Is Labour vulnerable on encroachments to personal liberties?
September 16th, 2009
Could this be one of the big election themes?
Over the past week I’ve been surprised by the public reaction to the compulsory vetting regime planned for those who have contact with children who are not their own.
If I’d been asked to venture a view before this blew up I’d have said that virtually anything that helped clamp down on paedophiles would have been applauded by the Great British Public.
Maybe it’s the way the initial story came out but there’s little doubt that the measure flies in the face of public opinion. This is supported this by a new Politics Home poll which found significant opposition to what the government is doing except, interestingly, amongst Labour supporters.
But it’s the general issue that I think is important and could be electorally significant.
Just look at the chart above from the poll which deals with the general question of the emncroachment on personal liberties. That voters split by a ratio of 8:1 in believing that the state now has “too much of a say” in our lives is surely something that party strategists of all parties should be registering.
This might be one of the reasons why Labour has found it difficult in winning back the Iraq-war switchers who voted for Charles Kennedy’s Lib Dems in 2005.
Looking forward I wonder whether some of the authoritarian rhetoric coming from shadow home secretary, Chris Grayling, needs to be toned down. He sometimes sounds like the last Tory Home Secretary, Michael Howard, whose reputation was only redeemed when Labour successors in the post - Blunkett, Straw and Smith - came over as being even more repressive.
My concern about this finding is that it came at the end of a series of questions on the adult screening controls which might have influenced the result.
But the perception is certainly there - Labour has introduced one measure after another since May 1997 which has made people feel less free. Maybe that is what is being articulated in the opposition to the adult-CRB controls?
I can see this being woven into one of the key themes of the election.
Mike Smithson
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Yes
Labour have a totalitarian philosophy of government that glorifies the state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of national life.
The Italians had a name for it.
3…Fascisti?
Of course, it may only be my imagination that this Labour government demonstrates a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.
3 - Thanks, graham, that’s the word I was looking for.
Ipsos-MORI have now published the detailed datasheets from what they call their “Scottish Public Opinion Monitor September 2009″ (which sounds suspiciously like they intend this to be the first in a new series of Scottish monthly polls - if true this is great news). This is the first MORI voting intention poll in years, and is highly welcomed because the Scottish market is dominated by YouGov, with the occasional Taylor Nelson Sofres poll. Wonderful to get another methodology measuring public opinion.
The big news is: Anthony Wells, Mike Smithson, and (in fairness) everone else published the wrong Headline Holyrood voting intention figures! They published (were only given?) the “All giving a voting intention” figures. As we all know, the Headline Ipsos-MORI figures published by Anthony, Mike and the media for their Great Britain-wide polls is the “Certain to vote” figures.
As we have not a had a MORI poll in Scotland for several years, the bracketed comparison is with the Scottish general election in May 2007:
Ipsos-MORI/Holyrood Magazine
Scottish Parliament voting intention - Constituency Vote (FPTP)
Fieldwork: 20-31 August 2009
Sample size: 1000
SNP 38% (+5)
Lab 25% (-7)
Con 15% (-2)
LD 15% (-1)
oth 7%
Other, previously unpublished, findings include:
Satisfaction with party leaders
- “How satisfied or dissatisfied are you with the way … is doing his job?”
Gordon Brown -14
David Cameron -2
Alex Salmond +18
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Scotland/scottish-public-opinion-monitor-charts-september-2009.pdf#page=3
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Scotland/scottish-public-opinion-monitor-voting-intention-september-2009.pdf
There are lots and lots more goodies to be extracted from detailed analysis of the datasheets.
In summary, my take on this is that we must remember that May 2007 was the thus-far record high-water mark in terms of SNP electoral performance. If we have seen a 6% swing from LAB -> SNP since then, then we can fully understand why the Labour Party did not want to hold the Glasgow NE by-election on the same day as Norwich N!!
And remember, this is mid-term in Holyrood terms. Not many governments (especially minority ones) perform this well in polling in the mid-term.
The main page for these Ipsos-MORI findings is here:
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2470
Don’t mention the name ‘Charlie Kennedy’ Mike. You’ll have your Scottish Lib Dem readership in floods of tears, as the memories come flooding back of the Good Ole Days.
The Scottish Lib Dems entered their long Wilderness Years with Kennedy’s departure. When will they emerge from the other side? Don’t hold your breath.
Just did an online Yougov survey, buried in all the questions about how many friends I have online was a voting intention question
Yes. The whole issue of the Labour government’s erosion of civil liberties, authoritarian despotism, encroaching fascism, and the increasingly out-of-control police, is - or should be - the number one reason for them to be kicked out. It should be their poll tax. It should be their Berlin Wall. It should be their Tiananmen Square massacre. It should be their Timisoara. It should be their Wannsee Conference. It should be their Tangentopoli. It should be their Shining Path insurgency. It should be their storming of the Golden Temple at Amritsar. It should be their Amritsar massacre. It should be their Götterdämmerung. It should be their page 94. It should be their extended analogy and metaphor.
This is one issue on which the Trotskyite position (concentrating on attacking the BNP as a big bad bogeyman scapegoat of fascism) is wrong, and the Stalinist position (recognising that the real danger of the gradual imposition of fascism in the UK comes more from the Labour government) is more realistic.
6. To be fair, Stuart, Mike did publish those figures!
6. One thing I hadn’t seen before were the Lockerbie findings from Mori - 42% agreed with MacAskill’s decision and 45% disagreed. That corroborates the findings from the YouGov poll commissioned by the SNP - clearly support for the release hardened as time went on.
I think the personal liberties stuff works very well in the abstract; Obviously hardly anyone wants more state involvement in people’s lives as a general principle.
The problem with making it a “key theme” is that it opens the Tories to charges of being soft on whatever it is that the state is meddling in people’s lives to prevent. This also puts them up against various “non-political” pressure groups - in this case the NSPCC - who people tend to trust much more than politicians.
The Tories may now be able to have this fight and come out ahead, but as long as they’ve got a clear lead they probably won’t think saying anything of substance about it is worth the gamble. They’d be more likely just to pick a few minor instances of the Nanny State Gone Mad, without giving too many specific examples that Labour can attack them on.
6. Effect on Westminster MPS ?
This is yet another finding that opens up clear territory on the Lib Dems traditional home ground for them to walk unchallenged into.
Whether they have the political savy and the media machines will let them is a very open question.
The more I see of Nick Clegg and David Cameron, the more I see Cameron as Clegg Lite rather than the standard portrayal of Clegg as being a lightweight version of Cameron.
And of course in Cable, the Lib Dems have the guy rated the most trusted politician in the country and a massive lead over Osborne who is a complete voter turn-off.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/09/16/gordon-brown-has-the-power-to-perform-a-miracle-115875-21676554/
I never normally read anything in the Mirror but I saw the headline on google news and couldn’t resist. As expected, it’s pitiful.
15. “The more I see of Nick Clegg and David Cameron, the more I see Cameron as Clegg Lite”
Now, that’s what I call “lite”.
Time to dish out the awards for getting Gordon Brown to surrender on c*ts. First in the queue must be George Osborne and David Cameron, who stuck it to the Prime Minister for months, culminating in that remarkable series of PMQs confrontations in July. Mr Brown is credited with that line about “Oppositions move to the centre, while Governments can move the centre”: The Tories can claim to have pulled off the improbable, which is moving the centre while in Opposition. “Tory cuts v Labour investment” cost them the last two elections, and there was little enthusiasm for a third go. It’s not quite Charles Martel stopping the Saracens at Poitiers, but suddenly they are off the hook.
Labour is now trying to impale them on another one, namely cuts now v cuts later. But if, as Mervyn King suggested today, we are already seeing a return to growth, then Labour’s case for putting off cuts might look fairly empty by Christmas. Remember, 2009/10 is settled. What is in dispute is what happens in FY2010/11. Peter Mandelson tried to head that off with warnings of a double-dip, but Alistair Darling wasn’t buying that idea today. Of course, with Vince Cable beating Labour and Tories in the candour stakes with specific proposals for what might be chopped, there is still plenty of scope for testing the Tory line. But a big achievement nevertheless.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100010047/a-victory-for-george-and-dave-but-also-darling-mandyand-fraser/
Fieldwork: 20-31 August 2009
That’s an enormous timeframe for just 1000 responses.
15 “The more I see of Nick Clegg and David Cameron, the more I see Cameron as Clegg Lite rather than the standard portrayal of Clegg as being a lightweight version of Cameron.”
One of these Leaders has seen a massive increase in the fortunes of his Party under his leadership; whilst the other has been at best treading water whilst Labour’s vote has disintegrated. One has a firm image in the mind of the voters; whilst the other? “When he comes round for lunch with his mother, even she has to Google him to find out who he is….” One has firmly harnessed the public mood on cuts in public spending, forcing the Prime Minister to make a humiliating climbdown; whilst the other has not a single policy connected with him in the public mind.
Now - which is Lite again?
19. LS
And?
Can you not just graciously accept an opinion poll which does not show the Conservative Party to be Masters of the Universe?
Or are you trying to insinuate that Ipsos-MORI are incompetent and thus to be ignored? Funny how that allegation never crops up when Ipsos-MORI shows the Tories doing very well in England. Ho hum.
Neil, if you are out there, please take note.
The Unemployment figures should be out this morning.
22 On their inexorable march towards 3,000,000+ no doubt.
When does Gordon have to do his next U-turn and acknowledge that this unemployment is part of the fall-out from his very own “boom and bust”, rather than trying to run with the absurd notion that it was part of some Tory master-plan?
on thread/on cue, Conservative Home publishes a post with Dominic Grieve talking about Conservative policy on reversing the rise of the surveillance state…..
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/09/dominic-grieve-unveils-how-a-conservative-government-would-reversing-the-rise-of-the-surveillance-st.html
11. Red Meteor - “Mike did publish those figures!”
Whoops. So he did! Mmmmm…. sorry Mike.
But I can see where I got confused. Both Mike AND Anthony (incorrectly) presented Constituency + Regional figures. In fact, they had confused the “ALL” and the “CERTAIN TO VOTE” findings to be “CONST” and “REGION” findings.
Anthony gives an Update correcting the error. Mike does not:
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/09/12/mori-suggests-labour-could-lose-half-its-scottish-mps/
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2248
The reason I got confused is because Mike and Anthony both presented separate Westminster “All” and “Certain” findings, but I remembered that they had not done the same for Holyrood vi.
I was in a big hurry this morning, but really should have taken the time to Google up Mike’s original article.
Bad blogger! I will now go and flagellate myself.
Mike, have you been altering that article? Now the Const and Reg figures are identical! I wish you would copy Anthony (and other leading bloggers) and make it crystal clear what you have altered when you correct/update posts!
re 15. think, like many Lib Dems, you are making a massive mistake about Cameron which could cost the party dear. The Lib Dems have never really faced up to the Cameron threat - just look at how many 2005 LD voters are now supporting the Tories to see this quantified.
At the same time I think many Tories who dismiss Clegg’s potential are also making a huge mistake.
The one light-weight leader in British politics is Brown because he is so scared of getting it wrong that he never makes decisions that can be attributed to him. He is surrounded by other light-weights who haven’t got the courage to depose him even though it is blindingly obvious that he will take them to electoral oblivion.
Short answer is yes - in theory particularly good ground for the LDs looking for ways to attack Labour that doesn’t cause them problems elsewhere.
However there’s a problem. Despite ZNL importing millions more young men into the country crime has miraculously plummeted, and yet despite crime miraculously plummeting people are much more fearful of crime, at least in areas where crime has miraculously plummeted the most.
That fear of crime gets used to scare people into accepting or even welcoming the totalitarian stuff because they don’t realise it’s not to protect them from criminals it’s to protect ZNL from the citizens.
So the long answer is yes Labour is very vulnerable on this stuff among it’s Guardianista and part of its ethnic vote. Among the rest it’s very vulnerable *if* they can be persuaded the totalitarian stuff is nothing to do with crime - which it obviously isn’t because when ZNL are dealing with actual criminals they treat them as victims of “society” who must be protected from “society” whereas “society” itself is…
the wicked law-abiding mainstream majority suffering from false consciousness who are responsible for supporting the evil capitalist status quo and don’t particularly hate america and support the Queen and are all racist, sexist and homophobic and wave flags at last night of the proms and etc etc…
Those are the people the ZNL see as the real enemy and against who their instinctive totalitarianism is directed.
I hear that they are planning a musical based on the dying days of the Brown government? It’s going to be called “Cuts”.
10
“It should be their poll tax.”
Thats certainly the line taken by NO2ID who produce anti-ID card T shorts with the slogan “Labour’s Poll Tax” on them.
