How vulnerable is Labour to this sort of attack?
October 19th, 2009
1929 Conservative poster - Wikimedia Commons
Could this still have potency - 80 years on?
While idly surfing the net over the weekend I came across this wonderful poster from the 1929 general election which seemed to resonate with the current political mood.
For Labour seems most vulnerable when the Daily Mail, and it is usually the Daily Mail, finds some new law or regulation that could have consequences way beyond the wrong that it was trying to deal with.
Remember last month’s rows about the requirement for massive extension of the number of adults to have CRB checks because of their proximity to children when doing quite ordinary things like driving them to school
I think that this is the sort of theme that Cameron had in mind with the “anti-big state” rhetoric in his Manchester speech. Somehow the Tory leader’s words on that occasion didn’t quite ring true and left him open on other issues.
Mike Smithson
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This poster would be good for the Tories.
All posters are good for the Tories.
Second!!
My best ever finish.
It might have potency in the sense that the use of the word ’socialist’ would make a lot of us nostalgic for the days when Labour actually was a social democratic party, let alone socialist.
Beyond that, if the Tories do go down this road, I’d just advise Cameron to give the ‘ver are your papers’ gag a miss in future. They’d also better hope that everyone’s forgotten that the last Tory government seemed quite keen on ID cards, among other things - a reminder that both Labour and Tory governments seem to become more authoritarian the longer they’re in office.
Posters then were clear and less slick than today. But posters today are wallpaper to be ignored and simply a way for rich men to get knighthoods for funding ad agencies by proxy.
These posters had impact and clarity, so many of the old posters had real impact whereas today they are diffuse and frankly tedious
gordon brown should not be on big brother, because he wants to play the role of big brother.
an ad campaign tv and posters with this tag line along with winston smith in 1984 having a face of brown peering at him changing the story as to why we need id cards and why they are fighting the taleban and al quida and saddam in eastasia eurasia style would also work.
that idea is copyright me by the way!
I think it would resonate yes, probably more so than in 1929 to be honest. Most people have had experience of the army or clipboard merchants.
That ‘tache looks like an early period mandelson.
nature over nuture?
Particularly if contrasted with the “one law for the them” attack: Mandelson, Scotland and assorted troughers get away with it.
But you miss the most important political story of the day: Camelot is increasing the cost of the Euro Millions Lottery to £2. This may or may not say something about the £/Euro exchange rate but it does mean often poorer (natural Labour supporting) players will have that little bit less left over at the end of the week.
This sort of quasi-tax is often overlooked. In the late 90s Conservatives were the sufferers as the costs of mobile phones and satellite television took their toll on its supporters.
Now these are enjoyed across the social scale and are far cheaper but still must be paid for.
If I were a Labour Party strategist I’d also wonder about the cost of FOBTs (roulette or high-tech fruit machines, if you like) in votes. Ignore addiction: people are losing £8 million a week from their family budgets. Likewise online bingo and overnight television premium rate quiz or roulette programmes.
Every little helps, as they say.
LAB 204-207
CON 356-359
LD 50-52
extrabet have upped the Labour Spread by no less that 6 points ! I advised a BUY at 203 and that one is already in the money.
The interesting one is the Lib Dems.Despite wild fluctuations in polling figures, their price is the most stable and has hardly moved this month.
On Topic. That is one scary ad. The ‘victim’ looks less sympathetic than the torturors.
Particularly if contrasted with the “one law for the them” attack: Mandelson, Scotland and assorted troughers get away with it.
Not sure why I am suddenly subject to moderation!
Printed under the poster should be the the phrase, “We hate to say we told you so, but….”
Or “we were right then and we are right now”
—> Without Labour’s Authoritarianism, an Explosion of Ruthless Egotism?
Labour might try to neutralise Cameron’s “anti-big state” rhetoric by playing on a BASIC FEAR, the fear that UK’s entire social fabric will disintegrate under the Tories…
…that without Labour in power, the self-enclosed ivory tower of England will be shattered by the intrusion of the reality of social chaos, violence and hunger…
Labour claims to be the party of solidarity coze they play on a powerful feeling : that of the fragility of our social bond.
They might want the voting population to believe that with the Tory, any challenge to the social fabric will lead to the explosion of the most ruthless egotism, instead of a surge of social solidarity:
First, there will be a momentary relief: Gordon Brown is gone…
But soon afterward things will start to go really wrong…
Egotism and greed will rule…
The forces of Law and Order for which Labour stands, confronted with the the Conservative’s radical capitalism, the logic of individualist competition, will lose..
Social order will disintegrate…
Human nature will win the fight over the force of civilization that keeps it in check…
Labour can play imaginatively with race relations, and our prejudicial attitudes toward strangers, with the slogan: WHEN NOTHING WORKS, ANYTHING GOES…
They might as well portray the Tories as some dark spiritual force threatening to explode the social fabric, in the like of vampires, living dead and voodoo…
Without Labour’s permanent control and surveillance, will not the UK descent into chaos, regressed to a wild preserve of free looting, killing and rapes? London might become the city of the dead and dying, a post-apocalyptic Zone devoid of any civil order…
What we see THERE, on TV, (in Kabul, Baghdad, Somalia, Liberia), might happen HERE…
HA! HAHAHAHAHA!
The whole Big Brother state from ID cards to intrusive laws does repel civil liberties voters from Labour.
Nick Clegg’s LibDems ought to make more of this but, alas, are serious politicians who would rather discuss tax policies of a government they can never form.
The question of where the Conservatives stand should not matter in the short term. In the recent past they have supported ID cards, and it is said some of Cameron’s set were suspicious of David Davis’s civil liberties agenda, but these questions can wait till after Sam’s measured the curtains.
Labour might try to neutralise Cameron’s “anti-big state” rhetoric by playing on a BASIC FEAR, the fear that UK’s entire social fabric will disintegrate under the Tories…
First, there will be a momentary relief: Gordon Brown is gone…
But soon afterward things will start to go really wrong…
Egotism and greed will rule…
The forces of Law and Order for which Labour stands, confronted with the the Conservative’s radical capitalism, the logic of individualist competition, will lose..
Social order will disintegrate…
Human nature will win the fight over the force of civilization that keeps it in check…
Labour claims to be the party of solidarity coze they play on a very powerful feeling : that of the fragility of our social bond. Might it not be a good strategy for Labour to make the people believe that with the Tories, any challenge to the social fabric will lead to the explosion of the most ruthless egotism, instead of a surge of social solidarity?
Without Labour in power, the self-enclosed ivory tower of England will be shattered by the intrusion of the reality of social chaos, violence and hunger…
Labour can play imaginatively with race relations, and our prejudicial attitudes toward strangers, with the slogan: WHEN NOTHING WORKS, ANYTHING GOES…
They might as well portray the Tories as some dark spiritual force threatening to explode the social fabric, in the like of vampires, living dead and voodoo…
Without Labour’s permanent control and surveillance, will not the UK descent into chaos, regressed to a wild preserve of free looting, killing and rapes? London might become the city of the dead and dying, a post-apocalyptic Zone devoid of any civil order…
What we see THERE, on TV, (in Kaboum, Baghdad, S0mal1a, L1beria), might happen HERE…
Is tim the fellow at the bottom left?
How many pbers “enjoyed” cold toast a la Anglais for breakfast?
Peoples’ concerns with the economy are growing.
Brown will try to keep borrowing to the max right up to the election. The stock market might hold up all the way as it is so heavily subsidised and maybe house prices.
If the economy were to trip up once more between now and May 2010, however, Brown would finally disintegrate. The other issues would become secondary.
The concept of personal freedom is relative. Older people are very aware as to how the state has taken over our lives. Younger people could not imagine any other way so it’s not an issue for them.
The young see unemployment. Low wages. High house prices. And feel aggrieved.
They are turning blue faster than the middle aged, who probably remember a freer more relaxed age but have given up hope of ever seeing such a happy state return.
I suggest they use a very sinister poster - all black but with a pair of red eyes. The caption should probably read:
NEW LABOUR - SAME OLD DANGER
16, Tapestry - and as the Duke of Edinburgh recently noted, they can’t even program their TV to record “Antiques Road Show”!
But perhaps something will turn the tide. Like Tahiti invading Pitcairn Island?
Good morning all,
I wondered if you could help. I remember a couple of weeks ago someone suggesting a wireless security package we could download to ensure that we are better protected when using wireless. Can anyone remember its name and where I could get it from?
Thanks in advance,
James M
Done properly the message will certainly resonate. Labour won’t stop until it has a spy for each of us, like much of the old Soviet block.
As James Burdett @ 9 says, we have a length of experience of Labour that was missing in 1929, when the message might have just been seen as scare mongering.
However as a Tory I am embarrassed to agree with James Kelly @ 3
Both Labour and Tory governments seem to become more authoritarian the longer they’re in office.
Of course it is not just Tories - Chocolate Orange anyone:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4580778.stm
Come to think about remember the internal market in the NHS. No inspectors and faceless bureaucrats there.
Do you want more border police.
Do you want more regulation of the banks.
Do you want more regulation of buy to let mortgages.
Do you want more benefit fraud investigated.
etc etc.
It depends on what question you ask.
Politically the important angle is which party’s will reverse which measures.
15 re cold toast (SSI)
Eh? Is this a sophisticated political allusion? Am I the only one who doesn’t get it?
Do you want more regulation of the banks.
or
Do you want a regulatory system that actually works and is free from political interference.
This more versus less argument is boring. What we need is effective regulation which is probably (but not necessarily) in the less direction.
21 -
Vote Conservative?
O/T
But if anyone wanted confirmation that all the climate change stuff is complete rubbish, Brown’s claim today that the world has 50 days to save the climate, surely confirms it.
Couple of stories in Times this morning to make gordo lob a Nokia
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6880228.ece
Employers yesterday called upon the Government to get to grips with its ballooning debts as a new study put the true size of the public sector’s net liabilities at £2,200 billion, almost three times official figures.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6880318.ece
“The Government’s own neighbourhood crime adviser has accused Gordon Brown of letting people down on antisocial behaviour.
Louise Casey said that not enough was being done to stop yobs making other people’s lives a misery. She said that, unless police and councils got a grip on the problem, it would pass from generation to generation.”
Labour btter plan another relaunch
23 - Or, as Nick Herbert seems to have just proposed on Radio4, do you want a new system of regualation and inspection of Fox Hunts.
26 re yobs and ASBOs
A lurch back to authoritarianism after only two dozen posts?
Maybe tim @ 21 was right: it depends which questions you ask.
@15 - I like cold toasts with hot water in the morning — for I don’t believe in jam and tea!
Barry Sheerman just called Ed Balls a “bully” on the Today programme: http://tinyurl.com/yhhhwv5
30 You beat me to it, I was just about to post about it when your comment hit the site. It really was a remarkable interview as you say, well worth listening to again.
Is there no such thing as bad publicity.?
26 - Louise Casey is a fruitcake - on this one, much as it pains me, i’m with Gordon - uuurrgghh
30 & 31 - awesome wasn’t it. Although couldn’t understand why he thought they should report to the select committee rather than sec of state but good stuff
I’d like to think that it would resonate, but I fear that it wouldn’t. My own impression is that many people rather like being told what to do by officials. It relieves them of the necessity of thinking for themselves.
FPT David Lindsey’s article at 249. Does that make me a traitor, for using fax, e-mail, and couriers?
32,28,26 re crime czar Louise Casey blames Gordon Brown for yobs
The whole article seems odd, moving seamlessly from quoting anonymous “friends” to the woman herself: “Friends of Ms Casey believe that the split allowed the policy to drift. She said: …”
Since “friends of X” invariably means X, how do we interpret it here? That Casey did not go far enough for The Times’s agenda? That it started out as an anonymous piece?
Why is 34 in moderation?
Saddo @ 25
In the words of Bjorn Lomborg:
Global Warming is a 100 year problem, we shouldn’t try to solve it in 10.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/50-Days-To-Save-World-Gordon-Browns-Message-To-World-Leaders-On-Climate-Change-Ahead-Of-Copenhagen/Article/200910315408565?lpos=Politics_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15408565_50_Days_To_Save_World%3A_Gordon_Browns_Message_To_World_Leaders_On_Climate_Change_Ahead_Of_Copenhagen
Four Foxes Ache - It is more like 50 days to save the world, from Gordon Brown. Looks as if he has lost the plot.
37 So the world will be saved before the General Election. Phew, what a relief that will be…
36, on the contrary. If we do not cease all unnecessary industrial activity (cars driven by Conservatives must be crushed, non-union buildings must be deprived of heating, water, and demolished just to be safe etc) we will all be killed the day after Copenhagen.
It’s alarmist nonsense that will probably do further damage to any prospect of an economic recovery. No wonder Brown’s so excited.
Fifty days to save Gordon Brown, more like….
In 1929, socialism was trendy and for many it was the “great white hope” of politics. Nowadays we know the truth - socialism is communism dressed up for the gullible and it destroys lives and economies.
Back in ‘29 I’m sure the poster was ignored. Today it would resonate with anyone who is a victim of Labour’s clipboard army. In other words, everyone.
40. From a richly deserved drubbing.
If he does believe the 50 Days To Save The World, then the rumours about his fragile psychiatric true will have more credence. Is this the evidence to show he has lost it?
Our dear leader seems determined to rule us by fear.
Mike - What time today, do you announce who is the PB pollster?
Did the fieldwork go ok, and are we still expecting to see the poll Tomorrow/Wednesday?
O/T, but I was thinking further about David Lindsey’s blogpost.
