contribute to the effort in the manner I wish (which may not be as much as you think). Politics is a fun but dicey game and I prefer to keep my distance from the boiling cauldron!
9 TSE
The invasion of Iraq would not have taken place had 9/11 not preceded it.
That is not saying that Iraq was justified by 9/11 nor that 9/11 was caused or materially contributed to by Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.
The Run on Northern Rock? Britain’s first bank run in 140 years.
7 Coulson hasn’t been “found guilty” of anything.
re 4. No the big one was Burnley’s return to the top-flight after 33 years in May 2009.
@17:
What’s interesting about that chart is how little the economy seems to impact people’s perceptions of the greater scheme of things.
Maybe it’s because people are aware of the cyclical nature of economies, and mentally factor in recessions and crashes, but it certainly seems to suggest, as many of us suspect, that IT’S NOT (JUST) THE ECONOMY, STUPID.
As news, 9/11 dwarfs almost any story in my lifetime. JFK, Diana don’t come close. The moon landing is perhaps comparable, but is let down by the fact that it was expected. Iraq and Afghanistan may have been more important than 9/11 (though that is not easy to argue as they were consequenes of 9/11) but they weren’t the first wars in history or even the first Iraq and Afghanistan wars in history.
Looking at numbers above, things that strike me are:
1. The large number of older voters who mentioned the Parliamentary expense scandal
2. The (to me) high number who mentioned Northern Ireland.
3. The impact of personal (smoking ban) and empthetic (Madeline) issues.
4. Wonder how many mentioned the late Dr. Kelly?
1) I’m not a Tory.
2) I hold no brief for Andy Coulson or the Conservatives.
3) It is not particularly likely that I will vote Conservative, though it remains a possibility.
4) I do believe in due process.
5) I do not believe that there is any ground for questioning the position of anyone for actions that they undertook in a previous role - is it your position that anyone who has been found by an employment tribunal as guilty of bullying should never be able to get another job?
6) The difference from the Damian McBride case couldn’t be starker - in that case, the offender was participating in a conspiracy to defame by rumour numerous opposition politicians, from the comfort of his government-paid office. Despite that, he was not sacked but allowed to resign.
As I said before, you seem to be clutching at straws.
20 - Unless you’re Gordon Brown, who thinks he can end the economic cycle.
I have visions of him going round in the bunker telling Labour strategists
“It’s the stupid economy”
19 - For me, it will always be Istanbul, I’ll never forget all the abusive texts i received at half time, that mysteriously stopped after the 60th minute.
1- Agreed. The world as it is since 9/11 can’t be explained without reference to 9/11. No other event this decade has had such singular importance or has engendered such a huge chain of consequences.
Number two would be the recent global financial and economic collapse.
1) 9/11 - the impact on foreign policy and civil liberties (in both cases an entirely malign change, as idiots who think they are clever have grabbed the wheel and crashed us into a wall).
2) The recession and the debt overhang - probably the biggest story of the next 10 years.
The way the question was phrased in the poll is leading unfortunately.
The financial crisis was not even included as an option. I suspect many people would have voted for it if they could.
Better to just ask “What was the biggest news story of the decade” as a free-form question, and perhaps if they say don’t know or not sure, prompt with a list of 10 contenders.
9/11 wasn’t an event in the UK, which is presumably why it wasn’t on the list.
It’s a moderate recession, as predicted.
19 - Stoke City beating Arsenal 2-0 at home and having a throw-in weapon equivalent to a cruise missile beats that I am afraid
9/11 defined the decade. The Iraq debacle will define international affairs in the Middle East for far longer.
IS GORDON BROWN DETERMINED TO HAND THE TORIES VICTORY JUST TO SECURE AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND.
They do say that our behaviour and actions are largely created by our genetic/tribal code. So perhaps old Gordo is on a pre-determined path without even realising it.
24 You mean he doesn’t repeat his former mantra…”No more boom and bust” or the “Golden rule” or that he fixedit when he realised he couldn’t meet his own rules, or how he sold our gold for a song…. or how he ” saved the world”
@30:
Forgive me, but I recall that you predicted:
“There has been no boom, and there will be no bust.”
You lefties are good at predictions.
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
30. Gabble.
You’re fun. You can stay.
“Officially the longest and deepest recession in British history” — Reality
“A moderate recession, as predicted” — Our pal, Gabs.
29 - Neither was Iraq or Afghanistan
And more Britains died in 9/11 than 7/7
14, MC - neither 9/11 nor London ‘05 will not be “old news” as long as Islamic extremists keep on probing and penetrating airport security.
BTW, personally think that the fact the attack was made on Amsterdam-Detroit flight could be very significant. After all, this is NOT a route that spings to mind when you consider air travel; my guess is that it has it’s origin in the many Dutch American who invest Western Michigan. Of course Schipol has a (so I hear) good security reputation. BUT perhaps the boyos from Al Quida found a loophole? And that’s why they picked this particular route?
30. “It’s a moderate recession, as predicted.”
Good to see that nothing changes, you are still an ignorant troll. Keep it up Gabble your posts are worth more than a few votes for Labour’s opponents.
re 7 & 23. The term “found guilty” is not accurate here. Please could you make that clear. This was an Employment Tribunal and nobody was on trial.
30 - The longest and deepest recession since records began is moderate. You useless cretin, it’s that kind of logic, that causes our government, to send our troops into battle criminally under resourced.
34. Martin Coxall
“There has been no ‘boom’ and there will be no ‘bust’.
Just 11 years of moderate growth to be followed by a relatively short period of moderate recession.”
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/10/26/could-it-happen-here/#comment-823736
On a domestic arena, then the economic collapse, financial crisis and the longest post-war recession will define the next decade. Assuming a Labour defeat, whatever emerges from the left could define politics for 21st century.
30 The biggest fall in output for 77 years is a “moderate recession”.
Elvis is alive, the moon is made of goats cheese, and there really are little green men on Mars.
37 - Britons even.
Including the War in Afghanistan and excluding 9/11 makes no sense whatsoever.
Off topic.
Vid of Mr Cameron’s New Year Message
http://playpolitical.typepad.com/uk_conservative/2009/12/david-camerons-new-year-message-emphasises-clean-positive-politics.html
Teaser from Tim Mongomerie: “ELECTION ALERT! Tune into ConHome at 10.30pm tonight for an interesting insight into Tory strategy”
http://twitter.com/TimMontgomerie/statuses/7132474456
1. 9/11 - you could feel the world changing that day. so many other things hang from that, civil liberties, the wars, the climate of fear used politically imo
2. economic collapse, the domino effect
3. expenses
7. “If a senior Labour advisor had been found guilty of bullying a mentally ill man and was unrepentant, the outrage from the tory posters on this site would be deafening”
And what is the man behind the briefings against David Kelly doing now? Stones and glass houses.
Don’t Angus Reid live in the real world. The event which will have the most serious and long-lasting impact on our lives was the banking collapse and worldwide recession of the past two years and it isn’t even included on their list.
Ignore therefore and move on methinks.
42 Well, you got that prediction totally wrong, didn’t you?
I apologise for my sloppy use of language and am happy to make the clarification that you ask for.
It was the death of David Kelly for me. The lies about Iraqi WMD came home to roost in a terrible tragedy.
35. tim: Including the War in Afghanistan and excluding 9/11 makes no sense whatsoever.
Not really, since the war in Afghanistan is a campaign of the British Army and hence of the United Kingdom.
9/11 was a foreign act of terrorism.
You might disagree with the logic, but it’s there.
re 48 And why did Labour conspire to avoid a proper inquest into Dr Kelly’s death?
This has never gone before a court - there has been no due process.
Tim will accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist - but that is no answer. There is a legal process for the investigation of mysterious deaths - Labour avoided that in this case. Why?
Until that takes places people will draw their own conclusions.
15, S&S - you are very wise . . . leastways in your final paragraph!
BTW, did you hear that Morus is soon to visit the Meadownlands?
42 - That’s up there with John Reid, and his prediction that British troops would serve in Helmand without firing a shot.
Gabble’s statement on economic matters is true in the same sense that the earth is smoother than a ping-pong ball, but unhelpful for any real life purpose.
9/11 I was listening to Five Live when first reports came in, went to Sky and saw the second plane hitting the towers, truly scary moment. That and the fact that for a little while there were up to five planes in the air over America unaccounted for. It was a defining moment of this century so far.
Followed by going into Afghanistan before Iraq.
@49:
But as we ALL KNOW, PfP, this recession which started in America, STARTED IN AMERICA.
Anthony wells swingometer translates this data into a Con majority of 82.
40. Mike Smithson.
OK. To clarify:
“A News of the World reporter who suffered from a culture of bullying led by former editor Andy Coulson, who is now David Cameron’s head of communications, has been awarded almost £800,000 for unfair dismissal and disability discrimination.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/nov/23/andy-coulson-now-bullying-payout
61 - Were you calling for Alastair Campbell’s head when he served at the right hand of Sat… Tony.
You know, Alastair Campbell who once punched a fellow journalist?
55- Yes, I’ve been in touch with Morus and look forward to seeing him soon, circumstances permitting.