21. Stuart Dickson.
My god, that’s an incredibly defensive response to a post that wasn’t even criticising the poll but merely pointing out an interesting item - I don’t believe the fieldwork dates were available before, which didn’t stop an esteemed PBer, who I shall not name to spare his blushes, from jumping to conclusions and claiming that the poll was taken “at the height of the BBC bullshit” was, I believe, the quote.
So Brown has moved from ignoring/encouraging crime to all suspected of revolting acts against children. The Politics Home poll confirms his great knack for misreading the feeling of the public.
Brown the manipulator, Brown the incompetant, Brown the traitor.
Unemployment soon: 2,500,001
27 “At the same time I think many Tories who dismiss Clegg’s potential are also making a huge mistake.”
Agree with that. He’s too young for a lot of people to take seriously and he’s a bit rubbish at the moment but i think he’ll grow into it given time.
In the 2005 UK General Election, SNP polled 1.5% of the votes cast - 412,267
The British National Party polled 0.7% - 192,746
In the 2009 European Elections, SNP polled 2.1% - 321,007
The British National Party polled 6.2% - 943,598
If the BNP tried to hijack every frigging thread with numerous lengthy posts about a political force which is beginning to make the SNP look positively puny, I suspect that you, Mike - together with most of your readers - would insist they desist.
And yet Dickson gets away scot free with abusing your hospitality every day to promote his own very, very small minority politics.
Stop it!
just attended the last day of the Khmer rouge genocide trials. Extraordinary and harrowing.
re 26. The post was published at 1856 (our server time) on Saturday and the edit history shows there was a minor tidying up five minuted later and has not been changed since.
As far as I can see the number originally published remained.
29 I think you have missed out a consonant.
How many Lib Dem MPs will Clegg be able to lose and hold on to the leadership ? Not many I guess. So, who will bne his successor.
Dave PM will have a new leader of the opposition and a new leader of the main minor party.
33. mirthios: If the BNP tried to hijack every frigging thread with numerous lengthy posts about a political force which is beginning to make the SNP look positively puny, I suspect that you, Mike - together with most of your readers - would insist they desist.
Well, there was Emily Powell-Churchill, who did eventually get banned.
OT
Paging Rod Crosby….
“I reject the sort of argument that governments always recover towards an election. Firstly, public opinion moves for a reason, the government have to do something to make themselves more attractive (or the opposition something to drive support away). More importantly, it’s simply not supported by the facts. I looked at it in great detail here”
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2256
re 37. Clegg is safe even if the party gets less than 40 seats.
The only person of substance who could replace him is Chris
Huhne who is defending a very small majority in Eastleigh.
Personally don’t mind the SNP posts as otherwise i’d have no clue but otherwise don’t want to take sides.
I don’t like that question in the poll. It might just be because I am a Libertarian but I cannot see how anybody could answer “too little”. A more balanced question would have included the
darkother side’s point of view by mentioning safety (as dubious an argument as this is).Personal liberty is a vote-changer for a minority of voters (me included, I simply cannot support Labour while it continues hell-bent to introduce identity cards). However, it is only a minority who are in that camp. The group that get most steamed up about civil liberties are the muesli-eating classes. The Lib Dems’ failure to make greater inroads is quite extraordinary: they have an open goal.
Most voters are more interested in more tangible topics. However, these do not need to be treated as unrelated.
Our host praises Nick Clegg’s potential up above, though as a possible Lib Dem voter I’m not hugely impressed with him as yet. There is a clear theme waiting for him to make - and he needs to be quick or David Cameron will get there first - which combines an assault on the financial cost of the Government’s illiberal measures with the civic cost of such measures. The public is ready for both of those mutually reinforcing messages, yet the Lib Dems are not making either with any great vigour. Time to roll up your shirt sleeves, Mr Clegg.
Do you believe the state should track you when you go on holiday?
No
Do you believe in strict border controls?
Yes.
43. But the ISA is a very tangible topic. Millions of people are effected. I am one of them. The ISA takes no responisbility for anything at all but has the power to fine organisations which fail to follow its guidelines.
Vote loser stamped all over it.
41 - Mr Jones - I have no objections to the contents of the posts - they are innocuous enough - but the fact that they very regularly and very rudely interrupt the thread, totally off topic, is like a waiter coming to your table and telling you that he doesn’t care what you want to eat, he’s going to stuff you with haggis whether you like it or not.
If Dickson and his mates want to discuss minority politics all day, every day, let them start up - and pay for - their own site.
44: Tim, I rarely agree with. But he may well have a point here…
Nick Clegg’s fundamental problem remains that his activists, especially in seats already held by the party, remain primarily of the Senior wing.
Thus to protect his leadership he needs to stay with equivocation/equidistance at best, whereas to benefit from tactical votes he needs to switch to an antithesis of 1997 - since the public is very much in “get Labour out” mode right now.
Net gains (and, with them, the chance to pass Labour in an election or two’s time) are available if if plays it right.
I hope he does.
O/T Morning all, feel surprisingly well after my excesses last night.
I see from the beebs International website that Gordon’s speach is down the list on the UK politics page and the Tories plans to roll back surviellance is a big story. Good thread pick Mike
I wonder if part of OGH’s surprise at the way the debate has gone on this scheme is precedent.
The NHS debate got as far as ‘I love the NHS/ I’m Daniel Hannan’
The economic debate was all about who would say the words ‘cuts’ last.
However there seems to be a proper discussion here about the right balance between protecting children and civil liberties, which is refreshing. I’m not surprised this is causing such anger, even more so than ID cards as best I can see, it appears that any Government would do well to learn that any measure imposing on the general public going about their day to day business is going to be a vote-loser. Additional security checks at airports most people can stomach as it’s only when they fly, but this scheme affects day to day stuff.
I expect it to be pushed back past the election, make the Tories responsible and then attack them whichever way they go.
44 Sounds fair enough.
43 Personal liberty can become an important electoral issue, once it affects enough people, but not otherwise.
43. I think a smaller number of people react to the phrase “civil liberties” than react to words like freedom and totalitarian etc. Civil liberties sounds too abstract.
44. Exactly my point. The “ex” marxists of ZNL deliberately muddy the difference between a prison and a fortress to advance their instinctively totalitarian agenda.
They don’t have strict border controls for non-citizens - the fortress bit, but they do want to try and track every footstep of the citizens - the prison bit.
46. Fair enough.
31. LS
But the Scottish Ipsos-MORI poll was taken at the height of the BBC Megrahi bullshit. That is just a plain statement of fact.
Indeed, it makes the findings - showing strong support for the SNP - even more remarkable.
Punter will like this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/15/wales-tories-cameron-labour
On topic, Jenni Russell in the Guardian gives the Tories a rare thumbs-up:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/sep/15/contactpoint-child-databases
51 “once it affects enough people”
But if you go out anywhere with more than half a dozen houses, your personal liberty is infringed - you are tracked everywhere on CCTV, your credit card and bank transactions monitored, your mobile phone tags your movements, your grocery preferences are recorded, your library books monitored. There is no box to tick to opt out of that. Stay at home and you might not have your personal liberty impacted - as long as you don’t make a phone call, have cable TV or log onto the net.
It is now impossible to be a “private” person these days, short of paying with cash whilst living on a croft on Lewis. The British are by our nature, a very reserved and private people. We like to build walls - moats even - and invite the world in on our terms. And I think many, many people are hacked off with the way that privacy has been taken away.
I think there will always be at least a substantial minority who want a smaller government, but I do agree that right now Labour (the tax and spend party, after all) can’t win if it’s about making the state smaller. That’s why the positioning is bad.
Labour won’t get approval from big state leftish dinosaurs because they’re cutting the size of the state. They won’t get approval from centrists because they aren’t taking the deficit seriously. They won’t get approval from small staters because they’re making minor proposals (for now at least) and making it quite clear it’s reluctant and that when we have growth (sustained growth, admittedly unlikely to happen under Labour) they’ll probably revert to spending money left, right and centre.
Plus Brown’s epic climbdown showed he was either lying in the prior months or his judgement was atrocious.
LOL(literally) at the 8% who thought that the State has too little a say in what people can or cannot do.
I won’t be popping round theirs for tea.
Yes, civil liberties matter to some voters who might otherwise vote Labour.
Gordon Brown presumably calculates that tough on crime will win more votes than it loses (cf Edward in Tokyo @ 13) especially if there is a terrorist outrage near the election.
If Labour replaces its leader with someone who takes the opposite view, these voters may come back.
Civil liberties ought to be Clegg’s big issue for the LibDems but isn’t. The Conservatives lead on this issue, though are no longer making the running since David Davis disappeared up his own by-election.
So in betting terms, it makes no difference unless Brown stands down, or Clegg remembers what his party is called.
So, we have a Politics Home poll that proves that Labour supporters are fascists.
It’s nice to have confirmed what we all suspected.
60 John L
Perhaps there’s a cunning plan by Cameron to bring back Davis into an anti surviellance role after the GE.
I think Chris Strange agt 43 is right that it’s in effect a leading question. If you ask, “Should the state have more power to crack down on people who behave badly?” you’ll get a similarly lopsided result the other way. It’s actually an area which it’s qujite hard to put neutral questions about.
Mystified by the personal jibe at me at the end of the last thread - why does svejk purport to know what languages I speak? And who cares anyway? - I was just replying to a friendly note from Martin Day. Some of you are too easily annoyed by my mere existence.
54. Stuart Dickson.
“The height” lasted twelve days?
Laughable. Truly absurd.
What I would like to see is some Scottish polling to try and probe into whether these new SNP voters are actually SNP supporters or just voting for the strongest challenger to Labour. It’s possible that the Megrahi furore was good politics[*] in that it sent a message to Scots that “there is someone other than Labour you can vote for” and hence enabling some Scots to experience their Brown epiphany.
[*] As opposed to good governance, but that particular issue’s been rehearsed to death here.
But it’s interesting to compare the state of the polls in August/September 2008 and August/September 2009:
2008: SNP 35, Lab 31, C 18, LD 13
2009: SNP 35, Lab 28, C 17, LD 14
(2008: YouGov 8/8 and 5/9; 2009: Ipsos-MORI 31/8 and 2/9)
57 MM
Just think we here on pb are all on an MI5 database somewhere
Proof, if any were needed, that Labour supporters really are authoritarian.
And Polly wants them to have an electoral pact with the *Liberals*
If you look at the three components of the Labour coalition (WWC, Guardianista, ethnic) then broadly: the WWC don’t really care about civil liberties and are probably in favour of increased authoritarianism, Guardianistas are probably outraged by Labour’s approach, and ethnic minorities who are direct migrants are often used to even more outlandish practices, and may accept it as a price worth paying.
Once again Labour has come up against the limits of its own coalition, who actively hate each other.
I see Jack Straw will debate with Nick Griffin on the BBC.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-minister-to-faced-griffin-in-tv-debate-1787967.htm
29. ‘Cuts’ cast:
McCavity = Gordon Brown.
**** BETTING POST ****
Only slightly off topic, but I have today Backed Gordon Brown to stay at the helm and lead Labour into the next GE.
Here are my reasons.
1.There has been an avalanche of spin saying the opposite and the odds did move,but not as much as they should have.
1A.’Cameron Only’ or A.N.Other Next PM (not Cameron) are such easy options,I would always have thought they are more popular than they are. Apart from a short burst of AJ love there has been little interest in the Labour candidates.
2.I have been off the plot for a long time and hadn’t seen GB in the flesh for ages.
Yesterday at the TU Congress he didn’t look or sound to me like a man with immediate plans to quit……and yet The Usual Suspects were out in force saying the opposite.
I disagree with them at least for today !
31. LS - “I don’t believe the fieldwork dates were available before”
Wrong again. They were available - eg. the SNP press release on the poll had them. That was why I knew that the fieldwork had been conducted at the height of the BBC Bullshit furore.
68 - There is a typo in the url, which should be:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-minister-to-face-griffin-in-tv-debate-1787967.html
I do not understand why so many Labour politicians have been so reluctant to take the BNP head on. If you truly believe (as I do) that the BNP’s policies are incoherent rubbish as well as being noxious, you should want to rip them apart so that would-be BNP voters realise this. There has to be some point where empty-chairing has to be abandoned and the BNP’s securing of two EU Parliament seats seems to be the logical point to me.
If as other posters implied the ISA was set up by a Statutory Instrument without a degree of scrutiny one wonders what Nick Clegg, and others were playing at.
“The power of the state, has increased, is increasing and ought to be diminshed.” Discuss.
I would like to know if other European states have followed this government’s lead on the ISA, setting up a complex database in the name of child protection.
Tim September 16th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Or alternatively…
Do you believe the state should track you when you go on holiday?
No
Do you believe in strict border controls FOR NON-RESIDENTS?
Yes.
Do you believe in strict border controls FOR RESIDENTS?
No.