IMHO, the Royal Mail ought to have been privatised at the same time as BT. It would probably have a secure future now, had that been done, but that’s water under the bridge.
The management of Royal Mail seem to be a pretty unpleasent bunch, but, OTOH, I don’t see what a strike will achieve for the workers. More people will just switch away from using post, in favour of other forms of communication, making a bad situation worse. Unless we’re prepared to outlaw Broadband, e-mails, couriers, faxes etc. , it’s ridiculous to suppose that we could maintain a monopoly on postal deliverty for Royal Mail.
Yet, if nothing is done, the service will die by a thousand cuts. The profitable commercial business will be cherry-picked, leaving the loss-making private delivery service with Royal Mail. The answer must surely lie in enabling Royal Mail to charge for private deliveries at a rate that allows for a reasonable return on capital. If it costs more to send a letter from London to Orkney than from London to Reading, why shouldn’t Royal Mail be able to charge accordingly?
It has similarities to William Hagues “24 hours to save the pound” soundbite from the 2001 election.
What a lot of good that did him..
On topic
Judging by the reality of life in modern Britain with inspectors, commissioners, Czars, quangos and the like coming out of our ears, it would seem the poster was right then, and right now. Thsi9 government is a collective control freak.
It’s a powerful message which many people are instinctively supportive of.
Sheerman has really gone for Balls in the media. It comes across like Widdecombe’s “something of the night” attack on Howard.
It suggests that Balls chances of being next Labour Leader should be very long odds.
The Daily Mail -self styled voice of the `silent majority` -heaven forbid …
Copenhagen won’t happen. It definitely won’t happen if Gordon is stalking Obama.
Has a PM ever been arrested for ‘inappropriate behaviour’?
Morning all,
How prophetic was that poster?
Given Labours current penchance for interfering and surveillance perhaps the Conservatives could try:
‘An Inspector in every home’
(tying it to the growth of the public sector debt)
However, I suspect its lack of resonance in the 1929 election may have had something to do with the economic climate and employment much as the same will be true in 2010. State interference and, in these days, surveillance will be a secondary issue but it is something that I suspect will provide one of the underlying narratives for the election. However, I don’t think it will be the decisive issue.
13. Philippe Magnan,
The Conservatives have already used the ‘Broken Britain’ narrative to some success, so if society et al are already broken how can the Conservatives break it? Such an approach from Labour will only work for those who already would not vote Conservative.
Labour are already trying to suggest that the Conservatives will makes thing worse but of course given their dismal track record in Government they don’t have much credibility and as such I’m not convinced that any narrative they use against the Conservatives will gain much traction unless something else happens (either they miraculously sort out their own act or the Conservatives seriously screw up).
Given Brown’s latest over-dramatic piece of oratorical hysteria on climate change today (50 days to save the world [sic]) there is little sign that the former is going to happen. Brown should realise he is not trying to sell the script of a movie to Hollywood producers but actually is the leader of one of the world’s most influential countries. Something he has perpetually failed to do so far.
All this means the election is all down to the Conservatives. What they do or don’t do will define the election result…….
Well as most Tory posters to this site, seem to be convinced that the Mail is a Labour paper, working hand in glove with Gordon Brown, not a lot!
The British peoples attitude to government is a curious one, ‘We don’t want the government interfering in our lives’ and when things go wrong its, ‘Why didn’t the government do something about it, and ‘What’s the government going to do about it now’
50 In the bowels of a conference centre kitchens, dark suited dudes with shades and earpieces, guns drawn, are instructing Gordon:
“Sir, you are in breach of the Restraining Order: step away from the President…”
45 Royal Mail (Sean Fear)
I’m no authority but sfaict in its drive for privatisation, management has cut services, cut workers, and turned a pension surplus into a black hole.
As with the utilities, Tory and Labour free market fantasists see no objection to its ownership by foreign states, just not our own.
This is great, dear ‘ol Boris, whose been defending the city and bankers, with every fibre of his being, has suddenly realised there could be votes in knocking ‘em
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6371140/The-barefaced-greed-of-bankers-and-their-bonuses-beggars-belief.html
Its Red Boris from now on.
I don’t think it was very widely used in 1929 - the main message was “Safety First - vote for Baldwin, a man you can trust” which was generally agreed to be rather uninspiring. The issue of unemployment was the most pressing one, and is generally agreed to have cost the Tories the election - sadly ironic given that nine months later the Wall Street Crash caused it to rocket.
Can I please point out to 41 though that socialism was not “trendy” in 1929 nor was it the “great white hope” - the “chattering classes” as we would now call them preferred the Liberals of Lloyd George, fighting on an early Keynesian style (”We Can Conquer Unemployment”) but couldn’t win them more than the balance of power. It wasn’t until the 1930s that socialism came to be seen as “trendy” and possibly an answer for the ills and failures of 30 years of largely uninterrupted Conservative rule. Previously it was viewed largely with suspicion - much as you view it now!
52. There is nothing curious about people’s attitude’s Coldstone. It’s simply:
‘Don’t interfere with ‘us’, we’re good citizens but sort ‘them’ nasties over there out’.
Trouble for Labour (and the public sector) is that they used to be part of ‘us’ now they’re ‘them’. It’s all about changing attitudes…..
What was home ownership in 1929? I would guess under 20%? In 1914 home ownership in Britain stood at only 10%, rising to around 49% in 1971. Owner occupation in the UK boomed from the 1950s onwards, overtaking the private rented sector in 1961.
Last year it was 69%, a drop on the peak of 71% in 2000.
Even at 69% there is today probably a three fold increase in the proportion of voters that the poster at the top would appeal to, than in 1929.
Brown is responding to widespread speculation among those who worry about these things (including me but maybe not dr spyn) that the Copenhagen summit will fail to make significant progress. MPs in my soert of area have been swimming in letters and cards for weeks from campaigners (Friends of the Earth, Christian Aid, etc.) urging that Brown leads the British delegation and ‘takes the same sort of lead as he did on the economic agenda’. They do think that failure will mean an increased risk of global disaster.
While this is not a key issue for most people, it certainly fills MPs’ postbags more than the “snoopers’ charter” sort of stories (back on topic). The difficulty about campaigning on that is that all the parties and many of the voters themselves are in two minds about it. In a general sort of way I think most voters would subscribe to something like “the State is too intrusive”. But they’d also subscribe to “the police are too hamstrung by human rights law”. CCTV is the classic example - many people vaguely feel worried by the “surveillance state” but demand more cameras in local areas with ASB - and that includes local Conservative councillors.
It does shift a few votes, generally to the LibDems (libertarians tend to feel the Tories have form), but it’s a niche issue, like hunting. I have some committed ex-Tory voters who have never Labour before; their party’s position on hunting has driven them away. It comes up more than snooping, but neither come up very often.
Surely this is the most iconic and damaging poster to Labour ever? I can see it getting an airing at the next General Election.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/images/2008/12/11/labourisntworking.jpg
Talking of posters of this theme perhaps the Conservatives might want to produce a movie style poster with the following punch line:
Gordon Brown IS the RED under the bed
With a suitably seedy graphic to emphasise it!
53
“But if we can just talk I’m sure he’ll see…”
Bang!
61, Brown playing with a farmy-farm? Sitting on a rocking horse with a lunatic glint in his eye?
57
Really! yeah of course everybody is, ‘those over there’ but us. Of course we’re ‘those over there’ to them.
Talking of the Mail, didn’t the Mirror run this story?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221250/High-Street-Sam-More-like-search-high-low-Samantha-Cameron-sparks-UK-wide-search-M-amp-S-dress.html
59. Nick Palmer:
Come on Nick
50 days to save the world is hysterical
More accurately it should be:
<50 days to save his job
Incidentally, how many former Labour voters in your Constituency are now ‘Labour voters for Cameron’? Huh?
55 Services have been cut to avoid losing money. And, your comment doesn’t really answer the question of where do we go from here?
Talking about the Mail again, its also running this.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1221296/JANET-STREET-PORTER-Being-gay-killed-man-week–wasnt-Stephen-Gately.html
Any ideas why?
Biccy-gate just won’t go away…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6880386.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=6848714
In this mornings Coffee House Blog (Spectator), there is a large discussion going on about the recent rise of the BNP.
Under the heading “The horror story of the BNP’s success is not over”, one person pointed out that:
The tremendous amount of comment in today”s media about BNP, Nick Griffin et al might indicate that the political climate is changing from being laid back to intent interest in change.If this is true then the next election could well show increased voter involvement which might be supportive of independents and smaller parties who could send the establishmentarian parties into oblivion.No wonder that the status quo troughers, quangoers and men of power are shaking in their boots and sending their minions in the media, the unions and churches to blackball, ostracise and tarnish the policies and reputations of all those who see and say how misguided is this poor little country.
W Smith
October 19th, 2009 2:03am
I tend to agree with with this argument regarding the smaller parties at the next GE.
64. Coldstone.
Talking of the Mail, didn’t the Mirror run this story?
I dunno I wouldn’t even use the Mirror to wipe my *rse let alone read it…….
67. You just can’t stay off this subject, can you?
70
You should read everything!
Its started, ‘Europe’ the reef which will sink the next Tory government.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/6371529/David-Cameron-must-be-true-to-his-word-on-Europe.html
48 and others. Sheerman on Balls is here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8313000/8313781.stm
@67:
Best guess, Dacre’s trying to make amends for Moirgate by running homo-sympathetic articles for a few days. It’s the second from the Mail in three days.
I’m sure they’ll be back merrily gaybashing by Thursday, mind.
71
You should explore and investigate and discuss, every subject, nothing should be off limits.
67. Have you written to the Labour Party demanding that Jack Straw resign and condemning the Labour leadership for protecting and promoting him yet ?
There is no way that They would allow smoke to be coming from the chimney in the poster. Well not for the next 50 days…
72. Is that another dictat from the Labour supreme committee?
Five Labour MPs have warned Gordon Brown that they are ready to trigger hugely damaging by-elections if they are ordered to pay back their expenses.
In a move that puts huge pressure on the Prime Minister, the Evening Standard has learned that the hard core of refuseniks are determined to quit rather than repay tens of thousands of pounds claimed for cleaning, gardening and mortgages.
Chief whip Nick Brown has been told by the rebels that they will act unless the Government reconsiders plans to force MPs to comply with retrospective caps on spending imposed by expenses adviser Sir Thomas Legg.
All of the veteran MPs involved are set to stand down at the next election and feel able to defy the authority of the whips. One senior Commons figure said that the threat of five by-elections was “Gordon’s winter nightmare”.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23757988-mps-ready-to-quit-rather-than-pay-back-expenses.do
75. And another dictat is that?
@72:
Perhaps you’d care to explain how the Conservative Party will be sunk by the reef of near universal agreement about Europe?
The EU is the issue on which the party sees more uniformity of opinion than almost any other subject.
79, opportunity for Brown.
Tell them to go to hell, then campaign in person in the constituency saying that the Commons has no need for grasping chancers who place their bank balance ahead of the public interest.
79
The rebels have got it all wrong. Five isnt enough. Make it 34 Labour MP’s , let them all lose,and its bye bye Gordo. QED
78
If it is its a good one, If I’d said, you should only read what you approve of, (which is your point of view) then you’d have a point.
I read all the newspapers, (on line) the Spekkie, NS the lot, doesn’t matter what your beliefs are, (beliefs, only given to us, so real life can piss all over them) read it all, you don’t have to agree with it.
@84:
You must have a lot of time on your hands.
In general, I tend to read only those articles I suspect will have the largest entertainment potential. Yer Pollies, Melanies, Hundals etc.
81
Because Cameron will never, ever, agree to what the Eurosceptics, really, really want, which is out of Europe, as once in power they’ll make their number one priority.
POLL ALERT APOLOGY!!
I posted a few days ago that there was a new YouGov Welsh poll due out tommorrow - Sorry I was one week early and it is actually next Tuesday 27th October. But it will be a very much needed poll on Welsh voting patterns as well as including data on Welsh Labour Leadership and devolution.
There will also be another Welsh poll out in November commissioned by the All-Wales Convention, primarily dealing with attitudes to devolution.
FPT. 346. Sea Shanty, Just for you. http://www.comebacktoayrshire.com/
86
I dont agree Coldstone. Most Eurosceptics IMHO are happy to be in Europe as a trading area.They dont want to be governed by Europe.
@86:
You fail to understand the Conservative mindset about the EU, rooted as it seems to be in prejudices you formed circa 1993.
The party now almost universally acknowledges the need for a massive repatriation of power from the EU. The only disagreements are rather wonkish ones about tactics.
This is not the stuff of which “splits” narratives are born.
If James kelly is still around, James must commend you on your never ending task of trying to get a sensible political opinion from Christina. Her Dave Cameron specs blind her to all the realities of life in Scotland and transport her to a Tory Nirvana.
90
Give it two years, thats all, and Cameron will be talking about, ‘bastards’ they want out, all this powers stuff, just a smokescreen.
MalcolmG good morning. FPT after you went to bed:
you seem to have fallen out of the self-importance tree and hit every single branch on the way down. Why you think that anyone responding to your posts is obliged to be able to place them in overall context in the oeuvre of MalcolmG viewed as a whole baffles me. I don’t particularly remember them and a quick site search provides a plausible reason why this should be: viz. that they are not particularly memorable. tim dissolved in dilute urine is the general impression i get, and if i am missing some brilliantly ironic subtext that is something i will learn to live with.
84. I won’t bother dissecting the fallability of your argument but instead suffice by saying so what’s wrong with just saying ‘People can read what they want’?