David Herdson: “And what is the man behind the briefings against David Kelly doing now?”
Both cases have been investigated. Coulson was found culpable and Campbell was cleared.
So when are you going to condemn Coulson?
61. Gabble.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Go back to talking about the economy. That’s repetitive, but at least it’s funny. This is just dull.
Gabble, were you born a moron, or did it come with practice?
62 Michael Howard vs Alistair Campbell is TV gold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-QxBTR9_HU
63 Stars FPT “Stars come on. Massive majority in the House yes. Big majority in the Senate yes but as was seen as long as the GOP stayed as one it was hardly comfortable in the Senate. Bet you are now glad the Hammer didn’t succeed on removing the filibuster now right.”
Mike, any chance of you standing ROtherham next yearand continuing your 100% record of beating Denis MacShane in elections?
61 - Are you worried about what might come out about AC when he is called to the Iraq Enquiry? That can be the only explation for this renewed interest in Coulson.
There are a lot of people who still work in the press who may think this is the time to get their revenge on the AC, dangerous times for Labour.
68 - And let’s not forget Labour’s sickening anti-semitic campaign against Michael Howard in 2005.
Michael Howard’s turds are better than Alastair Campbell and Tony Blair combined.
On topic, presumably 9/11 has been excluded as it happened exclusively in the US, whereas Britain participated in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, though personally I think it’s an artificial distinction.
My own nominations for a top three:
1. 9/11. It has overshadowed everything else even if it’s not technically a UK story.
2. The recession - though it will define the 2010s more than the 2000s.
3. The growth in the use of the internet. It’s not a story as such but it’s at least as significant as the growth of the railways in the 1840s, for example.
3a. If my third nomination doesn’t count because it’s not a ‘proper’ story, then I’d nominate the introduction of CRB checks as the best example of the corrosion of trust that’s taken place.
Missed the last thread but would like to congratulate the winners of POTY.
38 ‘BUT perhaps the boyos from Al Quida found a loophole? And that’s why they picked this particular route?’
SSI, if the real pro terrorists had done that, I have a horrible feeling that the US Coastguard would currently be fishing for aircraft parts in the North Atlantic. This guy looks like a half wit amateur.
Newsworthy isn’t the point. The most significant event was the invasion of Iraq. The London bombings etc are simply a consequence of that.
74 It must be really hard for a father to inform on his son. I saw this story this morning, and I commend the father. It must have been truly awful to have had to do so.
Mike Smithson: “And why did Labour conspire to avoid a proper inquest into Dr Kelly’s death?”
Why do you believe they did? Do you think the coroner was nobbled by Labour? Do you have any evidence? Why do you dismiss the idea that it could just have been the coroner’s informed and professional decision?
“Coroner Nicholas Gardiner said he had received “substantial correspondence from people believing they had relevant evidence” regarding Dr Kelly’s death.
Among the points they made was that Lord Hutton was a judge, not an expert coroner, and also that he did not have the power to compel witnesses to attend.
But Mr Gardiner had concluded there were “no exceptional reasons” for the inquest to be resumed.
He added that an inquest would have done little to halt the controversy over Dr Kelly’s death and he asked that Mrs Kelly and her family be now allowed “to grieve in peace”.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3513812.stm
I lay in bed last night thinking about what political events of the last five years I could remember. I was astonished how few came to mind unprompted. Only two proper political quotes: “from Stalin to Mr Bean” and “no time for a novice”.
It brought home to me how our views are formed by very few swing incidents and they’re not always outwardly that important. David Cameron and the car following the bicycle, for example.
75 - seems like a stupid question, but how precisely did he get the explosives onto the plane? Every article I read is so full of adjectives describing the man himself that the method gets lost each time.
74 - Mike can you delete post 74, i copied and paste the wrong thing to here
John Bercow wants to give David Cameron less time to hold Gordon Brown to account
John Bercow, the Speaker of the House of Commons who is often alleged to have Labour symphathies even though he is a Conservative, is minded to give David Cameron less time to hold Gordon Brown to account.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mandrake/6900968/John-Bercow-wants-to-give-David-Cameron-less-time-to-hold-Gordon-Brown-to-account.html
Gabble. If you wanted to know my thoughts on Coulson, check out what I wrote in July:
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/07/10/how-will-the-phone-tapping-row-affect-things-here/
re 69. I suspect that Denis MacShane’s 41% majority is pretty safe.
There is a good story to tell of Denis and the circumstances of his departure from the BBC.
It ended up with libel damages having to be paid to Reggie Maudling and fellow BBC journalists refusing to take industrial action over his alleged “victimisation”.
68- I do appreciate the filibuster since it’s one of the principal institutional tools that forces a measure of bipartisanship in U.S. government, which would otherwise be completely non-existent today.
And I’m not saying that the Dems have no excuse for failing to obtain more than the limp noodle of a healthcare bill that they seem to be on course for… I’m only saying that people expect a lot from you when your party obtains a level of control in Washington not seen in thirty years, not to mention the soaring promises made over the course of the 2006 and 2008 election campaigns. The Dems have botched their handling of the healthcare legislative process, allowing it to drag on for nearly a year for no apparent purpose. Meanwhile, their other agenda items have been withering on the vine and the economy is stagnating. Arguing that their massive majorities are insufficient to get much done, politically speaking, is a non-starter.
80 It would appear from news reports, that he had constituents parts in powder form in a bag attached to his leg, which was injected with a syringe of some other active ingredient.
I wonder if Gordon Brown and Labour will follow Jon Cruddas’s approach
The inconvenient truths about Tory councils
David Cameron claims that the Conservatives are a progressive party in local government. The facts show the opposite
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/28/inconvenient-truths-tory-councils-progressive
83 - I have faith in your campaigning ability.
Remember MacShane will be campaigning with a slogan of “Gordon Brown: 5 more years”
re 80. I suggest that Cameron might be pleased by that - assuming he’s PM.
80, TR - think this is correct, he had chemicals in a plastic bag taped to his leg or thigh, with some type of hypodermic setup to ignite the thing.
87 - Yes, Cameron could live with that.
85 TSE, what a waste of newsprint. A very badly written article; surely Cruddas is more capable than that?
79. Solid powder explosives sown into his under ware, then an injected liquid explosive was used as a detonator but failed to set off the main charge.
So presumably no check for explosives on his person was carried out, and a bottle smaller than the allowed limit was used for the detonator.
re 77. Gabble - THERE WAS NO INQUEST INTO KELLY’s death. That’s the point. Ministers decided that the Hutton inquiry - which was concerned with other matters - could replace it.
How convenient.
See
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1842752170?ie=UTF8&tag=politicalbett-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=1634&creativeASIN=1842752170
83, S&S - BUT my point still stands, that GOP’s adoption of the (former) Ulster strategy of NO-all-the-time has curious affect of showing that congressional Republicans are far from powerless.
One of the worst things about US congressional politics in past decades has been the fillubuster (or rather threat thereof) becoming the rule rather than the exception.
91 underwear!
90 - I find Mr Cruddas very capable. I think this approach may have more of an effect than crude class war approach.
I’ve always felt that if Labour was serious about denying Cameron a majority, their best strategy, would be to try and split Cameron from the rest of the Tory Party.
85 - that article is so full of holes and half-truths that it almost could have come from Brown himself.
Just an example; Labour love the 10:10 carbon cutting pledge because it sounds good. Except it’s bollocks; the scheme still counts a local authority as successful if it cuts carbon by 3%, not 10%. Many Tory councils which haven’t adopted 10:10 have drawn up their own plans to cut at than the 3% 10:10 will accept as successful.
And in London; that huge figure he’s quoting about the Western extension is found in various Labour press releases. The only problem with it is it is based on the assumption that each and every person who drives a car in the zone at the moment would continue to do so if it was imposed. In other words, it doesn’t take into account the fact that charging keeps people out. And he can bitch about Boris’s fare increases if he wants, but the fact is that the government has just shafted London’s councils out of around £50 million to fund the Freedom Pass scheme - that they were promised 2 years ago, and now have to plug another budget hole.
Re 96 - “to cut more than the 3%”
And thanks all, re: the plane bomber. I honestly read half a dozen articles, none of which explained how he was actually going to do it.
93- Again, I agree with you, but in terms of real electoral politics, the argument doesn’t fly. Bill Clinton, also blessed with large House and Senate majorities, once famously pounded on a podium while yelling “NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!” in describing how the minority congressional Republicans were treating his agenda. This argument did his party no good with the electorate in 1994, and it won’t help them in 2010 either.
Forget class war, Gordon, it’s civil war you should be worried about
…
Forget class war. It is no more relevant to Labour fortunes than Vera Duckworth’s curlers. The conflict that should trouble the party is civil war. Mr Cameron may stand for nothing discernible. Even so, any escalation of government feuding would hand him power faster than a speeding whippet.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/maryriddell/6901418/Forget-class-war-Gordon-its-civil-war-you-should-be-worried-about.html
lol Vera Duckworth’s curlers
83 Stars. Not much done. How close has any President been on this in 100 years. What is your point? How exactly could Obama have pushed anything more aggressive or faster without seeing one or more likely many Democrat Senators bolt as in 94 and watch the Bill fall apart.
