Is this going to be the date?
November 3rd, 2009
Could Gord be planning to go a bit earlier?
What’s likely to be the first of many election date rumours has started circulating this afternoon with suggestions that key figures within the Labour party have been told “to prepare for March 25th”.
Who has been saying what to whom I have no idea. But going a few weeks early is about the last tactical advantage that Brown can deploy and it does make a sort of sense.
March 25th, though, would be odd because we would still be in winter time. The clock’s go back the following Sunday and you would assume that the longer days would be something that Labour tacticians might want.
I’m not convinced but if you want a flutter the prices are good. 
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
Douglas Hurd
1 - Gah! It was a Geoff!
Tipped March at 25/1 months ago so I hope so.
FPT
Dan Hannan.
Complete and utter tool.
It all comes down, as expected, to one man. Václav Klaus finds himself, like the protestor at Tiananmen Square exactly 20 years ago, standing alone against the tanks. Will he scramble out of their path at the last moment?
President Klaus is a clever man and, unlike the majority of its supporters, he has read the Lisbon Treaty. He knows perfectly well that the proposed protocol is meangingless. He understands, too, the magnitude of what is at stake. This is his once-in-a-lifetime chance to side with the peoples against the apparatchiks, to be a hero on a continent where they are in short supply. As President, he has an unambiguous veto over foreign treaties. And he takes seriously his oath of office, wherein he swore to uphold the constitution of the republic.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100015529/will-vaclav-klaus-sign/
“Inside track Dan” The man in the know Dan Hannan posted that at 13.55 PM Today.
Wonder what time Klaus signed.
Eric RIP?
Before the Budget, before the NI tax rise and before Q1 may dip into decline after presumed Q4 growth. Makes sense.
I guess it would mean no more bad news budgets before the GE and only 1 GDP figure before the poll ?
3 Calling Dan Hannan a complete and utter tool is an insult to tools. At least tools are useful for something.
The clock’s go back
1/ eat’s shoot’s and leave’s
2/ they go forward don’t they?
3. Complete and utter tool.
Physician, heal thyself.
What sort of oil goes in a tractor again tim?
When are apples in season?
What’s the string called you feed into the machine that stacks hay?
What’s a cow?
Commenting on the previous thread, I’m grumpier than normal, ‘cos I’ve got the flue, (not that one) and I’m stuck in and I hate that.
Oh yes, ‘ol Mad Dan, I wonder what excuse he’ll come up with for, ‘not’ switching to UKIP.
3,7, Can you mark your posts “off topic” as Mr Hannan will not be standing in the GE
Telescoping the campaign to keep him out of the public eye as much as possible.
No matter; there is still less to Brown than meets the eye - even when he isn’t there at all.
Darling rewriting history
“What’s a cow?”
Not a sheep?
Are we going to get a General Election….I wonder! Wouldn’t put it past Gordon Brown to come up with an excuse for not having one.
I see the Beeb is saying the Lisbon treaty’s been ratified.
I hope it isnt March 25th, I’ve already booked my annual leave around a May 6th Polling day….
7 - Klaus signed one hour and five minutes after the “insider” Hannan posted that nonsense.
The sooner the better.
WRT the Yougov poll, the innards of it are very good for the Conservatives. They lead by 16% on the forced choice question, and by 13% on the economic competence question. Brown’s approval rating is minus 48%.
UKIP and the BNP also poll well, with 4% each (5% each in the North of England, 8%, and 4%, respectively among the over 55’s.) Overall, this represents a striking shift rightwards in voting intentions since 2005.
Where are Labour going to get the money to fight both a GE in March and Locals including London in May or could they pull the locals forward?
Election in March - so it will be the Tories who introduce the 50% income tax rate!
Judging from the intensity with which liam byrne is gazing adoringly at Darling we can only conclude he loves him and wants to have his babies.
I doubt that Darling will explain why Brown forced Lloyds and HBOS to merge and is now busy splitting bits off.
FPT 135 Alistair
We probably ought to have a thorough reassessment of and debate on our relationship with Europe.
The key to Cameron achieving successful reform of the EU lies with the ECR alliance. The UK are likely to achieve far more in negotiation if we are part of a group which has a platform for change that is clear, consistent, feasible and popular. The group should also be stable and growing.
The first task for Cameron and Hague must be to stabilise the ECR group and ensure it is provided with adequate resources to develop and communicate consistent policies.
The threat of the ECR to the EU status quo has been demonstrated by Milliband’s and Labour’s smear campaign designed to destabilise the group.
Mad Dan update
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/danielhannan/
Churchill! told you so.
Dan Hannan.
Complete and utter tool. spake tim.
Let’s compare political careers shall we. Dan Hannan, MEP. tim internet tool who spends 17-18 hours per day, every day ranting about the $$ on the internet, Hmmmmm, let’s spot the failure.
23
Seeing the Left getting all tetchy over Mr Hannan never ceases to entertain. And all because he humiliated Hero Gordon on YouTube. Gordon was not to be outdone though - he went on to humiliate himself on YouTube a few weeks later.
5. Plausible.
I rather think there’ll be no growth in Q4 either though. If so, this would cause MacSporran agonies of indecision as the big scaredy cat dithered over whether to stick with March or postpone and hope foe better news in April.
Nice to think though that we may have less than 5 months of this useless bum’s misrule to go.
22. Never in the field of human conflict has one MEP excercised so many lefties…
expecting BBC R5 to cut away from Darling after his statement but before Osborne has chance to get well and truly stuck in.
Go to Pienaar and have him tell us what Darling just said.
Avoids possible issues with Q1 2010 GDP figures.
So.. Brown would have to go to the Palace in mid-February ish.
High chance of a poor [for Labour] ICM or YouGov poll about then giving him the excuse to sit tight for another week. Or two…
After all, things can only get better…
18. A good point. Assuming the polls are correct, then a stand-alone set of local elections would be horrendous for Labour. I’ve assumed that outside London, Labour would claw back a little ground on local councils , next year, but they certainly won’t if they’re held separately from the general election.
Could March 25th be the date they intend to call the election rather than the election date itself (which would then be in late April or even the more commonly expected May 6th)?
If I remember correctly we had a very long election campaign in 1997 as a result of Major calling a May election very early- could Brown be about to follow suit?
UKIP won`t let it rest , but Murdoch Cameron and the Sun might have to go into constipation mode until June 2010.
OGH: “you would assume that the longer days would be something that Labour tacticians might want”
Why? Labour wants another low turnout, with just their core motivated to vote to keep out the baby-eating Tories.
Off topic, the news here in Equatorial Guinea of the announcement of Simon Mann’s pardon and imminent departure is leading to much speculation in the bars as to who he is going to implement in backing the coup attempt. There’ll be some squeaky bums in Europe over this…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8339372.stm
Interesting question as to where he goes when he leaves.
Oh, and before anyone makes 2+2 = 5, I’ve had absolutely no involvement with Mann in any way shape or form. Just pure coincidence of timing, my being here to talk to some people…
8
Spring forward
Fall back
simples
And a horrible apostrophe catastrophe to boot! tut tut
Any more details on when/where/who circulated this rumour? It seems to be plucked entirely from thin air. Mind you, would be great, get rid of Brown sooner.
Totally OT
Gold making new all time high.
Such is people’s trust in currencies.
25, 27 Not at all - this leftie treasures him. The more exposure he gets the better, I say.
Darling talking utter tosh.
23,24,25 - Dan Hannan, wrong with every call on Europe and Lisbon.
tim - took the opposite view to Hanna at every turn.
Trust in me, just in me
Shut your eyes and trust in me
You can sleep safe and sound
Knowing I am around
Slip into silent slumber
Sail on a silver mist
Slowly and surely your senses
Will cease to resist
Trust in me, just in me
Shut your eyes and trust in me
Don’t we always start to get rumours about possible early General Election dates around this time?
And don’t the party bosses always put such rumours about in order to try and gee their troops up a bit?
From the experience of being governed by Labour, I’m starting to work out what the appeal of coprophi1ia must be: that it’s a glorious feeling when it stops.
34 “…Just pure coincidence of timing, my being here to talk to some people…”
Methinks you do protest too much, young Mark!
27
I have a natural suspicion of any politician, left/right/centre who starts to use terms like, Dunkirk Spirit etc.
It won’t matter when the spineless chump goes because Labour are going to get battered, in which case make it a Friday, so I can see Labour and my Fish both getting battered!
Still think it’ll be 6th May. Gordon will want to go as loooooong as possible. He won’t give up the reigns of power early if he can help it.
Also, FPT, Klaus has signed: F*U*C*K.
re: Lisbon.
This was part of a post from Dizzy yesterday.
Is what he states true? Is there an ‘un-ratification clause’?
“Now, more often than not I agree with Iain, however on this I don’t. For a start, there is an option available on Lisbon that would allow for its “unratification” by Britain. There is withdrawal clause in the Treaty. The Treaty states anyone can leave, but in order to do so you have to tell the European Council and then negotiate your exit. From a pure bargaining position, what would the Eurocrats reaction would be to the opening of withdrawal negotiation? They’d be facing the potential of Britain’s EU budget contribution disappearing. I think they’d panic.”
The whole post is here:
http://dizzythinks.net/2009/11/eu-gesture-politics.html
In my view it’s not really a surprise that Labour may go earlier, they were clearly hanging on until after Lisbon was ratified.
Also May 6th would be after the tax changes in April which would appear in people’s pay packets just before an election so it makes sense to Labour call an election before then to limit the damage.
Just about to say I was wrong when BBC R5 cuts away from Osborne to go to Pienaar…
46. It wouldn’t work. Cameron doesn’t have a mandate to withdraw so no threat on that basis would be credible.
Slow here today.
42 PtP, look, it was just a coincidence I was on that grassy knoll in Dallas that day back in ‘63, honest…
50. Yes nothing big like throwing billions into bad banks happening..
50.
