Could this new party affect voting in university areas?
August 15th, 2009
Can they repeat their Swedish successes here?
I’ve written before about the Piratpartiet in Sweden, but this week saw the announcement that the Electoral Commission has added to its register of political parties in Great Britain “The Pirate Party UK”.
For those not aware, this is an offshoot of the Pirate Party International which aims to reduce the burdens of onerous copyright restrictions (essentially supporting filesharing and reducing duration of copyright), combat the surveillance state, and support freedom of speech. The PPI is active in around 25 countries, but registered to fight elections in only a handful within the EU.
It is easy to dismiss new parties as having no chance of making an impact, but some do grow exponentially and succeed. The Swedish Piratpartiet recently won 2 seats in the European Parliament (they get the second only if Lisbon Treaty is ratified - although ironically, the Swedish party opposes ratification), meaning they outperformed the rather-better-funded Libertas across the Continent (who won a single MEP in France).
The background of the UK project is the technology sector rather than political campaigning, but the response they have got has seemed positive - the Telegraph today reports healthy sign-up of members and donations: by comparison, the Swedish party has become the third largest by grassroots membership in just three years.
The UK party’s leader, Andrew Robinson, told me that they would seek to run at the General Election, and would stand as many candidates as they could afford to support properly and will target primarily university constituencies because students are demographically more likely to file-share and to spend time and money online.
Robinson recognises that they won’t get anyone elected at the first attempt, but they want to steer the conversation towards their issue. Again, in Sweden, a number of smaller parties switched to the PPI position on technological issues in an attempt to stop the haemorraging of supporters to the new entity.
I find it curious that issues like Net Neutrality and Internet Regulation get so little play in British politics - the centrality of the internet to communications, media and consumer commerce is undeniable, and yet there has been little innovation in law, policy, or governmental structure to accommodate that: and innovations that are mooted tend to fill people with horror.
We are all aware of things like ISPs to help the government track all emails and calls, DRM software on downloads, Andy Burnham wondering out-loud if the Blogosphere should be ‘regulated’, and the rise to prominance of the Internet Watch Foundation. For those who missed it (most of us, I’d bet) Stephen Timms a fortnight ago was announced as the replacement for Lord Carter, whose Digital Britain report in June recommended … well, read the reviews.
I don’t know if the UK Pirate Party will meet their aim of retaining a deposit at the General Election - I suspect they might, though banking on emulating their Swedish comrades seems a little unlikely for the next couple of years. But by the European Elections of 2014, who’s to say what the British political landscape might look like?
Morus
ALSO: GREAT NEW ARTICLE FROM ANDY COOKE ON POLITICAL BETTING CHANNEL 2
MessageSpace Advertising
They will be interesting, but I’m not sure if they will have much effect. And with that brief comment, good night!
Great Piece. I recall that UKIP once planned to at least campaign under if not actually change their name to, the Independence party. Freedom is definately under represented in the British political offer and i think there is a small gap in the market. The problem of course is (a) we still have so much FPTP (b) the thresholds are quite high under the list system PR we have so
(a) Lib Dems. Won’t be happy having an anti establishment party targeting university seats. they need to move on policy pronto. Ditto Greens writ smaller.
(b) UKIP. Does it have or even want any identity over and above Europe
(c) Conservatives. Its a change election and they’ll want these sort of younger, aspirational voters in there column but how many would have ever turned out for the Tories anyway?
(d) overall ? WE’ll another tiddler swimming in the anti establishment sea. I think it will have to take its darwinian chances with Esther Rantzen and Jury Team but who was to say VHS was always going to beat beta Max ?
What ever happens i imagine all the big boys will be updating their Freshers Fair materials over the weekend.
In Sweden they grew due to wider media attention on the issue, especially around the legal case, and by recruiting from a pre-existing movement. Neither of these will occur here. They stood outside Sweden already, to terrible results.
Morus, without some specific cause not to then yes, parties are dismmissed. More form all the time, but micro-parties cannot communicate with voters and are do not gain their confidence anyway. Without some very widely resonating issue- and this ain’t it- they go nowhere. Theres just no reason why anyone should expect a tiny (Greens and UKIP are small, parties like this are a whole other level) to go anywhere.