74
That’s racist
“I am sorry about the small children we killed, by smashing them against tree stumps and so forth” - comrade duch speaking today at the Khmer rouge trials.
@63:
How would you ask “do you think everybody in the country should be treated like a paedo until proven innocent at their own, substantial expense?” in a neutral way, Mr Palmer?
34. mirthios
So, is the likely dissolution of the United Kingdom a trivial matter?
If you really, really believe that, then do not be surprised when the Union is consigned to the dustbin of history.
There is nothing the SNP likes better than Unionists who stick their heads in the sand. Have a nice day!
Back on topic, the situation is more acute for those who involved in the running of a business and have staff.
We have seen an avalanche of legislation directed around employment law, and non employment related legislation, under the guise of health and safety.
It was only a matter of time that this desire to meddle in commerce would spill over into meddling in peoples private life.
65 Back in 1968 I wrote off to the Chinese Embassy for a copy of the Little Red Book. “The Authorities” contacted my Headmaster who called me into his study to find out why (presumably they were terrified that a third former was planning Revolution) - easy answer was that we were all writing to embassies to get free stuff to help in projects and free books were always attractive, but I was amazed then that the “Authorities” were opening my mail (and not forwarding it as I never got the book!). Still rankles after four decades.
The average citizen doesn’t get het up about civil liberties unless they impinge on his way of life, so the ISA which directly affects 1 in 4 adults and indirectly the other 3 or to lesser extent databases like ContactPoint which gathers a huge amount of data on kids matter. This Government loves technology, Tony Blair might not have known how to do email or text but he lapped up presentations on how crime, benefits etc could be better targeted with investment. This has moved beyond an aid into an imposition and enough people are affected to make it unpopular.
Morning All,
I doubt it will be the big issue but it will be a significant underlying theme and one which the Conservatives have successfully ensured that the Libdems will not be able to monopolise. Through the likes of David Davis (and in fact Cameron and others) sufficient Conservative Civil Liberties profile has been provided to ensure the Libdems cannot gain significant advantage.
Grayling is a fly in the ointment but I’m not convinced that he will ever be Home Secretary and if he is then I don’t think he will last that long there. I think his talents will be used elsewhere.
60. John L
since David Davis disappeared up his own by-election.
Funny how Davis has more print coverage in the media than just about any other Conservative backbencher (although IDS is a close second). Didn’t Davis team up with Chris Huhne and a Labour backbencher recently on something (now there are so many Government databases one cannot distinguish between them)? . I wouldn’t write him off in such a manner as above if I were you…..
He is the Conservative outrider on Civil Liberties, just as Carswell is on democracy, Redwood is on business and economy and IDS is on Social Justice. As such he has not and will not disappear anywhere and having him in the party (he is a bigger beast than anyone in the Libdems cept maybe Cable currently) ensures the Libdems cannot get individual traction on the civil liberties issue.
76. That’s those nice fluffy lefties for you!
63 - Of course, Labour’s core voters now are Royle family-style dole scroungers with very fascistic and authoritarian views (except towards layabout dole scrounghers!)
@78:
Trivial for England, obviously, for whom the ill-conceived departure of Scotland into irrelevant poverty will barely register.
The bankrupt third world backwater that is the Kingdom of Scotland probably won’t find it so trivial when England has to bail them out AGAIN, mind.
76 SeanT, are you writing a piece about it for any of the broadsheets?
This Guardian article is worth a thread Mike.
http://tinyurl.com/lsq7sy
“Wales: a land lost to Labour” Martin Kettle.
“Labour was down to 32%. In this year’s European elections, it slumped even further to 20%. Now a detailed YouGov regional opinion poll analysis by the Electoral Calculus website suggests Labour could be on course to hit 26% in Wales in a general election, trailing second to the Conservatives, on 30%, for the first time in the democratic era. Labour in Wales would go from 29 MPs to 14, the Tories would surge from their current three to 18, leaving the Lib Dems two, Plaid Cymru five and others one.”
Just like Scotland, a Labour heartland to be cut by 50% at the GE.
October election prices haave been hit.
back to 1.05 0n Betfair now.
65 “Just think we here on pb are all on an MI5 database somewhere”
What a fun job that must be - monitoring us lot!
Morning, spooks. I wonder if they follow up on any of the betting tips on here? And don’t be shy to let us no if a hidden mic reveals the date of the election!
64. LS - “… it sent a message to Scots that “there is someone other than Labour you can vote for” and hence enabling some Scots to experience their Brown epiphany.
Ha ha.
Yet another example of how folk outwith Scotland totally misunderstand Scottish current affairs. Do you really think that the SNP has a “low-profile” problem in Scotland?!? We are in government you know.
Chris Grayling is targeting criminals, this government’s legislation has ended up being perceived as targeting and hitting the law abiding public. That is the difference.
I couldn’t believe it when I heard that they were proposing this daft legislation. Its totally impractical, and would cause massive upheaval and discourage parents from helping each other out. I already have to be disclosed to help at my local school and with a youth club scheme in the evenings, which on the whole I accept is perfectly reasonable. But even then, you must apply seperately and go through the same process for every area you work in.
But to then have to be checked again if you want transport your children and their friends from A to B is ridiculous. Living in a rural area, we all rely on that kind of co-operation on a daily basis.
71. Stuart Dickson: They were available - eg. the SNP press release on the poll had them
OK. I couldn’t find them by Googling.
the BBC Bullshit furore.
Now on the Green Ink List.
Back to main article. The key is that the anti-liberty policies of the Govt has alienated the chattering classes and lost Labour support in the media channels that they dominate such as the BBC, Guardian, Independent and Times.
The Sun, Telegraph and the Mail have not fallen fully behind these oppressive policies to the extent that Labour presumably expected.
Labour are the “Billy no mates” in the media.
88 “let us no” –> “let us know”
Wooooo - damn computer posting on its own now…
89. Stuart Dickson: Do you really think that the SNP has a “low-profile” problem in Scotland?!?
I think that politics in general probably has a “low-profile” problem.
@90
Alert! ChristinaD is a paedophile sympathizer!
I’m reporting her to my friendly local neighbourhood Labour ubergruppenfuhrer.
@92:
I think Labour seemed to underestimate the intelligence of the WWC. Despite what Labour may think, hardly anybody wants governments to aggressively oppress their civil liberties just for the sake of it.
What most people want is for the government to be efficient at tackling crime and controlling immigration whilst leaving law-abiding citizens and legitimate migrants alone to go about their business unhindered.
95 “I’m reporting her to my friendly local neighbourhood Labour ubergruppenfuhrer.”
Sadly, I could believe that. Well, except the “friendly” bit…
@94:
I think that Scotland has a low profile in grounded reality.
86. It looks like the Conservatives could be getting a large majority simply through Labour’s vote being eaten by the nationalist parties in their former heartlands, even without the 40+% of the vote the polls say them will get themselves!
90 I was talking to someone who helps out across a number of activities (Youth Club, Rugby, Secondary School sports, Boy Scouts) and his biggest gripe was having to be cleared separately for each, with inevitable delays and cost every time. Struck me that the process suggested for ISA could be usefully adopted for CRB - single individual registration.
100. but then they would only be able to dip into his wallet once rather than four times so the Civic-mindedness Tax would raise much less money to keep the civil servants in their jobs.
@101:
I think it needs a better name. We should call it Gordon’s Nonce Ponce.
101, it does seem odd to me that instead of considering what the nation should spend and then raising the sum in taxation we seem to live in a world where as much as possible is taxed (directly or indirectly) and then the Government spends as much as it can, exceeding even the total of taxation every year, and then borrows even more.
We need a smaller state.
72 “I do not understand why so many Labour politicians have been so reluctant to take the BNP head on.”
Because they’ve been lying through their teeth for twelve years and have no arguments. They can get away with things like calling the housing crisis a “pinch point” in front of the usual QT audience but if they tried it in the areas effected they’d be howled down.
The only protection they’ve got from the BNP is the traditional Labour ultra-loyalty, threatening people’s jobs if they switch and shouting “racist” very loud, as that shuts most people up unless they’re desperate.
There is a story in the DT which isn’t really civil liberties but does show the intrusive state.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/6195021/Owners-of-uninsured-cars-face-new-fines-under-new-Government-curbs.html
Now that the DVLC is linked to database of insurers the state can use their enhanced data intelligence to create new crimes - you are presumed guilty unless you go through the SORN process (which is itself born out of existence of database and need to keep this updated). The crimes of driving while uninsured and untaxed have been changed to a requirement on registered keepers to tell the state when a vehicle is not in use, no longer just a crime of using the vehicle but now its been widened so that even if you don’t use it unless you advise the State you are a criminal.
Answer to question: Yes I hope so! However, I think the main issue for the average person with the vetting scheme is not the erosion of liberties but the absurdity of the procedure,particularly the aspect of having to reapply if I today I wish to help with the local school play, and then reapply tomorrow if I want to help with the local church sunday school. Only labour could introduce such a bureaucratic (can’t spell that!) nightmare. Still I suppose it keeps a few more public sector workers busy!
100.Ted, absolutely correct. That is my gripe as well, a single individual registration system would be better, and much safer IMHO.
95.Martin, did you see the Matt cartoon that someone posted a couple of threads ago?
92
There are moans about the Government’s anti-paedophile database… But we can’t have it both ways. Whenever children are victims of people who should never have been allowed near them, the country demands action. Now we have it… Surely the life of a child is worth a little inconvenience?” - Sun editorial 12th Sept.
Not totally true.
103 “We need a smaller state.”
Cue the Nits: “It’ll be much smaller state - when Scotland takes away its 31510 sq. miles…”
@109:
Then again, the average Sun reader doesn’t particularly want to be treated like a paedo, which is what the government is proposing.
The guilty-until-proven-wealthy approach is the particularly galling aspect of the proposal.
Dickson - 78 - “34. mirthios So, is the likely dissolution of the United Kingdom a trivial matter? If you really, really believe that, then do not be surprised when the Union is consigned to the dustbin of history.”
Are you talking to me? Can you point to a single post of mine which tells you - or anyone else - what I think about independence for Scotland? I have a view (having lived and worked there for several years) but I don’t think it is necessary to post it in a thread about British fascism.
If you ran - and paid for - your own site, I might (just might) visit it from time to time to read your rants and respond to them - if I, for one moment, could give a twopenny toss.
@108:
I did not. Could you pea roast?
105 Driving a car will soon be like flying a plane; but rather than filing a flight plan, you’ll have to get clearance from the “Roads Tsar” to nip down the shops…
New Labour: sucking the fun out of life since 1997…
90 - I understood that the ISA removes the need for separate checks and new checks when someone moves jobs.
@115:
So, as long as you pre-register and have paid your nonce ponce, you can then rummage as many kids’ pants as you like, for one low monthly repayment.
80. Ted - I had a copy of the “Thoughts of Chairman Mao” when I was young. I recall having a copy in the pocket of my cricket flannels when playing a game against Windsor Victoria CC on the playing fields overlooked by Windsor Castle. I had a good day with the bat and I was in the 80s looking st the prospect of a ton I received a short quick ball on the leg side which struck the little red book and was caught by by the wicket keeper. There was an appeal and I was given out caught much to the amusement of my unsympathetic team mates.
Was anyone listening to the Today programme this morning, Apparently a meeting last night at the TUC conference allegedly ended up according to Naughtie in fisticuffs.
It set me thinking about the relevance of the TUC congress. Is there any point to it any more?
First they discussed the mind blowing subject of high heels in the workplace, then a motion to stop people buying goods from Israel. WFT is that all about> I thought unions were meant to be there for their members?
Who are the 8% who believe that the state now has “too little of a say” in what we can or cannot do?
I really want to know. Tim are you in the 8%?
I really want to know who these people are so I can go after them with my electric cattle prod!
Gordon: he lied about cuts….
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8258320.stm
…says not disinterested man!
@118:
Presumably the argument was over who had the flattest shoes, or who hated Jews the most.
What a ball the TUC conference must be.
Surprised Mike didn’t lead on this aspect of the Populus poll: Vince Cable most trusted politician, even Tory voters trust him more than they do Osborne, can’t see why!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/peter_riddell/article6836069.ece
i imagine the bnp want to debate their manifesto points outwith immigration, they are after all not a single issue party.
these issues are not even touched upon by the MSM.
the concern for the labour party after their own crazy policies of the last few years may be that some of the economic approaches suggested by the BNP may resonate with working class labour voters.
if these points have support and an audience find out what they are, then their simplistic racist agenda may be something some people can accept and live with.
it also sticks two fingers up to people who say they cannot be allowed to think for themselves and imply in FPTP they must vote for one of a few nominated parties, all of whom probably fail to inspire joe public these days.
as many people feel it does not mater who wins, a protest vote has more validity and is not seen per se as a waste.