BTW I guess you’ll enjoy the next year as the NJ trials get under way. As Gov Christie gets his feet under the table as well who knows what skeletons will tumble out from various cupboards. I don’t mean literally Stars but as it’s NJ i though I’d better make that clear.
Re: Kelly, the entire “sexing up” controversy was used as gigantic red herring. Note that the Pepys of Our Times focused on that distraction, as opposed to defending the indefensible.
My own view is that the Kelly tragedy was an unintended but logical consequence of the school of tabloid journo-politics as practiced in the UK and perfected by Alastair Campbell. Fact that Dr K was told that briefing journos was part of his job only adds to the savage irony.
81 - Re reading David Herdson’s article, I think this post explains why Gabble and the rest of Labour seem so determined to go after Coulson
“Kevin Maguire told me a few months ago that Coulson had transformed the Tory operation. He’s good.
by Mike Smithson July 10th, 2009 at 1:53 pm”
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/07/10/how-will-the-phone-tapping-row-affect-things-here/#comment-1141304
82. David Herdson
Your response to the phone tapping scandal was pure politics ie. even though you accept he had done wrong, you suggested keeping him on until it was politically expedient to ditch him, not because he’d done wrong but because he may prove a liability to your party. Yuk.
Coulson was found to have been involved in the bullying of a man suffering from stress-related depression.
I hope you would condemn this outright and also believe that Cameron, in the absence of any contrition, should sack him, forthwith.
98, S&S - with due respect, 2010 is NOT very similar to 1994. For starters, by that year the old New Deal Dems had been dominating congress for 60 years. And while I can’t say I know or ever knew Newt, I do know that Boehner ain’t no Newt. (Try saying that last sentance fast five times!)
54 “There is a legal process for the investigation of mysterious deaths - Labour avoided that in this case.”
Wow, i thought i paid attention but i didn’t know that last bit - someone scary scared him to death maybe.
92. To be honest, Mike, even the best - and official - case scenario is dreadful for the government re Kelly: that he committed suicide after the pressure became too much. In other words, they drove - bullied - a man to his death. Yes, he was misleading about being the source of Gilligan’s article but there were bigger issues in play: he was right about the dodgy dossier.
67 “Michael Howard vs Alistair Campbell is TV gold.”
Made the “something of the night” comment seem a bit out of order too relative to Campbell.
Gabble, you ignored my question earlier so I repeat it now, since you seem to be pressing the same point: is it your position that someone who has been held to have committed bullying in the workplace should never work again? If not, why do you think the rules should be different here?
102 - TSE. I said a little while back look at who a party attacks - they are worried about them. So Osborne & Coulson come under fire. Same for Mandy from the Tories.
I’m not talking about the casual attempt to ridicule, I’m talking about the consistent week-in week-out attacks.
100- Lots of presidents have brought about major changes, whether in enacting social security, medicare, medicaid, civil rights legislation, going to war, restructuring the tax regime, etc.
But the “reform” we will likely see in healthcare bears some striking features: it doesn’t really seem so big after all (at least in the eyes of the liberal activist who have been fighting for it for so many years), most of its benefits won’t even come into existence until some time after the next presidential election, and most people don’t even want it and believe it will be a net negative for them personally. Somehow, this legislative accomplishment doesn’t seem to add up to much.
I also wonder if liberals can really be convinced that this is “only the first step” and it will be “improved later.” As the Dems are unlikely to have congressional majorities this large again for a very long time, it is tough to see how Congress can be expected to move the ball on healthcare even further to the left anytime soon.
108. antifrank: “…is it your position that someone who has been held to have committed bullying in the workplace should never work again? If not, why do you think the rules should be different here?”
I answered that, possibly to another poster.
If someone acknowledges thay have done wrong and apologises for it, then they may be entitled to a second chance. Coulson has done neither of these things. Even McBride got that far.
There is some terrible hypocrisy on this site. You know it.
110 Stars. True but in a situation of the modern era where if someone steps out of party line a campaign in either party will instantly start up again them retaining their party nomination with dollars flowing from across the country, with their own network CNN or Fox hammering them day after day. With the 24 hour news cycle that surely in most of the areas you cite simply is not comparable anymore now.
104- I don’t blame you for trying to tell your base that Republicans are to blame for not getting more of their wishlist enacted, and I don’t blame you for trying to tell the center that GOP obstruction has prevented you from doing much about employment, the economy, etc. In fact, you should indeed do the best job you can to make that argument. I just don’t expect it to work since I can’t provide you with a single example of when it ever did work (can you give me an example of when a majority party has successfully demonized the minority for its failures?). People just don’t want to hear it.
Gabble, that means that a man who protests his innocence is therefore unemployable. Typical authoritarian stupidity from new Labour.
re: Kelly, don’t need conspiracy theory. Occam’s razor does the trick.
Here’s Reader’s Digest version of how to connect the dots:
1. Kelly briefs journos, but not with the same facility (if that’s the word) as pros like AC.
2. Unpleasentness for Blair & Co results.
3. TB and AC and whomever else was in the room decide that Dr K is as expendible as any other sap caught up in a Fleet Street frenzy. By throwing the baby from the troika, they can slow down the wolves a tad.
4. What they do NOT count on possiblity that a senior defense analyst might NOT be as tough a cookie as they might think. Nor did they anticipate that his reaction to the destruction of his career (which is how I think Dr K saw things) might be (again as he saw it) extreme damage control.
Official snow jobbers did their best to keep as far away from these dots as possible.
103. Let’s get a few things straight then.
- I do condemn what Coulson did at NI re the bullying case that came to tribuneral.
- I do not believe he should be sacked from another job because of what he did - and was known to have done - in a previous one.
- I don’t accept he did wrong re phone-tap; I accept that some of his staff did wrong. If he knew about those techniques and allowed them to continue, that would have been wrong. There was no evidence that was the case. At best, he was lax in oversight on that issue.
- I do recognise that both issues make him vulnerable not because he did wrong but because the issues are complex, involve him and involve wrongdoing. Politically that is a risk as it allows scurrilous journalists, politicians or others to bring the matter up an muddy waters.
Frankly, for this government of all governments to complain about hounding by journalists is vomit-inducing hypocrisy. They came to power on a series of intrusive disclosures into people’s private lives; they drove one of their own employees to his death for revealing that they lied in order to take the country to war - and then f*cked up the war and occupation as well; they gave political officers the right to direct civil servants; they put press manipulation right at the heart of government. And on top of all that, they blew the next generation’s money on monuments to their own benevolence.
114 - antifrank - a lot of, soon to be, ex-mps have been protesting their innocence recently
Gabble’s approach might have it’s benefits. :lol
111 - that’s BS right there. Read what McBride actually said. He was sorry he got caught and that he became the story; he wasn’t remotely sorry for what he was doing.
113, S&S but what about “Martin, Barton and Fish”?
114. antifrank
The fact that the NOTW have paid up would suggest that they accept the verdict.
Has Coulson protested his innocence, since? I don’t think he has.
If this were a Labour advisor, you wouldn’t be apologising for his disgusting behaviour.
66 - woah, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Sean Fear be anything less than immaculately polite.
re 116. So I can take it that you won’t be voting Labour then?
“The fact that the NOTW have paid up would suggest that they accept the verdict.” More likely that they couldn’t be arsed going through all the appeals.
119 or the “do-nothing Eightieth Congress”?
Gabble, I have condemned his actions. I do not regard it as a matter suitable for dismissing him from a subsequent job. To be clear, I also condemn your entire approach to this matter, which is more reminiscent of an official in the Chinese cultural revolution than someone professing loyalty to a mainstream western democratic state. Whatever Andy Coulson did wrong in previous jobs, it does not serve as a ground for dismissing him from a current job. If you have so little interest in due process of law, the sooner your party is reminded of the idea in opposition, the better.
Getting back to the poll, interesting that the Royals did NOT make the cut.
What a relief for them and us!
One other thing disgusted me about the Hutton enquiry - the way the BBC grovelled to the Government & the Director General (I think) resigned. When “F*** you” and two fingers would have been more appropriate from an allegedly independent broadcaster.
As they had been allegedly subject to constant, potty-mouthed bullying from Alistair Campbell, I wonders why they didn’t simply publish the correspondence, record the phone conversations, and broadcast them.
I wonder if there is any way the Tories can authorise an inquest when they get into power? And remove the item from the statute book that allows the Lord Chancellor to direct that an inquest need not be held. Apparently the legislation was supposed to prevent multiple inquests after events like a train crash.
So gabble is it fair for pseudonymous internet trolls to try to hound people out of their jobs on the basis of what they pick up from the newspapers?
And can we stop this whining about hypocrisy. Just to be clear, if Coulson is guilty of everything you think he is guilty of, plus serial goat-molesting, I frankly don’t give a toss provided he helps the tories get elected. Is that clear enough?
122 - I think Nick Palmer would mark him on his canvassing returns as “undecided”.