You could always check up on the taxpayers share portfolio..
http://www.google.co.uk/finance?client=ob&q=LON:RBS
I don’t know whether it’s already been discussed on here, but here was a recent survey of the UK looking at each individual constituency and level of education. Some interesting results.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8311447.stm
Here’s each constituency:
http://www.ucu.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=4210
http://www.ucu.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=4211
(surprised how well Broxtowe comes out to be honest).
All political parties love early election rumours as it keps troops in line and on their toes. A late March date would also shaft lots of Labour councillors. All the money and activist time will be expended on the General, Labours voters won’t turn out twice in 6 weeks and for the whole of the campaign the whole government PR machine would be in Conservative hands.
I don’t know wether Gordon can afford to p*** off such a large swath of whats left of the activist base.
39 But you’ve been wrong about quite a lot, too. You were confident that the Conservatives would drop their IHT pledge, fire Andy Coulson, and never leave the EPP.
FPT Seth O Logue.
The key to Cameron achieving successful reform of the EU lies with the ECR alliance. The UK are likely to achieve far more in negotiation if we are part of a group which has a platform for change that is clear, consistent, feasible and popular. The group should also be stable and growing.
The first task for Cameron and Hague must be to stabilise the ECR group and ensure it is provided with adequate resources to develop and communicate consistent policies.
Thts true.
Perhaps Dan Hannan has the Inside Track on what Klaus’ party will do?
Lisbon signed. Mandy’s job done.
Can’t Gordon just go to the Palace this arvo? Please? It would put a step in the country’s step going into Christmas - and start the New Year with its hat set at a jaunty angle…
“Dear Santa,
This Christmas, can you please bring me a Conservative Govt. with a sizeable majority…”
45
Why not?
The squatter-in-chief has sold the furniture, ripped out the fittings, run up bills on the utilities and allowed the infrastructure to rot. All he has left is to block up the outflows and **** on the bare floorboards.
JARHEAD - Day Twenty Eight
Timeline : Tuesday 4th May 2010. 16.47pm
Location : The Thames Embankment. London SW1.
Dramatis Personae : Major Roderick Derry-Smythe and Mike Smithson.
…………………………………………………………
Major Roderick Derry-Smyth slowly paced the situation room and glanced at his watch for the umpteenth time in the past five minutes. He didn’t want to be late not for this meeting. But he had to wait for the latest sitrep from Afghanistan to hit the wires. The satellite link came back to life. A grim faced half colonel filled in some back detail and then announced two more names, a private and a staff sergeant.
The news of the dramatic losses was still only just filtering through to the media but none of the networks had yet fully grasped the nature of the military disaster that had befallen British troops earlier that day. Most outlets thought the total loss was four or possibly five. None had the slightest notion that the total dead was twenty seven. Two ambushes, a helicopter rescue that crashed and a video of the two week captured British serviceman being paraded by the Taliban. It was the worst day in British military history in decades.
The MoD was desperate to slow the release of news of the disaster being as it was only hours before the second leaders debate. The government was equally aware of the dramatic impact this event would have. The links from the MoD to Downing Street were hot, very hot.
Major Rod left the MoD to take the ten minute walk to the Embankment clasping a large manilla envelope between a copy of the Daily Telegraph. He walked briskly, assured but with a sense of destiny raging through his wiry frame.
Mike Smithson had been waiting in a cafe close to the Embankment sipping his ninth Darjeeling tea of the day. For almost thirty minutes before the appointed time he waited. He didn’t want to be seen lingering at the rendevous, it had to be a short direct meeting, over before it had begun. It was.
Minutes later Rod saw Mike sitting on the designated bench with a copy of the Telegraph next to him. Rod sat down, exchanged the copies of the Telegraph and took out his mobile and dialed a number and walked back to the MoD.
Mike walked deeper into Westminster. His next meeting was brief but chilling. Mike read the military summary and choked at the second paragraph and the appendix of twenty seven names. He took his copy. Mike had a little over two hours to return to Bedford for the start of the second leaders debate and cope with the pressure that would fall on his brain child - PB.com
In every sense it would be a truly dramatic night.
25th March makes perfect sense - but surely for the start date of the campaign (six weeks exactly till 6th May) rather than the election itself?
Could this be a tactic to prevent any leadership challenge in early January?
ie If GE is going to be called in mid February there is not enough time for a Leadership election unless Brown goes by January 1st at the latest.
56 And that there was a photograph of Dave doing drugs in existence, and that Dave’s expenses would look bad, and that it’s Dave’s fault his name was put down for Eton, and that it’s possible to be a farmer without knowing the first thing about farming, and that it was a really big deal about the Latvians….actually what has timbot ever been right about?
56 - Not too bad a record over the year really.
And the Tories will regret IHT and ECR.
In force from December the 1st
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8340664.stm
FPT 102 Tabman. I’ve allocated almost £5,200 to date !!
10. I’d heard that Dan Hannan was going to contest the Cheam seat for the Tories at the next general election.
61 - There wont be any challenge in January. Brown has been useless for ages and they havent gotten rid of him yet. They are not going to grow balls in the next few months.
March 25th would do nicely. But it won’t happen however much Labour insiders might be spinning/cajoling/planning for it.
The reason? Same as always.
Bottle, Brown, will, it. re-arrange the following
Marquee Mark - check my blog for a personal welcome!
62 tim - I was just thinking: given the hysteria over the entirely fictional U-turn on a referendum, how right they are to stick to the IHT commitment.
60 I’m shocked - shocked I tell you - that JackW can’t spell rendezvous.
Unless it is an archaic form, popular when he was a lad…
I don’t it will make a jot of difference when Brown calls the election, the voting public are numb with 13 years of deliberate and calculated disaster.
Cash for Peerages
Immigration for votes
Two illegal wars
etc
I put a tenner on a March 2010 at 25/1 just 3 or 4 weeks ago, which looked great value then and even better value now. Should it prove to be so, this will compensate me and then some for the my lost bets on there being a GE between Sept - Nov 2009.
It’s great compelling virtue from Labour’s point of view is that what is bound to be a truly awful Budget can be deferred until afterwards.
70 MM. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
63 Not if they finish up with sort of lead Yougov and ICM are implying.
If there is to be a challenge to Brown, it might as well be now. If there was a EU reason for Mandelson to keep Brown in place surely it is rendered pointless.
68 Yay! Knowing your love of trees (and me being a bit of a vexilographer), the tree on the flag is the ceiba tree - they grow straight and thin to 200 feet, dropping all their branches as they grow - just leaving a crown way, way up on high.
Isn’t that just the date the general election would be called?
That makes the most sense, a John Major esque run up circa 1992.
39
tim = Kaa
Hannan = Shere Khan
Mowgli = UK
Is this the Bungle Book?
60 Jack W, I really hope you don’t have the gift of foresight. I have friends serving in hot and dusty places who fully expect a large scale loss of life under the circumstances your tale envisages.
Two good new nicks for OGH.
1.Werewolf of Bedford (WOB).
2.The Darjeeling Kid (TDK).
73 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
["Should I wake him?"]
“Jack? Jack, love - time for your cup of tea and your biscuit….”
Has it occurred to anyone else that Wayne Rooney’s sprog has a most unfortunate name?
Kai Wayne = Wayne Kai
I can’t believe his parents [or their friends/parents] didn’t point this out.
Poor mite.
Evening all, I very much doubt the election will be anytime other than May. Labour cannot afford to fight two campaigns within a few weeks of each other and I think that that consideration will trump most of the others.
Isn’t that before the bugget? Surely the government would want to use the advantage of that before an election?
I doub’t it be March 25th 2010. But with Brown you can never be certain what he’s going to do because we all know how he loves his little scheme’s….
Another by-election coming up?
http://www.ldexpress.co.uk/ldexpress/displayarticle.asp?id=459573
84 “Isn’t that before the bugget?”
Definition: noun, a financial statement delivred by the Chancellor of thre Exchequer when the country’s finances are buggered…
On Lisbon - I hope lefties make the most of this victory over the Conservaties because it will be their last for a long, long time.
81 MM. I normally love my Zzzzzzzzzzzzz but clearly not @ 60 !!
80 URW.
79 EdP. Let’s assuredly hope not !!
Whatever the truth of the date, it’s propogation as rumour is Brown boxing his opponents into a timescale that allows no challenge.
Labour get to fight on the slogan of “Gordon Brown - Five More Years!” That will put a spring in Labour’s step. I expect about two hundred more of their MP’s to spare themselves the indignity of trying to sell that on the doorstep by standing down beforehand.
Yay!
******* Betting Post *******
Easily the best odds currently available against a March 2010 GE are Chandlers’ 12/1
91 - Hi PfP, they’re 9s now , but thanks anyway
Did you see this? http://www.yougov.co.uk/corporate/archives/press-archives-pol-intro.asp?submenuheader=1
Tim glories in the success of lies. I’d be ashamed, but hey, to each their own.
86 No. Why would she do the decent thing and step down, when it would cost her so much?
I can just imagine it.Brown campaigning on global warming during the worst March since 1947,the country totally snowbound and paralysed.
Sean Fear - poll ratings have fallen after last two budgets. Also talk is of Q1 GDP decline (announced late April). 25 th March is best date to ensure no bad news, and it fits with using expected Q4 Gdp growth announcement in late January to kick off campaign building through Feb to announcement end Feb.
90. I reakon its much more likely the election will be called on 25th March giving Labour exactly six weeks in which to campaign on that slogan.
Anybody rational knows that giving Brown six weeks to try and sell himself to the British electorate is insane, but this is Gordon Brown we’re talking about. He’ll go for a long campaign because he’ll truely believe that if the public can see more of him and get to know the “real Gordon Brown” they’ll eventually warm to him.
Anyone else think that Cameron should have a “referendum” on the Lisbon treaty, wait for the inevitable derisory turnout (how many people are going to turn out for something they, not only don’t really understand/know much about, but won’t change regardless of how they vote?), and then challenge the BOOs to go and form their own country off the north coast of Scotland?