115 tim, ISA may remove the need if the organisation decides to trust the earlier search. However “advice” from the “experts” will be to “have a new search just to be sure”.
PS How can regular contact be defined by a twice a month driving of some of the football team?
Huntley was missed not by a volunteer organisation but by taxpayer paid public servants in the Education and Police departments. Yet it is the volunteers that are being hit by this “Huntley law”.
122 - Simple Coldstone, if who was best trusted to run the economy was how people voted, John Major and the Tories would have won in 1997.
As this has turned into another thread about Scotland I thought I’d better add some important information:
I have just discovered that I have a blister on my big toe (right foot).
Does this make an October 22nd election more likely…?
@122:
It’s all to do with Vince’s nostrils. They’re very reassuring.
113.Telegraph - Matt
114- And making peoples lives more complicated. Of course the *real* criminals will be unafected by this as they will still drive uninsured cars anyway. Memo to New Labour: Stop making new laws for the sake of making new laws!
115 The ISA is supplementary to not a replacement for CRB checks.
ACPO makes good and profitable revenue for CRB checks for US visas - reportedly actual cost is 50p, charge is £64. Police Commissioners like that - they can employ more ex policemen to put forward more new laws.
I’ve really noticed over the last 10 yrs and massive increase in state led processes that require me to opt out - SORN is a good example, this car insurance scam is a money making control exercise.
What happens to those like me who couldn’t tax or insure her car because it failed the MOT and I didn’t have £700 to fix it. Because of the lag between being off the road I’ve now been fined another £50 for having no tax, despite the fact that it was parked off the road.
If I had to fill in a form to say I couldn’t insure it until I could pay for the repairs, I presume that’d be another fine.
Same with the reams of business regulations, most of the red tape variety expecting me to complete a homeworker safety assessment on some else’s spare bedroom where they keep their PC and are 200 miles away [because that's why they're a homeworker].
It has been endless.
The bin-microchips caused a massive fuss in the same way that the ISA database has - same reason, intrusion for no sensible or proportionate reason.
37,41.
Mike If the Lib dems were to lose half of their seats( and I don’t think they will) then if I were Vince Cable I would throw my hat in the ring for the leadership.
The Tory parliament of 2010 -2014 will be a huge opprtunity for the Lib dems with Labour in dissaray and a very unpopular Tory Government.
130
Ah yes, ACPO, a very new labour organisation.
103. What is also bizarre is the behaviour of Gordon Brown in the very initial good times. He kept to the Conservative spending plans, probably better then the Tories had ever intended to, but carried on raising huge amounts of taxation through various stealthy means. So, despite a massive surplus, every budget he kept banging up taxes.
86. That Welsh analysis is remarkable - an earthquake if anything like true. Combined with an SNP surge in Scotland and a massive wipeout in English marginals, a 1931-style result for Labour really does look possible.
Who would ever have thought Brown might do worse than Foot?
123- while it is obviously great for the LD’s that Cable is so popular, I think it may also highlight a problem for them. He is viewed as not being partisan, as being above the fray, when he is in fact a front bench spokesman for a party that claims it can win power. The perceived impartiality of Cable may be an indication that the public don’t take the LD party seriously as a party of government, something that will really hurt them in elections like 1992 and 2010(?) when the government of the country is really at stake.
102. Gordon’s Nonce Ponce implies that there might actually be a significant risk that it is trying to protect against when the actual numbers are tiny, and include things like pairs of 15 year olds or adults looking at pictures of other adults. A more acurate, and snappier than my first attempt, name would be something like the ‘Volunteer Tax’ maybe.
132. ACPO is the very kind of Quango we should all be worried about, it sets policy without democratic accountability. I hope, if we do have a bonfire of the quangos, that this, and the Audit Commission are on the top of the list.
118 “I thought unions were meant to be there for their members?”
Same problem as the Labour party - only a small percentage of people get actively involved which means they get dominated by a mixture of chancers and people with an ideological axe to grind.
134 “Who would ever have thought Brown might do worse than Foot?”
Well, I’d have signed that petition… The signs were all there.
118.MTF, you always get impression that the egos in the TUC end up having an annual fisticuffs at their conference. I wonder if this rammy involved a particular Union…?
I couldn’t believe it when I read that Nadine was mentioned in dispatches for having the temerity to stand up for her right to stick on a pair of killer heels at her work. What next, shop stewards proposing that we legislate for the right to ban a sense of humour in the work place because we might fall over laughing?
105. Ted.
I’m afraid that’s old news as the SORN requirement came in at the start of 1998 and a £1,000 fine was applicable then and as far as I am aware there have been links between the DVLA and innsurance companies since pretty much that date (I used to work for an insurance company in IT not long after and they had a link). Once again the Barclaygraph is dredging up old news to fill its pages (virtual or not). It’s an utter non-story.
http://www.selnec.org.uk/sorn.htm
137. Correct. ACPO is a sinister organisation and should be wound up forthwith.
123. Yes, a breakdown of bnp policies outside of immigration race and religion, are maybe uncomfortably close to the 1983 labour party manifesto. They read as reactionary socialists.
122.James Forsyth - Cable’s cuts
“Imagine for a second if Alistair Darling or George Osborne wrote a pamphlet about spending cuts which contained plans which were not yet party policy. The press would go into overdrive. Journalists would demand to know if Gordon Brown or David Cameron agreed with their numbers man. If there was no instant answer, splits stories would lead the news. The whole thing would be considered a disaster. But when Vince Cable does it, it is not a problem. Bagehot, The Economist’s respected political columnist, writes admiringly of Cable’s pamphlet for Reform before saying, “It isn’t all Liberal Democratic policy yet, but much of it is likely to be.”
I think this latitude that Cable is given is one of the reasons he has become regarded as such an authority and a clear communicator, the media gives him space to think. But one can’t imagine Cable being given such an easy ride if he was in one of the two major parties.
One can argue that political debate in this country would be healthier if the media allowed Tory and Labour politicians to think aloud as well. But it is hard to disagree with what Alastair Campbell wrote in a perceptive post about Cable’s popularity, “his biggest advantages are that he is not in government, and he is not a Tory.””
That pesky Whitehall leaker is at it again
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/09/the-spending-review-that-dare-not-speak-its-name.html
119 -You decide
I believe in the decriminalisation of all drugs, but believe kids going school must be vaccinated and have a school dinner.
125
I think most people believed George Soros had, ’saved’ the British economy, not the government.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5334871/europe-rears-its-head-once-again-for-the-tories.thtml
Europe back in the frame?
Claimant count up by 24,400.
ILO unemployment up by 210k to 2.47m.
147 A rare day - I agree.
129.”Memo to New Labour: Stop making new laws for the sake of making new laws!”
And stop trying to avoid having them debated and scrutinised thoroughly in Westminster, it would save your blushes later when they come back to bite you and us on the behookie. Has any government brought in so many crap bits of legislation in living memory?
151 I recall my accountant saying that in the last 12yrs the tax rules handbook had gone from about 1″ to 9″ thick.
The complexity of SA is merely a by-product of it.
119. You meet them canvassing, you meet them on blogs, you meet them on comments pages on local newspapers (the latter one is most extraordinary, its like opening up a cess pitt and finding it overflowing with idiotic opinions).
To understand Liberty requires someone to have an enlightened mind. It is to much for some people to realise that your freedom to protest, speak, express yourself, defend yourself, is dependent on other people also having that freedom. That the freedom to carry out an act is infinitely greater then the right to not be offended. That innocent until proven guilty, isnt a glib statement that allows criminals to ‘get off with it’.
Unemployment (ILO measure) up to highest level since 1995. Up 210k in the 3 months to July.
Claimant count up 25k in August as well, and pay growth down to just 1.7%. Not much feel-good factor here.
126 - Fluffy - the fact that it is on your right foot, rather then the left, is far more relevant to the thread than Dickson’s arrogant rants.
151- working in corporate tax we use Tolley’s yellow books (containing tax legislation), I’m told we’ve gone from two books to five in the same period
98. You trying to be the new TIM , minus the humour.
Labour, authoritarian - nah…
“Blair’s Laws: New Labour’s Obsession with Creating Criminal Offences
Cooper, John (Barrister);
Classification: Criminal Law;
Book Description
Since the Labour Government came to power in 1997 they have created over 3,000 new criminal offences, a new offence for almost every day they have been in office. From the detention of terrorist suspects without trial to ASBOs, parenting orders to race crimes, the Government’s legislation has touched thousands of lives across the whole of British society. This unprecedented level of law-making has been consistently criticised as knee-jerk and counter-productive, not least by the police and judges charged with its enforcement. Why has the obsession with law-making developed? How effective has it really been? This book, written by a leading criminal barrister, is the first to examine the whole raft of criminal legislation under Blair and assess its impact on our justice system.
http://www.hammickslegal.co.uk/shop/product_display.asp?AssocID=5&ProductID=9780199232413
156 Tim has humour?
86 / 134. That analysis is also highly methodologically dubious. Not impossible, true, but we need better figures to go on. For a start, it isn’t clear, but is it based on regional sub-samples? If so, the margin of error is huge. Also, running figures through Electoral Calculus. Please, even if you agree with their broad approach, they don’t really ‘do’ Wales and Scotland. They assume no swing whatsoever for PC - exactly the same % vote as in 2005. So even in a Labour collapse, they’re down as holding Llanelli.
There are rumours that YouGov will start polling Wales properly soon. Hope so. The methodology will need time to work out, but we’ve got to start somewhere. For years we’ve had to make do with Beaufort (sometimes commissioned by PC), who are a decent market research company but really just add on a political question to their general questionaires, plus occasional polls just before elections.
What’s really scary is that, if there’s any pattern in the eccentric world of Welsh polling, it’s that Labour’s support is generally overstated.
147.”today’s Times reports that Lord Tebbit has warned Cameron that he will cede ground to UKIP unless he provides the electorate with a “satisfactory assurance” that there will be a referendum regardless of the Irish result.”
Hmmm, I like the cheeky way that Lord Tebbit has worded his threat. So a few people reckon that their viewpoint on this issue, and threat to vote UKIP equates to providing the electorate with ’satisfactory assurances’!
I see that the Conservative leadership have got their priorities right. AFGHANISTAN.
153 - That can’t be true! Roger will be upset and warn you to keep silent. Unemployment can never, ever be allowed to be higher than it was munder the dreaded Tories.
160
So if the Conservative government’s priority is to be Afghanistan, do you expect, greater committment, of troops etc, (when the polls seem to indicate moste people favour withdrawal) and to pay for it, the cancellation of the Trident upgrade and the two aircraft carriers?
I see it now, ‘Admirals for a Labour victory’
Afghanistan may upset most people, but for the Tory right, Europe makes their blood boil.
whoops sorry 161
162- even if it does it will be “good” Labour unemployment, not “bad” Tory unemployment
I agree with Christina, Afghanistan has to be the main priority of an incoming Tory government, committing whatever resources neccessary.
151 - the original name of the SA system was Simple Assessment. That was soon dropped once the training started.
On the subject of muddle headed fascists, Jimmy Carter says Joe Wilson’s attack on Barack Obama was ‘based on racism’.
So it’s not racist to vote for the man simply because he is black, but it is racist to criticise him for being a liar.
Odd logic, that.
167. Carter…Obama…the fateful convergence continues…
Watching whatsisname Knight on the news, I’ve realised that the phrase “It is right to…” actually causes me physical pain when it’s used by a politician.
Only trumped by it’s even more insidious brother, “Actually, I think it’s right to…” with that air of mock surprise at the stupidity of the questioner that Ed Balls specialises in.
Gah. Anger.
On topic: For most of us (hopefully!) the issue of civil liberties is important in principle, but doesn’t necessarily impinge directly on our lives. Personally, I have been extremely indignant about Labour’s attacks on traditional civil liberties on issues such as 90- and 42-day detention, the disgraceful US extradition treaty, control orders, etc. But those are all things which, though I feel strongly about them, happen to other people. This risk of any of this impinging on me personally is vanishingly small.
The same is true for most people; for the bulk of the electorate, who perhaps don’t think too deeply about these principles, or who still trust the UK authorities to use these powers proportionately and fairly, they are probably not big issues.
The ISA furore is a bit different. It is the fact that it will potentially affect so many people directly, albeit perhaps in a relatively minor way in most cases, which is so damaging politically. Branding a tiny number of other people as potential paedophiles or terrorist suspects is one thing; treating 11 million people as potential paedophile suspects, just because they are carrying out normal social activities and being helpful in their community or school, is quite another, and very bad politics.
It is a big mistake by a government which has got totally out of control and has lost any remnants of what was once a great British quality: common sense.
169 - Jim Knight looks a right numpty with that goatee.