20 - “Maybe it’s because people are aware of the cyclical nature of economies, and mentally factor in recessions and crashes,”
Tend to agree, Gordon Brown on the other hand………
124 - and what about the Congressional shut-down of 1995? Didn’t do much for the Republicans in 1996.
Though the fact that it turned Monica Lewinsky into Bubba’s Dominoe’s delivery girl did pay the GOP big dividends in 2000!
116. David Herdson: “I do not believe he should be sacked from another job because of what he did - and was known to have done - in a previous one.”
Are you suggesting that Cameron actually knew that Coulson had been involved in the bullying of a mentally ill man and employed him anyway?
I find that astonishing and, if true, raises more serious questions about the suitability of Cameron for office.
The rest of your rant is full of lies and not worthy of reply.
9/11. Without Iraq, Dr Kelly, etc… wouldn’t have happened. Who knows, without 9/11 Iraq probably wouldn’t have been invaded and Tony Blair would quite possibly still be PM and be heading for a fourth general election victory.
You can - although given the chance, I’ll try to get their canvassers to put me down as a possible, just for a laugh.
121 I just get enormously irritated when you have a troll posting repetitive inanities in order to disrupt a thread.
119- Oh boy, that’s going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back! But I don’t think Roosevelt’s successes had much (if anything) to do with his demonization of the unquestionably powerless Republicans of the day. The only useful foil he ever really had was the Supreme Court, until he broke its back in 1937. After that, he won because the people really liked him, because the GOP had been reduced to dust by 1936, and because the huge contingent of conservative southerners within his own party constituted a sort of effective opposition that kept him from drifting too far to the left.
Gabble is a pustulent and syphilitic whore delighted to find out that someone else has a mild case of herpes.
30 - always good for a giggle gabbs
“moderately” the worst recession since records begun - and it may not be over yet…….
134 - Do what some old dears do on election day, tell the Labour party you need help to get to the polling booth on election day, get them to drive you the booth, then vote tory, and then tell them on the way back whom you voted for.
Priceless.
The greatest threat of the last decade is the notable Global Cooling.
And if you don’t believe me, the coming days will convince you.
Didn’t a new Secret Inquest Bill pass in November 2009 ?
124/131- Truman and Clinton successfully played off Congress because it was actually controlled by the GOP. I’m saying that it is nearly impossible for the Dems to make political progress demonizing the GOP these days because the Democrats are in complete control. If the Republicans take back Congress in 2010 (which they won’t), THEN the Dems would have some real traction as Truman and Clinton did.
134 David Herdson
As a perennial floating, if I decide to vote tactically, I always try to get a lift to the polls from the party I am currently voting against.
The schadenfreude will be extra special when I know that not only will I have voted against Labour, but I will have wasted (albeit a tiny fraction) of Lords Sainsbury’s and and Paul’s precious donations…
The biggest concern with the public is with the economy, and that is still where the biggest government lies are being told.
At some point the truth will have to come out.
At the time of the PBR Darling stated that he was borrowing GBP 178 billion. This was a Treasury forecast figure from 6 months before. Yet in the meantime it was known that revenues were tumbling.
Revenues were officially announced in December, and Darling in the PBR maintained the pretence that he was unaware of the fact they had fallen by GBP 50 billion since the forecast was made.
GDP had shrunk to GBP 1.26 trillion.
Borrowing is now at least 228 billion, not the 178 billion mentioned by Darling, and is 18% GDP, not 12% - i.e. double the US situation. Spending is at an all time record 58% of GDP.
http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2009/12/uk-government-spends-58-of-gdp-in-2009.html
It’s what they don’t tell us that is the most shocking.
Hey, S&S, did you notice that we’ve now got an open-seat race for Congress out here, in WA 3rd CD? And that your own Team Evil has got a shot?
139 The Screaming Eagles
Snap - though I wouldn’t go so far as to rub their faces in it afterwards. It is not very polite!
142, S&S - it’s the word “complete” that I’m questioning.
146 - I do have a record of winding up political opponents, especially the stop the war coalition.
125 - If Coulson was behind the Dannatt thing and the Grayling promotion I think he’s the right man in the right job.
I wonder if Cameron knew about the bullying case when he employed him? They certainly knew what they were getting as Coulsons publishing of the drugs and prostitute allegations against Osborne showed.
132 Gabble, a piece of advice. Lay off the booze if you’re planning on using the internet. That way you won’t end up looking like a complete and utter chump.
145- Yes indeed, I was a bit surprised at Baird’s decision (although everybody except for Sen. Byrd has to retire sometime). That race will be a real bellwether if both parties are able to put up solid candidates.
149 tim, it’s clearly all down to the conspiratorial lizards in Wapping.
58 - My company lost people 9/11 and that day is probably the most vivid of my life.
We had people ringing London from New York desperate for news of colleagues.
Hard to describe the mood in the office that day, worse by far than the London bombings.
147- You can question the completeness of control, but I’m saying it’s politically irrelevant. To the Dems go the glory and the responsibility of governing, and you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think that “obstructionist GOP” will sell next year. It might help a bit with the base, but that’s it. I believe even some high-profile Dems have criticized this strategy. In fact, it may do more harm than good, making the Dems look like weak whiners and highlighting their failures when they should instead be arguing that they’ve accomplished great things.
151 Stars see 112.
Is Gabble attempting self-parody this evening?
No doubt - the liar Blair leading us into an illegal war and being responsible for more deaths than Harold Shipman and Peter Sutcliffe put together
151, S&S - you just reminded me, the best part of the recent health care debate in the US Senate (not that that’s saying much) was the GOP forcing Sen Byrd to be carried into the chamber, croaking in righteous wrath like Cato the Elder! Also the amusing spectacle of the Jaysus-freak Sen. Coburn (R-Bible Belt) beseaching the Lord to remove this turbulent solon from the quorom.
As for WA 3rd CD, no doubt that both Ds & Rs will come up with credible contenders. Note that under our state’s Top Two primary system, the top 2 votegetters regardless of party will advance to the 2010 general election. BUT as practicality there will be one from each food group.
Note that the retiring incumbent, Brian Baird, was NOT much liked by either Ds or Rs in the district. Because he’s squirrellyer than Lembit O.
148 TSE
To be fair - it’s just as much fun winding up the Lab/Con Start A War Coalition.
155- I’m not sure if I’m answering you properly, but there is a lot of truth in the proposition that the Dems will sink or swim together, which in turn necessitated Obama using his enormous political capital to take control of his own party early on and push his agenda. He completely failed to do this, somehow convinced that it was best to let Congress take its own course.
He could have whipped his own party’s senators into line with the power of his personality, aura, huge intraparty support, and general national popularity. Now much of that is gone and the opportunity has passed. Now, the Dems’ intraparty sniping and raw feelings are out in the open and are a fact of life, and individual senators can and do feel free to threaten to derail everything if legislation isn’t tailored to their personal whims. That is how it is now, but it didn’t have to be this way. Rahm may have been the architect of this bizarre theory but Obama is its victim.
I’m delighted with the Republicans current strategy of complete obstruction and basing their beliefs on outright lies (”death panels” etc. It is turning off young voters and Hispanic voters at a rate of knots, which will basically ensure an out-and-out right winger will not get the Presidency for more than a decade.
As far as I’m concerned, proper progressive conservative governance will not ever exist in the US until we thoroughly crack down on campaign finance laws. This will not happen as long as we have a right-wing supreme court. The only way for us to amend this is to have Democratic Presidents - so for me, in the short term, executive elections are much more important than legislative majorities.
Secondly, I would hope that the current GOP strategy is showing how dysfunctional the US Senate is, and will give impetus to scrap the filibuster. Harkin is already making some good moves on this - let’s hope the Democrats gain some cullions. Perhaps when Reid falls in 2010, Durbin will be more willing to play hardball.
159 - No, winding the hard left stop the war coalition is much more fun. Especially for a person of my skin colour.
I nearly started riot a few years ago.
160. Clinton failed with healthcare because Senators resented his intrusion into the legislative branch. Obama is aware of this because of his background in the chamber. He was smart not to get down into the details. Affordable healthcare for all and an end to health insurance company abuses are true victories.
139 - my parents did that, it was indeed priceless
162 - Speaking of which, George Galloway is on hunger strike.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1138228.html
Re WA 3rd Congessional, note that is former seat of the late Julia Butler Hansen (D-WA) the first woman elected to Congress from WA State, a true political pioneer and powerhouse. Further note that of the last three members of Congress, two have been women: Jolene Unsoeld (D-WA) the widow of famed mountainclimber Willi Unsoeld; and Linda Smith (R-WA) a fiery evangelical populist, who was nominated in 1994 as a write-in candidate (she got more votes than Unsoeld in the primary even though the latter name was printed on the ballot!) who when last heard of was working on behalf of women caught up in the sexxxxtrade.
My point is that a woman might be just the ticket in this district. Note that two of the (so-far)_ announced candidates are women now serving in the WA State House of Representatives: Democrat Deb Wallace, who several cycles ago knocked off GOP incumbent in an emerging swing leg district) and Republican Jaime Herrera, a freshman who previously served on congressional staff of 5th district Congresswoman and member of House GOP leadership Cathy McMorris Rogers.