It’s something I’ve found with too many leftie types. They have to impose their views on everybody they can.
A classic example is when whichever non entity minister comes on the screen and says ‘The people must understand…’. No we mustn’t……..
@92:
You believe that David Cameron is a secret Europhile?
How sweet.
Interesting balance of views on R5 BNP phone-in - most do not like Hain’s stance of no-platform and want to debate the issues.
Interesting change in the tide.
92
Two years!
Cameron, he’s ‘The Nowhere Man’
79. Who are the five? They don’t exist. Hippopotamuses don’t grow on trees unless the sun is shining. The whole expenses fiasco has thrown a spanner in the ointment, and it’s time for the lemmings to come home to roost before Legg realises that the game is not worth the candle it’s written on.
98
Very vulnerable. We already know that in the 12 years they’ve being damaging the country practically one of the only growth areas has been new Labour’s desire to capture everyone in the country in at least one database. Labour have always been snoopers into people’s privacy and the general populace has usually been too stupid to prevent them.
Morning all.
Brilliant 1929 poster - how right they were!
The row over the Legg repayment demands looks set to continue to be the dominant political story of the next few weeks, perhaps indeed all the way to the election. The crunch point will the formal presentation of his report to the Members’ Estimates Committee on the 9th of November, followed by a vote by the whole House on the Committee’s report. It looks as though the fireworks season will be continuing long after 5th November this year.
This can only add to the poor morale on the Labour side. At least the Conservatives have the consolation that they hope to be on the winning side at the GE, but Labour MPs don’t even have that. I’d expect a substantial number of Labour MPs, plus some from other parties, to vote against the Legg proposals, with some embarrassing high-profile criticism of Gordon Brown in the House.
However, as others have pointed out on PB.com, the effect may paradoxically be to help keep Brown in place, as an putsch will look as though MPs are simply throwing their toys out of their prams in anger at their troughing being challenged. Personally I have some sympathy with MPs, but the public as a whole won’t, so any challenges to Legg will be electorally toxic.
I’m surprised that the spreads haven’t moved in the LibDems’ favour; they are likely to benefit from Legg, despite their own strategic disarray.
97. You still in the huff because Boris Island got a full page article in the Times yesterday
59. We can have more CCTV without the ’surveillance state’, in the same way as we could have had ID cards without the intrusive databases.
Its the linking up that is the problem.
re 37/38 but wasn’t saving the world the once good enough for Gordon?
101
You don’t mean this do you?
http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis/qy48ac8cuu.html
Hmmm one in the eye for Red Boris who’ll soon be striding into the City as Savonarola calling for the, ‘Burning of the Vanities’
Guido has a pop at Frank Field and his refusenik stance
http://order-order.com/2009/10/19/is-frank-field-really-so-saintly/
Good Morning World Champion Voters For Nick Palmer Worldwide
Meanwhile …. Tory shadow culture bod Jeremy Hunt wants to “rip up” the BBC Royal Charter. A spell in the Tower seems on the cards :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8313694.stm
Meanwhile II …. Ah 1929 election posters !! The nostalgia ….
Jack W is 107.
Surely it should read:
“If you want to call oursouls your own” vote Conservative?
With all their pocket-filling activities matching GideO’s flippers pound for pound, Labour these days is surely to socialism as concrete is to wombat?
103 Why don’t you use your time to post positive Labour policy stories occasionally?
This is something that is rarely done on here by those who would prefer five more years of Labour.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6879656.ece
Oakervee’s report, which is to be published tomorrow, identifies “no overwhelming obstacles” to building the airport. It says concerns about bird strikes are overstated because the runways would be several miles from the coastal mudflats where thousands of migrating birds congregate, and shipping lanes would not be disturbed.
Coldstone - you should be for the airport as Cameron isn’t - my enemies enemy and all that..
74. Well, if it knocks twenty years off the average male life expectancy, shouldnt it be bashed a bit?
59.
“Its Red Boris from now on.”
His seamless transition into Boris Yeltsin continues da by da.
74 = 78
@112:
Did you miss the bit where Legg found that Osborne has nothing to repay?
80 years on and nothings really changed. Labour still snooping and spying on everyone.
I would guess we’ll get the ICM/Guardian poll this evening. I suspect it’ll show quite a big drop in Tory support from the last ICM
Is Gordon saving the world again? How exciting!
@119:
Why?
This is one for those who like discussing political EU bedfellows.
118.
You’re pulling my Legg! That report has only dealt with the trivia. Jaquiebooties and GideO are in another league. Admittedly GideO is not suitable for imprisonment. The stocks, maybe, with a sign round his neck showing his real name which seems to embarrass him even more than associations with Mandelson asnd Bullingdon.
If it takes Gordon 50 days to save the world, he has time to save FOUR WHOLE WORLDS before he leaves office.
115 - What is the “it” that knocks twenty years off male life expectancy?
113. Plato. You mean there are positive Labour stories?
120. Yep he’s put on the spandex leotard again.
Gordon goes from Jonah to Noah - saving the world from the waves lapping at our doors.
@122:
So, despite having been exonerated by a man most MPs are claiming is being too strict, you refuse (on the apparent basis of no evidence at all) to believe that George Osborne has done nothing wrong?
126 Well…I did say ‘occasionally’
127. It’s hard to believe we have such a deranged individual as Prime Minister.
97. I read your guff earlier FPT, the fact that you are stupid enough to post it twice says it all.
113
I take it that was intended for me, why?
I fully except that government’s will change, it would be silly not to, as all the evidence points that way, its when not if.
I’m not interested in promoting the Labour Party in the hope it’ll get another five years.
Its simple. On the first day a government takes office, a microscopic piece of shit, sticks to it, and the next day another, eventually the weight of the shit will drag it down, thats what always happens, the party is irrelevant.
I’m a crusty ‘ol lefty, but I expect change, I even welcome it, ‘cos once the Tories are in, it’ll be fun, fun, fun:for me, you might not enjoy it so much.
I’m looking for a Nomaj, but as I see Moggie is floating it as a possibilty, I’m thinking of changing.
65: Gordon’s 50 days.
This morning on the Today programme, the Chinese estimated that their Carbon Emissions would peak between 2030 and 2040.
How will Gordon persuade them to accelerate matters?
Also, over the last 12 years, his party has failed this country in leadership regarding the development of renewable energy. This has not been helped by devolution, where each of the countries in the UK appears to have their own, very late, independent programmes.
The UK has excellent potential tidal and off-shore wind resources with some good thermal heating. All of these could now be coming into place if any sort of joined-up and long term thinking and a co-ordinated research and development programme had been put in place.
Alternative energy is required for both political and economic reasons. This has been blindingly obvious to anyone except a government that cannot see beyond creating short term insulation jobs.
Now Gordon adopts panic mode as an example of global leadership. The rest of the world will see this as yet another example of his failure to engage in long term thinking and planning.
Unfortunately he has wasted the financial resources that could have been used over the last 12 years to make the UK a world leader in renewable energy. Instead that mantle has gone to the USA and Gemany, amongst others.
Pater Viggers to join the refuseniks?
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/Sir-Peter-Viggers-in-new.5744636.jp
A nice summary of how FUBAR we still are:
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2009/10/19/78481/its-still-a-long-way-back-to-normal-for-the-us-uk-and-spain/
121. The last ICM had the Conservatives at 45%, which is quite a bit above the 40-41% Conservative polling average.
131 Didn’t Tony say we only had 24hrs to save the NHS as well?
Gordon’s apocalyptic language just sounds completely stupid to my ears - whoever came up with this 50 days to save the world stuff needs a slap.
I notice that the latest advertising campaign featuring drowning cartoon dogs has been referred to the ASA too.
113. Plato , Bit drastic shouting at yourself at 103.
73
The BNP are eating Labour’s lunch.
Or rather they are trying to fill the Labour shaped hole in various communities.
Strange, The SDP, Militant, even NuLabour, and now the BNP.
128 - Martin, the allegations regarding Osborne predate the Legg inquiry and are being investigated by Lyons.
Legg asked him for more information on his mortgage.
132 Typical of yer average Socialist is our Coldstone; never lives in the here and now of acknowledging an ongoing Labour f*ck-up - just in the past of Fattcha and in anticipatory glee of throwing rocks at Tories for taking tough decisions sorting out the inherited mess.
T’was ever thus.
To be fair Gords just doing his job by ramping up the apocalyptic rhetoric on Climate Change. As Copenhangen is getting closer, the warnings of the climate change lobby has been getting incrasingly shrill and OTT - Just look at last weeks absurd warning about the arctic going ice free in the summer within ten years - Brown is just playing along.
139 Before the numbers changed it was a polite question for coldstone.
Shouting?
142. When did we last have politicians who led, rather being led by the nose by various lobby groups and special interests?
131 thanks. i will consider that very carefully in the light of the whole body of your overwhelmingly important and interesting contributions to this site. i wouldnt want to rush that.
and don’t tell lies about going to bed. porky pies are tim’s department.
136
The last poll I heard about was one mentioned on the BBC which had a Conservative lead ‘down to 11%’ and ‘Labour had picked up three points from the conference’, ‘It should offer some encouragement to Labour supporters’
113 Plato
I would suggest tentatively that the 50 days to save the world story is a good story for Labour.
Of course there is debate as to the validity of the global warming argument, but as most governments seem to accept it and that someting needs to be done, GB iis trying to point out that a deal/agreement is nowhere near agreed and, as such, there is a danger of nothing getting done.
In essence, it is a ‘Britain takes the lead in urgency’/'Call to arms’ story.
If he believes in global warming and that a deal will not happen the way things are and DIDN’T speak out, that would be a bad news story for him.
It is because of his relative position in the eyes of the electorate here that this will be seen negatively.
134
The Gosport Tory claimed more than £30,000 during a three-year period for gardening, including the cost of 28 tons of manure
Now that’s one Tory that was worth his weight in shit.
145. I’m starting to think MalcomG is shaping up as a worthy successor to the late lamented ColinW.
I love this poster.
Nothing changes. It encapsulates the debate perfectly. It’s about the inherent darkness of the Left and the respect and trust in individual people that Conservatives hold.
CCHQ should just reprint it.
Meantime on Boris Islan, Decisive Dave needs to make a decision.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23758032-david-cameron-must-decide-on-boris-island.do
And on the subject of inspectors and Quangos.
Lets have another say the Tories.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8313860.stm
What will they choose?
OffFox?
I prefer FoxOff.
@148:
I think he should repay it in kind. Turn up to Westminster Square with a dumper truck full of manure and tip the entire lot out the front of the Members’ Entrance.
133. Indeed and on a day when there is a story in the papers about the Government considering slapping another tax on the energy use of the British people. All the 50 days to save the planet stuff sounds like a diversion (hiding the fact that Labour’s energy policy has been non-existent for 12 years) intended as part of Brown’s usual stealth tactics to screw more money out of the people just for him to waste………
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/oct/19/nuclear-tax-on-power-bills
@151:
Is Dave PM already? Woo!
Inspectors in every home is currently under-development. It’s called smart-metering.
You have the heating/air-conditioning too high and some programmer has decided that the ambient temperature/humidity does not require it, then your little electronic inspector will over-rule you. TV on is stand-by, a message might be sent to the environment-Tsar and a fine popped into the post to you. This stuff is being developed.
Why do you think that nEU-Labour need to further tax our communications systems? Perhaps to finance the internet super-highway required to transmit our behavioural data to some face-less (non-human) office, in order to berate and tax our everyday lives?
Of course it is all being done to save the environment. And - unless you are a criminal - no Human-Rights legislation will protect you….
144. Well its in the politicians interests to play along with the climate change scare because it gives them an excellent reason/excuse to put up various taxes under the guise of saving the planet. “Green taxes” will be invaluable to the next few governments as they battle to reduce the debt - Lets just hope for them the climate plays along and actually gets warmer - Its failed to do so for the last 12 years.
148 I agree - its the OTT language that makes it seem very silly.
The fact that there is a conference coming up will be lost on most peeps, the 50 days to save the world is the line that sticks out.
My problem with the whole thing is that Labour have had a chaotic approach to energy since they came to office and hence sensible informed people are discussing the prospect of the lights going out within the next decade.
Astonishing mismanagement given the huge electoral mandate they’ve had.
“When did we last have politicians who led, rather being led by the nose by various lobby groups and special interests?”
Never, probably. The political parties emerged as they represented particular interests……
147. Well, see thats the thing, there is little to no evidence that either global warming is happening, that is outside normal patterns, or that man is causing it. The argument is quite nuanced though, much of the material used by those claiming that global warming is happening has been thoroughly discredited, some of the more independent sources of information, ie. Satellite monitoring of temperatures in the atmosphere show evidence of both cooling and warming, depending on which data set you use, and over what time frame.
Here is an excellent article describing the statistical manipulation by both sides:
http://antigreen.blogspot.com/2009/10/cherry-pickers-guide-to-temperature.html#links
155, I saw Ed Milipede on Sky this morning. Thinks it’s been getting every year, or so he said. Funny how it, er, hasn’t. Still, once you ignore facts global warming makes perfect sense.
151
So you get hold of some guy to do a feasability study, and he tells you what you want the hear: wow!
The Tower of Babel (Hebrew: מגדל בבל Migdal Bavel Arabic: برج بابل Burj Babil), according to the Book of Genesis,[1] was an enormous tower built at the city of Babylon (Hebrew: Babel, Akkadian: Babilu), a cosmopolitan city typified by a confusion of languages,[2] also called the “beginning” of Nimrod’s kingdom. According to the biblical account, a united humanity of the generations following the Great Flood, speaking a single language and migrating from the east, participated in the building. The people decided their city should have a tower so immense that it would have “its top in the heavens.”[3]
However, the Tower of Babel was not built for the worship and praise of God, but was instead dedicated to the glory of man, to “make a name” for the builders: “Then they said, ‘Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.’” (Genesis 11:4). God, seeing what the people were doing, came down and confused their languages and scattered the people throughout the earth.