Mike S according to the reports last night the radical cuts suggested by Cable in his new pamphlet were not agreed by Clegg or his colleagues.
Whatever you think of these proposals - and I think he is just being Flip Flop man again - Cable is the LibDem treasury spokesman and pamphlets like that should be party policy and agreed in advance.
It does look as if Cable sees Clegg as an optional extra.
marquee m, I honestly dunno. That was one of the more harrowing and distressing mornings of my life. Its nice to know our chancellor and indeed our own nick p were communists, around the time communists like duch were ordering babies to be smashed against trees.
172. Agree - Clegg seems more and more irrelevant.
168 runnymede. “Carter…Obama…the fateful convergence continues…”
What convergence ?? …. the comparison is risible, next it’ll be David Cameron and Michael Foot !!
And yet Dickson gets away scot free with abusing your hospitality every day to promote his own very, very small minority politics.
Stop it!
by mirthios
Aww diddums!!
[118] - You can also see how powerless the TUC are by the fact that Brown chose them as teh backdrop to first mention cuts. Precisely the people who you might expect would be most pissed off about it, but the safest place for Brown to talk about it.
This has happened to Unions before, of course, and the recent occupations in a few workplaces show that organised workers still have the potential wield power, but they are going to have to do so with little help from the Union bureaucracy.
I see GideO is planning a budget to drive Britain into recession.
:-(
is he perhaps trying to compete with the Chammyroen hairline?
Mussolini never set out to be Authoritarian - it wasn’t an end, it was the means to an end.
He set out to change his country and revive ‘the Glory that was Rome’ by harnessing the State and Private Enterprise in a policy referred to as ‘The Third Way’, thereby giving rise to what we call ‘The Corporate State’.
As people are a contrary lot, compulsion was the easiest method to for Mussolini to get his way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini
‘It’s an education!’
165
If the Conservatives give more support to Afghanistan - and it drags over until 2011, it will be reversed.
Afghanistan is a place for losers.. no winners there..
or is it going to be
“this time it’s different”#.. as everyone fails in Afghanistan.
# the policy of all losers.
The bankrupt third world backwater that is the Kingdom of Scotland probably won’t find it so trivial when England has to bail them out AGAIN, mind.”
You on the happy pills martin? You chancers dahn saath have been robbing us blind of our oil and other resources for generations to fund your lazy lager loutish ways. When these sources have been removed by us, you might have to get off your lazy arse and do some proper work for a change.
181. And people want to push the Nats off this site? And lose this kind of hilarious stuff? Has there been a collective sense of humour failure?
170 Common sense is over rated. The ISA case is just bad politics, plain and simple. The element of compulsion is the killer. There are more ways to crack a nut than making things obligatory in such a crass way.
If it was voluntary I suspect a club could make something of the fact that all their drivers are checked. And their public liability insurance might be cheaper if they were too. Of course if the decide not to take the checks, they might be held liable for any negligence.
People taking responsibility with tools provided by govt = better politics.
163.
“if the Conservative government’s priority is to be Afghanistan………”
Plunge Britain into a triple dip recession, throw millions onto the dole, deny them benefits, ship them out to Afghanistan in redundant container ships. Then use the ones who survive to re-stage ‘North West Frontier’ in reality mode, only with the pink guys charging the trains in their hundreds of thousands and getting mown down. Unemployment solved. Simples!!:-(
Scots Nats can be quite entertaining, every English zoo should have a pair.
181
I Me
“you (southerners) might have to get off your lazy arse and do some proper work for a change.”
Meanwhile the Glaswegians don’t work at all.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article3647272.ece
184 - Wage Slave, i take it you believe Tories eat babies?
Niall Paterson on Sky News desperately trying to discredit Iain Duncan-Smith’s announcements to simplify the benefits system and to increase the amount received by claimants to encourage them back to work.
Seems like a fantastic policy, everyone wins expect for the teams of administrators employed to administer the incredibly over complex current systems. And guess what? Labour oppose it.
Example #2500000 of why Brown is heading for wipeout.
184
wage slave
Brilliant (better than the Nits anyday)
Gordon Brown presumably calculates that tough on crime will win more votes than it loses
by John L September 16th, 2009 at 8:19 am
The problem surely is that he is not perceived as ‘tough on crime’. Prisoners serving less than half their sentences to be let out because of overcrowding, ‘alternatives’ to custodial sentences which look like the soft option, the release of foreign prisoners who stay and don’t go, deportees who come back with no problem at all, ASBOs as a yobbo badge of honour, teenage not-quite policemen, crime figures which don’t match public perception generally and confirm that violent crime is increasing, the millstone of a badly drafted and hastily passed HRA.
There are lots of reasons why so much of the public will no longer buy the ‘tough on crime’ message. There is nothing much the government can do over the next six months about that.
175 – Jack W, while you are up ‘n’ about and vaguely corpus mentis, have you heard of a chap called Nick Clegg?
Was wondering as I’ve never heard you mention him… or his policies.
187 Doesn’t everyone? It’s a well known fact - bit like ‘no more boom and bust’
186. Well clearly they are either not ‘proper Scots’ or it is the fault of the English
Wednesday is Black Humour day apparently
193
It’s the English… the only “proper” Scots wear kilts and are incomprehensible.
191 SSC. What do want to know ??
190 I heard the most hilarious piece on R5 last night - the Jamaican equivalent of the Home Sec, says he doesn’t want the professional criminals that are being deported back from the UK [about 2 a month IIRC].
His argument was that as these Jamaican nationals were brought up here/got bad habits so it was the UK’s issue to deal with them, and they were bringing in expertise that locally grown crims didn’t have.
Interesting example of skilled workers coming home!
160 Meurig
That analysis is also highly methodologically dubious. Not impossible, true, but we need better figures to go on. For a start, it isn’t clear, but is it based on regional sub-samples? If so, the margin of error is huge
Far less so than you would like to think I suspect. The analysis was carried out on the Yougov/C4 poll for the Euro elections (which is now of course out of date) but The national sample was 32,000 and the Midland and Wales sample was 6903 weighted.
Now given the size of the regional sample, it is highly likely that the Welsh portion of that sample was larger than that of a standard national poll from the likes of ICM/Comres. Of course we can dismiss the validity all polls if you like?
The following provides the detailed information:
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/
http://www.yougov.co.uk/extranets/ygarchives/content/pdf/Megapoll_EuroElections.pdf
Now agreed there are some noteable caveats as Anthony Wells points out (see the articles below) but I wouldn’t dismiss the figures out of hand. They were very bad news for Labour!
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2245
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2243
194 *racist*
197. Nice example of what a laughing stock the UK has become on immigration matters.
Cameron press conference on now.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2009/sep/16/davidcameron-conservatives
144 “They read as reactionary socialists.”
Yup. They outflank New Labour on both the left and the right.
Cameron press conference also on BBC News 24.
180
It isn’t strictly true to say, that all military intervention in Afghanistan ends in failure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Afghan_War
The British were quite successful then.
The main problem for a the British (Anglo/Indian)army back in the 19th century was food, there just wasn’t enough, certainly to feed the thousands of horses and pack animals needed. Once winter arrived you had to get out, or starve.
197. shame on the Jamaican HS, not embracing the wonders of diversity.
Lots of IDS on News24 today, regarding unemployment and benefits. He should’ve run this social justice stuff years ago.
206. He did. He has been banging this drum ever since he was disposed as party leader. He speaks with a level of sincerity rarely afforded to a Tory.
The treasury mole is alive, well and leaking:
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/09/the-spending-review-that-dare-not-speak-its-name.html
Looks like Gordon has planned to secretly cut spending by just under 10%. More porkies from the man of courage.
207. Scary isn’t it - a politician who appears both serious and sincere. What on earth is he doing in the House of Commons?
Ouch - rewriting recent history exposed…
207. I saw him give a talk on it at my university back in 2006, and he got a genuinely sympathetic hearing from nearly everyone there. I’m optimistic that he’ll be able to make a real difference in government.
Oh more frivolous matters, Cameron’s hair appears to have become a rather nice chestnut brown today. I think he’s been on the Grecian 2000.
My daughter is a swimming instructor & teaches groups of kids in local Leisure Centres . These are in three different Local Authority areas ……..each of which has done a CRB check on her.All paid for by the local taxpayers.
204.
“Once winter arrived you had to get out, or starve.”
Nobody learn from Mr Bonaparte’s Russian Holiday?
211
Good spot!
206. He’s very good at it plus it’s another way to undermine Labour’s WWC vote without alienating liberal Tories.
208. There’s more where that came from, some of it nastier still.
206.”Lots of IDS on News24 today, regarding unemployment and benefits. He should’ve run this social justice stuff years ago.”
Saw on the Beeb a wee bit earlier, he was good. He is forging a much bigger and more meaningful legacy in the Conservative party with it than a brief spell as leader.
217 Nicely put.
217 Not hard though if we’re honest.
217 I was very impressed with him earlier on R5 - hope the Tories run with it without it turning into a Tories reintroduce workhouse silliness.
The English Defence League would certainly agree with the thread title.
A message to John Denham MP
Mr John Denham MP,
Sir,
Your description of the English Defence League as a “far right” and “Fascist” group is dishonest and Orwellian to say the least. Fascism is a political theory opposed to liberal democracy and is a close ideological relation of radical Islam.
The EDL exists precisely because extremist Muslim groups are being allowed to tour the UK unchallenged, corrupting the minds of young and impressionable people, undermining community cohesion and causing gratuitous offence to non Muslims.
The EDL is a direct product of the failure of government, and indeed of all political parties to seriously address the issue of Islamic extremism in the UK. Your comparison of the situation in Harrow yesterday (to which the EDL were not party) with the Black Shirts of Oswald Mosley is farcical, intended only to legitimise the violent response of Muslim and government sponsored counter demonstrators, and to demonise a group of people who feel that the actions of Anjem Choudary and his ilk must be opposed. Failure to do so will result in further alienation as these extremists are allowed to preach their hatred of the UK, our people and our way of life.
Labour face a political battle with the BNP that is totally removed from the aims and intentions of the EDL, however Labour should not let their fear of legitimate political debate degenerate into the sponsorship and direction of a violent street army like the UAF, who are being used as an alternative means of trying to win the argument. These methods are not far removed from those of Robert Mugabe. Their fight with the BNP is nothing to do with the EDL. We are a non racist and non discriminatory protest group who believe in an integrated and peaceful Britain with one law and one society, respected by all of its members.
The EDL will continue to peacefully protest and highlight the issue of unrestrained Islamic extremism in the UK, unless and until the government take concerted action against those who preach hatred and wish to harm the people of this country.
Regards,
The EDL.
As Shadow Social Security Secretary IDS exposed how crap Harriet Harman was, and forced Tony Blair to sack her.
Something Labour supporters should remember, in the next leadership election.
Guido - Come to Labour Conference Free!
On topic:
As we watch David Cameron apparently Dominic Grieve is outlining the Conservatives approach to Civil Liberties. It seems to me that it is not the Home Office who are masters of this domain in the eyes of the Conservatives and perhaps rightly so it is now the Justice Department.
Given the Home Office is about the most dysfunctional Government department there is it’s probably wise that they are being sidelined in such matters.
“This Government’s approach to our personal privacy is the worst of all worlds - intrusive, ineffective and enormously expensive. We cannot run government robotically. We cannot protect the public through automated systems. And we cannot eliminate the need for human judgment calls on risk, whether to children, or from criminal and terrorist threats.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/09/dominic-grieve-unveils-how-a-conservative-government-would-reversing-the-rise-of-the-surveillance-st.html
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/09/iain-duncan-smith-urges-a-radical-overhaul-of-the-benefits-system.html
Something they could add to that is seasonal work like fruit picking - make it so unemployed didn’t have to sign off and sign on again for stuff like that. I’ve not done it since the 80s but back then if you came off the dole for a short job you could end up waiting 6 weeks or even more when you came off it and signed on again so that put people off.
225. I wonder if we aren’t gradually edging toward the guaranteed minimum income idea a number of commentators suggested many years ago.
**** BETTING POST ****
O/T. Paddy Power have a market for RTE’s “The Greatest Irish Sportsperson Ever” poll in 2009.
Have a think who you think should win and what price you would back them at. Then look at the odds. If the person you think will win is there at bigger odds than you thought, it’s probably value.
I’m on!
Surprised? I’m not in the slightest, Labour just cannot stop themselves. Also this scheme will do nothing to stop paedophiles, but it will deter people from volunteering. Nor would it prevent another Soham unless teachers/school workers are going to have to get their partners vetted as well
227. stjohn.
Those odds do look generous, even though he represented Northern Ireland.
221 - I hope the person who reads Denham’s correspondence to him is not the same one who ties his tie.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5324466/john-denhams-mosleycomparison-merely-sensationalises-racetensions.thtml
223
Wonder if Walter Wolfgang is thinking of attending?