I would actually like a shift in these issues to closer to their position, so its not like I’m hostile, its just they are irrelevant and won’t get anywhere so…
They would do better either on a non-electoral basis or as entryists (probably easiest in the Greens for them).
I think I speak for everyone when I say that Casablanca was a cracking film.
3. You are of course absolutely correct. However somethings are written in the stars.
The media has picked up and thus already decided that the next Election is going to have an antiestablishment surge. It will happen in the second or third week of the camapign after the initial excitement of the Trip to the Palace is over and they have another 2 weeks of sound bites and huge Tory poll leads to cover.
It may only last 7 days before petering out but it will happen.
Clegg has blown it. It should be Lucas’s moment - if she gets clever people behind her and does media training . However it will be somebody. The Britsih Political psyche is aching for Mrs Pritchard to awake from her sleep on Avalon.
If only for a week next April to brighten things up.
I think they’ve got their name totally wrong. It simply does not work in UK terms.
People now think of pirates in the original context - armed gangs who take over ships and demand big ransom payments. Pirates are not seen as fun or freedom fighters but criminals who threaten world trade and the new party is being totally dumb to use this imagery. Even their logo reinforces this point.
So doomed to failure on branding I’m afraid which is a pity because they raise serious issues.
I don’t think the Pirate party will last for long. Their main issue seems to be to fight against the principles of intellectual/property rights and these are important bedrocks of liberal democracy. In any case services such as spotify, last FM, netflix, 7digital etc and the fact that the music and film industries are finally “getting” the economics of the internet suggests to me that their relevance as a single issue party is already declining.
YS, a cause that might help the Pirates - and could play to the GE timetable - would be championing Gary McKinnon in his fight for extradition/justice. After all, he was just trying to do a bit of file sharing with those seeking the truth on UFO’s. I would imagine that would be a popular cause with not only the young. Maybe even the PM’s wife would support them…
(O/T on the drive up to Scotland, weather was OK until we hit the Cumbria sign. Then it suddenly got very, very dark and very, very wet. A remarkable manifestation of the “Brown holidaying here!” phenomenon…)
They’ve done well to launch at the same time Morrissey tells his fans not to buy his new compilation release because he won’t see a penny.
7, property rights are fundamental, but intellectual property isn’t property. That term is just an analogy, and an inexact one.
Trademarks are necessary, to prohibit companies trading an a rival’s good reputation, but only for that purpose. Some companies overreach, and try to prevent legitimate uses of their trademark.
Patents are intended to be an exchange: the inventor gets a legal monopoly on their creation in return for making its workings public. Again, though, this is being abused. Many patents today do not provide enough information to allow a typical worker in their field enough information to construct the invention described, as they should, either because the patent describes general knowledge or because it is so vague as to be useless.
The whole bargain behind patents is of questionable merit anyway. There have been studies suggesting that patents slow down innovation, probably because they let companies rest on their laurels.
Copyright was originally about making literal copies, in an age when that was difficult. Now copying is trivial, and often necessary. Every single person reading this message has a copy of it on their computer, at least temporarily, in violation of my copyright, but suing over that would be madness.
Copyright is ripe for reform, starting with the term. Very few artists are still claiming royalties after twenty years, but works can stay in copyright for one hundred and twenty years (life plus), which is mostly to no one’s benefit.
Related to all this, there’s the question of EULAs, which can use copyright and patent protection to impose some pretty objectionable terms.
Really, the whole area is ripe for reform, which shouldn’t start with the assumption that intellectual property is just like real property. Forget the analogy and look at what it is actually for.
6 Doomed Mike? Have you been affected by a certain Mr Day’s terminology ?
Robert of Sheffield’s post @9 is a great summary of the problems that need addressing as far as IP law is concerned. It’s also worth noting that this is one issue where nearly all the action is happening at the European level rather than the nation state level. It sort-of makes sense to vote for a pan-European party to deal with this stuff. Tinter@2 says that the Pirate Party have bombed everywhere except Sweden. Anyone have any thoughts about what it might take for multi-national party to succeed in more than a few member states?