Hmmm Kent should worry, perhaps we all should.
147. Dyed have you thought that the ‘50 days to save the world’ mantra might not be highly irresponsible?
Is he really suggesting that we can fix the predicted climate change threats in 50 days? What happens on day 51? Do they declare that the world has been saved and we all have a party?
I’m sorry it is an immature hysterical attempt to grab headlines by a man who is not qualified to run a whelk stall.
151. Camerons attack was on Qunagos that set policies.
148
I am still waiting to hear any coherent justification from any politician as to why gardening expenses are justified at all.
The rules (non-retrospective) have always stated that expenses clamis should be solely and exclusively for the purposes of carrying out their jobs as MPs.
Gardening is not essential to being an MP and so no claim for gardening expenses should ever have been allowed. It is that simple.
It is not news that some people are bent - this is not shocking. But Chaytor, Morley et al have put their hands up at least.
What shocks me is that many MPs continue to try and defend the indefensible and pretend that they are not dishonest or have done anything wrong. They have been found out - they should pay up, and Widdecombe, the Sunderland North bloke and others, deserve our utter contempt. Which they are getting.
Torybear has an interesting post this morning
http://www.torybear.com/2009/10/labours-evil-friends.html
156 agree that energy policy needs to be sorted out sharpish, yes.
That goes for both main parties though imo.
Mike my post at 163 seems to be in moderation.
158. Morris Dancer: saw Ed Milipede on Sky this morning. Thinks it’s been getting every year, or so he said.
Did the interviewer bother to correct him?
158. To be fair there is some debate about whether 1998 or 2005 is the warmest year on record. 2005 came very close to 1998, but was neutral El Nino year, where-as 1998 had a mega El Nino event which was responsible for a lot of that years warming. So, the arguement goes, if you strip out El Nino, 2005 would actually be the warmest year on record.
In any case, I think everyone can agree that the Earth hasn’t warmed as much as the climate models suggest it should have done. The Met Office claim warming will quickly start to accelerate in the next 5 years, so we’ll soon see whats really going on.
159. Coldstone
I know you have to go back many decades to justify your attacks on the Conservatives Coldstone (are you older than Jack W?) but wow you’ve outdone yourself this time!
ROFLMAO…….
150
The poster is of its time. The public has become more sophisticated in its appreciation of visual language. Whilst the overall motif is still valid (probably more so) the specifics of the poster put too much distance between it and the viewer.
Iain Dale has picked up on my post about Torybears blog this morning
http://www.iaindale.blogspot.com/
160 jsfl
Mr Brown said: “If we do not reach a deal at this time, let us be in no doubt: once the damage from unchecked emissions growth is done, no retrospective global agreement, in some future period, can undo that choice. ‘
If that is what he believes then saying there is 50 days to reach a deal is the right approach to take I think.
The way the media present it of course sensationalises the actual tone of the thing.
161 - Camerons “Quango day” was largely confused, but its centre piece was an attack on OFCOM.
As the similarly confused Dannatt announcement suggests, in retrospect they were both part of an attempt to woo the Sun rather than anything coherent.
163 Dyed - I think you’ll find that the Conservative policy on this subject is very well developed. The problem is that Blair dithered for years, so it is actually now too late to build the necessary generation capacity. The only way around this will be to hope that the EU will grant a derogation on the date by which we are supposed to decommission the most highly-polluting old power stations; even that might not be enough.
163. Being an MP requires (for those outside of london) the maintenance of a second home. An MP is allowed to designate either their property in their constituency or the property in London as their second home.
It makes perfect sense that all the costs associated with the second property are met by that allowance. Gardening seems acceptable, the tricky one is, their london property might be a small flat with no garden, while their constituency home could have several acres.
What has happened is people taking the mickey, abusing the system so it works as a nice little earner (sharing the cleaner with a family member for instance, in a house you never visit because you live ‘above the shop’ in Government).
This again, wouldnt be so bad, if MPs hadnt so gloriously enriched themselves on the increase in the value of the homes they had acquired through the paying of interest on mortgages, and then avoided any capital gains tax.
If an MP was given a property to use in London, rent free, which was then passed onto another MP when they stood down/lost their seat, would you object to the gardening being done?
155. It’s not just the excuse for taxation that appeals. It’s also that the GW scare opens the field for increased controls and grand plans, and for narcissistic politicians to play what Derek & Clive might have termed ‘Celebrity Saviours’.
132,137 and didn’ Flash Gordons comaonion sat “Flash we ‘ve only got 24 hours to save the earth”
136 ICM is weighted by voting certainity,YOu GOV is not.
Mike any idea if anew Guardain ICM is oput this week or is it next?
i
172 fair enough, I will have a read up on the Conservative policy and happily retract if required.
164 - I think some words relating to the ECR group leader have been put on the banned list.
37. “I’d like to think that it would resonate, but I fear that it wouldn’t. My own impression is that many people rather like being told what to do by officials. It relieves them of the necessity of thinking for themselves.”
Yes. It’s hard to argue with that. Of course, it is also these sorts of people who keep on voting in Labour governments.
The flip side is, though, that were we able to build a more selfless and thinking society, where individuals took responsibility for their own lives and felt a duty towards their neighbours, it would do away with both the need for and the desire for this sort of State in an instant.
The sad truth is that whilst we gained much greater freedom in the 1960s (socially) and the 1980s (economically) we also lost our sense of duty and responsibility at the same time. We became obsessed with individual rights and entitlements - to the possible exclusion of everything else - devoid of any ability to take responsibility for our neighbours, communities or our country.
You can’t have one without the other. We have failed to deliver social responsibility from within, so it has become increasingly imposed from without.
The end is clear - as are the consequences.
174. Thats true as well.
My greatest concern is that the GE campaign will focus on how to get out of the mess we’re in and not on how/who caused it. It would be criminal if the opposition parties allowed Labour off the hook by letting them say ‘well we’re here now, but this is what we plan to do’
People (a generalisation) won’t think that Labour have already had 12 years to put in place decent policies and failed miserably. It needs the opposition to continuosly bang on about this to get it through the public’s consciousness.
178 Tim its about the European Socialist group and the nutters within it.
180. I’m sure the Conservatives won’t let Labour/Brown off the hook. The election will be both about how we get out of the mess and who got us into it in the first place.
The Stasi stuff should be tied in with the management by centrally imposed targets thing to create the broad (and completely accurate) impression that they’d all be full-on Stalinists given half the chance.
172
The energy industry was privatised during the ’80’s and handed over to the free market. If there is insufficient generating capacity, that is due to a failure of the market, not the government.
House Prices On The UP Yet Lending Restricted!
“Asking prices rose 0.2 percent on the year — the first annual rise since June 2008 — taking them to an average 230,184 pounds.”
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE59H23W20091019
“Borrowers face a mortgage affordability test from lenders amid plans by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) to step up the regulation of home loans.
Self-certification mortgages will be banned under the proposals with lenders required to verify borrowers’ incomes.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8313853.stm
With the end of the stamp duty holiday on housing in sight, how will Mr & Mrs Family with 2.5 children on £40k-£50k joint income be able to afford buy even an average house?
Prices are held up at present by a shortage of sellers, but with rising unemployment and low or zero growth forecast for 2010, surely the only logical way for house prices is down - a necessary correcting step that will put even more people in negative equity. Could they be saved by a sharp rise in inflation?
170. Dyed, I had concluded that basically it was Brown setting meaningless targets again (whatever countries sign up to in practice, none of it is achievable - they just won’t take on the oil companies and they will do nothing to seriously damage their political futures) but the way it has been spun (and I don’t for a minute believe that Labour spinmeisters didn’t have a hand in it) is utterly ridiculous.
tim, do you want to look up these people:
Giulietto Chiesa
Proinsias De Rossa
Andrzej Zbigniew Lepper
What do they all have in common?
Coldy, your a climate change denier aren’t you?
What do you think to Gord saving the world in 50 days? 
@177:
I hope you’re proud of yourself.
Good Christ, I would be.
184 Let’s Nationalise everything and let the state control every aspecy of our lives. A Utopean dream, wonder why no one else has tried it successfully?
@186:
Ooh, I know this one.
They’re all types of cheese.
185 we’ll have to agree to disagree there then (on the purpose behind it)
184 No, it’s not, coldstone. The industry can only work within the planning and policy framework set by the government. Are you suggesting the private sector could build nuclear power stations without government permission?
181 - I suspect the original link contained the name of the ECR leader somewhere, its getting stuck in the spam trap, ironically as the Lib Dems have decided to go big on the story involving the HoC Wikipedia cover up.
‘ We have failed to deliver social responsibility from within, so it has become increasingly imposed from without.’
Alternatively, you could argue that the expansion of state control from the early 20th century onwards crowded out private efforts which had been very effective in building social responsibility. The fate of the friendly societies being an obvious example.
There are some interesting chicken and egg questions in this area.
@193:
I thought it had already been established that it was probably David Milliband’s PPS that had been making the Wikipedia changes?
195 - Has it?
I didn’t think Hague had replied to Clegg and Bryants questions yet.
The Labour party anonymously changing a Wikipedia entry, then leaking to the Observer it had been changed-typical tactics…..
Oh dear - UKIP have to give back £363k
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8314059.stm
186 - Prionsias has a stammer. Do they all have stammers?
145. Constance , You are a cracker, I of course read it this morning when I was catching up, you need to watch your conspiracy thoughts it may get serious.
OGH Please can you release 185 from moderation.
198 And frankly who cares? If the LDs are trying to extract mileage out of this - well if that’s the best they can come up with …
A question to far ?
“Homebuyers face questions on alcohol and smoking under new mortgage rules”
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article6880612.ece
Not a problem for me as monthly spending is zero but I imagine there will be those who can’t remember.
149. Runnymede , be careful with the thinking , you could do yourself some damage.
199. That heavens he doesn’t have a shaking hand as well.
Is there a moderator present right now or did tim’s latest yellow card (second offence, no less) last less than a day?
@196:
Yes, it’s the “Camel under the bed”. Since many changes were made around the time of Milliband’s speech, they’re most likely to have been made by a Millibandian parliamentary aide.
Mike, please bring back edit.
178 One thing that has always struck me, from reading history, is that most slaves don’t actually object to being slaves. They object to ill-treatment, but it’s far more common for slaves to be devoted to their masters, than to rebel against them.
207. It’s very amusing to see Labour and the Lib Dems reduced to their proper level, i.e. juvenile student union political antics.
207 - You’re confused Martin.
The changes were made in June just after after the ECR was set up.
192
If the industry is in private hands, then its up to private industry to sort out its own problems. Free is an absolute, you can’t be a bit free, you are either free or you are not free.
You can’t regulate a free market, if you do it ‘aint free.
House Prices On The UP Yet Lending Restricted!
“Asking prices rose 0.2 percent on the year — the first annual rise since June 2008 — taking them to an average 230,184 pounds.”
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE59H23W20091019
“Borrowers face an affordability test from lenders amid plans by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) to step up the regulation of ho*e loans.
Self-certification borrowing will be banned under the proposals with lenders required to verify borrowers’ incomes.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8313853.stm
With the end of the stamp duty holiday on housing in sight, how will Mr & Mrs Family with 2.5 children on £40k-£50k joint income be able to afford buy even an average house?
Prices are held up at present by a shortage of sellers, but with rising unemployment and low or zero growth forecast for 2010, surely the only logical way for house prices is down - a necessary correcting step that will put even more people in negative equity. Could they be saved by a sharp rise in inflation?
193 I can’t imagine someone fiddling about with wikipedia generating a “big” news story.
I once altered Ted Heath’s entry to say that he’d been agent of the Chinese government throughout his entire political career, and I’m pleased to say it stayed up there for a week.
206: what has tim done now? unfortunatly I don’t post on here 15 hours per day, so I must have missed it.
203. LTL. I would imagine most people would say it was close to zero , whether accurate or not. We pay a fortune for these clowns at the FSA to come up with this kind of rubbish.
211 For all that we know, you made the changes.
@211:
We’re not talking about the recent slate of edits from the Palace? I thought we were.
Could you point out the Wikepedia edits that are being disputed?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=European_Conservatives_and_Reformists&action=history
212: so labour were wrong in supporting the banks?
“If the industry is in private hands, then its up to private industry to sort out its own problems.”
Erm, the point is that HMG did not provide a consistent policy so the energy providers didn’t build them. I don’t think EON etc are the ones with the ‘problem’ - it’s the UK that will have to deal with the consequences.