96 But that risks bad GDP news coming during the campaign.
95. Good logic there Ted - I like March and have doubled up on it. To think Labour’s anhilation could be only a few months away…
96. “Anybody rational knows that giving Brown six weeks to try and sell himself to the British electorate is insane, but this is Gordon Brown we’re talking about. He’ll go for a long campaign because he’ll truely believe that if the public can see more of him and get to know the “real Gordon Brown” they’ll eventually warm to him.”
Someone seems to think that Labour can still do it.
http://tinyurl.com/NewLabourMoonbat
97. I doubt it.
96
Six weeks give them enough time to rig the postal and proxy vote system.
96 But, as Ted rightly points out at 95, we’d probably have a headline in the middle of the campaign about the economy going back into recession.
I think that growth in Q4 will be pretty good, given big rises in mortgage lending, and in manufacturers’ orders, and given that people will want to beat the coming rises in VAT and Stamp Duty.
96 SIX WEEKS of GORDON
I can’t think of anything worse [well except to be the victim in a SeanT book]
The fact that Gordon has his wife cold calling voters in Martin’s seat speaks volumes - what a sad git. I’d be humiliated if I had to rely on my other half to whip up support for me.
Yes : Q4 GDP = good, boosted by end of VAT cut panic - can Gordo survive 6 weeks on one green shoot ?
98. But Brown believes he’s saved the world and the UK economy. He won’t in any way think Q1 2010 GDP might be negative.
99. The sooner the better!
100. Always amusing to read that!
96 According to previous posts by the TIMBOT, Brown will be resigning over the New Year, so it will be AJ the Postie selling himself to the country.
56: ‘But you’ve been wrong about quite a lot, too.’
And let’s not forget the pièce de résistance - ‘Growth in Q2′:
http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/06/10/the-speaker-election-is-labour-backing-margaret-beckett/#comment-1107560
A General Election on Annunciation, eh? And the Gord became flesh, and dwelt among us……
OT A jolly good idea
“Bare-footed, drunk and humiliated this is the latest victim of a new zero tolerance approach to binge drinking and anti-social behaviour.
In an bid to reclaim the streets, revellers in Newcastle’s city centre are now being forced to clean up their own mess.
Those who are caught urinating by police officers, being sick in the street or dropping litter are immediately stopped under the hard-hitting scheme.
They are then issued with a fixed penalty notice before being handed a disinfectant spray to clean the pavement - in front of other partygoers…
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224929/Police-make-drunken-revellers-clean-vomit-urine-crackdown-Binge-Britain-filth.html?ITO=1490#ixzz0VoaaXzSv
107. No, thats what Tim wishes will happen. He knows deep down the reality is that Brown will stick it out and take Labour to a catastrophic defeat!
104. Does she burst into tears on the phone ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197385/Sarah-Browns-tears-Gary-McKinnon.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-200143/Browns-tears-joy-son-born.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2632233/PMs-wife-on-domestic-abuse-vistim-Sarah-Brown.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sarah-browns-lasagne-offensive-1732749.html
now available as a musical treat for Xmas
http://www.amazon.co.uk/My-Christmas-Tree-Hung-Tears/dp/B001GXECLI
112.
glw - how did you fix that tinyurl?
100 Wouldn’t it be great if Sion Simon lost his seat by one vote? Then, every single person who voted against him would know that their vote had been worthwhile.
112 I feel positively ill.
108 - Citing a news report with no comment hardly compares to the madness and delusion over Europe that descends upon even the more intelligent Tories on here. politics.
Even Seant managed to be more correct that those on here who actually know something about politics but have a blind spot when it comes to Europe.
Clocks go forward in March!
(says someone who thought he got up an hour late last Sunday!)
What must it feel like to be a Labour MP this evening? Obviously there might be more war or plague or a First Contact but in all probability Labours historic purpose even in its own terms is now over. Stimulus and Lisbon was all that was left. Now both achieved.
What are the next 6 months for?
115 I’d consider applying for a postal vote just for him
I do hope Mr Ashcroft has not only a marginal seat list, but also a pr1ck list for amusement purposes.
108 SD, that thread contains this gem as well -
“232. 211 - I’m not opening any champagne.
But I think its now looking very likely that the man who said this.
“Gordon Brown cannot answer the simplest question of all: If Britain is well prepared as he claims, why are we facing the worst recession in the world?”
is, as ken would say, an economic illiterate.
It was of course George Osborne
by tim June 10th, 2009 at 5:01 pm”
Pots and kettles?
114. They have a custom alias option, which is handy.
119. Six months of extra wages before they are all unemployable (well those that can’t get on the EU gravy train)?
119. More seriously for Labour, what are the next 10-15 years for?
Many of these nonentities will be unemployable outside politics.
116. Look her lasagne isnt that bad or is it ???
“Now, sitting at a round table with the smell of Mrs Brown’s cooking in their nostrils, ministers can have a more relaxed conversation with the Prime Minister than they can ever have in the cold formality of the Cabinet room with civil servants taking notes”
I tell you what her PR people earn their corn..
One for tim
“A post-ratification referendum on Lisbon would be meaningless
I never thought the day would come when I appeared on a radio discussion about Europe and that I would be the person chosen by the producer to be the voice of moderation.
I have been a staunch eurosceptic since I first started following politics in the late 1980s when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister. I remember the day I was thrown out of a German class aged fourteen for arguing with the europhile teacher against her integrationist position.
And I fondly recall how I went to the summer conference of the youth wing of the French RPR party in 1998 and addressed an audience of 2,000 (in French) with my British Conservative vision of Europe (borrowing a phrase of John Redwood’s in my assertion that “L’Europe est notre continent et pas notre pays”).
Yet today I found myself in Simon Mayo’s Radio 5 Live studio at the BBC arguing against Robert Oulds, a Conservative councillor and director of the Bruges Group, on the issue of the Lisbon Treaty….”
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/11/a-postratification-referendum-on-lisbon-would-be-meaningless.html
121 Be fair. Ireland and Iceland have done worse.
124 runnymede - And with a bit of luck they’ll be unemployable within politics for the next 15 years.
What are the next 6 months for?
They are to give Brown more time to explain his vision to the people. He is convinced that if only they could see and understand what He is doing for them they would be amazed, grateful and re-elect him and his colleagues.
129 Indeed, that vision that needed to be explained in 2007 and why an election was the wrong move.
In the words of Rolf Harris - can you guess what it is yet?
130 - the funniest thing I remember about Rolf Harris was when “I’m Sorry, I’ll read that again” did the Rolf Harris dirty songbook, bleeping out any words that may cause offence…
117: ‘Citing a news report with no comment…’
My apologies. I thought you had cited the news report in question because you agreed with it. I didn’t realize you were holding it up for the ridicule it so obviously deserved.
127 Sean, so Osborne’s “worst recession” was somewhat closer to reality (3rd worst), than Brown/Darling’s “best placed” by some margin?
131 Speaking of bleeping things out - I tripped across this today - it does make one assume that the Count is being naughty!
http://richardwiseman.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/what-the-bleep/
128. That of course goes without saying for many of them.
And spare a thought also for the sad fate of the myriad Labour hangers-on: the bag-carriers, the kiddie spinners, the sycophantic hacks, the cyber smearers. The future looks distinctly bleak for them, too.
Mandleson getting an easy ride on Sky
What is it about David Lammy that makes me want to go zzzzzzzzzzzzzz ?
Because it’s been a while, and we’re talking about MacSporran, I’d just like to mention rocking horses and nappies.
Cameron looks like he might be taking lots of sips of water.
http://blogs.news.sky.com/boultonandco/Post:80c4c33b-8b5c-4f30-b60e-bdda1c0eb5b9?DCMP=KNC-SkyTicker1
Careful Dave, your quote on ecstasy “So broadly speaking it is the dancing which is killing them not the drug.”
misses the point.
Its the water consumption.
b. Thanks for that.
It’s unlikely she will resign. Why give up six months pensionable pay? However, I think we can safely rule Labour out of that contest now. That means you can take your pick between, best prices, Tory 4/7 [VC] and Esther Rantzen 7/1 [Lads].
Since I was already on ER at 16s, I’ve layed off heavily on the Tory, who I now expect to win comfortably - but Esther’s still value at 7s, I should think if you missed the bigger prices.
129. The last thing Labour need is for Brown’s record, character and intentions to be scrutinised by the electorate. The closer you look the worse it gets, you’d have to be deluded to think otherwise.
136. Whats he popped up for?
That’s for b. at 86.
138. That pic is on the same website as the DC coke one ?
136 Who’s Sky?
UKIP may well fancy their chances in Buckingham even more now. What are the latest odds?
If the GE were in March, the point about having to fight the Local Elections separately in May must be totally irrelevant.
Brown is only interested in one thing - the GE. He will want to do everything he can to maximise his chances of doing as well as possible in the GE.
After the GE, everything else will be irrelevant. He won’t care if a few extra Councillors lose their seats.
141. But Brown IS deluded. Thats the point…
134 - yes, it’s the same idea: think what you can do bleeping out words in songs such as ‘2 little boys’, ‘Jake the peg’ etc.
The ‘Julie Andrews dirty song book’ was funny too
Interesting article from the Fink, making a similar point to that I’ve made repeatedly: it is bonkers for Eurosceptics to push for a referendum now that it is too late to prevent ratification:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2009/11/the-politics-of-a-lisbon-referendum.html
133 - You might like to look at Japan as well before you slip into Osbornes hysterical hyperbole.
97- surely if people don’t understand something they should vote against it? Who knows what you’re getting yourself in for. Besides, we weren’t meant to understand the EU constitution. That was the point of making it so large and unreadable.
151 Tell us again how we were best placed to come out of the recession, Tim. He we have led the way back to growth.
151. Hysterical hyperbole? This from the guy thats been going on about Latvian and Polish nazi’s for months!
Tim, endlessly repeating “Osbornes hysterical hyperbole” does not make it so.