Wonder if Guido is thinking of a group of people wearing Walter Wolfgang masks attending?
227 - The greatest Irish sportsman ever (Dr Pat O’Callaghan - still the only Irish athlete to ever win 2 Olympic gold medals without taking drugs) isnt even in the list!
227. Paddy Power’s market is under Novelty bets.
It should be emphasised that the torture and murder of Baby P was not the result of a lack of information but a manifest human failure to take action on the information available.
227 - I’d imagine its between George Best and Vincent O Brien.
[217] - A few thoughts on the IDS proposals:
(i) - Combining benefits [eg working families tax credit and children's tax credit combined into tax credits] does not have a happy history. Maybe it could work, maybe not, but much depends on the details and the implementation. Although the intention might be to simplify things and reduce bureaucracy, the result could be the opposite. If it went wrong it would make the Tax Credits fiasco look inconsequential.
(ii) - The main thrust of the proposal - that benefits are withdrawn too quickly, imposing an excessively high marginal rate of taxation - is undoubtedly correct, and one that I agree with entirely. Fixing it, however, is expensive, or takes money from the poor to give to middle earners.
(iii) - There are details that have not been specified: What is a welfare to work scheme in this context, and how does it differ from current arrangements?
(iv) - The argument that the plan will eventually save money appears not to be well supported by evidence which could be verified were the proposals implemented. It’s very hard to measure. That doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
(v) - I fear that these proposals will be cherry-picked, whereas they have clearly been conceived as a whole. Those aspects which Cameron et al believe will save money will be used, and the other bits abandoned. Consequently the problem would remain.
#163, by coldstone September 16th, 2009 at 9:56 am
So if the Conservative government’s priority is to be Afghanistan, do you expect, greater committment, of troops etc, (when the polls seem to indicate moste people favour withdrawal) and to pay for it, the cancellation of the Trident upgrade and the two aircraft carriers?
Coldstone, me old muck-cleaner, should you not desist from military matters (of which you have some experience, but little knowledge). Your antithesis is this bloke.
Osbourne - :spit: - is not going to cancel Trident (or replacement thereof). As for the carriers, cutting costs and extending payments thereof can be undertaken by cancelling F-35B for F-35C. [The latter is cheaper, but is more manpower intensive.]
Typhoon tranche-3B may go, but only a fool will sanction the scrapping of the Eurofighter upgrade. A400M will be mortally wounded of France sells Rafale to Brazil in return for sales-promotion of the KC-390.
Oh God, why do I bother…!
PS. The link given gives a great reason to build a third CVF: HMS Ocean will not last forever! [The rest is extreme: the Darings, Albions and Bays are worth their weight! Maybe the next hospital-ship could be sponsored: RFA Argos to replace RFA Argus, so as not to confuse the scousers...!
]
226. Could be. Either way i think people like IDS and Field who are 49% old fashioned and 51% pragmatic are the kind of people who could get close to the best system if they get a chance.
Good press conference by Cameron but he said absolutely nothing new, and journalists are getting increasingly tetchy with the lack of further detail on spending cuts.
ACPO is worse than a quango, it is a company which provides very well paid jobs for ex-chief constables as well as other ranks. It is unaccountable except to the owners who, interestingly, are the unaccountable.
Fat salary and a pension to boot. Wish I was in that position.
It is a very new Labour ploy which is modeled on how they treat the MPs to keep them in line. Money in the pocket, gravy train, unaccountable and quiet.
ACPO is a gravy train, unaccountable, keeping the senior police on a hook and line. To understand how corrupt this has become listen to them campaigning for draconian control. That is mirrored by the line that the police must not ‘politicised’ they say, meaning there must be no democratic control, we must do things in the way we want not what the taxpayers’ want.
It must be abolished and the gravy train derailed, police chiefs elected and the Home Office take on the real coordination of police activity while moving the Scotland Yard elements which are not to do with London policing into a new unit covering the residue ACPO activities. Then let Boris and his successors get on with policing their own patch.
[221] - The EDL are a bunch of fascist thugs. Just as in the 1930s and the 1970s there is now a battle to prevent the fascists from controlling the streets.
239, understandable, but the Tories don’t have the full information because the Government won’t have a spending review they can use as a baseline and Brown won’t let the Tories see the books.
#183, by by Jonathan September 16th, 2009 at 10:19 am
People taking responsibility with tools provided by govt = better politics.
Ok kid, let the government tool-me-up with a GPMG and you with a benefit-card. Then we can have a fair assessment…!
[226] - I wonder if we aren’t gradually edging toward the guaranteed minimum income idea a number of commentators suggested many years ago.
I’m hazy on the details but I think the Green party have a policy for some sort of citizen’s income that migth be along the lines of what you are referring too.
[225] - I also wonder whether the bar on voluntary work would be lifted?
244 - Yup, I’ll happily email runny a link to sign up to the Green party now that he has finally come around to our way of thinking
243 A Kevlar benefit card might stop yourself shooting yourself in the foot with your GPMG if you stuck in your shoe Fluff.
Gordon Brown and his short term tactics just keep causing the government a series of self inflicted wounds. The dishonest slogans that seek to highlight his beloved dividing lines continue to come back to hit him hard like boomerangs.
‘the do nothing party’,
‘Tory cuts’ vs ‘Labour investment’
‘Mr 10% cuts’
Guardian - George Osborne claims Gordon Brown did not tell the truth about cuts
“Gordon Brown was today accused of “not telling the truth” by the Conservatives as they unveiled a leaked Treasury document showing that the government has been planning to cut departmental budgets by 9.3%.
George Osborne, the shadow chancellor, said that the internal Treasury paper showed that Brown was being dishonest when he criticised the Tories earlier this year for proposing spending cuts, declaring that Labour, in contrast, was planning to increase investment.”
“”This document demonstrates that the prime minister mislead the House of Commons when he told the House of Commons that the Conservatives were planning 10% cuts and that he was not, because he was near 10% cuts in departmental spending.”
After the budget earlier this year, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, and other economists who studied the small print of the Treasury’s long-term budget forecasts, said that in practice they would lead to most government departments facing budget cuts in real terms.
The Tories said that, if health and international development were excluded from the cuts, official figures suggested that other departments would face cuts of 10%.
Labour tried to exploit this politically by depicting this as a Tory spending policy. Brown branded David Cameron as “Mr 10%” and claimed that voters faced a choice between Labour investment and Tory cuts.
Today Osborne said the document that he had obtained showed that, at the time that debate was taking at prime minister’s questions in the Commons, Treasury officials were talking about departmental budgets being cut by 9.3%.”
This is politically devastating for Gordon Brown, and I cannot see how the government is going to be able to limp on with him in charge until the GE.
241. Hyperbole. The fascists weren’t in danger of ‘controlling the streets’ either in the 1930s or the 1970s.
241, that letter does raise some legitimate points though, which is why the BNP are doing so well lately. The protestors did not initiate violence, and the Muslims attacked both them and then the police yet escaped censure utterly.
What we saw was an anti-Muslim protest group be censured by a government minister for being attacked by Muslims. What next, a militant Muslim thug sueing a member of the EDL because he sprained his wrist punching the EDL chap in the face?
I don’t support the EDL, or their anti-Muslim stance but the reaction from the Government is sensationalist on the one hand and apologetic for the violent thugs from the mosque on the other.
I am fascinated by the rush of Tory announcements this week well before the conference.
And the screeching U-turn from Labour on cuts.
Wonder why?
227 - The value has to be Vincent O Brien at 8/1.
241. In several areas of our green land, the thugs on the streets certainly have something in common, but it is more like Islamofascism, then the EDL.
The EDL are like the BNP and the NF, they are a convenient vehicle to distract the populace from the behaviour of certain favoured groups. If the EDL didnt exist, the Government would need to invent them.
One has to admire Osborne’s timing on revealing the leaked Treasury plans for spending cuts:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6196411/Gordon-Brown-misled-Commons-over-spending-cuts-says-George-Osborne.html
Surely no coincidence that he pops up on the Today programme with this devasting attack the day after Brown finally utters the dreaded C word. I bet he has had the paper for a while.
253 I wonder what his line on Moles will be if he makes his way in to no11. He who lives by the sword, dies ….
We’ll also have to watch out for some suspicious promotions if he gets in.
254 Jonathan - I suspect his line on moles will be fairly relaxed. After all, the problem is not the leak, it’s Brown’s mis-speaks about his own government’s policies.
If Labour had been honest, there would be no problem.
251 - Tim, great as he was Vincent was retired before most people who will vote in this poll were even in secondary school. I really doubt he will win. I dont think there is any value to be had in this market because it is simply impossible to know how it will go. If I *had* to pick value I would go for Christy Ring, he will get a huge vote from Cork and is widely regarded as the greatest hurler ever and so will get a big vote from hurling fans too.
250 - Snap election? Given how much in charge of the debate Cameron is, I half expect him to go see the Queen, to seek a dissolution of Parliament in the next few weeks.
Ireland’s greatest sportsman bar-none! Cheers!
188. The thing that struck me about the Sky coverage was that it began (as lead story on the morning bulletin I saw) as “plans are announced. I assumed it would be some Government initiative but it turned out to be IDS’s report. The Conservative Party are the de facto Government.
239 Journalists tetchy more like pissed off.
If Cameron is so certain of winning, and voters are gagging for public sector cuts give us the details.
Is Gordo on his way to the States?
LONDON (Dow Jones)–Leaders of the U.K. opposition Conservative party accused Prime Minister Gordon Brown Wednesday of misleading lawmakers about spending plans, saying they have treasury documents showing the department plans spending cuts of nearly 10%.
Conservative leader David Cameron said the treasury documents, drawn up five months ago, showed the government planned cuts of nearly 10% in departmental spending in the four years from 2010 and was also planning cuts in capital expenditure from next year.
“They are not wrong to be planning cuts but they are wrong to try to cover up their plans,” Cameron said at a press conference.
Cameron said it seems as if Brown “was saying one thing in part while his government was planning to do something different.”
Earlier the Conservative treasury spokesman, George Osborne, told the BBC that the documents show “Gordon Brown was not telling the truth.”
“This is about Gordon Brown misleading the House of Commons, misleading the public,” he said.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090916-704089.html?mod=rss_Bonds
George Osborne calls Gordon Brown a liar and no-one blinks
Fascinating that the Shadow Chancellor has this morning accused the Prime Minister of lying and there isn’t a collective intake of breath. Do that in the House of Commons and even this Speaker will call you out. For one rt hon gentleman to challenge the integrity of another would once have provoked if not outrage then at least tut-tuts of disapproval. But here was George Osborne on the Today programme trumpeting his secret documents: “Gordon Brown has misled the public, he has misled the Commons, he was not telling the truth.”
And if there is no reaction, it is because we have collectively come to the same view, that the Prime Minister cannot be trusted to tell us the truth. How depressing.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100010118/george-osborne-calls-gordon-brown-a-liar-and-no-one-blinks/
244. 245. The main problem with a citizen’s income is deciding who is a citizen and who is not. Otherwise there is no limit to its cost. What is the Green Party’s definition of a ‘citizen’?
250
The Conservatives have siezed the initiative and are prodding Labour into making more mistakes or revealing more of their own plans.
262 Or that people have very low expectations of George Osborne.
250.”I am fascinated by the rush of Tory announcements this week well before the conference.”
This is a carefully planned strategy in the run up to the Conference season. And by virtue of being last, the Conservatives will not be given much publicity until their own one.
This leaked document has undermined Gordon Brown and his whole strategy for dealing with the Conservative over the last year.
265.Jonathan, that is really clutching at imaginary straws in the wind.
Guido joins in the fun…
http://order-order.com/2009/09/16/cuts-lies-and-videotape/
254- “I wonder what his line on Moles will be if he makes his way in to no11. He who lives by the sword, dies ….
We’ll also have to watch out for some suspicious promotions if he gets in.”
Do you mean like the treasury mole that worked for Gordon Brown in opposition? The same one who later became a Labour MP and was promoted to a post in the treasury by… Gordon Brown?
All parties use moles, it’s part of the game. Labour were stupid to kick up such a fuss over it. Can someone provide a link to the video of Brown boasting about his mole in an interview?
Perhaps NPMP would comment, in any one of his six languages, on the leaked Treasury document about Labour cuts and Brown’s lies. It would be helpful to have a relevant response from him for a change; I have no doubt that there are many visitors to the site quite capable of translating.
253.”I bet he has had the paper for a while.”
Richard, I bet you are right there.
269 Tories proud to be emulating Brown? Who’d have thunk it.
270 - Asking in such a nice and polite way is bound to make Nick want to be very helpful to you.