214. Clearly the great minds behind the Labour and Lib Dem combined spin machine disagree with you.
a few thoughts prior to griffin going onto QT, would appreciate some sensible feedback.
i was trying to work out why on earth labour had alnost 30% of the vote these days. with apparent strong support in poor urban areas in particular.
then i saw that over 2 million immigrants had arrived since 2001, mainly into urban areas, and those are just the official ones!
assuming 70% of them vote, and of that ONLY 70% of them vote for labour, then that is a million votes in the bag. it essentially means that their votes are worth around 3 to 4% to labour in polls. if the figure is 90% of new immigrants vote labour as the least likely to send them “home” as i suspect then it is worth closer to 5%.
without them labour would be 3 to 4% lower.
the solution for labour remains to let everyone in they can and hope they still get a few votes from the indigenous population tempted by the BNP.
perhaps 2.3 million people coming without sufficient means or skill testing is a good thing to london, manchester and the new somali capital of bristol, i personally think it has been a factor in why the BNP are stronger now than ever.
in the states it should be noted mccain won the white vote but the new immigrants from mexico swung the vote obamas way as their numbers increased. so immmigration can decide an election and change the outcome. which may be why no party wnats to antagonise or marginalise the “new voters” whilst trying to keep “their old voters” on side.
this aspect may explain why there is a latent support for ukip who it is assumed will at least do something about immigration by halting free passage from east european satellite countries even if it is frankly not that much. no wonder turkey is still struggling to get into the EU, that will move millions of people with “different” religious views into western europe in one foul sweep. i would expect them to go to mainly germany, netherlands and the uk.
a position on turkey joining the eu is needed from all parties. as that will be worth another 1 or 2% to labour if they come in before the following GE election!
215. When the Coronation of Mr L D A Y S Brown occured. The Wiki entry had been altered to state that he was the MP for Berlin East. This misunderstanding has been corrected and the perpetrator consigned to the wilderness reserved for the unbelievers.
218 - Its on the 25th June on the page relating to the ECR group leader and his past, the change was made from the HoC.
216 - MalcolmG - I wonder if they’ll ask about gambling habits? Perhaps they’ll force political betting website owners to reveal potential bad-risks.
219
If you’re on the right, yes you would argue that. On the left, you’d say, well bloody capitalism, has to be rescued by socialism once again.
I haven’t seen too many Tory politicians oppose what the government did, (didn’t have much choice) but some right wing commentators certainly have.
209. Also, very worrying. One wonders what forms these attitudes?
I have always been innately hostile to any sort of dictation about how I should live my life. It really bothers me that others can be comfortable with that.
Human beings are such contradictory creatures.
214. Lol.
Barry Sheerman repeating his “bully” accusation against Ed Balls on Sky News now!
212 Quite so, coldstone. Which is exactly why my original point was correct; the failure was the government’s. The industry was not free to build the necessary capacity without first being given a government policy framework to work within, which it didn’t get because of Labour’s years of dithering on the subject.
The national debt has reached £2.2 trillion (£86k per household):
http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2009/10/latest-on-real-national-debt.html
173 gaz
Sorry, it does not make “perfect sense” to me that gardening is necessary to be an MP. WTF?
2nd homes should always be the London one. This should be a modest, comfortable, centrally located house or flat, with rent, modest furnishings, internet, bills and TV paid for. No problem with that, or some other reasonable expesnes that i have no doubt forgotten.
But not all these extra bells and p1ss-take whistles!
I’m confused.
There were three edits by unregistered users to the ECR page on the 25th June:
# (cur) (prev) 18:33, 25 June 2009 193.190.253.150 (talk) (22,837 bytes) (undo)
# (cur) (prev) 18:32, 25 June 2009 193.190.253.150 (talk) (22,836 bytes) (undo)
# (cur) (prev) 18:28, 25 June 2009 193.190.253.150 (talk) (22,835 bytes) (undo)
And none of them seem to be what you’re claiming.
Doing a reverse DNS lookup on that IP gives: 193.190.253.150 resolves to
“kotnet-150.kulnet.kuleuven.be”
Top Level Domain: “kuleuven.be”
As far as I can tell, there were no revisions by unregistered users on the 25th June from HOC.
Explanation, tim?
214
They had my entry about ‘im and the Pandas off quick enough.
Alistair @ 227 - story picked up by Times
““Most of us know that Ed Balls is a bit of a bully and he likes his own way and we have seen a track record of problems over Ken Boston at the QCA and Bruce Liddington the schools commissioner, who was very independent - he has gone and the school commissioner has been abolished.
“Time after time, we see the secretary of state wanting to have people who will do his bidding. He is more of an executive man, rather than a parliamentary man and I think it is a bad day for parliamentary democracy when - if we are having these pre-appointment hearings - the very first one to say it didn’t agree with the appointment gets overridden.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6880607.ece
Now who does that sound like ?
Today’s game is to go to Barry Shearman’s page and see how long it takes you to find a reference to the Labour Party.
237 - You’re looking at the wrong page.
Go to the page that has the name of the ECR leader.
(it’s setting off the spam trap to link direct)
or follow here, third story down.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/author/stephen-tall/
239. Balls was grown in a test tube from a culture of cells from Brown’s backside.
240
Barry is making hay today, is he standing down?
236. Jon C: 2nd homes should always be the London one.
Why?
It’s perfectly possible for a family’s main home to be in London, with the MP also maintaining a constituency home for when he needs to be there. Exhibit A: D Cameron (C, Witney).
228
Yeah! I remember the row when John Wakeham’s consituency was chosen as a site to bury nuclear waste. Wakeham went from pro to anti nuclear overnight.
What’s the point of building power stations of any sort when Dave’s pal Zac will be leading sabotage attacks on them by his eco-terrorists.
Has he said anything about the latest up in Notts? He was first in the field to support illegal attacks at Kingsnorth.
@241:
For the love of Xenu. Just give me a link to the disputed edit(s) in question.
Either they exist or they don’t. If they exist PLEASE LINK THEM.
212. Oh Coldstone. You really are not on form today.
Free is an absolute, you can’t be a bit free, you are either free or you are not free.
Your pretense that any contemporary market is ‘free’ is a nonsense.
Whilst there may be those who aspire to the ‘free market’ (whom I suspect you are trying to wind up) there is currently no such thing as a free market these days, given all the national and supra-national regulation, taxation and other controls imposed on the markets and it’s been that way for centuries.
Governments impose controls on everything and the problem of this Government is that it has imposed too many and too few actually target the right things.
Of course if you are saying that we should throw out all the regulation, taxation and so forth and try a ‘free market’ (not that I am that comfortable with it) then certainly it’s worth a debate…
Further to my 211, it appears the answer is that the latter option is the case.
Oh dear.
227. Actually, no Democrat Presidential candidate has won the ‘national white vote’ since Johnson in 1964.
227
Did you expect something different?
It’s the politician’s dream. They didn’t like the verdict of the electorate in ‘92 so they set out to get another one.
er 247 is for 217 (have the numbers changed).
246 - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michał_Kamiński&diff=298531981&oldid=267881365
247
The last Conservative government, destroyed the finest energy system in the world. This government did nothing to remedy the situation, we will pay a heavy price for what they both did.
Strange the advocates of, ‘free markets’ always come up with lots of reasons why they can’t be really free, when they fail.
Ah, I think I’ve got it.
Is this the revision in question we’re talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Micha%C5%82_Kami%C5%84ski&action=historysubmit&diff=302310957&oldid=298531981
213 financier
“can that be saved by a rise in inflation”
I would take issue with “saved”
Huge numbers of people are really hoping for houses to become affordable, i.e. prices to fall a long way please. I include virtually anyone under 35, all first time buyers, anyone looking to trade up, and anyone who is generally against millstones of debt which last half a lifetime, or think that a house is somewhere to live, not an “investment opporutnity”. This country’s obession with house prices is perverse, almost a sickness, and one of the least appealing things about living here.
(You can usually categorise people on this issue quite accurately by whether they talk about “houses” - normal people, or “property” - rampers and speculators)
The irony of governments of all colours going on about “affordable housing” whilst doing everything in their power to stop price falls, which would, er, achieve their objectives, is amazing. How much more money would be sloshing around the economy if so many didn’t spend up to half their incomes on mortgage payments?
And the tories want chief property ramper Kirsty Allslop to be a peer. give me strength…
253 Which energy system was that?
256
If you need to ask, then you’ll never know.
241 If correct, that narrows it down to about 4,000 people.
252.
That looks like a standard reversion of a BLP violation to me.
257 Why not just answer my question?
225. There is nothing unusual about either a banking crisis, or the need for government to act as the lender of last resort. In almost all countries currency is issued by a state bank which sets its terms of lending with a national interest rate. Macroeconomic policy and regulation of lending criteria has always been in the hands of government. And this has happened throughout our economic history.
Where you get it wrong, Coldstone, is to suggest that financial crises are somehow only a feature of Capitalist societies.
This is hogwash.
Financial crises have historically been *much* more severe under Socialist systems of government because the state is a very poor arbiter of risk and incapable of seperating commerce from politics.
Socialist societies have been also been very, very poor at delivering both the stability and liquidity necessary to deliver the economic growth upon which all successful societies rest.
“Fifty days to save the planet”, hmm.
I think Mr Brown ought to view the South Park episode entitled “Two Days Before the Day After Tomorrow”.
@252:
I’d suggest that, withing the scope of WP:BOLP, that revision was justified, whoever at the HOC made it.
You’ll note that the phrase “far right” doesn’t appear in the current version of the article.
257. coldstone.
So you’re just talking bollocks like usual then.
253 Most advocates of the free market would accept that, for example, the State should prevent people from starving to death by offering them some form of assistance, if necessary. Does that make them hypocritical?
260 - When those two ghastly monopolists, British Gas (Colesore goes on bended knee at the hallowed name of Sir Denis Rooke, whose meter he read in October 1980) and the CEGB ruled the world.
244
Where they actually live is not relevant, it’s how much we reimburse them. They shodl be getting “work away from home” levels of expenses.
Why should the taxpayer fund the expenses of an MP’s family as well? A family-sized home would be too big. Maybe they should all just get a flat rate, enough to cover the rental of a furnished 1-bed flat in Westminster or nearby, then they could live where they want, including in a family-sized house.
If my MP lived in London and turned up occasionally in the constituency, I would not be too happy!
263 - If anyone wants to dispute the description “far right”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Revival_of_Poland
Then I think they’ll struggle.
Of course, if its a non story Clegg will get his answer pretty quickly won’t he.
253.
Sorry, was this the ‘fine energy system’ of frequent power blackouts and routinely held to ransom by national strikes? Or was it the one of high unit and labour costs with poor customer repair service and delivery?
I forget..
26
The CEGB and BG were without doubt excellent providers of energy, and did it successfully for years, despite the constant sniping and criticism which they received.
There is no way that private companies could have done what they did. They wouldn’t have been able to afford the enormous capital costs involved. Building generating capacity and converting the country from towns gas to natural, would not have been something they would have tackled.
When all the hard work had been done, the private companies were more than happy to take over, mainly to exploit the consumer, (35% increase in energy costs in one jump) they still are not prepared to invest, without taxpayers money.
So what was the point?
Dave, be bold, Dave be quick.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100014025/come-on-dave-show-us-your-new-europe-policy/
269
Frequent? during the miners strike yes, but the amount of interruption to supply due to CEGB/BG was minimal, could you give me amount of days lost?
Compare to the US where brown/black outs are frequent. The whole of Manhatten on one transformer, and we all know what happened there.
270. coldstone: So what was the point?
To piss you off and make you even more bitter an old man than you already were.
271, Brogan’s wrong. The policy is that once the Treaty is ratified the new policy will be unveiled. It isn’t ratified yet.
@268:
All we know is that in June, somebody with Palace of Westminster internet access, made a small Wikipedia edit that was quickly reverted, but the substance of which remains present in the article to this day?
Hardly the stuff off which scandals are made.
With respect to the NOR, the article’s current state is a testament to the power of WP:NPV…
“He first entered politics as a teenager, joining the National Revival of Poland (Polish: Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski) when he was 15. The present day NOP is considered to be anti-Semitic, though Kamiński has defended his membership of the organisation, arguing that it was a symbol of his opposition to Communism and that the party was not anti-Semitic when he was a member.[1]“
273 - “and make you even more bitter an old man than you already were”
An impossible task.
On Topic
I would like to assemble a list of specific targets of unneccessary bureaucracy for the new government to reform/simplify or preferably totally dismantle after election next May.
In view of my recent experiences with property and sorting out elderly relatives affairs I propose the following:
HIPS
The Office of The Public Guardian
English Nature
Would other pbers like to add to this list?
271. Tedious tim.
As far as I know the Constitution remains unratified, hence the extant policy remains valid.
269
Or was it the one of high unit and labour costs with poor customer repair service and delivery?
Really better now is it. More fraud in energy selling than you can shake a stick at. Gangs of so called salesmen terrorising old ladies to change their energy supplier. On more than one occasion just going into the local library, and using the electoral roll, to change customers without them even knowing about it.
253. On point one I agree and I have never been comfortable with the sell off of core national infrastructure (IIRC I agreed with you on this point no so long ago).
Although an industry that was held to ransom by the unions and it’s employees (I remember the blackout and the strikes) was hardly the finest in the world.
As for advocating the ‘free market’ I certainly don’t because as the world is, it is not feasible. So your inference that I do is as much a misrepresentation as your original post on the matter……..
277 What’s the Office of the Public Guardian ???
@278:
I think we’ll know before the end of the month whether Vaclav Klaus’s cullions are sufficiently reinforced.
Not long for anyone to wait.
276.
273
They didn’t have to do that, I’d do bitter any way.
tim + Monday morning + Waffen SS = depression
http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/
On topic - none at all, labour abandoned socialism in the eighties.
What they could be attacked over is authoritarianism. That’s a message that would resonate.
285 This will cheer you up
http://www.torybear.com/2009/10/labours-evil-friends.html
270. Coldstone: we all know that this - and the resultant chip on your shoulder - is about you losing your job in the industry in the 1980s.
You were clearly affected by that and you took it personally.
I don’t begrudge you for that, losing your job is always horrible, but you do lack the objectivity necessary to be taken seriously on this subject.