Try groing up a little.
150 - He’s been saying that for months, and Cameron should’ve listened to him and done the same.
151. tim - are you suggesting we are in for a lost decade a la Japan after Gordo’s disasterous policy ?
156 Not read what the Fink wrote, Tim?
“It was always completely clear that the pledge held while the Lisbon treaty remained to be ratified. This point was repeated again and again.
Any attempt to suggest otherwise involves a wilful misunderstanding.”
141 - Brown is convinced of his own intelligence and intellect, thinks anyone who disagrees with him is wrong and therefor inferior, and demands total and utter loyalty from all around him.
The bunker must be an exercise in mass self-delusion as they all say how wonderful he is.
The price of gold is rising very strongly at the moment:
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20091103-711990.html?mod=rss_Commodities
Well done King Gordo the great anti Midas!
124. I very much enjoyed Prof Phillip Blond and Rabbi Baroness Neuberger at the St Paul’s cathedral event on the credit crunch a few weeks back. Normally you’d be over awed by the dome on an occassion like that however between the two of them for about 90 minutes you could imagine a British politics without the Labour Party. A proper conservative Centre Right party but rooted in relocalised economies that were of a human scale and a decent Centre Left party more interested in choice and liberty and less nationalistic however without all the horrific statist, authoritarian clap trap.
The eening was all the better for the “sexual” tension between them. There obvious loathing was intensified because they were agreeing on 80% of everything.
Could it be true?
I’m fairly sure one of the two big events of this Conference season was Peter Mandelson and Nick Clegg saving the Labour Party but we can all pray..
Just a thought - how many times have we seen pro-Labour supporters/apologists use the triangulation method to discredited their opponents?
160 - isn’t that because India’s just bought a shed load?
149
* * and * *, and * * and * *
* * and * *, and * * and * *
* * and * * and * * and *
These are a few of my favorite things.
133 Actually, a number of small economies, which have been heavily dependent on capital inflows, such as Latvia, have also fared worse than our own. Italy’s done worse as well, IIRC.
But certainly, Osborne was closer to the truth than Brown was.
150- Richard, for me at least it’s a point of principle, you thinking it “bonkers” is irrelevant.
163. LTL - yes 200 tons of the stuff.
166. Huge waste of ££ though to hold a nationwide vote on a point of principle ?
135. Not to worry. As they’re so fond of reminding us, our MPs are paid the big bucks because they can all earn much more outside politics.
It will be with a heavy heart that 200-odd Labour MPs will be forced from public office next year, and compelled to tolerate a pointless life of mere wealth creation.
Poor old NPMP will have no compensation other than the empty comfort of more money than the £250,000 a year that the MPs’ package amounts to, when valued properly (but without counting all the opportunities MPs enjoy for peculation: selling peerages, home flipping, employing your relatives, fiddling your food expenses, taking bribes, etc).
Personally I’ve never really understood the argument that they could make more doing one job, so this other job should pay them the same. That’s like one of Labour’s £150,000 a year GPs downshifting to a £10,000 a year shelf-filling job but expecting to be paid £150,000 a year for doing it, on the grounds that if s/he were still a GP, that’s what the pay would be.
164 - I could have *ed all night, and still have begged for more
167 - shame we had none to sell, sounds like India has more ready cash than we have.
168- I rather think that trust in politics is priceless, and rare at the moment
What are some people on?
“A decision to ban poppies from being sold in libraries was overturned after an outcry today.
Staff at 48 libraries were ordered to remove all poppy collection tins from counters - in the name of equality.
Officials in Derbyshire ruled they could not be seen to support particular charities at the expense of others.
The ban, which applied to all 48 libraries in Derbyshire, only overturned today after being branded ’scandalous’.
Staff were sent an email on October 28 warning them to remove any boxes from public areas ‘immediately’.
The memo, from Ann Ainsworth, the county council’s ‘Operations Manager, West’, said: ‘I need to reinforce that the County Council does not support specific charities and does not provide opportunities for any charities to collect donations via Derbyshire Libraries.
‘This ensures it maintains a neutral position and does not favour particular charities at the expense of others.
‘Clearly this also excludes collection boxes for the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224811/Libraries-ban-poppies-We-favour-charity-says-manager.html?ITO=1490#ixzz0Voit9FPJ
Chief scientist backs Nutt on cannabis
The Government’s chief scientist has backed Professor David Nutt, the sacked drugs adviser, in his view that alcohol and cigarettes are more harmful than cannabis.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6495115/Governments-chief-scientist-backs-David-Nutt-on-cannabis.html
Claude Levi-Strauss has died aged 100 :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8340936.stm
166 Bob - There’s no point of principle at stake here.
“Officials in Derbyshire ruled they could not be seen to support particular charities at the expense of others.”
That’s actually not an unreasonable point.
148, 159. Surely somebody will stop him? I’m not claiming to know how or when, but are Labour really going to let Brown take the party down with himself?
158.”“It was always completely clear that the pledge held while the Lisbon treaty remained to be ratified. This point was repeated again and again.
Any attempt to suggest otherwise involves a wilful misunderstanding.””
Check out Glen Oglaza’s interpretation of the Labour and the Conservative positions on a referendum on this issue.
Glen Oglaza on Boulton&Co - Cameron: It’s All Labour’s Fault
“Interesting glimpse of the Conservative tactic for dealing with the problem of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty: Blame Labour.
Yes, Labour’s manifesto did promise a referendum on the original proposed Constitution - but once the French and the Dutch threw it out, there was no need for one.
Yes, the Lisbon Treaty might bear extra-ordinary similarities to the original constitution, sans anthem, but sorry Dave: Labour didn’t promise a refendum on the Lisbon Treaty, while the Conservatives did.
Silly promise in the first place, of course. Bound to cause trouble. And so it has.”
Wasn’t Gordon looking for a new spin doctor?
176- yes there is. Cameron promised a referendum, he isn’t delivering one. After Brown and Clegg broke their word, this has damaged trust in politics badly. Delivering a referendum would be an example of a politician keeping their word.
175 - do you think Anthropology was in his
jeansgenes?174 - if the professor owns a couple of dogs, does that make them the Nutt’s mutts?
glw [and others]
One of the many useful little hints I have picked u from reading NickP’s posts over the years is that, sadly, MPs don’t really worry much about Council Seat losses.
177 And they are the only charity that supports those who died for their country.
Not exactly in the same league as the Save Our Hedgehogs campaign. I’m a keen animal charity supporter and participant, but…
http://www.sttiggywinkles.org.uk/
179.
“Yes, Labour’s manifesto did promise a referendum on the original proposed Constitution - but once the French and the Dutch threw it out, there was no need for one.”
Did Mandy write that for him ?
179 I agree with the last point in the article, DC shouldn’t have made this promise, I wouldn’t have done so, but having done so, he should keep it.
180 Cameron promised a referendum, he isn’t delivering one.
* sigh *
185.I wonder how intelligent he imagines the rest of us are.
Does anyone know when the Papal visit is planned for next year? I rather got the impression that Murphy and other Roman Catholics in the cabinet etc were pinning their hopes on a Papal miracle to save their seats.
Why does anyone bother with our resident lefties. Just ignore them.
161 - Yellow Sub “Nick Clegg saving the Labour Party ”
I hope not. how?
From the comments on Conhome.
The Bishop SWine said…
A theological perspective:
We must safeguard our children. Great Britain isn’t called that by a quirk of fate it is a simple statement of fact. There are three trees of life held together all of which interact in the Here & Now. For now we should offer a referendum on Lisbon an act of national will to ensure we can bang our door shut when the time comes.
Quite and this was when our national light was attacked by the “serious criminals” those who are backing something so black it is hard to imagine how they sleep at night. Of course I am not a Criminal myself and I know a black heart when I see it. Yes we are democrats but there has been nothing democratic about the way Lisbon has been handled. Rather than believe the lie that there is nothing to be done we must hit this string of treaties were it hurts. In my opinion we should renegotiated the Treaty of Rome. Thieves will not prosper in the Kingdom of heaven their days are numbered. Serious criminals act against the light worshipping the Beast and his image. I believe we are better than that with our eyes firmly set on the Goddess of love. OF course this is just an opinion. They could kill this body but that would not even cause a blink in the master plan. 2011 is of course coming up rather quickly.
We will do what is right, if that means offering a referendum then I think we should.
We must safeguard our children. Great Britain isn’t called that by a quirk of fate it is a simple statement of fact. There are three trees of life held together all of which interact in the Here & Now. For now we should offer a referendum in this Bishops opnion on Lisbon an act of national will to ensure we can bang our door shut when the time comes. You can see the fear in the eyes of the greedy this is not going to come as a surprise. There are Two sides to this coin black and white each serve the lord god/desss
(Just an opinion of course and the wording of the referendum would have to be carefully thought through).
“The reality of the sons of light is that they have brought their own cover. The Mantis-headed God form is ready to pounce as are the wasps of the Aeon.” These curses are held at bay only by obedience to the Master builders plan. We can see only a little way into the future, but it is hoped that this planet pass’s the test. How many more cycles we must pass through is unclear.
…………..
These words are not true but neither are they lies they are presented as a parable of sorts…
Reply Tuesday, November 03, 2009 at 17:07
I couldn’t have put it better.
“135. Not to worry. As they’re so fond of reminding us, our MPs are paid the big bucks because they can all earn much more outside politics. ”
That’s quite true. Next year, we’ll be giving 150-190 Labour MPs the opportunity to boost their earnings.
The Pope’s a former Nazi.
Clearly, if any Conservative meets him, that will prove they all are, too.
178 - they have had ample chance to stop him. It can only happen one of two ways:
1 Brown quits. This seems unlikely
2. A candidate emerges to challenge Brown, and gets the required number of MPs to back him /her. This seems unlikely too, as who would want to be the leader of the Labour Party and immediately go down to defeat without the chance to do anything beforehand to prevent it.