264. 266. Correct. Once again Cameron & Osborne show their political skills while Labour and their friends in the media are shown up as dullards.
It’s like watching Muhammed Ali take on some Friday-night drunken yob…
If Brown carries on until the next election, I think it’s increasingly likely that you can now see the next Leader of the Labour who is currently addressing the TUC and shown on the BBC Parliament channel.
265. “262 Or that people have very low expectations of George Osborne.”
No the article is correct, almost everybody thinks that Gordon Brown is a habitual liar.
272- Care to answer my question? Brown didn’t invent the idea, he wasn’t the worst, but it is base hypocrisy to complain about a mole working for the Tories when ignoring the fact that Brown did the exact same thing and then promoted the person who acted as his mole.
262
This isn’t politics, it’s a rout.
Labour ministers are left fighting, in isolated pockets, across the battlefield.
Nothing left but to put the dying out of their misery.
271.Richard, it also yet again reinforces the fact that Osborne is a very politically astute strategist. He was wise to hang onto that information if its been in his in tray for while. Let Gordon Brown help you highlight that you will have to cut public spending while he claimed his government would invest. Strung up and damaged by his own dividing lines, and then proved to be totally dishonest about it at a later date. Incredible.
274 - George Osborne = Muhammed Ali.
There aren’t enough drugs in the world to make that one work.
253.
Osborne is a tactically very clever !
275. Is he about 18 years old Henry?
275 - Correct.
Theres no worthwile markets though given the chance that Brown will go before.
280 Have you already asked your dealer friends in Manchester?
280- I’ve said before that elections should be decided by fighting. If nobody is up for gladitorial combat then a boxing match between David Davis and John Prescot would be awesome. We’d all save a lot of money and time. The round in which the knock out/victory is acheived would decide the majority. If it goes to ten rounds then you have a hung parliament. Simples.
275 - Would he run against his brother? He has an undeserved reputation for sounding like a normal person. Still, with Purnell having shot his bolt he would seem to be the least bad option for them.
275
Under those conditions, it’s likely that the next Labour Prime Minister is currently watching CBBC.
280 - Perhaps he meant Mohammed Ali as he is now, barely able to function…
Just flicked through the channels and Ed Milliband is making a very passionate speech without notes. Making a leadership play imo, ahead of his brother now I reckon.
289- I have a sneaking suspicion that Norman Tebbit would be ahead of David Milliband
275: I don’t have access to a tv…who are you talking about?
286. His brother is a busted flush, the bottling banana man.
In all seriousness.
George Osborne = Muhammed Ali in his prime
Alastair Darling = Muhammed Ali now
275, Ed Milipede may be better than his brother, but that’s like saying Agathocles was nicer than Tiberius.
Still think that Harriet Hatemen stands a good chance.
286. He wouldn’t. But I don’t think David has anywhere near as good a chance as him to win the leadership. If he had any sense he’d back Ed.
287. Ha. Very good.
288. I think even the great man in his current sad state would be more than a match for the stumbling idiots at the top of New Labour.
In Thailand, when u r caught riding or driving an non-insured vehicule, without a driving licence, u pay 200-400 bahts, 5-10 pounds to the policeman. I prefer a corrupted police than an intrusive state!
296 - I totally agree.
284 - I wouldn’t get dealing, drugs and Manchester into the same conversation as the Osbones if I were you.
293- I actually quite like Darling, or rather I would if he hadn’t been fiddling his expenses. He’s done a decent job of clearing up Brown’s mess at the treasury and stood up to Brown when neccessary.
295 How can Ed Milliband trump HH’s machine with all it’s links with the Unions etc?
Ah Ed Milliband.
Still, one of the best of a bad bunch. Although after the next election, Labour would be best placed by having nigh on a caretaker leader for a which who would be good in opposition whilst people were free to sort out the party under no pressure.
280 Gordon Brown = Audley Harrison
287 bono
I doubt if the next Labour PM is even a gleam in the eye yet
299. What are you suggesting Tim?
Think I’ll top up my Ed Milliband leader bets after that. The sort of thing the left enjoys.
299 Well done timmy.
George Osborne = Chris Eubank slightly odd.
301. Harriet Harman didn’t get a single union nomination in the deputy contest, so I think while she’ll not be easy to beat Ed Miliband will get a fair bit of union support. Certainly Derek Simpson from Unite thinks he’s a winner:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/politics/2009/09/ed-miliband-is-the-union-barons-favourite.html
301- you still haven’t answered my question, is it wrong for the Tories to use a mole in the treasury but ok for Labour to do the same? Should Brown be prosecuted?
Ed Miliband just comes across as school swot. Prime Minister? He’d keep getting his head dunked down the House of Commons loos…
The Tory leak is a disaster for the treasury
We have never seen this level of detail on a budget situation before.
Much of what was implied or left out of the budget is stated in astonishing detail here.
It is a total disaster for the treasury and the government, but some will argue the Tories have taken a big risk with financial confidence in publishing it.
The highlights immediately are the implied cuts, as we had reported on the very day of the budget.
The Social Security Budget is forecast by the treasury to reach £193bn, a staggering sum by 2013/14, and will represent nearly 12 per cent of GDP next year.
Debt interest payments will more than double to £63bn by 2013/14.
I referred to the “costs of failure” that Chancellor Brown used to calculate about the Tories in the late 1990s in an April blog post.
By this afternoon, I will be able to calculate the full cost of failure, as defined by Brown himself, of his own period as prime minister.
http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/2009/09/16/the-tory-leak-is-a-disaster-for-the-treasury/
279. Another consequence of releasing that leak now - it restricts the narrative that one would have expected at the Labour conference, much more difficult to construct any meaningful clear water between ‘Tory cuts’ and whatever-the-hell line Labour spinmeisters were planning. In fact, there might be some awkward questions come the debates on finance and budgetary planning - like “Why have you been lying to us?”
275.HenryG, just checked the BBC Parliament channel, and I thought that Ed Miliband might be speaking to the TUC.
303. That’s quite good! I did make a post a while back likening Peter Mandelson to a legendary boxing coach who took a young unknown (Blair) and turned him into Muhammad Ali, he is then asked to come out of retirement and do the same with Audley Harrison!
300 - Whilst I do agree that Darling has been a restraining influence on Brown and Balls.
His growth and PSBR forecasts have been a fantasy. Remember last november he predicted that the economy would contract by 1.25% in 2009 ad the PSBR for 2009/10 would be a 118bn. By April he changed his mind to 3.5% and said the PSBR would be £175bn.
As I put a while back, If only Darling has managed the economy as well as his propety portfolio.
Gordon Brown, you are a liar
Sue me!
311 - “We have never seen this level of detail on a budget situation before”
Erm, wasn’t Ken Clarke’s entire budget of 1996 leaked to to the press by a mole in the treasury.
Out of curiousity, who is the MP for Burnley, and what was her job before she became an MP?
274.
“It’s like watching Muhammed Ali take on some Friday-night drunken yob…”
More like OJ (and Homer) Simpson - but the effect is still the same.
Gordon Brown = The stitching in Ali’s glove….
In all seriousness if I was playing god in charge of labour now I would do the following:
1) Let Gordon take the blame for the current disaster and have him as leader to lance the boil
2) Harman to be the opposition leader for several years. She can speak well and as long as no elections could hold things steady. Let her run an election in 2014 or whenever with low expectations.
3) Meanwhile, behind the scenes and in public, sort out Labour itself. No quick fixes here, but it needs to decide who and what it is.
4) Reform completely, with someone like Ed Milliband as leader for 2018 or so. Might have a chance of winning that one.
As I said yesterday, the big outcome of the c*ts u turn is just to cement into public consciousness that Gordon Brown = liar.
315 - Isn’t Osborne a worse case than Darling?
http://www.libdems.org.uk/news_detail.aspx?title=Oakeshott%3A_George_Osborne_dodged_%C2%A355%2C000_tax_bill_by_%27flipping%27&pPK=8f8308f3-ef19-46e4-9731-4ac2316f0b3b
315. Don’t misunderstand what happened earlier this year - the whole financial establishment moved into action to prevent Brown enacting a fiscal splurge that would have endangered financial stability. Darling was only an occasional frontman for that.
311 “Debt interest payments will more than double to £63bn by 2013/14.”
£63,000,000,000.
Sixty three BILLION.
Count those noughts. Sheesh.
Thanks Gordon. Thanks a f****** bunch…
Why on earth does Cameron want to win the next election? The economy is going to be a horror show for a decade or more.
310.MM, Ed is making a good job of taking Q&A’s from the floor at the TUC.
320. Thanks Slackbladder. Will pass it on.
322 - No.
322- the accusation is that Osborne flipped once, which would be bad enough. The accusation against Darling is that he did it repeatedly as part of a business and on a much larger scale.
Just done a YouGov with a voting intentions question right at the end. It then asked 2 questions about how likely I was to watch either Brown or Cameron’s keynote conference sppecehes.
In my case it’s highly unlikely for both as I will be at work! I’ll certainly check out what each of them said later that day but perhaps YouGov need to rephrase that question better!
323 - Indeed, i hope Mervyn King is suitably rewarded after the election.
Lord King, Viceroy of Scotland.
324, a number of reasons:
1) being PM is quite impressive
2) it stops lunatic Labour ruining the country even more
3) if he he can turn it around he’ll be lauded as Thatcher was (and probably just as disliked by lefty dinosaurs)
As Machiavelli wrote, you can only be a great leader if you face a great challenge.
324. You could have some fun comparing that interest bill with various departmental spending totals…
301- Jonathon? Come out, come out, wherever you are…
325 Someone else for Gordon to hate then…
324 - MM, we will be spending more on Interest repayment than on Education, Defence.
Gordon, what a legend.
Is anybody like me thinking that the Labour Conference is going to be one big public execution - Bring out your dud…
332 CCHQ will have the posters being proofed as we speak.
311.”It is a total disaster for the treasury and the government, but some will argue the Tories have taken a big risk with financial confidence in publishing it.”
Why is it a risk to financial confidence to be honest and highlight these figures, and the very real cuts needed to address them in the future?
I would have thought that any serious attempt to tackle the national debt would increase confidence at this time?
322 timmy, that’s all fish and chip wrapping now.
Haven’t you heard? The world’s moved on. The media narrative isn’t about MP’s expenses today, it’s about Browns lies.
The Milibands are a bit like aristocracy to old c*mmies because of their family history so that gives them a slight edge, and it does look like poor Herman’s been purged as the future union candidate in favour of Miliband2.
339- he said that in response to my comment about Darling above, I liked him until I heard about his property portfolio.
336 - Hopefully It’ll be like the Democrats Convention in 1968.
*** Betting Post ***Anyone thinking of a punt on Ed Miliband as Next Labour Leader should look at SPIN. A Buy at the current price of 1.5 corresponds to decimal 16.7 (i.e nearly 16-1), which is better than most of the bookies who offer at best 10-1.
Plus you might have flexibility to trade out at a profit later (if SPIN keep the market open).
I bought a few days ago on this market.
336 I said some while ago that the Labour Conference could see them get a polling dip, rather than a bounce. Looking nailed on now… Labour on 22%, I’d think.
326: You’re welcome….I’m being serious there. One of the biggest mistakes the consveratives made after 1997 is trying to bounce back too quickly without working out why they lost. Its a mixture of both people and policy.
It’s why just replacing Brown won’t work. The entire cabinet is tainted with him and his policies. It’ll need someone to first remove that taint and then someone else to reform something else.
If you want, replace Harman with Johnson. Might even work better then. But its the same situation I see. Have someone who can hold the tories to account, whilst new young guns (like Milliband) can cultivate a new Labour.
Osbourne has screwed Brown and Labour!
340 - Tsk dont you know anything about the Milibands
“The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.”
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
Mind you what Brown has done to this country is no Laughing matter.
This is what you get with Labour though - Idiots in charge.
Gordo not being candid? Who’d thunk it?
Remember this press conference on June 5th (the bizarre reshuffle one) where journalist after journalist accuses Brown of not being candid.
Particularly when Brown directly lies to Tom Bradby of ITN over whether Brown wanted Ed Balls as Chancellor - at 11:05 mins in, and to Fraser Nelson - at 35.20 mins in:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8084571.stm
339 - Starggler Ed, I was responding to a point made above.
The allegation against Osborne is more than just flipping by the way.
Its alleged his mortgage Claims were for a mortgage greater than he paid for the house.
332 & 334 - Then a public demand to call the Government to hold the election, that would be welcome news for the following week
320
As long as the debt is there, and as long as there are people who could remember what the country was once like and what we once aspired to, they won’t be voting Labour.
250,264 Of course the Tories will have to tell us their spending cut plans too…..
350- has that been proven?