165 - Can’t we lock him up in the celebrity big brother house? Forever.
It’s been up on ConHome for 45 minutes, and tim hasn’t mentioned Osborne’s IHT commitment? Shocking.
168 - Because the polls show that public support the Tories IHT proposals
163- Obama basically overcompensated. Clinton exercised too much control (especially Hillary’s behind-closed-doors maneuverings), so Obama thought he should exercise virtually no control. This did make a bill more likely to pass, but greatly watered down the result and made it generally unpopular. Obama should have taken the middle route, applying himself personally with great force right from the beginning, but giving Congress some wiggle room too. Had he done this, he could have had a much stronger bill on his desk in September or October, instead of a bill that merely compels every American to become a customer of the health insurance industry by force of law while forbidding drug re-importation which could have immediately cut customer costs.
139, 164 floater - the REAL trick is after you vote to get them to give you a ride to and from the grocery store!
80 TSE -”Bercow to give front benchers less time to hold Brown to account”. Bercow is trying to suck up to back benchers in case there might be a move to vote him out in the next parliament.
re 132 Gabble what about all your colleagues in the bunker who knew Blair was a bare-faced liar over Iraq and did nothing about it. What should happen to them? Do they still have their Lady Macbeth nightmare moments, I wonder. How’s your conscience?
166- Interesting background info… thanks, SSI.
the US health care bill is like the talking dog. It does NOT have to be very good at it - fact that it exists at all it the real point.
“George Osborne is not for turning on inheritance tax”
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/12/george-osborne-is-not-for-turning-on-inheritance-tax.html
A late xmas pressie for Labour.
Night.
161 Foolishness on a grand scale. See 100 how the GOP must be relieved now the Hammer didn’t succeed on that. Be careful what you wish for if that is it, within a very short time time you might have a GOP House and Senate so you may learn to to relove the filibuster as the GOP did.
160 Stars I think you are shifting from the straightjacket of the constitution to tactics and saying Obama should have charged headlong from the first day. Arguable but plausible, and yet Stars given how many Presidents have come a real cropper on this I seriously doubt any would have acted without huge caution be they GOP or Democrat.
170. That’s a more subtle argument, and one with which I have a lot more sympathy. However, I do think that some of the things lost in this bill (drug reimportation, the public option) do make sense to pass separately. If we let the insurance special interests get their wins on these things for now, we can tackle them again on individually popular measures where they won’t have a leg to stand on.
168. I’m a conservative supporter, but having read that ConHome piece, the idea that families with estates of £650k-£1m are “middle class” is farcical. This announcement to me makes me feel like the Tory leadership is more concerned with electoral announcement than genuinely spending money in ways that would best help the country. Can anyone seriously argue it is a more helpful tax cut than reductions in corporation tax or income tax?
168 - A gift from Osborne, whose family will benefit by a million pounds while we pay down the debt.
178 - Its families with estates of £650k to £2 Million.
168 - I’ve only just seen that. Probably just as well I’ll be away from PB.com tomorrow.
Well done GO on showing the courage of his convictions with regards to the state stealing from the dead. Hopefully one day this loathsome and immoral practice will be rolled back entirely.
177. I would much rather have both parties find it easier to enact and repeal legislation, so we can better test what works and what doesn’t. The filibuster just encourages horse-trading, pork and protecting special interests. I would support getting rid of this undemocratic and unconstitutional means of obstructing legislation whoever is in power.
177- Most presidential power is personal, not strictly constitutional. The presidency is a leadership role. Ergo, Obama needed to lead to get things done, indeed by charging headlong from the first day (as FDR did). This requires courage, but a president without courage isn’t much of a president at all.
Obama has largely abdicated the leadership role to Congress, and Congress has not hesitated to take on that role with relish. Problem is, Congress is wildly unpopular and with good reason. It was a huge, HUGE strategic mistake for Obama to have relinquished so much power to the basketcase of an institution that is Congress.
re: inheritance tax, the GOP demonized the concept by calling it the “death tax” which is creative use of polling and focus groups for ya. Much more persuasive beyond the choir loft than “junk science”!
Way that Dems in WA state got around this, when GOP pushed to repeal the state inheritance tax, was by dedicating the proceeds to education. Of course this didn’t faze the wingnuts. BUT it was persuasive with the swings, and that was the racer’s edge.
180 - This is the retort.
A recent poll by ComRes suggested that the Tory policy still enjoyed support from voters. By 55% to 38% respondents told ComRes that they supported the policy of raising the inheritance tax threshold to £1m.
“Ministers ‘to take control’ of hospital charity cash”
Hundreds of millions of pounds of charity donations to hospitals are to be “nationalised” under an NHS accounting change, which critics say will make it easier to slash health budgets.
Ministers are imposing new rules on NHS charities requiring all donations — including those to specialist children and cancer units, local fundraising campaigns, teaching hospitals and local community trusts — to be listed on a hospital’s balance sheet.
The Charities Commission says that this is “wholly inappropriate” because combining the trust and charity accounts will jeopardise the charity’s autonomy and discourage donations. About £330 million was given to 300 NHS charities in the year to June 2008, and they control an estimated £2 billion of assets. A spokeswoman for the Commission said: “The Charity Commission does not agree with the interpretation of the accounting rules in the Department of Health letter to NHS bodies. We are currently engaging with the Department on this matter.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6969955.ece
179 surely the alleged advantage on your figures is an additional 1,350,000 nil rate band, so a saving of 40% of that = £540 000. So I don’t see how it can save anyone £1 million. I appreciate that a million pounds sounds more impressive but it surely has the drawback of being fictitious?
“JP Morgan may scrap £1.5bn London HQ plan over Labour’s attacks on City”
JP Morgan, the giant US investment bank, has warned the Chancellor it may scrap plans to build a £1.5bn flagship European headquarters in Canary Wharf if politicians don’t rein in their attacks on the City.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6900501/JP-Morgan-may-scrap-1.5bn-London-HQ-plan-over-Labours-attacks-on-City.html
Inheritance taxes are NOT stealing from the dead. Just as the dead cannot be libeled, they can’t be robbed.
This is just the convenient, self-serving rhetoric of the rich and their personal payroll vote. And disengenious as a 3-pound note.
178- That’s a fair argument, but the Dems had better hope that they haven’t lost their golden opportunity to enact something they really like. Over many, many years they may eventually get something more to their liking, but it could take a very long time.
Also, I don’t think they GOP is necessarily nearly as unhappy with the legislation as they claim. Instead, I suspect that the party bigs are secretly pleased that some necessary safety valves will likely be instituted in the healthcare system (coverage for pre-existing conditions, some form of widely available coverage at relatively modest cost to the taxpayer) while allowing the Dems to take the bullets for it. No public option, no Medicare buy-in, plus a potent political issue gained… all in all, not so bad in the end.
“Quarter of MPs to stand down over expenses”
One quarter of the House of Commons will stand down at next election as more than 170 MPs plan to retire in the wake of the Parliamentary expenses scandal, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/6894889/Quarter-of-MPs-to-stand-down-over-expenses.html
“Poorest miss a day of school each week, Tory study claims”
• More than 5% of children ‘are persistent absentees’
• Truancy in England ‘third higher than in 1997′
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/dec/28/school-truancy-rich-poor-divide
Front Pages:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/The-Papers-National-Newspaper-Front-Pages-On-Tuesday-December-29-2009/Media-Gallery/200912415509374?lpos=Home_Left_Promo_Region_0&lid=GALLERY_15509374_The_Papers%3A_National_Newspaper_Front_Pages_On_Tuesday%2C_December_29%2C_2009
186 - Thats just from Osbornes mum and dad, what about his wifes parents.
The total is £1,080,000 for the Osborne Family and the same for the Camerons.
real question re: inheritance taxes is the threshold. Personally am in favor of keeping it high enough so that it does soak the rich, but not so low as it begins to undercut support.
BTW one of the leading proponents of inheritance taxes in my neck o’ the woods is William H. Gates, Jr. aka Daddy Gates, the father of Billionaire Bill.
“Cabinet divided over ‘class war’ attacks on Cameron”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cabinet-divided-over-class-war-attacks-on-cameron-1851455.html
193 - Are you privvy to the wills of the Cameron’s and Osborne’s parents and inlaws?
“No need for new laws over confronting burglars, Tories told”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-need-for-new-laws-over-confronting-burglars-tories-told-1852047.html
189. The big danger for the GOP is if they fail in repealing it (which seems likely) and this legislation comes to be looked at as populations in other developed countries look at their health systems. Opposing healthcare for all might be looked back on in a similar manner to opposing desegregation.
99 Kristin - From that Mary Riddell article, the political understatement of the decade:
“It’s no secret that Gordon hasn’t worked out as well as we’d hoped,” a Cabinet minister tells me
Re: class war as a strategy/tactic for Labour in 2010, believe its a bad idea. Not quite as cynical as the GOP health care strategy. But bad enough to ensure that the pain will not be worth the gain.
England (no, not the UK) becoming the most crowded country in the world’s most crowded continent. All my life, 50’s onward, the Netherlands held that dubious status. Thanks to NuLabour inviting the third world to come and live here, we have taken over.