If 2 above happens, Brown could just call an immediate election anyway. He could just quit if challenged but that too seems unlikely seeing how long he schemed to get the job.
186.Bob, he made a promise on an *unratified Treaty*. We have gone around the houses on this one. Everyone and their dog knew that this Treaty was going to be ratified before the next GE, there are skid marks across Europe right now to show the effort that has gone it to it. We have all been waiting for the Conservatives to announce their next move if the Treaty was ratified, no surprises.
180 But Bob, you should recognise that the only evidence that Cameron promised a post-ratification referendum is that Sun article. Personally I don’t think that on balance it does bear the interpretation you put on it, but I agree that interpretation is not 100% watertight and the article could, at a stretch, be interpreted your way.
However, there were dozens of other, more detailed, expositions of policy at about the same time, all of which made it 100% clear that your interpretation is not what Cameron meant. So at worst you can accuse him of lack of clarity in a single, very short article.
In other words, the Fink is correct: “It was always completely clear that the pledge held while the Lisbon treaty remained to be ratified. This point was repeated again and again. Any attempt to suggest otherwise involves a wilful misunderstanding.”
That is why there is no point of principle at stake.
188 Anyone with two sentient brain cells knows that to have a referendum on something that has already been agreed is entirely pointless - and 98% of the population would think ‘Eh?’
Why don’t the UKIP-lite Tories campaign for something that is realistic rather than crying that Santa gave ‘their’ toy to someone else.
*sigh*
187- that’s a powerful argument.
173 - Derbyshire was taken by the Tories in May.
Why not write to them in disgust?
191 - The alarming thing is that that’s one of the more sensible comments on ConHome today (or any other day, come to that).
I haven’t been keeping up with events in Japan. Have they fallen back into recession?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/aug/17/japan-beats-recession-exports
195 / 196 / 197 - Come on, we went through this all morning long. If some people want to believe that Cameron promised a referendum on Lisbon regardless of the circumstances then let them. They cant be helped.
Personally, I’m pleased that Lisbon has been passed as it brings us closer to the day when Europe can act like a proper superpower, and go and bomb some pointless little country into the Neolithic.
That’s what we all want, deep down, so let’s just cut the jibberjabber and crack on.
Plus I look forward to the day when we can say to America, stop helping Israelis kill Palestinians, you idiotic fat assed dorks.
*retires behind his Laotian concubine for the rest of the evening*
195/196 - even if a promise is made in the Sun, it’s still a promise. DC is obviously pursuing the tactically correct course, and his pragmatism is one reason I think he’ll make a good, perhaps even great PM. I disagree with him though. Why does this annoy you all so much?
197- I hope you aren’t including me as a “UKIP lite” Tory Plato. Again, I don’t understand why the fact that I disagree with the party winding so many people up.
199. Because it will take a very long time to roll every last one of these PC tapeworm out of the body politic’s anus and around a pencil, enabling safe disposal, tim.
In Derby, the process has only just begun.
I’m not sure when we’ll get around to Manc Poly SU.
206- have you read his article in the Sun? Or are you illiterate?
Whatever Cameron does tomorrow, the story running now is how the much the Conservatives will be split and how it will be terrible for them – in much the same way that the media was looking for divisions on Europe during the first day or so of the Conference. Then they suddenly realised that there was no story, apart from the one of the media looking for a story which was not significant.
I can’t help feeling that if there were considerable ructions to come, there would have been more today; apart from labour stirring the pot and the odd cry from the outer margins.
Corzine headed south on Intrade… not sure what that is based on, though.
211- I don’t think the party will split on this, DC is doing the pragmatic thing.
“Ready Made Statement Kit” Courtesy of John Rentoul:
http://johnrentoul.independentminds.livejournal.com/195473.html
Will be interesting to see how this compares with Hagues version….
177 “That’s actually not an unreasonable point.”
It’s a totally unreasonable point.
Up and down the land local communities with council support paid for and erected memorials to the dead after WW1 and added further names after WW2.
It was a community expression of grief, gratitude and support for ex-servicemen. By your logic, Local Authorities should have prevented the building of these War Memorials.
Yet, what a miserable attitude the whole story conveys. Some apparatchik, permanent officer of the council decides that we, as a nation, owe no debt to the ex-servicemen supported by the Poppy Appeal.
Someone seemingly immune from normal community feeling, exempt from censure and blind to the debt owed.
Labour announces tax cut !!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8340923.stm
207 “Plus I look forward to the day when we can say to America, stop helping Israelis kill Palestinians, you idiotic fat assed dorks.”
On the basis that the EU wants to do it instead?
@177 David
“Officials in Derbyshire ruled they could not be seen to support particular charities at the expense of others.That’s actually not an unreasonable point.”
So you would presumably argue that the Queen, TV presenters etc., should also stop wearing poppies because that’s favouring one charity over another?
On the Lisbon referendum issue personally I’m not in favour of one now.
However it’s unreasonable to argue its simply expensive time wasting “kicking tyres”
The serious argument for a Lisbon referendum goes beyond just “keeping a promise”, important though that is.
Additional arguments are;
a. Makes it much more difficult for parties to renegn again on referendum promises
b. Assuming Lisbon is rejected, demonstrates no democratic legitimacy in the UK. Could be used as basis for refusal to implement Lisbon provisions - e.g. no British participation in the new EU foreign service (can be done anyway), to refusing to recognise measures passed by Lisbon QMV/ratchett in British law leading eventually presumably to conetentious ECJ cases.
c. Shows strength of British feeling, so strenthening renegotiating position on other matters and keeping Cameron “honest” into the bargain versus the Clarks/Heseltines.
d. Pour “encourager les autres” (the more eurosceptic countries) for the next round of power grabs - Denmark for example.
etc.etc.
What I think Cameron needs to demonstrate is that he has a better tactical plan than this, while not giving too much of the negotiating position. Difficult but possible. Lets see.
I rather get the feeling that we are all being Coulsoned today.
Cameron’s decision not to offer the electorate a referendum on a ratified Lisbon Treaty has topped the news all day, finally being confirmed by Hague within the last hour.
The blogs are boiling, the journalists ranting and Tory has been set upon Tory. This is the vision of the apocalypse. Even tim is dancing in ecstasy (it is the water, tim, the water!).
So Coulson has stirred the waters and, more importantly, dampened expectations for tomorrow’s announcements. The news from the press conference will no longer be “no referendum”.
So just what will it be? A manifesto mandate authorising Cameron to remove the UK from the EU if his proposals for EU reform are not satisfied. Now isn’t that rather stronger than a promised referendum and easier to achieve?
So, have we all been Coulsoned?
214. Forget the blog entry, did you read the potted bio for Mr Rentoul? - which included the phrase:
“He has written a biography of Tony Blair, whom he admired more at the end of his time in office than he did at the beginning”
Is there anyone who might be able to say the same of the current Prime Minister?
218- I have a lot of faith in DC, he is a very able leader and I believe that he is capable of coming up with a position whereby we undo some of this damage without a referendum. If he does I will be happy to support that.
217. I would hope that Europe, our superpower home, would be a little less beholden to the Jewish lobby, and will be able to tell the Israelis to stop raining phosphorus bombs on Palestinian children trapped in the open prison of Gaza.
I hoped that Obama would do this, but it turns out he is a useless twat. So maybe it’s up to us, the new big kid on the block.
Europe has possibilities.
216. Sometimes you just want to cry
Did anyone here see Mandelson (e before l except after c!) on Hardtalk yesterday? Can’t imagine Brown going on that show somehow…
219- it’s odd really, people say it’s the Euro sceptics who will split the party, but it’s the people who support DC on this that have been attacking me on here simply for disagreeing with him.
Don’t know if anyone has posted this yet:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100015458/doesnt-anyone-get-angry-in-the-tory-party-any-more/
Very sensible analysis, there will be no bloody civil war over this.
Johnson saves woman from ‘oiks’: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8340865.stm
Get in Boris!
203 “Derbyshire was taken by the Tories in May. Why not write to them in disgust?”
Taken after a long period of Labour rule. Want to bet that the person who made that decision is a long-time Labour appointee? Thankfully they were slapped down - and sense imposed - by that very same newly-elected Tory council. Unlike the wankiness of Labour-council “Winterval” celebrations, which did last more than a day…
225 Perhaps those who support Cameron want to win and don’t want be distracted at this crucial time?
210. Not sure many share Rentoul’s view on Blair post vs Blair pre - but certainly Brown has been a catastrophe - and I think is the root cause of the Nuttsack fiasco. Rentoul also believes Johnson is doing a great job! Nuff said!
BBC now reporting Sun’s Drayson story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8340686.stm
Post 54 seems to confirm previous findings that there are more Lib Dem voters amongst the more intelligent people than among the less intelligent people. This needs more detailed statistical examination though.
216: ‘Labour announces tax cut !!!’
‘…pubs, restaurants and clubs could go on charging at the lower rate until 6am on New Year’s Day.’
I have to say that I never noticed the price of booze decrease in pubs with the VAT cut. Did anyone else?
227 “If you find yourself down a dark alleyway and in trouble I think Boris would be of more use than Ken.”
219 - Yes, no one is talking about Darling claiming to have saved the banks all over again. This is almost certainly an expectation dampening exercise by Coulson and taking the attention away from the governments bank agenda. All day tomorrow will be a build up for the 4 PM press conferance which could be when Cameron ’seals the deal’.
219 - You’re almost sounding like ChristinaD.
“I know that Hague and Cameron will have a fantastic plan that will let the greatness of Dave shine through.
Essentially it will be great because Dave is inherently fantastically great and although I don’t know what the plan is it will undoubtedly be great, if not greater and more fantastic than I can imagine Dave’s greatness may be about to reveal”
198 TimB
I never have thought it needed to be as mechanistic as that. I remain sure that if certain people tap him on the shoulder, point out a few stark realities and indicate that it is time to go (whilst making it clear he will be unceremoniously bundled out if need be), he would accept the inevitable and make it look as natural as possible.