Just thinking about the UK, the Pirate Party’s website also has their number 2 concern as “End the excessive surveillance, profiling, tracking and monitoring of innocent people by Government and big businesses.” They’d probably have more luck pushing this line than the stuff about patent and copyright reform, which is going to leave most of Britain’s electorate cold. I also think it’s where they could make the “pirate” stuff work to their advantage; People who aren’t impressed with the right to download music for free may still be sympathetic to some imaginative, slightly anarchic protest activity, which could cut across party lines and appeal to the anti-political mood. They should be thinking about stunts like Banksy’s “One Nation Under CCTV”, which even the Daily Mail said nice things about:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-559547/Graffiti-artist-Banksy-pulls-audacious-stunt-date–despite-watched-CCTV.html
6, not sure I agree with that. Pirates make me think of Johnny Depp. If female voters feel that way it can only help the party.
To be honest, I’d be open to considering voting for the Pirate Party, but Operation Cut Off Balls requires my vote to go to Antony Calvert. I’m not risking the admittedly small chance of Balls being ousted to vote for a party unlikely to win any seats at all.
Betting PostTsonga’s about 4/1 to beat Murray on Betfair. They’re 1:1 on past meetings and Tsonga just beat Federer (I think for the second time in nine attempts). May be worth a flutter.
Oh, and the European Grand Prix (Valencia) market is up on Betfair. Surprised to see Hamilton favourite at 3/1 but Raikonnen, who also did well at HUngary, 14/1.
to cofirm the weather forecast from Cumbria (as mentioned by Marquee Mark @ 8 @ 5:33am…..
wild, wet, and windy………trees blown down….most unseasonal…
….not mid-August at all!
Mr Brown please go!
14, we should send Brown to Iran. That’ll teach them.
Betting PostSorry for tons of tiny posts. Anyway, Jankovic is 5/2 to beat Dementieva despite a winning record (6:3, which does include one retirement from Dementieva). Last time Jankovic lost to her on a hard court was three years ago.
Always wary about posting tips, my record is patchy at best (I’ve started keeping records and have a 46.5% prediction rate).
PP got a lot of media coverage during their trial and the trial was a long one. They will have to come up with some way of getting that media attention over here.
I agree with Mike. A childish name perfect for the Swedish condition. This sort of Party appeals in the ridiculously ordered country that Sweden is in a way that it never could in the freewheeling UK. Their idea of being being anti establishment(or naughty as they’d probably put it) is driving a bicycle without a rear light!
18, but what’s in a name? That which we call Labour would be any other name be as incompetent.
Unless you call yourself something horrid the name doesn’t matter, policy does. The Scottish National Party is fine but the British National Party is not. Is it because Scottish is ok and British isn’t? Of course not. The difference is that the BNP are overtly racist and the SNP are not.
Test
I can’t see it being a success here but ,if I’m wrong,it would be desperately worrying to the Lib Dems.It would principally attract”their” type of student voter in their university marginals.
I would imagine that the concept behind them would only appeal to those lacking a proper moral disposition who believes that the fruits of other people’s labour is theirs by right. Sounds exactly like a student mentality to me.
Nonsense.. Load of idiots.
22 A student mentality like this, perhaps?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-447205/How-scrounge-State-Gordon-Brown.html
19 Well, yes, but… Actually, I think you are mainly wrong - clearly in the original meaning pirates have been becoming more and more high profile. Somalia, now the Arctic Sea etc. And although there is to be honest, a frisson of excitement with it, I think the pirates are being seen as pretty negative forces. So, no, I don’t see any party with this name taking off in Britain!
23, but that doesn’t mean they can’t get votes or win elections. Treating potential opponents with contempt isn’t a good way of defeating them.
22. James. “…. who believes that the fruits of other people’s labour is theirs by right”
You’re not having a swipe at George Osborne’s IHT proposals are you?