Unfortunately, outside the hard-left, there is hardly a serious commentator on the energy industry who’d agree with you.
286 I live and learn - thanks for the link.
On wikipedia, it seems we have some way to go before reaching the heady heights of what a certain David Boothroyd was up to…
Private sector organisations are perfectly willing to stump up huge amounts of capital for investment programmes. Look at mobile ‘phone networks, for example. Likewise, oil and mining companies.
Naturally, they expect a reasonable return on the capital they’ve invested.
280
Although an industry that was held to ransom by the unions and it’s employees (I remember the blackout and the strikes) was hardly the finest in the world.
How many strikes from 1950 to 1986 were there by CEGB/BG workers
leading to a loss of energy supplies.
291 Ah yes - I’d forgotten about his sock-puppetry. A silly billy.
281. Plato - http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/
It used to be very simple to employ a solicitor and arrange an enduring Power of Attorney for looking after the affairs of an elderly relative. Now it very much isn’t!
290 Somehow, I doubt that WikiGate will rank as one of the great political scandals of our times.
295 What a nightmare of red tape - sure it was well intentioned but…
291
So if the government gave them the sites, they’d build capacity without any taxpayers money would they?
Completely OT, but for some reason I find this Mandysnail both hilarious and adorable:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00630/Cartoon_630052a.jpg
277 Goupillon - It would be rather a long list. But isn’t Douglas Carswell already compiling one?
286 Why does that website subliminally suggest old black people lack capacity?
273 - But don’t forget, old Colesore is mucho macho man humping himself around Dorset, his back laden with Jim Davidson’s collected joke albums, while muttering imprecations - “Dinky’s a fu*king degenerate” - to bemused hikers enjoying what they thought might be a peaceful afternoon’s stroll.
301 That was my first reaction too - very odd use of stock photography.
277 The OPG has been around a long time (in various guises). But, the new Lasting Power of Attorney regime is, as you say, vastly more complex and expensive than the old system of Enduring Powers of Attorney.
I would add the Local Government Standards Board, Regional Assemblies (including the London Assembly), English Partnerships, and the Equality and Human Rights Commission to your list.
“The Office of the Public Guardian supports and promotes decision making for those who lack capacity or would like to plan for their future.”
Maybe Gordon should give them a call?
301
So you’re my stalker, pleased to meet you.
277. It would be easier to ask what not to get rid of and then say get rid of the rest.
Although I suspect the most popular would be HMRC and there local equivalents……
@303:
If we’re gonna scratch the London Assembly, who’d scrutinise the Mayor? The boroughs?
299. Richard Nabavi - I very much look forward to seeing his list but will the new government actually do something about it?
305 - In your dreams.
304 And the RDA’s - they’ve done a few good things [the broadband roll-out in Cornwall by ACT] but on the whole they are organisations that exist to fill meeting rooms and drink tea.
@308:
I suspect it’s one of those things that’s far easier said than done.
NGOs have their tendrils deep in the fabric of the modern state, and severing the vast network of subsurface interconnecting roots without causing the government to collapse will take time and a great deal of care and hard work.
307. Why not? Have a standing committee composed of a few councillors from each borough.
Talking of saving the world, where is the H1N1 pandemic flu vaccine promised in October [was promised in September]?
This was Liam Donaldson’s advice of the 15th:
The earliest possible delivery date for the first supplies of vaccine to general practices is Monday 26 October 2009. It will take around 3-4 weeks to complete the distribution of first supplies to all practices. Initially practices will receive one box of Pandemrix vaccine containing 500 doses.
294. “It used to be very simple to employ a solicitor and arrange an enduring Power of Attorney for looking after the affairs of an elderly relative. Now it very much isn’t!”
I’m afraid I have to disagree.
The OPG provides the forms, guidance and advice.
I’ve just gone through the process for my mother and all it took was a few enquiries with friends to stand as witnesses etc and it was over in a few weeks. All done by post.
At no charge, since the subject not the attorney pays the fees.
RDA’s are usless:
http://www.thisisdorset.co.uk/fosseway/news/bad-news-Morlands/article-1066595-detail/article.html
20 years, £19m and it’s still a demolition site with nothing but traffic lights which go nowhere.
293. Plato.
FWIW, he’s still contributing to the community as “Sam Blacketer”…
The TPA’s report identified 1,162 bodies that fit their definition of a quango:
http://tpa.typepad.com/bettergovernment/files/080515_structure_of_government_1_unseen_government_immediate_release.pdf
308 Goupillon - It’s not an official Conservative Party list, but a wiki where people can make suggestions:
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Great_Repeal_Bill
288
I gave up my job,(was approached twice to change my mind) and I don’t agree. I wonder if a poll had been taken last year after the 35% increase, on public/private ownership what would the result have been.
There are still plenty in the industry, who believe that government will one day, have to return, certainly the transmission system back into public ownership.
If war is to important for General’s, energy transmission is to important for the free market.
Ironically it’ll probably be a Tory government that’ll do it, shades of Rolls Royce 1971.
Rare image of Coldstone, snapped as he kits himself out for a Dorset ramble:
http://tinyurl.com/coldstone-goes-walkies
320
I’ve got more hair, and I’m errrr better blessed.
319. I wonder if a poll had been taken last year after the 35% increase, on public/private ownership what would the result have been.
Given the underlying reasons for those price rises (the rising cost of fuel) I doubt if a publicly owned industry would have been any more popular. At least that was one issue Brown managed to sidestep just about without making a fool of himself!
@319:
It’s my feeling that the successful and failed privatisations of the last thirty years give us plenty of evidence of what needs to happen for a privatisation to suceed.
Perhaps the most important requirement is the ability to create a competitive market.
I’ve never seen how it’s possible to create a competitive market in transmission. In the same way as there can be only one rail network, there can be only one national grid.
I think the national electricity and gas and water grids should be under the control of non-profit trusts, backed by a treasury guarantee that allows them to issue AAA bonds.
297. “So if the government gave them the sites, they’d build capacity without any taxpayers money would they?”
God, I’ve read your wittering contributions on this theme for longer than I care to remember.
As a former Gas Board employee, you know absolutely nothing about building power stations, electricity supply or the running of the CEGB (in all its former ‘glory’).
I do. I worked to the Construction Division of the CEGB for some years.
Now lets get something straight. The CEGB ran massive, unnecessary overcapacity in generating plant, largely as a consequence of government interference in the shape of ordering new power stations for political reasons, viz Ince B. It was over-staffed, rather sloppily managed and had monopoly strength.
None of the private generators need or want the government to ‘give them the sites’.
What they need is the overall supply strategy to be set, the planning framework to be clear and consistent and for chosen sites to be licensed.
That’s all. None of them can build any plants without these conditions are under their control.
319. “Ironically it’ll probably be a Tory government that’ll do it, shades of Rolls Royce 1971.”
If it is so important why hasn’t Gordon Brown, saviour of the universe, sorted it out?
Further to 318 - There’s a more controlled version here:
http://ourlaw.wikispaces.com/
Clearly not many of these will actually happen.
@321:
COLDSTONE SMASH!!! RAWR!!!
OT Ms Moir’s article has generated 21000 complaints to the PCC.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/oct/19/jan-moir-complain-stephen-gately
@328:
Excellent!
Given the Mail’s sudden spurt of “we love the gays” stories, I suspect they’re preparing to throw Ms Moir to the wolves.
325
I’m as scathing of the present governments lack of action on energy as the Tories.
324
The gas boards haven’t existed for years.
I visited Peterborough power station back in ‘93? during its construction phase. The site was run by ex-CEGB engineers, they were scathing about the system and compared it very unfavourably with the CEGB. I found that when ever I visited gas powered power stations.
327
Have you ever noticed, I don’t make personal attacks on posters,
or only in defence.
p.s.
Apart from seant, but then he’s Cornish so it don’t count.
255: Jon C.
I agree with your scenario.
The problem is that the UK has built an economic structure on over-inflated house and property prices that in reality have to retreat to an affordable level (e.g 3.5-4 times joint or single salary) and I do not have a ready answer without hurting a lot of people.
At the same time, we have an expensive workforce (mostly without the skills needed for the 21st century) and an over-regulated business environment which has meant that the UK is not competitive on an enlarged European basis, let alone a world basis. Thus we have seen an eflux of business to Eastern Europe as well as the Far East where employment costs and regulation are less and skills are outgrowing those of the UK.
This is a scenario for a potential UK bankruptcy.
To try to return to a norm, some European countries have imposed savage cuts on Government and Public Sector salaries. The private sector in those countries having either made a lot of redundancies or imposed similar pay cuts togther with short time working. Some of these cuts have been a condition of IMF support.
The problem is thatI do not see any political party, (this side of the election) prepared to advocate the bitter medicine required to cure the desperately ill patient. If we have to wait another 6-9 months of indecision, then that illness could become terminal.
324 I agree with you - when the default position requires one system to work [ie like national grid etc], it shouldn’t be in commercial hands - it’s too important to risk underinvestment/market conditions.
I am really uncomfortable about the future for Royal Mail and the PO - these are essential services. If they’d privatised the RM at the same time as BT, it could have sorted itself out in time to cope.
If BT was still a public org and had lost all its most valuable business whilst being forced to provide universal services, it’d be equally overmanned/broke.
324. And if all of the private generators think they can get a better return on their investment by building power stations in India, China, the USA or wherever, then they will not build new capacity in the UK, and the lights will go out. That is where there needs to be some form of state interference (or management) to ensure that sufficient new capacity, using a range of energy sources is built. This is one area where we cannot rely on the market.
@331:
According to Urban Dictionary, “RAWR!” means ‘I love you’ in dinosaur.
I DID NOT KNOW THAT.
Oh! Waugh in the ES, picks up Boris’s sudden U turn, (sort of) on bankers.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/10/boris-and-the-apsergers-bankers.html
I think Boris is saying, ‘I wanna like you, please don’t make it hard for me’
330.
I’m as scathing of the present governments lack of action on energy as the Tories.
Really can you point to previous threads where you have highlighted this Governments failings rather than chunter on with your anti-thatcherite rhetoric and regurgitate Government propaganda?
Its a frock shocker, gor blimey guv that dress story will be in every dentist waiting room now.
http://www.hellomagazine.com/celebrities-news-in-pics/19-10-2009/52452/general/
When is Stuart Rose going to publicly support Cameron for PM?
339 I never had you down as a Hello reader - the scales have fallen from my eyes.
First sign of madness, Plato……
From Waugh:
5 Labour MPs threaten by-elections
Five Labour backbenchers are so furious at their Legg demands that they are threatening to trigger by-elections, a senior Commons source tells me.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/10/5-labour-mps-threaten-byelections.html
Plato- Talking to oneself is the first sign of old age.
341: Oh please do it…we like byelections (especially labour ones)
343 ?
343 - Can Labour afford to hold 5 by-elections?
I think they’d struggle to pat for one…!
344.Plato - Look at the numbers on your last post. Your post was no 339 and you said you were responding to 339…..
341. Do we have any idea who the ‘lemming five’ might be?
339 - I like a bit of flim flam over the sham Cams from time to time.
Why would 5 MPs that are likely to lose their seats in any case want to go early and lose their pay/loss of office payments?
Since there is no legal way that HMG can get the money back [unless they dock MPs pay], I can’t see this happening any more than Gordon stepping down and admitting incompetence.
Benn being asked about how the UK’s climate has changed? Benn. “You see the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere”.
Benn must have very good eyesight.
341 / 343 - Has anyone actually been asked to pay back more than £30k or so? If not surely it’s an empty threat.
349 - “unless they dock MPs pay”
That would be illegal.
346 jsfl- It is possible that Plato at 344 was having an internet joke.
Personally Me, I doubt that even the estimable Plato has the streetsmarts.
347. Few clues by Waugh other than they had already intended to stand down anyway. I can’t believe they’ll be the last either, especially if the expenses ‘payback’ escalates to the ‘flippers’. Cold financial calculations will come into play.
I wonder how many Nokia’s Brown’s destroyed today?
Benn in a car crash on Daily Politics.
341 ghanimah
The story doesn’t make sense to me unless they have been asked to pay back truly astronomical amounts - more than half a year’s salary and the resettlement bonus combined.
If it’s just a bargaining chip then it’s not a particularly clever one; Gordon Brown should call their bluff. Ian Gibson was a special case.
353. Thank you for your often illusive insight URW…….
“When is Stuart Rose going to publicly support Cameron for PM?”
Who cares?
@358:
It’ll happen when Her Majesty starts offering a 28-day no questions asked returns policy on Prime Ministers.
356. I agree, but it’s hard to say without knowing who they are. According to Waugh at least 50 “are really hacked off” and we only need 32 to be in ‘no confidence territory’
355 Dr Spyn - does that mean we can no longer save the planet in 50 days?
How long before Gordon comes out with “the Tories will destroy the planet”? I’m reckoning by Wednesday, end of PMQ’s…
How will this inhibit UKIP at the General Election:
Ukip faces funds black hole after £360,000 court ruling
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6880657.ece
361 - Does Gordon’s scorched earth policies, does that get classed as destroying the planet?
359. Brown is in the ‘bargain bin’ already, I would say.
Its all a bit of fun, the £65 dress turns out to have taken more man hours for that austerity look than Daves chauffeur took ferrying his suitcase around.
Its the Sham Cams meet The Undertones
“His mother bought him a synthesizer
.Got the Human League in to advise her”
365 Keeping his books company
365: You’re making even less sense than normal tim.
@365:
I fear that some of Wage Slave’s consciousness is starting to seep into your mind, tim.