Nevertheless as one who has been more inclined than most to think he would would quit before the GE, I have to admit that it is now looking extremely unlikely. The timetable is too tight and it would just look like a pathetic electoral trick now.
There are just two more events, imo, which could make a last-minute defenestration possible.
1. Defeat for Paul Lloyd in the imminent PLP Chairman election
2. Defeat in the Glasgow by-election
Both would suddenly reignite the Gordon-must-go campaign but I can’t see much evidence of either happening, nor do I detect the kind of ground movements one might expect in advance of a coup.
Nope, it is really starting to look as though Labour intend to go quietly into that dark night.
“Some apparatchik, permanent officer of the council decides that we, as a nation, owe no debt to the ex-servicemen supported by the Poppy Appeal.”
I think you are reaching quite far to get that interpretation and are being a bit silly to do so.
“So you would presumably argue that the Queen, TV presenters etc., should also stop wearing poppies because that’s favouring one charity over another?”
No. I just think it’s not entirely an unreasonable point. I personally have no problem with the BL appeal being given space and even special prominence. One can disagree with something nad still fid it a reasnoable point.
233. If you’ve seen Boris playing football you know he’d get stuck in.
235.Thanks for reminding me of just how nasty you can get when you don’t like a poster on this site.
229- he is pursuing the most pragmatic strategy. Did someone abolish free speech while I was at work?
215: Seems more constructive to support the Poppy appeal at this time of year and then support a series of other charities in different fields in rotaiton during the rest of the year.
239 I’m waiting for the first leftie to get excited about his violent ironbar-wielding attitude towards women…
March 25 is nonsense, the new register only comes in a few weeks before, postal votes will have to be issued early March. It is all far too tight for the local authorities to manage the thing. Forget it. Just an attempt to get the opposition parties to spend extra monies, and if the Lib Dems have to pay back the 2.4m they will be in more trouble.
Also Labout love to have the locals the same time as the General they get more seats that way at the local level.
May then it is, there is no doubt.
ChristinaD, tim only bullies women.
I put his misogyny down to being deeply traumatised by Fattcha.
226 Bob
We are about to see a sgnificant Tory policy shift, and it’s quiet out there. Too quiet.
I think Brogan is thinking what I’m thinking, don’t you think?
243- I agree, they don’t appear to be able to afford two sets of elections, unless they have agreed some sort of massive pre election donation to be made.
245- Coulson? The PR guy? Tim said he was going to be sacked though…
It has to be said that Dan Hannan - much as I love him for his evisceration of Brown at Strasbourg - has made himself look like a bit of a twerp on the Lisbon signing.
How could he, or anyone with a rudimentary neocortex, honestly believe that Klaus would be able to hold out until Christmas, let alone next May?
It’s not called realpolitik for nothing. The reality of the political situation was that the president of a tiny country like Czechia would obviously not be able to resist the combined weight of Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc etc etc, plus his own fairly europhile government and populace.
Hannan made a booboo. Klaus has signed. The Superpower is born like the very first android. The metal eye opens. And gleams.
216 What a pointless exercise. Far easier to cut off the old VAT rate at Midnight. It’s not as if the price the drinker pays will be affected anyway.
On topic, there are really only three plausible planned dates.
6 May 2009
The justified clear favourite. Tying the general election with the local elections is economical and minimises the risk of electoral voting fatigue.
3 June 2009
The longstop date. This could be justified on the basis of trying to let the public see the benefits of the Government’s actions on the economy (assuming that the economy was recovering by then, which remains far from clear).
25 March 2009
The early date. This would avoid the need for a budget, for the public to receive pay packets with new rates of tax and the Q1 figures if they look likely to be bad.
In my view, going to the wire would look terrible, so I’m not expecting that. I have covered both March and May at much better odds than are now available.
If Gordon Brown is replaced very shortly, we might have a snap election before March, but I really don’t expect so.
244. Tim is surely too young to have been traumatised by Fattcha? He cannot be more than about 16 or 17 years old.
248 Dan is a great orator but a total EU nerdy loon IMO.
It’s a real shame but hey ho - personally I think his perfect job is to be a Republican senator.
236 PtP - I’m not sure that defeat of Tony [not Paul] Lloyd would be a big event in itself. Obviously it would demonstrate disgruntlement amongst Labour MPs, but then we already know that they are not exactly gruntled. Brown could easily brush it aside if he wanted to. And Glasgow looks pretty safe as far as one can tell from the outside signs, especially the Gordon and Sarah stuff.
A defenestration (or auto-defenestration) can’t be ruled out, but as you know I’ve been pretty sceptical all along.
250 antifrank.
All your possible dates have expired…
Hannan is an utter moron. There is nobody I despise more in the Tory party than this slimy, disgusting little character.
243. Economically May 5th is not going to be a good time. This is just after a budget when taxes will go up. There will be the risk of a further backlash as it becomes clear that the middle classes are expected to pick up the tab for the public sector spending frenzy.
The global economy is starting to pick up. This is good for manufacturers but not good for the QE program. Either interest rates will start to rise soon or the fiscal stimulus will need to be cut. Making goods for other people is not nearly as much fun as buying stuff someone else made.
While economics is not the only factor for setting an election it does make end of March or April a possibility.
253- has anyone ever been fenestrated?
243 - I don’t really buy the local elections argument. I don’t recall the Tories in May 1997 saying, “oh well, at least we picked up some extra council seats” (which they did).
There was more of an argument in May 2009 when a big tranche of Labour seats which were won only because the 2005 elections coincided with the General were up for grabs. But Labour start from a very low base of councillors in 2006 - they might make some gains if they coincide with a General but I very much doubt it will drive the decision.
Still think it will be May though. Just I think the local elections thing is a red herring… it won’t be weighing on their minds.
248 The trouble is Sean that the EU is not going to be a superpower. It will be more like Rome in 450AD, or 1920s China - populous, but decadent, economically bust, inward-looking, not a proper country at all, and inhabited by people who don’t understand each other’s language.
As such, neither was unable to avoid being dismembered by the local savages. I wonder who the EU’s Visigoths, or Imperial Japanese Army, will prove to be.
“A post-ratification referendum on Lisbon would be meaningless…”
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/11/a-postratification-referendum-on-lisbon-would-be-meaningless.html
257 Bob - Mandelson was refenestrated.
261- ah, that’s must be why he looks so gruntled at the moment.
227 - “But Ms Armstrong added: “If you find yourself down a dark alleyway I think Boris would be of more use than Ken.”
Wouldn’t any woman think the same?
248 - And to be fair to you SeanT you were pretty much proven right over Lisbon and kept up rather well I thought, compared to those Tories on here who actually know about Politics and/or Betting.
Hannan has been a total fool.
254 - I am a berk! But for 2009, read 2010 throughout.
For those that would like to accuse me of living in the past, you have your proof.
245. Message to Eurosceptics: you are just f*cking deluded if you think Cameron is going to threaten EU *withdrawal* tomorrow.
It will be the classic euro-fudge. Renegotiation of powers, mandate in the manifesto, blah blah, no referendum. I don’t doubt DC’s sincere skepticism about EU democracy, nor his desire to rejig our relationship with Brussels. Indeed some sort of reset, may, eventually, be possible.
But right now Britain is economically extremely weak. We have the world’s biggest deficit, our biggest peacetime debt, and virtually Europe’s worst recession, thanks to Labour. We are in no position to threaten withdrawal from an economic bloc which provides us with some security; if we did threaten to pull out, the bond markets would punish us at once and we’d be bankrupt by Monday.
Get real.
If we were ever going to withdraw it might have been when we were economically at out strongest vis a vis Europe - maybe in the late 90s. Now it is simply a non runner.
We will now never withdraw. The time will never be right. Whenever we are doing well economically no one will want to rock the boat, by leaving the EU; whenever we are struggling no one will want to let go of the EU security blanket (ironically it’s the same dilemma faced by the SNP within the UK, writ large).
So we’re in the EU for good. Let’s make the best of it: get some democracy in Brussels, use our diplomatic skills, exploit the fact the EU speaks English, and run the show to our advantage. Then we can go and bomb some small countries.
And now I bid you goodnight, and so does my new Laotian friend “Amm”.
253 Thanks Richard. Error noted.
Not sure I agree with you about the PLP Chairman election though. I think it would be the perfect signal to the plotters, if indeed there are any. Can’t see any evidence that there are though.
Agree with you about Glasgow, so, on balance, as regards GB leading his troops into The Valley of Death, looks like you are right and I am wrong.
Haven’t posted much of late, but a few observations
1) Contrary to what others posted 5 live have been including clips of George Osborne castigating Darling and the Govt.
2) Is Europe an issue? it might be, we will find out in the next few polls. If Liam Byrne is anything to go by, his odious interview on 5 live earlier, which said in as many words, tough luck Cameron you are scr*wed, is more likely to incense voters than anything else. Whether this will lead to more intending to vote UKIP is anyones guess, but voting UKIP won’t deliver what UKIP want. Its a true wasted vote.
3)Interesting Nick Palmer has been noticeable by his absence of late, bar a couple of tim like digs earlier today. I guess he’s been too busy worrying about his latest canvas returns.
245 If Coulson has planned this he will need to have a rabbit to pull out of the hat. I would rate it as a slim chance. The last couple of days just looks like softening up.
Reminder: Over on PB2
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2009/08/naming-date-when-will-general-election.html
Naming the Day
If you ask me to guess, I’d say that next year’s Budget will be on Weds 10th March 2010 [it always seems to be a Wednesday] with Parliament proroged in an elaborate ceremony the following day… with a quick 28 day campaign to Thursday 8th April in Easter Week, when, Brown reasons, all the Tory voters will be on Holiday.
216. It is old news, in the sense that exemptions were likely to be granted as it would be rather difficult for bar staff to charge higher prices for drinks after the New Year is rung in.