25 Exactly. Look at the load of idiots governing us today…
if it gets rid of Stephen Williams in Bristol, but The Pirates might find that City fans won’t vote for them.
When I t’were a lad in Torbay, every spring these amazing looking Swedish girls would arrive. I’ve been pretty keen on anything Swedish ever since. Don’t think I could cope with 24 hour ABBA though.
Will their theme song be, ‘Knowing me, knowing you?’
23. “……..Load of idiots”
You might have more in common with this Party than you realize Wayne.
25: “Treating potential opponents with contempt isn’t a good way of defeating them.”
Now there’s a new thought for PB.
22 But a lot of other people than students reckon IPRs are being applied in totally unfair ways - see Posts 9 and 11 here. And although “adult” sites like this (and mainstream politics in general) love to characterise student politics as daft etc, the seeds of many later mainstream ideas are sown in that environment.
26 - Roger, that sentiment would more be a swipe at IHT itself…
Guaranteed to bomb, they will be lucky to get any deposit back, though they may take a few votes from the Raving Loony Party if they dress appropriately.
Sorry, Morus, but I have to be pedantic…
It is incorrect to say “the Piratpartiet” as the -et suffix already means “the”. So just “Piratpartiet” or alternatively “the Piratparti”.
On topic: it is instructive to see how well the Jury Team and Libertas did in the Euro elections: elections where non-mainstream parties did well, and where Libertas could hope that, like UKIP, they would have some resonance in a Euro election. In addition, after many years of growth, both BNP and UKIP have failed to make any headway at a Westminster level.
The Pirate Party will bomb.
33 A swipe at quite a lot of taxes, for that matter.
32. Tim 13. Like these;
http://thequintessential.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/bullingdon-club.jpg
Mike Smithson’s point is a good one. I don’t see them getting any further than Veritas, Libertas, or Jury Team.
19 MD I think you are wrong! In most cases, names can help or hinder a movement or party. In Britain, Pirates are increasingly associated with lawless Somalis etc. Now with the possible hijacking of the Arctic Sea, piracy may be coming to a sea near you - ironically off the coast of Sweden!
37 Jealous?
Students were starting to become desperately disappointing and faceless when I was at Uni, now they are just sixth form plus.
Raise the voting age to 21 and keep these imbeciles out of it!
Joking aside, force them to pass a course in skiving and getting badly mashed on cheap booze before they get their qualification. Especially the ones who do a 30 our week of lectures, they are just odd.
OK, really joking aside, terrible name, limited appeal, student appeal as main attraction - in the words of the classic kit kat ad ‘you’ll go a long way’
A reminder for Andy Burnham and others about the extent of Gordon I love the NHS Brown’s dental work.
This time the Mirror - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news-old/top-stories/2007/03/12/why-is-it-so-hard-to-see-an-nhs-dentist-115875-18739927/
Cue to Andrew Marr ask Brown if he claimed the dental work on expenses, go on you know you want to.
If the Pirate Bay case had blown up here, then I could see the studenty vote/blogotypes voting for them - but since it didn’t, is old news and we’re not like Sweden then nope.
They would pick up some of the micro party voters and a few hundred LDs who are more mainstream and want to be naughty.
I disagree with OGH about the name and the high-seas stuff - the vast majority who ‘get’ the name will think of interweb geeks and file sharers who like to see themselves as keyboard freedom fighters.
36 - Well indeed!
There’s definitely a niche segment of the electorate who would vote for this and they’re right to target university seats. But it’s smallish and only really interested in this issue - in the PP’s absence they probably wouldn’t vote at all. It’s not to be confused with the broader libertarian agenda - they simply feel that freedom of the internet in every sense is the most wonderful thing that’s ever happened and absolutely nothing must be allowed to disturb it. This group would still see pirates in the original Jolly Roger shiver-my-timbers image rather than as Somali gangsters - they routinely break the law already by cracking copy protection on games and they quite like doing it.
29: coldstone, what’s wrong with 24-hour Abba? A perfectly reasonable idea. I’ve heard reports that there are other bands, but like to think that’s an evil rumour.