It is difficult to say what will have the biggest long term impact, but personally I think that the first week of October 2007 with Cameron’s speech to the Conservative Conference, Brown’s Iraq visit gaff and his retreat from the election that never was could in the long term be seen as the events which ended Brown and Labour as a credible Government. Certainly that week was a game changer.
Blair’s defeat on 42 days was also big as it was the end of the myth of the invincible New Labour Party.
The 2006 locals and the 2008 London Assembly/Mayoral election may also prove to be seen as the start of a political re-alignment.
193 - 4.3 million people is a lot more than the lies from Labour about only 3000 estates being subject to the death tax
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1239047/Death-duty-hit-4-million-say-Tories.html
With the increase in NI Labour’s war on the middle class continues
197 SthLondonNick - Yes, very obliging of the DPP to give all this extra publicity to this very popular proposal of Grayling’s. Somehow I don’t think the voters will agree with Keir Starmer that the law is absolutely perfect on this issue.
198- It might have become that sort of watershed issue had the Dems really passed a universal single-payer system. Instead, there is as much criticism of this bill from the left as from the right, so there will always be ample room to say that this bill had good intentions but was the wrong bill (for a wide array of reasons). Thus, this can’t really be portrayed as right vs. wrong, good vs. evil, the way desegregation could.
Getting back to the poll at the top, one thing I’ve already mentioned is large number of older voters - and esp. men - who mentioned the parliamentary expenses scandal.
Would be interesting to see the party breakdown for this particular subset, who by definition are more likely to vote than the electorate at large.
My guess is that Tories are somewhat overrepresented. Which could be part of the reason why David Cameron’s Tories are flirting right around majority/minority territory as opposed to tearing Labour a new one.
Maybe this year well end with some positive news for us all.
Apparently George Galloway is on hunger strike in Egypt because the authorities there wont let his little food convoy enter the Gaza Strip via his desired route
Im hoping the authorities hold out for a long time with catboy….
178 - IHT is shown to be consistently unpopular, not least by the recent ComRes poll. As it is a commitment for a Parliament not the first budget you deal with it, when the finances are in much better shape. As they have made clear, NI and Corporation Tax are the main priorities. Getting people back into work through private sector growth will widen the tax base and increase revenues, decreasing the need for tax rises to fund everything we do. Finally a solid review of the public sector and the withdrawal of anything not absolutely necessary for helping the worst off or for providing services that cannot be provided at an acceptable cost by the private sector.
Frankly I would rather abolish IHT completely. You’re taxed on your income, on your savings, on your investments and then it is all taxed once more.
It is so damn frustrating when a tax cut is treated as the govt giving money away. It isn’t. It is the government choosing not appropriate cash under threat of legal penalty. Tax cuts are simply reducing the govt’s legal appropriation of your own money. Govts should only tax for necessary services.
On topic - the two things that stand head and shoulders above the rest for me are Iraq and the recent financial meltdown.
S&S - “The Dems can and do try to pass off responsibility for their disappointments by pointing to GOP obstruction, but I just don’t see that people are buying it. ”
The congressional democrat polling score is in the doldrums but the GOP score is even worse!
204, S&S - you are under-egging the cake. Re: level of left Dem angst, thing that impresses is that it’s LESS than either you or I might have predicted, and certainly less that you are arguing. In part because the polls, the economy and most esp. the GOP are scaring the crap out of us pointy heads!
206 He could do with a diet anyway.
198 - What is interesting is that, at the moment, the Republicans think that campaigning on ‘GOP will repeal health care bill’ will help them whilst the Dems think that campaigning on ‘GOP will repeal health care bill’ will help them too. I suppose that’s the ultimate sign of a polarised electorate.
193. Highly misleading. If you can aggregate like that you also need to disaggregate at the next level down, so that the gain has to be divided between GO and his siblings/ Mrs O and her siblings. Your concept of “family” is an artificial construct.
Re Kelly - I’ve always thought that the hectoring, tongue lashing (in public) by the Committee and McKinlay in particular may well have been what tipped him over the edge. He was publically humiliated.
Why have you scored out “the Labour government’s”? Are you implying Brown, Straw, Hoon and the rest of them aren’t equally culpable?
BTW, did you guys notice that last week RUDY GIULIANI took himself out of contention for 2010, both for the NY Governors AND US Senate races?
hey, S&S, I’ve got a theory, that one of the nails in old Lead Foot’s coffin, was his using the Weight Watchers attack against yer Big Boy? Am I right?
208- I don’t know if you are arguing that the Dems are likely to make gains in next year’s elections but, if you are, I think you are virtually alone on that one!
209- It’s a scary time to be in power, no matter your political stripe. I don’t envy the Dems one bit, heading into next year.
162 TSE
I hadn’t realised your skin colour was worthy of note. Tell me. Do you suffer discrimination because you are a solicitor?
217 - No, just that support for them electorally is not for positive reasons, in fact, the poll showing how a ‘tea party’ movement would score better than the GOP was probably themost interesting one of the year and I’d like to see others to see if this is a widespread view.
S&S, here is link to State Rep. Herrera’s official legislative website
http://hrc.leg.wa.gov/Herrera/
There are some other announced GOPers, but am not going to chase down THERE pixs!
Where’s valleyboy? Havent seen him on here tonight!
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
All about holding onto the 4-0 lead!!!!!!!!
218 - There is a strange belief on the left, that if you’re an ethnic minority, if you’re not voting Labour, then you’re an uncle tom.
Now as a muslim** who supported the invasion of Iraq, i really pissed off a lefty sensibilities*
Discrimination as a solicitor is a way of life, only my parents and my wife love me.
*granted, I did say I supported the war on Iraq, because i wanted cheaper oil.
** muslim in the loosest sense of the word.
215- I never trusted that Giuliani would jump in (even despite the New York Daily News report that he was in). He’s always exuded flakiness in political matters, so it isn’t a real surprise.
216- Wow, I don’t know if it was the fat jokes that doomed Corzine, or what. There were so many strikes against him, but also so many factors working in his favor. Actually, it came as a suprise that he lost given all those advantages and I was still predicting his triumph the day of the election.
217 - I think next year will see little change, a few GOP gains in the House and the Senate pretty much unchanged. I think there is still a chance for a broader public option under Obama but it would probably have to come shortly after a clear re-election win for him and increased Democratic majorities in the Senate in 2012 (along with a Democrat defeating Lieberman’s re-election bid that year).
Britain’s economy grew more slowly in each year of the noughties than it did in any other decade since the war.
A Financial Times analysis of official data shows that output grew by 1.7 per cent on average every year from 2000 to 2009. In the 1960s, by comparison, it rose by an average of 3.1 per cent a year.
The sluggish economic performance of the past decade took place against a backdrop of rising population – a factor that tends to boost output, not shrink it…
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1dbc1856-f3e8-11de-ac55-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1
222 FTE
I was only interested in the solicitor bit. Your exclusion from decent society for that seems eminently reasonable.
223, S&S - personally think 9/11 did for Giuliani’s political prospects what Inchon did for his soulmate, Macarthur. Sudden inflation followed by slow but inevitable deflation.
225 - jtc - makes a bit of a sham of Darlings growth predictions in the PBR.
198 “The big danger for the GOP is if they fail in repealing it (which seems likely) and this legislation comes to be looked at as populations in other developed countries look at their health systems.”
Time will tell but i doubt that will happen. Things like the NHS over here were an expression of something that doesn’t exist in the states and increasingly doesn’t exist here any more either and so although the semi-religious support for the NHS is still pretty strong here, it’s nowhere near what it was and will gradually fade.
I think any kind of socialized health system in the states will continue to be seen as an imposition by one group and never enough for another group and be an endless source of friction.
226 - My best icebreaker, is when I mentioned i worked on the bank charges case, on behalf of the banks.
207. One problem with IHT is the rate. The world average is about 20%. Britain has one of the highest rates at 40%.
Australia and Italy have 0%. France and Germany are very low. If families are not able to own assets, due to a tax, such as homes, or keep their savings, then the state is all powerful.
Money beyond 25 quid for a shop, and 20,000 for a car is about power. Do we want the government all powerful, and families continually subservient to the state?
The answer is yes if you are Gordon Brown.
What happens is that anyone genuinely wealthy either does not stay in Britain, or their money doesn’t. The only people who can buy nice houses in Britain etc then become foreigners or non doms, who give donations to the political parties. Brits have to hide their wealth overseas, legally or illegally, and play games with politicians and accountants.
It would make more sense to either get rid of IHT and permit wealth to exist, or reduce its rate so that it doesn’t become the reason people live and invest abroad. With a competitive rate though, it raises so little it might as well be got rid of.
If the British people really hate the idea of private wealth, and prefer state power over everything, the country will fade away. The City is our biggest industry. As a nation we are in the wealth business.
Unless we can get our heads around what our chief business is, we are not likely to remain successful at it much longer. We cannot afford the luxury of anti-wealth attitudes if we want to succeed in the world.