Imagine the aggro this measure would cause if the concession wasn’t granted for New Year’s Morning. “What do you mean the prices have gone up, pal. But its New Year, are you trying it on etc…” Nut.
However it is symptomatic of the cack handed thinking from a govenment which has run out of ideas, money and intellectual coherence.
I would have thought Helmer’s position is critical, to state that Cameron would have a referendum, only hours before its scrapped: he’s gotta UKIP.
It is disappointing that the Mark Thatcher/Simon Mann story is relegated to fourth in the news.
Wonder what MI5 told his mum about him during her Premiership.
re 31 well dissolution 2nd March actually
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/03/boris-johnson-saves-franny-armstrong
Anyone who thinks that whatever new policy is announced hasn’t been worked out in minute detail has to be living in cloudcuckooland. Everyone down to those with barely two braincells to rub together knew that this was where we were headed. Cameron has used the space that the Lisbon saga has given him to craft a policy in relative peace.
re 243 david didn’t you know you can get a postal vote for life these days. They’ll keep sending it even if you’ve moved on or died even.
NE fule kno it will be in June.
In the immortal words of Kenneth Willaims, Mike:
Ssstop messin a baahrrrt.
276 - Perhaps.
Or parhaps not.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1215421/Cameron-tries-ditch-attempt-delay-Lisbon-Treaty-referendum-letter-Czech-president.html
Presumably that was just to keep the dimmer sceptics on board?
277 “They’ll keep sending it even if you’ve … died.”
Chris - How exactly would you know? Is there something you need to tell us?
re 270 not only would parliament be prorogued on the 11th March but it would need to be dissolved on the 12th for an 8th April election.
Just a few months now until the peasantry (tim, coldstone, Nick Palmer etc.) is put back in its place. These ignorant children were allowed for 12 years to run riot and destroy everything in their path. With the nation almost bankrupt (as usual after Labour) and the absurd borrow, tax, spend-into-oblivion policies still in full force by Crash Gordon, it is time for these inferior people (tim etc.) to make way for their betters. No more left wing government enviously stealing from the successful. Time to simply accept you are underwhelming, underachieving people. There is only so long the hard working, responsible people are going to allow you failures to leech from the rest. Better get ready, bums. Back to where you belong. Lovely.
re 280 PtP I’ve only ever got a postal vote on on-off occasions but if you tick the right box then they’ll keep sending them unless you tell then you’ve gone to that great winners’ enclosure in the sky.
Re No 55
Here’s each constituency:
http://www.ucu.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=4210
Which constituency was the lowest ?
Who did they return as a M.P. ?
Some of you will enjoy that
283
re 284 well that explains everything then - the SW Norfolk Tories are thick.
One bad thing about a Tory government next year… with envious left wingers no longer able to steal from the successful, will inferiors like tim be able to afford internet? This place is not going to be as entertaining if they cant.
266 SeanT
I realise that you are distracted by a more pressing matter, but your argument is too absolutist.
Cameron can kill the referendum debate completely and unite his party (except perhaps on the looniest of fringes) by obtaining a manifesto mandate to take whatever action is necessary to renegotiate Britain’s relationship with the EU, up to, only if necessary and as a last resort, negotiating a full withdrawal.
In other words he exchanges a bounced Czech with an open cheque.
His actual intention will be to remain within the EU and to change from within what he dislikes. The withdrawal powers would only be used in extremis.
@279:
Occam’s Razor says probably, though.
I have to admit, I’m disappointed but not surprised at Klaus’s lack of fight. Where are the man’s cullions? However, on Lisbon itself, I have to admit to being quite relieved.
I always felt that Lisbon was a distraction; this party and this country were already unhappy with our current EU settlement, and arguing about a treaty nobody had read was keeping us from having a proper discussion.
Now, with Lisbon out of the way, the air is clear for us to finally and properly have that discussion about the UK’s relationship with the EU we’ve been putting off for years.
My suggestions:
1) A commitment to a bilateral relationship with the EU that will repatriate powers over agriculture, fisheries, social, justice and home affairs, foreign and security, immigration and asylum and some areas of environmental policy.
2) Having negotiated a bilateral repatriation treaty, put *that* to a referendum of the people of the UK.
3) Campaign aggresively for a top to bottom democratization of the EU, including direct election of the Presidents of the Council and Commission and the High Rep, and give the EP right of legislative initiative.
288 - What would be the question in the Referendum?
Stop Press: Boris’ Leadership Bid.
“My bike ride isn’t followed by a chauffer-driven jag!” says Boris. “I’m the real business, a big mean green machine - and I didn’t backslide on any referendum promise. Oh No!”
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2712247/Brave-Boris-to-the-rescue.html
Has anyone else noticed how much Boris would look like ‘Sir’ Ian Blair if he didn’t have the blond mop? Same body shape, too.
@290:
Something along the lines of “Do you support the passage into law of this treaty, returning substantial powers from the EU to the UK, whilst remaining a full member of the Union” or words to that effect.
290.
If it was left to Khammeroen, it would probably be:
“Could you kindly frame your own question and then answer it?”
216 The price of booze didn’t go down because they put alcohol duty up as a countervailing measue, they did the same with fuel duty. The overall effect was to tend towards an increase in price, as the VAT can be claimed back but the duty can’t.
289 - According to Tom Bradby the Tories are ruling out any sort of Referendum.
Hagues line of “we won’t let it rest” being mocked and called “lame” by Bradby FFS.
Here’s what Dave should say.
“The Conservative Party has grown up.
Anyone who does not trust me on Europe should leave the Party now.”
And then sit down.
282: ‘Just a few months now until the peasantry (tim, coldstone, Nick Palmer etc.) is put back in its place.’
Quite right! Sadly, the entire New Labour debacle came about because those of us of breeding were led to believe that Tony Blair was one of our own. Had we known that members of the underclass such as Brown would be worming their way in, we would have acted differently. Still, one lives and learns; and, as you say, it won’t be long before Brown is back working at his father’s Fife fish ‘n’ chip shop or whatever it is.
The Sun tomorrow:
Leads on Lisbon treaty - blaming Labour.
Not criticising Cameron.
290 tim
I assume your question is directed at Martin in 289 not me.
292. “Do you wish for HM Government to renegotiate the UK’s terms of membership in the EU?”
He’d get a big ‘Yes’ - and about 2 years grace to decide exactly which powers to repatriate.
@295:
You’re right, to a certain extent. Dave has certainly earned the benefit of the doubt from his party over Europe, but he’ll still need to indicate a general direction, and show evidence of the fabled Euro-cullions.
The biggest argument against a referendum on a repatriation of powers is that the result will be a foregone conclusion and therefore a waste of money.
I could still see it being cathartic, however.
It seems LordAlun has gone off-message yet again
http://twitter.com/BBCLauraK/status/5397661207
299.
You seem to have this ridiculous view that the Tory leader (and more especially those who pay his bills) seriously wants to change anything in Europe one iota. He’s probably the saddest man around that his alter-ego Bliar is not going to be Euro-pres. They’d have got on like a house on fire.
Cue crocodile tears….Spectator editorials…. Five Live outbursts… (yawn)
299 - And two years for the Tory party to rip itself apart while UKIP gains in by elections.
He’s not that stupid.
297 - The OFCOM/Lisbon accident.
300 - I’ve refined his speech to the Party further.
“Grow up or F#ck Off”
Yoinked from a UKIP troll at ConHome:
“My wife and I have just purchased tickets for ourselves and our son to New York leaving Friday. We will claim political ASYLUM when we arrive - there is no way they can refuse us as we are fleeing from a COMMUNIST facist superstate and they are the true beacons of LIBERTY and freedom reminaing.
God Bless America and pray for us all of you. The only question is do you think any of us will still be allowed to leave by tomorrow??”
Tee hee.
Can`t Conservatives just return to their honest position of parliamentary democracy and letting the elected representaives decide.
This was always their position, they have never held a referendum whilst in government over any serious constitutional change, and probably never will.
299. Another idea which would satisfy Conservatives and other eurosceptics would be to place a commitment to a renegotiation in the manifesto, and also a commitment to hold a referendum once the renegotiation is complete.
The only possible referendum can be ‘In’ or ‘Out’ once Lisbon is ratified. The referendum can be guaranteed to be held within six months of the Conservatives winning a second term.
Job done.
I blog the idea HERE.
I think the best way to loosen the ties of European federalism is to wage an aggressive pan-European campaign pointing out the consequences of dictats from Brussels in traditionally EU-philic countries.
For example, a pressure group could do some real damage with this in Italy
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1224954/Vaticans-fury-EU-court-bans-crucifixes-Italian-classroom-breach-religious-rights-children.html
I suspect that many anti-Labour posters have zero interest in responding to those who support the current HMG.
I can think of better things to do than rebut strawman arguments.
@303:
Most of the idiots already *have* facked off — to UKIP. It’s been notable how supportive the Tory blogosphere have been of Cameron’s new position.
Did you see Brogan’s article yesterday wondering where all the angry Tories have gone?
289. Martin: I fully agree with that.
DEATH WISH,starring boris johnson
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2712247/Brave-Boris-to-the-rescue.html
I could’nt see ken doing this.
306.
“The only possible referendum can be ‘In’ or ‘Out’ once Lisbon is ratified.”
Isn’t that stealing the official Lib Dem position?
MORE love-bombing????
You just couldn’t make Boris Johnson up.
He always seems to be in the right place in the right time to get the “and finally” story on the news.
302. You seem to be under the impression that I (and a lot of other people) give a sh1t what the Tory leader does or does not want. He doesn’t own the country, he doesn’t own the Tory party - and if sufficient voters decide he isn’t up to the job and isn’t offering them what they want he’ll be booted out pretty damn quick.
He is there on the sufferance of the members and he’s been busy upsetting the grass-roots over the past weeks - AWS, balls-ups in the open primaries, interfering in what is a local party decision in the Truss affair - and now the EU. He’s starting to look tarnished.