278 Bono Publico. A good analogy - reminds me of Custer’s Last Stand, with the final few survivors dashing off in all directions, hopelessly trying to survive. I don’t envy the organisers of the Labour Party Conference - how will speakers cope with the lies about the economy?
353- as soon as Labour let Osborne have a look at the books
Jonathon? Where are you? It’s all gone quiet over there! It’s all gone quiet over there!
346 It does feel like Osborne has known the real story from these Treasury documents for quite some while - he must have known that the cuts story would break at some point, and just couldn’t believe his luck when Gordon was banging about Labour “investment”.
Four tricks to play, Osborne is sat with A-K-Q-J of trumps. And Gordon is still betting that he can win at least one.
350 - Yes, lots of people take out a remortgage greater than the price they initially paid for it.
Which reminds me, how did Blair get a mortgage 16times his salary?
347. I think they were the main inspiration for that.
322,
Timmy,
Come on old chap, todays news is Gordon telling more porkies !
If you refuse to desist with these “Thread Derailing Comments” I will have to tell the others that you are indeed a closet tory really!
NPMP - Still waiting for you to tell us.Will you be speaking?
358. Didn’t the beard/prop also take out a rather dubious mortgage at one point?
350. No Tim, you just don’t understand the difference between a loan and the security used to guarantee that loan.
353: Until Labour do, the Tories won’t becuase they won’t have to.
The pressure is on labour at the moment. After all they are the government.
The Tories have boxed Brown in completely. First it was no cuts, then ‘nice’ cuts…now it’s ‘lots of cuts’.
Tories look honest (if a little vague), Labour look dodgy, which by definition means vague. Advantage Tory.
362 - Runnymede, don’t smear our Glorious leader, his moral compass wouldn’t allow him to do such a thing.
350 “Its alleged his mortgage Claims were for a mortgage greater than he paid for the house.”
I would have to plead guilty to that charge too. It may perhaps have something to do with the Building Society being relaxed about my spending money to improve the property to increase the value of the property - and so reduce the risk if I did default.
Plus, we keep being reminded by the clas warriors that Osborne is some rich bastard- so he ain’t gonna default on his mortgage, is he? Can’t have it both ways guys…
The government response to the Treasury document leak is to say there are no official spending plans beyond 2010/2011. WTF?
Apologies if this link has already been posted, but Brown at his worst in this spat with Fraser Nelson.
Guido - Cuts, Lies and Videotape
346.by Martin Day September 16th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
“Osbourne has screwed Brown and Labour!”
If Brown is on a plane, on his way to the US at the moment I wonder if he is sitting in the Loo with a blade at his wrist whispering to himself CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT !
367: The clue is in the word ‘offical’.
369. Wayne September 16th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Surely the US could take him to a dettention centre for torture after what he has done to this country!
Brown is an uttr cretin! No doubt his children will change their name like Adolf Hitlers relations!
Brown = Monster!
369. Isn’t there an ‘n’ missing from that?
369 Gordo will be in a nice sturdy box in the cargo hold, trussed up like a gimp and gently rocking back and forth.
Gordon Brown goes to his psychiatrist with clingfilm for underpants.
His psychiatrist says, I can clearly see your nuts.
Number 10 denies PM misled Parliament….after much pushing
Never let it be said that the Lobby are unkind.
The Prime Minister’s official spokesman was asked no fewer than three times today whether Gordon Brown had misled Parliament. Three times, the question was ducked with a reply stating instead that there were “no plans” for specific spending cuts beyond what was in the Budget.
Amid much incredulity, we were all set to write stories that the PM’s official spokesman refused to deny that G Brown had misled Parliament.
I’m afraid this was so serious that I had to ask the question again. Finally, the spokesman coughed: “The Prime Minister would never mislead Parliament.”
It was a darned close run thing though….
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/09/number-10-denies-pm-misled-parliamentafter-much-pushing.html
268. ‘10% then schools close and hospitals close’
Where then Gordon?
Tim bit of a advice, if you are going to smear the tories, make sure your own side is purer than pure.
373: Maybe ‘Hannibal’ Balls slipped him a glass of dodgy milk before boarding?
‘I ain’t getting on no damn plane fool’ says Mr B.
267.Where as ‘unofficial’ plans have been in place for a while. For an honest and candid view of the figures, please contact the office of the Shadow Chancellor.
379. There are worse sets of plans than the ones revealed so far.
378, I know you meant a different Hannibal, but Balls is unworthy of the name of arguably the greatest general ever.
Balls and Brown are the Flaminius and Varro of Labour.
380.RM, depressingly, you are no doubt right.
377 - If you are going to smear Darling, then make sure Osborne is pure.
Can you just see labourites as the A-team?
General ‘Hannibal’ Balls
Peter ‘Face’ Mandleson
Mr B (rown)
‘Howling Mad’ Harman
369
Only if he’s eyeing up the sympathy vote
381- Blair as Fabius Maximus?
Brown reminds me more of Hasdrubal Gisco, losing battle after battle to the younger, smarter Publius Scipio before committing suicide to avoid being lynched by his own side.
349 That press conference has always stuck in my mind as the point Brown lost any shred of credibility with the press.
I should have changed Hannibal Smith into Peter Mandleson ‘I love it when a plan comes together’. He works better.
Andy ‘Face’ Burnham is better as well.
383 Ha Ha. The Smearer-in-Chief is criticising another poster for committing his own crime.
386: Exept that Brown is unlikely (politicaly wise) to top himself.
383. tim September 16th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Labour are doomed - DOOMED to defeat!
343 - Richard Nabavi.
What is the small print and rules concerning the SPIN market, have you a link?
Yvette Cooper talking about ISJ proposals is a classic example of what’s wrong with Labour. First point she makes - everything brilliant, nothing wrong with the current system.
386, I think an ancestor of the short-ruling Emperor Galba ordered a unit that irritated him to collect firewood from a forest crawling with enemy troops. The Roman soldiers were so disgruntled that the entire legion marched out and protected the unit as they collected firewood. Upon their return to camp they stacked the wood around Galba’s tent and set it alight.
Brown will get the same treatment the second the election’s over.
392 tim
“Who will be the next Permanent Leader of the UK Labour Party?”
A Prediction on the Next Permanent Leader Of The Labour Party
Next Permanent Leader = 25pts
All Others = 0pts
Note: Others may be added. A ‘caretaker leader’ will NOT count as a permanent leader.
http://www.sportingindex.com/spread-betting/politics/british/?MeetingID=3413042&Split=1
You don’t have to smear darling. The truth is more shocking than any lie. He was a fervent marxist in the mid 70s, believed in the murder of british citizens, and gave tacit support to the khmer rouge, who were smashing babies against trees at the time. Darling is communist filth.
381. Balls and Brown are the Flaminius and Varro of Labour
That’s pretty harsh on Flaminius and Varro
394- I’ve never heard that one. Wasn’t Galba the guy of whom Tacitus (?) said “everyone thought he’d be good at the job, until he got it.”
All these comparisons of Brown to historical figures, I’m sorry, that’s just an EPIC Fail.
A more apt comparison would be to compare Gordon Brown and his cabinet to the muppets.
397- not really, as commander in chief Varro got thousands of his own soldiers slaughtered due to his own incompetence… hang on… perhaps you are right
I have just posted on my blog (http:www.marcus4torbay.org) about this. Interest payments on Britains ballooning national debt will become Governments third largest overhead behind Health and Welfare. It will be more than we spend on education - and roughly equal to the budgets of the Transport, Home Office, Culture & Sport, Foreign Office, Energy & Climate Change, Business and Enterprise, Agriculture and Rural Affairs and International Development Departments added together.
And interest is not a discretionary payment, forcing an even bigger squeeze on those few budgets that can be easily and quickly reduced. On top of this you need to find a way of keeping some income spare to try and reduce the debt otherwise the problem just gets worse every year.
399 Not a good comparison. The Muppets have bought pleasure to millions over the years, and they don’t frighten children.
Nice to see Labour are looking at cutting costs.
“Trade unions’ efforts to support vulnerable workers were given a boost today as Lord Young announced Government funding for fourteen new projects at the TUC Annual Congress.
A total of £2.46 million will be made available to help unions improve their ability to meet the needs of hard-to-reach groups of vulnerable workers. It will be matched with at least an equivalent union contribution.”
http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosite/Content/Detail.aspx?ClientId=431&NewsAreaId=2&ReleaseID=406692&SubjectId=36
186. Madasafish, why would they want to work for minimum wage when the government pays them much more to stay at home. If you had the choice of a crap job on minimum wage or up to twice the cash to stay at home, can you honestly say you would take the job. Whilst there are lazy gets all over Britain , its the system that is wrong not the people.
402 - But have the muppets been CRB and ISA checked?
398, not read Tacitus
It’s in the very entertaining Legionary: The Roman Soldier’s (Unofficial) Manual by Philip Matyszak, and refers to an ancestor of Galba’s (same name, as you might expect), rather than the Emperor himself.
******* Betting Post *******
Totally O/T, but I’ve just noticed the following on Hills’ Press Office website. As ever, these betting odds are not available on their main portal. Instead, it seems, one has to visit one of their shops to place such a bet - it’s almost like going back to the dark ages!
Anyway, here’s the business:
Chelsy & Harry To Get Back Together: 1/2 Yes, 6/4 No
Harry & Chelsy To Get Married: 8/1
Prince William To Get Engaged In 2009: 4/1
William To Marry Kate: 1/3 Yes, 9/4 No
Whilst I have little or no knowledge as regards the state of the relationships of either of the Princes, I am aware that both have been involved with the ladies in question for considerable periods of time.
I guess the 1/3 odds that William will [eventually] marry Kate are probably about right. However, on this basis, the corresponding odds of 8/1 against Harry & Chelsy getting married (ie 24 times as long), look way out of kilter by comparison. So far as I can see, there is no time limit applying to their getting spliced. This looks like value to me.
New thread up, and I wasn’t first.
400 from wiki, Varro “was held in high regard by the Senate and People of Rome, even after the defeat”
Can’t see this applying to Gordo!
405 Have the Cabinet? And if not, why not? They’re always lurking in schools for photo opportunities, surrounded by Kiddie-Shields.
401 Marcus, you really want the job of sorting this out? Really?? I mean respect for wanting to try - but hell, governing Britain for the next five years is the hospital pass to beat all hospital passes!
Not a good day for Labour
BBC News at noon leads with Cameron’s speech, followed by unemployment figures.
I was struck by The last sentence in the latest Coffee house blog, and it rings true..
“After a catastrophic summer, I’m not sure how many more nails the government’s coffin can take”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5335501/the-tories-treasury-mole-exposes-labours-cuts-deception.thtml
398- not Tacitus, Suetonius, I think
I quite agree that Labour are very authoritarian / believers in state control and that this will - or should - harm them electorally. Essentially, having stopped nationalising companies they have embarked on a process of nationalising people and our private lives. Indeed, they have no concept of a private life or a society separate from the state. They are a menace to our democracy and to our society. I don’t think it excessive to call them “fascist” because in their belief in the state, their belief that the state has the right to determine how people should live their lives, their obsession with groups, their disregard for traditions/conventions, their disregard for Parliament and proper Parliamentary scrutiny, they exhibit very similar corporatist tendencies which are a feature of fascist states.
What is interesting is that as the E Europe Communist states have fallen away states in the West have felt freer to adopt many of the same measures without any real criticism. There has been no benchmark which has stopped governments here from saying “No, we don’t do that, we’re not East Germany etc” and people have forgotten what it was like to hear of people being spied on, people being denounced and losing their jobs because of unfounded allegations (ref the ISA), people needing permission to leave the country (e-Borders), people having to prove to the state who you are (ID cards), people being classified according to class to get to university (Labour’s higher education policy) etc etc. Communism is seen as history so people forget repressive measures don’t need to come labelled as “Communist” to be a bad thing. Even our governments can enact repressive measures. Too many people think that because we’re in the West and we’re free and our governments are a good thing, they ipso facto they can’t enact measures just as nasty as those nasty fascist/Communist governments. But they can and do and in Labour’s case have done so with glee.
The Tories need to make this a big theme for their campaign: something along the lines of “Set the people free” and follow through with a thorough-going repeal or dramatic slicing back of pretty much all of Labour’s legislation in this area. If they did, it would resonate with people at so many levels.
399 Is Prescot Miss Piggy, or the Cookie Monster?
Renault admit F1 race fixing
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6836809.ece
Very thoughtfull post on personal achievements. It should be very much helpfull
Thanks,
Karim - Positive thinking
322.
” Isn’t Osborne a worse case than Darling?”
You mean a bigger Flipper?
GideO would prefer to compare himself as a Killer Whale rather than a dolphin. Hence his modeling his looks on a younger Al Capone. Reminds me, didn’t Capone go down for bureaucratic fraud? GideO could share a cell with Podgy Peedie?