We are not a manufacturing economy. We need wealthy people to sell our services to. But many prefer economic failure, and endless debt to permitting private wealth to exist. That however, means unemployment for millions longer term. Perhaps it is time for some people to take their chips off their shoulders.
229 MrJones
“socialized” - I thought this an odd word to use of a health care system, till I checked my American dictionary and found that it can mean “to place under government or group ownership or control.”
Presumably Republicans will wish to dismantle the health care provision for veterans and politicians?
228. http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2009/12/uk-government-spends-58-of-gdp-in-2009.html
The figures given by Darling in the PBR were false and he knew it.
230 TSE
234 - That’s possibly the nicest reaction i’ve ever had. Usually people are ready to come after me with pitchforks.
FPT. Been away from the computer for several hours, so amused to return and see the reaction my last couple of brief comments provoked. TSE, if pointing out that Tony Blair is a Tory means I’ve got more in common with Wage Slave than with Stuart Dickson, then perhaps it means that so does Alex Salmond. After all he said this in 1994 - “The trouble with Tony Blair is that he’s a Tory. He’s a nice Tory, he’s got a nice hair cut, but he’s still a Tory.”
Also notable how our modestly self-styled ‘Queen of the Funnies’ goes all pious and literalistic whenever anyone points out her own inconsistencies and double-standards. OK, I’ll follow you down that road, Plato. By making the impossible demand of a link from me when I brought up something that Andrew Neil had said on ‘This Week’ a year or two back, you were effectively questioning my honesty. I therefore don’t see why I or anyone else should take you at your own word when you, for instance, constantly (and conveniently) remind us that you are “not a Tory”. So no, citing your own blog and your own previous comments here do not really cut it on this topic. Photographic evidence of yourself in the polling booth marking a cross by the name of a Labour candidate has now become required.
For now I’d probably better draw a veil over the credibility of your status as a “card carrying liberatian”.
230 - Eagles
I worked unofficially for a few people on the other side, they all won.
ps - thanks for your advice re my son’s redundancy. He accepted an out of court settlement, they got off lightly imo but sadly he thought they’d drag it out in the hope he wouldn’t survive his leukaemia. XXXXX (replace with suitable sweary word)
224: “217 - I think next year will see little change, a few GOP gains in the House and the Senate pretty much unchanged.”
If that happens, it will rightly be seen as a huge success for the Dems. Frankly, I’d currently suggest there is only about a 10% chance of the Dems doing this well. The current most likely scenario would be at a GOP House gain of about 20 and a GOP Senate gain of about two.
“… and increased Democratic majorities in the Senate in 2012″
This is also quite unlikely, given that in 2012 the Dems currently have 26 seats that will be up for re-election (including Lieberman and Sanders), while the GOP has only nine seats in play.
237 - Well I’m glad he got something, the way his employers behaved was a scandal.
236 - So you’re comparing yourself to Alex Salmond?
239 - you’re not wrong. It came down to about 3 months salary
but to give him credit he is much happier to have it all behind him. The extra stress is not good for someone in his position.
Difficult to choose between 7th July and both wars in Iraq/Afghanistan.
The fact that the same Labour government that was elected in 1997 when I was at school is still in power is also quite a story in my opinion.
I’m one of those who can’t quite believe the first decade of the 21st century is over already. “21st century” still has a connotation of being in the future for me, with spaceships and Mars colonisation thrown in!
240. TSE - is that really the best you can do?
237 - Unofficially, I too have helped some people reclaim bank charges. I’m suprised the OFT gave up so easily, there was one avenue that could have helped those, who incurred bank charges for failed DD’s under the bank charge amount
243 - Not really. I can do so much better.
245. “Not really. I can do so much better.”
As Ms Plato might say - link? Or you could always just show us now, of course.
238- Sorry, in 2012 it will be 24 up for re-election in the Dem column vs. 9 up for re-election in the GOP column.
241 - Assuming he didn’t sign a non disclosure agreement, you can still ask for more from them
Imagine the headline in one of the papers, on how badly they treated a cancer sufferer.
245 TSE
So many men have said that.
246 james
We had the same thought!
246 - A hundred and fifty odd votes in POTY would imply I do write material that’s worth reading.
244 - yes I was suprised too. I never claimed myself but recently when checking a little used account ( paypal payments only ) I found I had incured over £200 in charges for a 65p overdraft
at the same time various other linked accounts had 5 figure sums sitting in them. Normally I would have noticed sooner but it was during the time when I spent most of my time either at the hospital or zoning out on here. They really are chancers.
249 - Not me though.
I was so chuffed, when i read an article that linked super high virlity and men that have twins.
S&S, now that I know someone of power and influence in NJ governing cirles, perhaps you could help advance one of my dreams (for subsidizing my old age):
Establishing the New Jersey Turnpike West Welcome Center . . . a few miles east of Seattle!
Think of what the mountain vistas would do to improve the reputation of the Garden State!
Personally think the best way to launch this would be with a Bruce Springsteen concert at the famous “The Gorge” amphitheater at George, Washington!
And play your cards right, and I might let you share the vending machine contract with Jack W!!!
251 TSE
That’s like saying all of Wordsworth’s poems were masterpieces! He wrote some really bad doggerel. You too can fall below your own high standards.
251. I appear to be going round in circles, but I can only ask the obvious question - is that really the best you can do?
248 - they drafted in a lawyer and he did sign something. Like I said he has put it behind him, he just wants to get on with his life and should be getting married this year. But yes I was ready to go to the papers, but Mum’s have to know when to butt out of things.
254- Wow, that’s just the sort of innovative thinking that would have been highly valued in the Corzine administration! You missed your calling, SSI…
255 - Oldnat, I do like you, a lot, you’re a man of erudition.
253 TSE
“Vanity, thy name is man”
Or as Mr Humphries said in “Are You Being Served” - “Deceit, thy name is man”.
256 - No.
232 “I thought this an odd word to use of a health care system”
Why? The NHS was always concieved as a socialist thing.
Eagles, careful now, I have a friend with twins and triplets.
259 TSE
“a man of erudition.”
You mistake me, sir. I’m from Ayrshire - I know not your “erudition”.
261. Perhaps those one-hundred-and-fifty voters thought they were voting for the One-Word Poster of the Year.
260 - Vanity is one of my major weaknesses.
Deceit on the other hand, we’ll I am a solicitor.
pardon my language but WTF..
Ministers ‘to take control’ of hospital charity cash.
Hundreds of millions of pounds of charity donations to hospitals are to be “nationalised” under an NHS accounting change, which critics say will make it easier to slash health budgets.
Ministers are imposing new rules on NHS charities requiring all donations — including those to specialist children and cancer units, local fundraising campaigns, teaching hospitals and local community trusts — to be listed on a hospital’s balance sheet.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6969955.ece
265 - It’s a village, in the North Yorkshire, pronounced Erra duition.
There are some good things, that do exist outside of Scotland.
262. “Why? The NHS was always concieved as a socialist thing.”
And yet that was one part of the Attlee legacy that Mrs Thatcher made no real effort to reverse. So she was a socialist?
257 - Well if they don’t stick to their side of the agreement, you can take them to the cleaners.
263 - I’m expecting twins in the new year
271 - Rather my wife is
269 No.
262 MrJones
“The NHS was always concieved as a socialist thing.”
You should look at the history, as opposed to Labour Party propaganda. Beveridge was a Liberal, and his Report was accepted by all the major UK parties. I’ll grant you that the model Bevan adopted for England & Wales was significantly based on the Scottish experiments in social health care, as Jennie Lee described to him, but even those were established under both Liberal and Labour administrations.
in short - you are wrong.
265 - No
273. Looks like TSE has got serious competition for OWPOTY next year.
276 - Yes
274 In short, *yawn*
Eagles, I know about the twins
I wonder if she has double the hormones ? 
279 - She 100 times the hormones.
274. On second thoughts, that’s three words, isn’t it? Seems you’ve yet to fully get the hang of this, old boy.
TSE
I’ve always been anti-Tory since the wife of the local laird stopped the Bentley to tell me off for collecting conkers on her driveway in the 1950s. Conkers are the property of all - one can make tea from them, and all proper tea is theft (Boom, boom).
However, you are a Tory that it would be fun to have a drink with.
Mandy’s turned up at last, in the the Times, giving advice to parents on well parenting.
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article6969872.ece
I hate the BNP as much as anyone, but is pork barrel politics really the answer?
http://www.birminghampost.net/news/politics-news/2009/12/14/govt-gives-cash-to-working-class-communiities-to-discourage-far-right-support-65233-25388741/
278 MrJones
Why am I not surprised that the truth bores you? Your preconceptions are much more comfortable.
282 - The more I think about it, I’m less of a tory, and more of a liberal and radical.
I think I’ve realised that the Tories are the least worst option, and the tories have done some good things in the past, and might do so again.
285 lol, ironic given the preconceptions that led to your first reply.
284. That works for BNP either way i.e “they only give a **** when they’re scared you’ll vote for us - so vote for us some more and they might fix the heating in your council block that’s been messed up for 30 years” etc.
283 Kristin
That advice is so ridiculously patronising. It’s almost mesmerisingly bad.
I can’t believe someone like Mandelson who used to be so good at spin has fallen so far.