I’m not a tory though I am centre-right, but if he doesn’t come up with something credible, believable and above all strong enough in his statement tomorrow, then he’s lost my vote.
I may (repeat may) even vote Lab in the belief that another year or 18 months of them would bring the whole edifice crashing down and then we could start a new public/political consensus with a totally clean sheet.
311. Would capitulating Dave get involved either?
I can’t quite reconcile the new, Pro EU SeanT with the Anti-EU SeanT that ranted and raved all over this site when I first started posting here. Anybody else feel like that? :O
307 Wibbler
I think the best way to loosen the ties of European federalism is to wage an aggressive pan-European campaign pointing out the consequences of dictats from Brussels in traditionally EU-philic countries.
Agreed. That is why I have been arguing that Cameron’s first task should be to stabilise the ECR, align its policies, expand its membership and then resource it to conduct a full European campaign.
It is also why tim, NickP, Milliband et al have been conducting a smear campaign against the grouping with the intent of killing it off.
236 PtP
I never have thought it needed to be as mechanistic as that. I remain sure that if certain people tap him on the shoulder, point out a few stark realities and indicate that it is time to go (whilst making it clear he will be unceremoniously bundled out if need be), he would accept the inevitable and make it look as natural as possible.
From what I’ve heard, read and observed of Gordon Brown, he is a man who simply finds it impossible to listen to any criticism, discussion or divergence of opinion from his own, completely ignores any inconvenient or unpleasant facts, and views almost everyone but Gordon Brown as intellectually and in all other respects inferior. He is belligerent, bad tempered, arrogant, stubborn and pig headed beyond all reason.
Rightly or wrongly (presumably the latter) he is convinced that he - and nobody else - can lead the party to victory against all odds, and keep out the hated Tories. This is doubtless reinforced in him constantly by the Yes men he has in the bunker.
If you look at his words and actions over the last 2 years, it is difficult to conclude anything else.
If my assessment is correct then if the proverbial ‘certain people’ turn up to have a quiet chat with Gordon about his future, he would throw a wobbly, printer or nokia (possibly all 3) and tell them to get lost in no uncertain terms.
If the ‘certain person’ is Lord Mandelson of no fixed job title, it may be different - but only maybe. Remember what happened last time Mandy told him bad news - about not being leader of the Labour Party..
“Did you see Brogan’s article yesterday wondering where all the angry Tories have gone?”
Exactly, they have become either UKIPers, UKIPers doing a poor job at pretending to be tories or those who keep saying ‘I’m not a tory’ as if they either haven’t quite got used to the idea yet or think that being a tory is far too liberal a position to take.
316,was’nt it seant who posted something about enemies with-in,so we will be watching sean old boy
317 - Tonight the ECR are just another Pro Lisbon Group, with some squalid right wing pro CAP types in it.
And if the Czechs want to implode it, then I’m sure “Inside Track” Dan will be able to help stop them.
Ho Ho
319. Most Tories are angry about the Lisbon stitch up, but they’re also practical. So that means;
1. There anger is directed at Labour and the Lib-Dumbs, who have colluded in denying us our referendum.
2. They recognise Cam’s done what he could to get us a referendum, but once the treaty is ratified and becomes law, thats it. A referendum then would just be a waste of time and money.
304 - Martin, that’s what I did 30 years ago during the winter of discontent: not write a letter, just get on a plane.
It’s still a neat option
What’s all this wishy-wqashy namby-pamby nonsense about not being able to have a referendum on something that has already been ratified and enacted? No parliament can bind its successors. Any law can be repealed. Any treaty can be de-ratified. Any agreement can be disagreed. If Jacques Foreigner jumps up and down trying to pretend that it can’t be done, we should tell him to allez off.
Meanwhile, my instinctive thought about the Norfolk South West situation is that it’s probably just a minority of members of the local association who are whingeing for no reason other than that they didn’t want Ms Truss in the first place, and are clutching at straws to find excuses to try to get rid of her as their candidate. When the committee makes its decision in two weeks’ time, they will re-endorse her candidacy by a clear and substantial majority, and it will all blow over. If, on the other hand, they are stupid enough to de-select her, then there is no point in any wishy-washy namby-pamby half-measures like imposing an AWS, or de-registering the constituency association - we should just nuke Norfolk and be done with it once and for all. And they might vote for a UKIP MP just to be uppity about it.
P.S. It reminds me of the time when Tim Yeo had an affair, and was ordered by his local constituency party to resign from the government and concentrate on serving as a backbench MP. The statement was read out by a hideous old dragon who was about as wide as she was tall. If I had been Tim Yeo in such a situation I would have been tempted to tell her to fuff ock and mind her own business.
Ave it Boris, get in my son!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWIUp19bBoA
Ben Bradshaw urges ‘luvvies’ to defend BBC from Tories
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/03/ben-bradshaw-bbc-tories-luvvies
303 I see Tim has gone into complete loony land again.
Re: Lisbon treaty, it is a sad day that as British citizens have not been given a voice on the constitution of Europe, the worst of it is that we have been sold down the river just so New Labour rubbish can join the EU gravy train.
I am not sure how long tim will be celebrating as what people will remember from Lisbon is foremost Labour lies.
322 Yup.
All the noise, is media static.
324. Thats the point about the EU though, it DOES bind future parliaments. Of course our Parliament could de-ratify it, but if the rest of Europe wouldn’t renegotiate (which they wouldn’t) then de-ratifying would effectively mean withdrawal. Thats why, all the way along we should have been having referendums on these treaty’s, because in effect they do bind future parliaments.
326 - The guy is a moron. If you read the standard luvvie diatribe about the Thatcher era you would have thought it was a dictatorship replete with Gestapo etc.
tim, you are right to take as much pleasure as you can from what you perceive to be victories. But let us not forget that the only reason that Cameron and the Tories are in this position is because the Labour party lied in their election manifesto. There would be no issue if Brown had kept his word rather than lying. The people will not forget and Labour will be tossed out on their arse in the very near future.
Europe in the grand scheme of things is an anoraks argument, the real battlefield is
Authoritarianism
Bank bail outs
2.5 million unemployed
more video cameras per head of population than any other country
rising violent/knife crime
Petty bureaucracy
Declining standards in public life
Corruption in the house of lords and house of Parliament
and so much more that I can’t be bothered to go on.
You have so much to be proud of tim.
326. Could it be that Bradshaw is expecting to lose his seat, would love to go back to the beeb but is very much afraid that there won’t be the money for a fat contract?
Serves the b@stard right.
318 Tim B
The ‘certain people’ I had in mind comprised mainly Trade Union Leaders, whose members pay for the Labour Party, and senior Cabinet members, who would be able to confirm that he no longer had the support of his Cabinet. Do you think he would stay on if such people told him it was time to go? Even assuming he possesses all the negative qualities you state, I should think he might just go quietly if such people were to gently ask him ‘which window?’
Incidentally, you fail to mention another negative quality regularly mention in connection with Our Gord - lack of courage. If it is true that he lacks backbone, is he likely to lead his ragbag army into a hopeless battle?
Might I throw the Liberal Party’s official position into the debate?
http://www.liberal.org.uk/policies/internat.htm#eu
I personally differ from party policy in so much as I’m instinctively pro-single currency and most Liberals are instinctively anti-single currency - the rest of the European policy I totally agree with.
NEW THREAD AGES AGO
re 292 Martin the treaty has already “fully passed into law”. What would be point of asking that question when if answered in the negative means bugger all.
321 tim, I think you have at least 15 years of hilarity ahead of you, at which you can direct endless jibes at the behaviour of members of the Conservative government.
Your party’s behaviour over Lisbon is *one* of the reasons why the true nasty party of British politics is going to be crushed in the Spring.
332 Undoubtedly, Bradshaw expects to lose his seat next year.
333 - PtP
This is all fascinating conjecture, and I agree that everyone has a tipping point - a point at which it becomes impossible to remain in denial or self-delusion. You may well be right that if the paymasters from the unions turn up it will be ‘adios muchacho’ and off he’ll shuffle back to Raith Rovers games. But if they do arrive and he refuses to go, what then? Will they turn off the money taps so the Tories can waltz in? If he refuses to go, then if they pursue his departure Labour is into an internecine struggle with an election only months away.
Regarding the support of his cabinet, I doubt that he has it now. But as ‘cabinet government’ as we understand it has been put in abeyance by Blair and Brown, I don’t think it matters.
Regarding his lack of courage - well, there’s not much doubt about that. I just sense (and I could easily be wrong on this) that this is his “Churchill in 1940″ moment.
He feels that this is his destiny, what his life has been leading up to - after a decade of planning, scheming, and behind the scenes skulduggery - he has finally grasped the brass ring of the premiership, and nothing and nobody is going to prise it out of his grip until he is forced to let go. He has found a reason to fight this time - he is fighting to keep something he has and treasures greatly, rather than to gain something he doesn’t.
Brown feels that the coming battle is his date with destiny and that only he can lead the party to victory.
Is this unrealistic and self-delusional? Probably.
- man but it’s fun to speculate on this stuff!
339 LOL! I doubt we will ever find out,TimB.
I don’t have a terrifically high opinion of him, as you might gather, but even I don’t think he would bring the Party crashing down around his ears rather than go quietly.
But who knows….?
There won’t be a budget from this government before an election. FAr too dodgy. They might have to be honest or see the markets take control.
The budget can just about be put off until early May, say the first week. Any election needs three weeks campaigning - the shorter the better for Brown and Labour - the dissolution would have to be on 12 April, thus avoiding Easter week, for an election on 6th May.
This timetable should mean most people will still not be fully aware of the extra personal taxation and there is the chance of some helpful statistics - or Labour might think so, but after such a long recession it will be unlikely to do much good.
The Roosevelt sydrome of that other bunker. All hope no reality.
The talk of 25th March is baloney.