It can be prevented by gaffer taping some brillo pads to your forhead. DO IT NOW.
least surprising news of the day… plus quote of the day on Balls ignoring the committee’s rejection of his candidate…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/19/eb-balls-bully-claim
But today Brown’s spokesman said the fact that Balls had ignored the committee’s advice did not invalidate the new system.
“The system is working. The system is an advisory one and the advice has been given,” the spokesman said.
Very vulnerable very potent and so percipient that the Tories could do worse than literally run them again.
@45. “In 1929, socialism was trendy and for many it was the “great white hope” of politics. Nowadays we know the truth - socialism is communism dressed up for the gullible and it destroys lives and economies.”
1929?! The year of the stock market crash leading to the worst economic depression of the 20th century??!!
A crash caused no less by exactly the same free market recklessness as the current credit crunch??!!
Dear oh dear! When will Tories wake up?
@369:
Loathe as I am to defend old fishface, seeking advice does not bind you to follow that advice. That’s not what “advice” means.
372 - Defending old Fishface is a Capital Crime on here.
Recant!
371. BenM: When will Tories wake up?
Socialism was show to be dead as an election-winning ideology no later than 1992. I think that’s the real reason that the hard left still hate Thatcher so much - she killed them off.
373. TSE: Defending old Fishface is a Capital Crime on here.
I thought it was DEFENDING OLD FISHFACE that was a capital crime…
(IGMC.)
356. It’s not Frank Field though according to the Mail, but they are veteran MPs
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221426/By-election-worry-Gordon-Brown-Labour-MPs-threaten-quit-expenses-row.html
375 - It’s a crime anywhere.
Its probably been said, but the poster did them little good in 1929
However a comparison with Butler’s “Bonfire of the controls” in 1952 is apposite.
The Tory Herd will be flocking (or herding?) to this new online shop:
http://shop.conservatives.com/pages/default.aspx?pageID=3559&
OT You know you need to get out more when…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221428/Pictured-Worlds-biggest-matchstick-model-took-15-years-million-matches-build.html?ITO=1490
379 - I’m ordering some stuff for the twins as we speak!
371. ‘Dear Oh Dear’ another one of the ‘let’s blame the markets’ brigade ‘??!!’
Hallllooooo - the ‘free market’ is a (false?) aspiration not a reality. It hasn’t been real for centuries…….
But I suppose blaming what went wrong on something that doesn’t exist is better than blaming it on the political leaders (e.g. Brown) that allowed the situation to occur ??!!
@371
From Murray Rothbard, America’s Great Depression:
“Economic theory demonstrates that only governmental inflation can generate a boom-and-bust cycle, and that the depression will be prolonged and aggravated by inflationist and other interventionary measures. In contrast to the myth of laissez-faire, we have shown in this book how government intervention generated the unsound boom of the 1920s, and how Hoover’s new departure aggravated the Great Depression by massive measures of interference. The guilt for the Great Depression must, at long last, be lifted from the shoulders of the free-market economy, and placed where it properly belongs: at the doors of politicians, bureaucrats, and the mass of “enlightened” economists. And in any other depression, past or future, the story will be the same.”
380 Some of these are good
http://shop.conservatives.com/prores10628/posters.aspx
I can’t help feeling that they were designed by the MacMillan Nurse chappy though.
@379:
That “future prime minister” baby t-shirt is adorable.
I like the ”Labour: telling people what to do since 1997” slogan.
And it’s on topic.
Since the apparently failed Tory Conference, Labour are making huge strides on all the betting fronts.
This is a matter of FACT !
Personally me, I thought that the Tory Conference was by far the best of the four (including TUC).
Sadly I am never right about anything. Hold on to your hats, Tory Boys and Girls……it’s going to be a bumpy ride.
341. Five by elections in Labour held seats = PB excitment!
1929 UK general election was held on 30 May 1929.
Labour form a government, Wall Street Crash October 24, 1929.
@383. Yeah, we know that there are lots of people out there ready to delude themselves no matter what the cost to their reputation (although I have to say that that passage passes as one of the most ludicrous I have ever read!).
Most will vote Tory next May.
I think the tea mug is the best.
379 The posters aren’t very good…….
@389:
A coincidence, I’m sure.
341 That’ll be fun.
389 - So both the Great Depression and The Credit Crunch happened on Labour’s watch?
Why am I not suprised
This is very amusing
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/mediamonkeyblog/2009/oct/19/twitter-jan-moir-media-monkey
I’m Jan Moir, no I’m Jan Moir!
390. BenM: I have to say that that passage passes as one of the most ludicrous I have ever read
Because you disagree with it, right?
332: financier
Agree with most of what you say. There’s no good way out of it all that I can see
I despair when even people like Greenspan declare that it’s not possible to identify bubbles which are as plain as a pikestaff.
First time buyers in London need to earn £93K to buy a house we learnt last week. Yet prices are rising. I can only imagine it will end in tears, and the longer that end is postponed, the more tears there will be.
389. ….1931 GE - Labour obliterated
387. I’m not pverly concerned. Labour are increasing their core vote on the back of the Tory conference. Until there are signs they are also increasing their support with floating voters (need to get to around 33% for that) I can’t see much to worry about. Punters are over-reacting to Labour improving from a meltdown position to simply a bad position, IMO.
@386. Back to Basics anyone?!
390. Yeah, we know that there are lots of people out there ready to delude themselves
Have you looked in the mirror lately?
396 - I wonder if Jan Moir, like Spartacus will get crucified shortly?
Berlusconi is a psychopath
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8314110.stm
404 I suspect her career already is.
@403:
I think you’ll find she already has been.
I wish I understood this Twitter phenomenon of everyone talking as if they were an enlightenment-era philosopher and wit.
Those posters are great.
How nice of the Tories to remind everyone of their infamous “there is no such thing as society” line.
@402. I’ve got your mugshot hanging on it.
I want to ensure I never look like that.
407 Said the Sage of GrabCocque
“Life’s better under a Conservative.”
Or did I mistype it?
400 GIN - And over-reacting to two polls which show Labour attaining the magic number 30.
I know the poster the Tories should run next year.
A picture of Gordon Brown smiling with the caption
“5 more fcuking years?”
407 - Jonathan - [onmessage]There is such a thing as society, it’s just not the same thing as the state.[/onmessage]
I just found this pastiche of Labour posters on Youtube. It’s quite amusing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovAfRU2oF8g
Has tim actually finally descended into the realms of madness?
Well here we go into the ninth circle with a couple of dresses (and a pair of £350 stilettos)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1217291/AMANDA-PLATELL-Im-huge-fan-Sarah-Brown-I-worry-suddenly-shes-getting-things-wrong.html
BNP debate ‘illegal’, warns Hain
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8313680.stm
Wouldn’t it be a massive PR coup for the BNP if they were dropped from Question Time at the last moment? The BNP’s idiotic views would not be exposed to scrutiny, which can only harm them, and they’d crow about being ‘banned’.
@410.
3 million unemployed (twice)
Unemployment stats fiddled (2 million chucked on the sick)
Unemplyment never lower than rate handed to them by Callaghan
Record rate of home repossessions
Manufacturing industry decimated
Liberalised financial markets leading to the credit crunch
Record number of crimes
Inner cities burning
Child poverty tripled
NHS left to rack and ruin
Ditto Education
Back to Basics
Etc, Etc ad infinitum
407 Jonathan - And how nice of you to remind us that Labour’s philosophy is that ’society’ is something imposed from above and policed by government inspectors.
416 - Whilst I disagree with Peter Hain on the ban, I’m going to be charitable to Peter Hain on this occasion because he’s got a good record on tackling racists. But this an example of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.
386: How about “Labour: Nationalising your Private Life since 1997″?
In essence, that’s what they’ve been doing, which is why they can’t do the things which really matter e.g. going after criminals, keeping out illegal immigrants etc. Labour has now made practically everyone in the country a criminal so while officials are given the right to inspect our conservatories and interrogate our children if we have the temerity to educate them at home, demand all details of our foreign holidays, etc etc, those who mug us, murder us, rob our houses etc - whether home-grown or not - essentially get away with it. Labour are both authoritarian and incompetent at the tasks which only the State can and should do - keeping the peace and protecting us from our enemies here and abroad.
I like the poster: an updated version of this and the “Set the people free” slogan in one of the 1950’s elections would be v.g. for the Tories, if they have the nous to use them.
405 Plato sir I suspect you may be right. She simultaneously upset the massed ranks of Gately/Boyzone fans, liberal Guardianistas and the gay community. In between her prejudices she did make a valid point about the self destructiveness of certain celebrity lifestyles regardless of their sexual orientation.
Immigrant allowed to stay because of pet cat
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6360116/Immigrant-allowed-to-stay-because-of-pet-cat.html
Afternoon all
Re: 410 - I’m not sure how good life would be under Eric Pickles - is there life under Eric Pickles ? Should we know ? Do we care ?
Re: 416 - Have to agree with you, I don’t know what Hain is playing at. Of course, Griffin will be the voice of sweet reason on Thursday but I’d like to think the other panellists would be itching to point out the neo-socialist nature of much of the BNP’s economic policy for example.
Re 417
Don’t you love regurgitating Gordon’s lists? In fact could it be Gordon Brown?
369. Ed Balls and Nick Griffin have the same haircut.
In Thailand I’m quite happy to have gays and trans-sexuals at my place. Some ladyboys are stunningly attractive. But in the West I am yet to encounter a gay couple I could tolerate in a garden. I’m talkin’ (fist-f%&king?) men here, of course; every guys like the disciple of Lesbos!
@423:
Is there life under Pickles? I thing that depends on how well he disinfects the rolls.
416. Is Peter Hain a good authority on what constitutes legal and illegal acts?
418 Top tip. I know the Tories are desperately trying to prove something to someone with this. But really, wasting time and effort digging up one of your most infamous slogans is not clever. Several point for boldness, minus several million for good thinking.
420 How about?
Gordon Brown and Labour invites you to join their New
World OrderDark Ages…….@426:
“I’ll be late home for tea, dear, tolerating gays in the garden”
@424. It’s reality.
Why do you really think the Tories only scuttle along at 40pc in the polls? Most voters don’t want those days back.
And thankfully (and in an increasingly common tactical error), Cameron let the mask slip 8 months before the election. Which gives us time to watch Labour rise to 33pc in the polls to force the hung parliament everyone wants.
432. BenM: the Tories only scuttle along at 40pc in the polls?
Only 40%? ONLY 40%????
429. As you well know it wasn’t a slogan. If you read what Thatcher said the substance is quite sound.
I don’t follow Hain’s argument. Is the BBC legally bound to only invite “lawful” organisations?
432
432
Benn M
The “hung” relates to the phrase “Labour hung out to dry”. Thats what the electorate wants.
@432:
Oh, now you’ve done it. Being a tawdry slogan-spurting imbecile is one thing. But deliberately misinterpreting polls to do it…
OGH’s orbiting punishment lasers are locking on to your position as I type.
426 Trop d’information, mon brave.
“to force the hung parliament everyone wants.”
If everyone wants it, the polls would reflect that. It may be they do, but it may be that they don’t and that what they want is a Tory government, hence the current lead…….
437 - Oh come on, Everyone knows the Tories need to be polling at 94% to be sure of getting a majority of 1.
433 “he Tories only scuttle along at 40pc in the polls?”
Thanks for that wibbler. I’ll try that with the Thai authorities. What are the odds they are as dumb as the UK’s? 1/100,000,00?
He’s got a point - only the Tories are anywhere near 40%…
419
Hain is fighting from a trench that has aleardy been overrun.
The BNP got votes in the EuroElections because people didn’t know what they stood for, only that they stood against what the other parties represented - in that way they are very much like any new party.
The answer must be to shine the spotlight on BNP policies. Demystify the BNP and hold it up to proper comparison to see if it does have a place in politics.
URW at 387 - the betting markets are probably not far off.
I have been out and about for a couple of long canvassing sessions this weekend and I can confirm that our conference has hardened the backbone of many labour voters in Torbay.
The battle lines have been drawn and now that Labour can see more clearly the cut of the enemy’s jib more of them are up for a fight, it seems.
I suppose this was always a risk of the honesty first strategy but all thoughts of 100+ majority have gone for me. I still think we will win but Labour will definitely be above 30% now in my view.
Of course events may take a different turn but 42/31/18 is where my heart says the national polling will end up, giving us about a 38 majority.
@437. “a tawdry slogan-spurting imbecile”??!!
I like that - good line. Translates as: I have no argument so I’ll vomit some typically infantile rightwing insults instead.
@436. Thatcherism is what’s getting hung out to dry. The British people do not want Thatcherism Mark 2 thank you very much. We got rid of the rusty old banger in 1990 and don’t want it sold back to us by a bunch of over-priviliged hooray-henries as if it is a shiny new performance vehicle.
‘Cos we the British people know it ain’t.
432 ROFLMAO
445, not an activist but that assessment would chime with my own. What do you make of the view that the PBR will effectively do the same for Labour (ie, they’ll have to come forth with proposals or be derided by the press) and have a similar but probably smaller effect to the detriment of Labour and advantage of the Tories?
Presumably as David Cameron moves into No10 next year, BenM will be claiming that people don’t want a Tory govenrment…..
Comeback Roger, all is forgiven!
@433. Yep, ONLY 40pc.
What was Blair polling around the same time in 1997?
446. BenM: The British people do not want [...] we the British people know it ain’t.
[citation needed]
BenM != “the British people”.
I laughed when Hain was talking about the BNP’s Caucasian/ARYAN!!!!/Apartheid blustering - he is a chump.