284 - I’ve come to the conclusion that the only way Labour will respond properly to the needs and worries of the WWC, is when the BNP gets an MP.
282 - I’d love to have a drink with you too, hell I’ll even wear my kilt
Before I forget, I must just comment on Morus’ well-meaning but hopelessly idealised characterisation of PB.com in response to Angel at 317 on the previous thread -
“Angel - this is about the most cross-partisan site on the interweb. Set up by a Lib Dem, we get everything from former Communist Labour MPs, right the way through to old fashioned high Tories. All are welcome, but the prevailing mood tends to match the mood of the nation, so the noise is being made on the Centre Right at the moment. Make good, intelligent points - or give good betting tips - and you will be beloved, irrespective of party affiliation.”
I’ve always appreciated that people who post here are self-selecting, so moaning about the overwhelming Tory bias is the equivalent of moaning about the weather. But let’s call a spade a spade. This site at present does not come anywhere close to “matching” the mood of the nation. The centre of gravity here is light-years to the right of the country as a whole. And I regret to say the making of good, intelligent points is no longer the sole path to “beloved” status that it once was (probably quite recently). Repeatedly pointing out that Gordon Brown is a retard and has sight in only one eye now provides a convenient short-cut.
It also has to be said that Tories get away with murder here in a way that non-Tories simply do not, but that’s inevitable given the strength in numbers.
287 MrJones
I’m absolutely sure that you were saying something.
292 lol some more - you’re not as clever as you think you are mate - but i’m not interested enough to argue.
289 They can’t - it’s psychological not really politics at all. Shame really as it will all end in tears.
291 - It also has to be said that Tories get away with murder here in a way that non-Tories simply do not, but that’s inevitable given the strength in numbers.
Yet an SNP poster wanted to use a knife on an english poster in recent days.
291 James Kelly
“Tories get away with murder”. Not just them - have you forgotten your namesake? Labour do it for real - or so you might say, I couldn’t possibly comment.
294. “Yet an SNP poster wanted to use a knife on an english poster in recent days.”
This time I really am going to say, very seriously - link, please?
288 - wibbler.. the Times leader gives him short shrift..
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6969854.ece
296 - Here you go
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/12/28/is-this-further-ammunition-for-the-anti-brown-plotters/#comment-1361389
293 MrJones
I think I’ll claim a victory on that little spat. Chickens win nothing.
298. Oh, wow.
300 James Kelly
Yup. I groaned internally when you asked for clarification of that! Lawyers, like TSE, and historians, like me, are trained in remembering and accessing relevant data.
The difference is that historians use the data to describe the truth as they see it. Lawyers describe the truth as their clients see it.
300/301 - In MalcolmG’s defence, I think we know him well enough to know he’s a passionate Scotsman, and he does take an enormous amount of winding up.
However, if a new visitor to this site, saw that, they’d be worried, and plus your comment
“It also has to be said that Tories get away with murder here in a way that non-Tories simply do not, but that’s inevitable given the strength in numbers”
appealled to my sense of mischief
289. it might just make them redouble their efforts to import even more voters. It makes the actions of Shirley Porter seem amateurish by comparison.
302 TSE
“my sense of mischief”
We’d never have guessed you had that.
302. Hmm. It would appeal to my own sense of mischief to point out that it’s only been a day or two since Martin Coxall (I think it was) called for Gordon Brown to be “taken out and shot through the brain-stem” - for the good of the country. So perhaps the fact that you recalled MalcolmG being his normal robust self rather than Mr Coxall’s contribution rather illustrates my point about Tories getting away with murder where non-Tories would not.
However, I suppose to be consistent I’ve now got to go away and track down the link, which will probably take several hours…
301 - Actually i came very close to undertaking a history degree.
301. Or, historians use pre selected information to create a narrative that fits their little prejudices or marxist perversions?
An historian is no more a purveyor of a truthful past, then a Sun journalist (or any journalist) is a purveyor of the present.
306. If you did, you would know, that oldnat in 301 is talking rubbish.
Sheesh , when’s this global warming arriving? I’ve a long drive down to Derbyshire this week and the weather reports don’t look that encouraging.
305 - I think you mean this one. To be fair to Martin Coxall, he was talking about it being good for Labour.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/12/26/the-2009-pb-poster-of-the-year-the-final-round/#comment-1360227
306 TSE
Doesn’t surprise me, I seriously considered studying law. The skills in both are pretty similar.
307 notme
Certainly some historians do. On the other hand few of them would be so obvious in revealing their prejudices as you. “prejudices” “perversions”? Methinks you do protest too much (and very inadequately).
307 - Clearly you’ve never heard of David Irving.
311 - I pretty much decided at the last moment, and regretted it when I made the decision. However, once I got to uni, i rather enjoyed the decision.
308 notme
I love this style of academic analysis of yours! No need to provide any evidence of anything. Just insult people. in which academic institution did you learn this distinctive style of intellectual analysis?
Kristin- Don’t you know since the world stopped getting warmer, it’s now called climate change….And if this is the problem, do we start ripping out the insulation to do our bit to reverse the trend?
Right time for me to say toodle pip, Oldnat, you’ve been your usual charming self, thank you for a wonderful evening of debate.
316 TSE
Goodnight
re 291. The team that’s winning is the team that shouts loudest. Just go back and look at threads from September 2007 or in the run-up to the 2005 general election.
There were long periods when the only regular Tory poster was Sean Fear.
Most of the moderation and comments/posters that get blocked are from the right.
319. “The team that’s winning is the team that shouts loudest.”
That’s true, but Morus’ claim went further than that - he said that the mood here matches the mood of the nation. Given that probably something in the region of 70%+ of posts are Tory-sympathetic, that’s an impossible claim to justify. Morus also characterised the prevailing mood here as “centre-right” - I’d be slightly dubious about the “centre” bit.
But, as I conceded, posters here are self-selecting, and complaining about the Tory bias is the equivalent of complaining about the weather. I just think a spade should be called a spade. I’ll be interested to see if the mood on this site does swing back (if you’ll forgive the phrase) once the Tories become unpopular again - but it could be that the Tory dominance has become institutionalised. What might happen is that this could become a base for Conservative griping about their own party’s shortcomings in government.
319 Mike Smithson
“The team that’s winning is the team that shouts loudest.”
Which is an interesting assertion since SNP posters here seem to be more prolific posters than their numerical support within the UK would suggest. Also that Labour in Scotland are demonising what they describe as the “cybernats”.
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Mike,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
321. I think the phenomenon of SNP posters on this site can be explained in two words - Stuart Dickson. His indefatigability provides a sort of safe space and makes us feel that we are not alone - I certainly would never have started posting here if I hadn’t seen his contributions. It must be - to put it mildly - somewhat off-putting for potential new Labour posters when they see the way a thoroughly reasonable and mild-mannered poster like Nick Palmer gets routinely ripped to shreds. In a way, it’s no surprise that the likes of Tim and Gabble are left as the leading Labour posters these days - you’d need to be that thickskinned and brazen to have the heart to continue.
322 James Kelly
I accept your point to an extent. Without Stuart, yourself, marcia and others posting here, I probably wouldn’t have joined in.
However, we are all subject to a (perfectly reasonable) attack from the Brits here, and that doesn’t stop us. So why are Labour (New/Old/past sell by date) so reluctant to post?
James Kelly - you make a fair-point, and it was a romaticised description. Let me put it a more precise way: PB is an exaggeration of the mood of the nation, rather than a reflection. That’s true.
On Centre-Right vs Right, and the extent to which you need be erudite to be beloved: ok, there is no doubt that there exists a subculture on PB.com which is less erudite and cruder in its politics - I tend to ignore it. The substantive posts, the ones that I read, I think of as the real heart of the site, and they constitute the bulk on here still. I like to think that even our rabid partisan name calling is nicer than elsewhere, but to be honest I overlook a lot of it unless it requires moderation - there is enough good stuff to filter out much of that, and that was the partial picture I was portraying.
I would suggest some sort of way to solve the problem you talk about, but for two factors - firstly, I have absolutely no doubt that PB.com will swing left quickly enough if the Conservatives win the election, and secondly because PB.com is an organic sort of place and light-touch moderation and letting the conversation meander as it likes has become integral to the tenor of the site.
I think regular posters try to protect a newbie who is clearly not trolling from serious criticism, but there is a skin-thickness threshold in joining any political debate online, and I think we’re already about as well-behaved as anywhere else.
I don’t think any bias becomes institutionalised - the reason being that the markets and polls provide enough incentive to think outside of that prism, and we’ve already seen significant changes in overall political leaning.
The one part that I really object to, though, is the idea that the Left are treated more harshly in moderation - James might feel that the Right get away with too much (the moderation is light-touch after all), but there’s no way the Left is treated more harshly. At least 9/10 posts that I delete are from the Right, and I can’t remember more than one or two from the left in the last couple of years. Guilty of light-touch, but not of perverse moderation.
Anyway, them’s my thoughts…
Hey S&S - I’ve just sent you an email.
325- Thanks, I’ll take a look!
324. Morus, I’ll respond to your final point on the next thread.