His whole no-platform stance is stupid and arrogant.
446 Ben M trying the Tory toffs line.. How unoriginal, and pointless. Did you learn nothing from Crewe and Nantwich..
Note: The subject BenM’s delusional world is being manipulated successfully.
451
Oh dear-the cardinal PB sin of comparing pre-reform polls with those of today……
Re 446. Nurse! We’ve got another case of ‘Life On Mars’ syndrome. There’s another one got out who thinks it’s still 1997!
Another rather substandard would-be spoof artist on the site today.
451. BenM: What was Blair polling around the same time in 1997?
In 1996, I presume you mean?
Not significantly different from how the Conservatives are polling now for pollsters with unchanged methodologies.
40% will give a Conservative majority unless the Lib Dems totally collapse.
444 - I agree, and I hope that the questions aren’t race related. And we get to see the BNP’s other policies.
452 Oh dear… BenM betrays himself as an astroturfer.
@449. What are the polls at the moment? Con 41, Lab 30, Lib Dems 17?
In any sane democracy that leads to coalition. In all elections since WWII the centre or centre left has gained an outright majority of votes in Britain yet the people have been lumbered with mad, damaging rightwingery at almost every turn.
445 Marcus - Were you seeing any effect from the revival of the MPs expenses issue?
462. Or indeed, the Centre or Centre-right has gained a majority?
Re 462. Nurse! - I think you’ll need a straightjacket for this one!
462 - Clearly you are confusing a plurality with a majority.
362. BenM: In any sane democracy that leads to coalition.
That depends on whether you want there to be a possibility of a majority government ever being elected.
In all elections since WWII the centre or centre left has gained an outright majority of votes in Britain
Define “centre or centre left”.
the people have been lumbered with mad, damaging rightwingery at almost every turn.
What utter bollocks.
448. The PBR won’t deter Labour people because they will fudge it.
Cuts will all all be coming in future and in theory, in painless non job-loss ways and certainly not through anything detrimental to their own supporters or floating voters in the public sector.
It will help harden our vote a bit - the dishonesty and the vagueness will help our cause, but our vote is pretty hard anyway so I don’t think that will translate into a measurable poll percentage gain.
Of course a closing of the polling gap (possible hung or Labour Govt in the future), plus a fudged PBR could cause a flight from Stirling but a devaluation will probably be a short term help for Labour; unless, of course, it becomes a rout.
BenM = Majority Man Mk II
@462:
Yes, any “sane” democracy would allow a party that only 17% of people want into government.
@454. A General Election is different from a By-Election!
Being told by IHT financed Tory Toffs who haven’t done a real day’s work in their lifetimes that we have to tighten our belts will resonate far harder in austere times than it did in that one off election.
Especially on the back of that ludicrous Inheritance Tax pledge. One rule for the rich, another absurdly authoritarian one for everyone else.
BenM
2001 GE Result
Lab 41%
Con 32%
LD 18%
Oth 9%
On the bit about left-wing majorities. This is the sort of nonsense Polly spouts. If the electoral system was different, people would cast their votes differently. You can’t compare apples and oranges. Have a look at the last few Euro election results to see what I mean.
468, oh I concur they’ll attempt a fudge, but it can’t work. If they have realistic proposals it’ll anger their lefty unionist core. If they don’t it’ll piss off the media and the economically literate.
Labour = Luca Badoer
“Being told by IHT financed Tory Toffs who haven’t done a real day’s work in their lifetimes that we have to tighten our belts will resonate far harder in austere times than it did in that one off election.
Especially on the back of that ludicrous Inheritance Tax pledge. One rule for the rich, another absurdly authoritarian one for everyone else.”
HAHHAHAHAHAHHA
“L is for LABOUR
L is for LICE”
@470. Yep, f— what the people say, eh Martin?
Typical Tory.
471. BenM.
Ah, so you are just another astroturfer/bot.
Glad we established that quickly.
Balls in a school (what a surprise) trying to defend himself against Sheerman’s criticism.
BBC spin is that Sheerman is manoevering to be PLP chairman.
468. Marcus
but a devaluation will probably be a short term help for Labour
- I’m not so sure about that - devaluation doesn’t help in the short term because we are so dependent on imports. The first thing it is likely to cause is inflation. Medium term perhaps……
463 “Were you seeing any effect from the revival of the MPs expenses issue?”
No, not really. But then I am not an MP.
BenM
My parents are very far from rich. In fact my dad is a manual worker, union member and labour voter.
He will benefit from Dead Millionaires Tax, although being dead, I’m not sure he will be that bothered.
468. Thanks to that typo I’m getting a lovely image of everyone fleeing from a small Scottish city in response to the PBR. Where to, I’m not so sure…
Barry on R5, sticking his knife in yet again - he’s on fire today.
Balls on at 1530.
@475:
Why didn’t the Labour Party offer a referendum on PR in 1997 like it promised?
Did it conveniently “forget”?
471 - Yet as Ian Hislop pointed out, Labour copied the Tories IHT pledges.
@472. And Polly is right.
GEs are way different to Euros, given what is at stake. And the electorate treat them differently.
Plus the Euros are infected by mendacious Rightwing Eurosceptic sludge. So are not representative of what would happen at a GE at all.
473 - Bit Harsh on Luca Badoer that.
469 Martin - are EasyJet opening a new route?
“a flight from Stirling”
“a fudged PBR could cause a flight from Stirling”
Lovely image!
@485:
Are you in favour of PR?
I have some bad news for you. The Labour Party isn’t.
485 - Mendacious, which party promised a referendum on Lisbon then lied? Actually two parties. And It was the right wing sludge that did.
It was Labour and the Liberal Democrats.
417. BenM
“Manufacturing industry decimated”
That’ll be the UK manufacturing industry which increased output by 15% between 1979 and 1997 and has since fallen back to the level of 1973?
The facts are rather inconvenient for you aren’t they?
Gordon Brown the factory shutter.
486 Whoever is paying you to troll on here really isn’t getting value for money.
Suggest you try http://www.conservativehome.com
@471. And I was right behind what Hislop said.
IHT thresholds should not have been adjusted because of ludicrous asset price inflation.
Those gains were never earned and were rightly available for tax.
477, he probably is. Doesn’t make his statement false though.
486, I do feel very slightly sorry for Badoer. The ‘no testing’ rule was/is moronic. I hope they scrap it next season.
I feel more sorry for myself though. 70/1 spot and I didn’t back it
A spot of Smithsonian quality! A payout of Dancerian miniscularity!
No, Polly is wrong.
Change the voting system and people will vote differently. Equally, when people’s perception of a party changes, their voting patterns change. Look at the Scots LDs for an example.
And only a champagne swilling socialist who works in the HoC would use the term ‘mendacious’ to describe DE voters who cast their vote for the eurosceptic UKIP and Green parties. Not to mention English Democrats.
Labour toffs - hating their core vote since forever.
Why am I arguing with Trolls when I have a wedding to organise?
485: you amuse me
How do you know the centre wouldn’t have gone into coalition with the Tories rather than the looney left of Labour?
You seem to be arguing that the only democratic result is permanent left wing government……
497 Are you really having to pull it all forward to 31st? I couldn’t tell if you were kidding.
If not, GOOD LUCK!
496, who’s getting married?
Hired the morris dancers yet?
499 - Thank you, Yes Plato, I’m getting married on Halloween.
500 - Sadly, I’m banned from having any dancers at my stag do, or wedding.
For some reason, she thinks me in the same room as some exotic dancers is a disaster waiting to happen.
@491. What’s that? Manufacturing output in Britain increased by an average of 0.8pc per annum over the Tories long and ruinous reign?!!!
Absolutely pitiful! Facts are rather incovenient aren’t they?
Haven’t got the German or French figures to hand, but they pretty much knock this - ahem - record sideways!
501 - TSE Congratulations!
Wow, house move, baby and wedding! That’s a lot to take on at once. Best of luck with it.
493because of ludicrous asset price inflation
Which party allowed that inflation to persist over the past 12 years?
Which party will you support at the next GE?
And if your answer is the same for both questions you will reavel yourself as the legendary mythological ‘Oozlam bird’ and you will disappear in the traditional manner of such birds…….
501 -Did you get a late cancellation?
Its the impregnation thats the sin, not the scan by the way.
@503:
Hush now, child. We tire of your antics.
And please put your pants back on.
502, probably afraid the dancers will be unable to resist your screaming and eaglish attractions
Just as well you aren’t having morris dancers. After all, you don’t want your bride struck down by helpless lust for us in our magnificent and manly gear.
BenM
Walk over! Heel boy! Back into your kennel.
There is a Community Patrol Officer about.
reavel = reveal
The govt are planning to tax car boot sales - via higher rates on the site landowners. Another case of Labour sticking its oar in where it’s not wanted.
503. Haven’t got the German or French figures to hand
Well if you’re so impressed you could go and enjoy their hospitality. Nothing is stopping you…….
504 - Thanks,
506 - After making a rather generous donation to Catholic aid, a late cancellation slot was found for us. And the sin she wants to avoid is having children born out of wedlock.
410. I would imagine that would depend on which conservative you were under.
“What’s that? Manufacturing output in Britain increased”
And fell under Labour. So no matter how bad you portray the Tories, Labour are worse.
I don’t know much about this internets thing
But I know that you shoudl not feed a troll
BenM = waste of everyone’s time
End of
468: “Of course a closing of the polling gap (possible hung or Labour Govt in the future), plus a fudged PBR could cause a flight from Stirling ”
Why will people flee parts of Scotland?
511 There are two constituencies no-one in their right mind wants to upset. One is caravanners. The other is car-booters.
“Labour to tax car-boots to death = Cammo PM with 250 majority….
@505. I shall certainly be voting Labour. In order to make sure that the bitter, reactionary (and therefore typical) Tory who is standing here for that hopeless Party has as difficult time as possible getting elected.
Not that it’ll do much good, but hope springs eternal.
508 - One thing that will cheer you up, if its two boys, the 2nd boy will have the Christian names “Sebastian Morris”
@512. The “If you like it so much why don’t you go live there?” argument?!
LMFAO! Is that it?! Is that what you’re resorting to?!
Absolutely clueless!
503 ooh, knockdown argument: Haven’t got the German or French figures to hand, but they pretty much knock this - ahem - record sideways!
I have an argument which completely refutes everything you have ever said or will say, but I don’t have it to hand at the moment.
btw don’t knock inherited wealth: I can promise you, if and when you get any you will find it totally rocks. If anyone ever offers you a Potentially Exempt Transfer, just say yes!!!
520 - purely out of interest LSE, which bit of the wedding is your young lady letting you organise?
519. Really - I’d assumed you were a floating voter.
521 I thought you were going for Cameron and David if it was a girl and a boy
@519:
Yes, I’ve always found that to be the most endearingly tragic leftie trait.
Their continual, misplaced hope that somebody, somewhere, one day will make Socialism look like a good idea.
I saw the stand with that poster on at conference, there were three other very good ones, Labour isn’t working, the “MacMillan Prosperity Mix” and one of a monkey strangling Britannia with the tag line “Socialism is strangling Britain!” Simple and effective.
523 - Erm, I’m organising the venue, the transport on the day and the drinks.
Betting PostBacked Benesova to beat Lisicki at just under 2/1 (2.96). They’ve met once, this year, when Benesova won at the US Open. Similar recent record, Benesova’s about 9 lower in the rankings.
Had some good results recently, helpfully aided by some retirements at the last men’s tournament, so hopefully it’ll continue.
525 - I’ve learnt the hard way, never disagree with a pregnant woman. Pretty much my side of the conservation these days is
“Yes dear, i totally agree”
529 Well that’s what matters most - somewhere to get married, getting to said place and getting plastered afterwards
519 Ben as with all voters who think Labour is fab, I hope:
A member of your family loses his or her job in the next year
A member of yuor family has his/her house repossessed in the next year
A young male member of your family is unfairly arrested by Gordon brown’s thought police, is detained for the maximum time and then has to wait months to be told there will be no action since he didnt do anything wrong in the first place but nevertheless ends up with his fingerprints being on the English database for the remainder of his life unless a future Tory government you oppose getting elected abolishes the draconian acts of the Labour government of the past 12 years.
502 TSE
No dancers at your stag do? Is it because of the £30,000 licence?
520, huzah
Let us hope your haploids were well-equipped with Y-chromosomes!
BenM
Down boy!
tim, call him off will you!
526- if he’s voting Labour he probably isn’t a socialist. All the socialists I know (and I know plenty) loathe Labour now. It’s very humorous to watch.
533 - Is more to do with an incident a couple of years ago, when at someone’s stag do, I ended up being handcuffed to a dancer, and the key breaking.
BenM
Sit…
Wait…
Stay…
Vote…
New Thread up
537
What goes on tour, stays on tour!!!!!!!!!!
New Thread.
TSE indeed you are a brave man. Any one of those 3 is enough to terminate a relationship.
519 - “Bitter and reactionary”. Basically, long-time lurker, Dave Spart, has basically joined pbc’s crisis of capitalism fightback, and will basically continue on page 94…
521. And isn’t yours a clever response? I wasn’t expecting that at all but it still begs the question as likely you will be distraught come next year.
As for what I’m resorting through. I do admit I am being lazy but I really can’t be bothered to try and debate with someone whose posts are so sadly and transparently lacking in any real comprehension or insight.
What can I say………
Iain Dale - Bribing the Marginals
Not just Labour it would seem. Strathcathro Hospital in Angus certainly benefits from being an SNP held marginal it would seem.