Given that success elsewhere = try your luck in the UK (Libertas re the referendum in Ireland, Aaaaaaggh me hearties in Sweden), perhaps the Polish Law and Justice party will make tim’s day and set up a UK based version.
Here you go Wayne. Courtesy of Lars Von Trier……
http://ricksflickspicks.animationblogspot.com/files/2006/11/Idiots.jpg
But South African-born dentist and practice owner Mervyn Druian said Brown had been a private patient of his for nearly 20 years.
He said: “Mr Brown is like many of my patients who opt for private treatment because they can phone me up in the morning and get an appointment the same day.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news-old/top-stories/2007/03/12/why-is-it-so-hard-to-see-an-nhs-dentist-115875-18739927/
Would Andy Burnham like to ask his boss how long he has been using private dentistry? Or does the man not want to supply another crate of Nokias?
44 Perhaps they could make tim’s week and merge with the Conservative Party.
39. SeanF. “37. Jealous?”
We couldn’t even afford the suits
http://hcl.harvard.edu/hfa/images/films/2004spring/idiots.jpg
46 I watched Burham/Lansley just now and I think I’ve finally spotted Lansley’s X factor.
He looked like a doctor, he sounded like a doctor - Burham looked like a Thunderbirds puppet, with too much make-up and wasn’t taking the issue seriously at all. His smirking was so out of place.
And that yellow jacket *thumbs down*, I just hope he hasn’t been shopping with Tom O’Connor
So OGH thinks that the Pirate Party has a branding issue. Then maybe he should step forward as their new leader.
Funny thing collective cognisance. Only this morning, whilst reading The Economist, I thought up a picture of the opening intro to The Meaning of Life. I can imagine Mr Smithson leading us pirate converts into battle against the [now] state-owned financial system…!
47 The British Conservative, Law and Justice Party (with made up prejudices about everything and a kitten kicking habit)
Morning all and what a delicious thought. A party dedicated to young people freely downloading music taregetting university constituencies. The LibDems would be knocked for six and could forget about the likes of Oxford etc.
I heard the Pirate Party are setting up in Ireland.
Apparantly they are concentrating on Dubloon South
Sue me
37 Didn’t know you were a secret Bullingdoner, Sean?!
48. You were lucky to have suits. There were 52 of us in shoe box in middle of t’road….
55 This MP seems to have forgotten his
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article78045.ece
56
Love the y-fronts.
I forgot to ask how the “Gay Pro hunting Labour voters for Anna Soubry” are doing today!
Finally people have begun to realise why Andrew Lansley is such a good Shadow Health Secretary. He looks and sounds like a doctor and frankly every doctor I have spoken to comments upon how well he has mastered his brief. He speaks with a knowledge of the NHS.
Andy Burnham is looking more like a graduate from Brown Bunker every day. I can just imagine him like a talking action man in his office every morning with his Permanent Secretary asking him to pull the correct voice cord.
which one is it today Minister?
No more boom and bust
Tory cuts and Labour investment
Tory splits on the NHS
We are helping squllions by investing billions of squillions
A wide wide world wide recession made in America
anything made in America
The Prime Minister will lead us into the 2018 General Election
Tony Blair for President- (oops malfunction there)
My wife doesn’t dress me up like the Milky Bar kid
My wife doesn’t dress like Cilla Black in her flower power days
I love Gordon
Now who is that Lib Dem MP with the Black beard? Surely a candidate for defection to the new party?
39
So then sean! The Tories are ringfencing the NHS and increasing the money spent on it. Osborne has told a private company, (which isn’t in receipt of taxpayers money) how much they should pay their employees: what next a prices and incomes policy?
p.s.
Are you in the right party.
p.p.s.
Is this Cameron’s clause4 moment i.e. has he adopted it?
60 There will be no option but to break the promise on NHS spending (or have gilt-buyers, and/or the IMF break it for us). I suppose the question is whether it’s more politically expedient to do it now or after the election. Probably, the latter.
That’s why right wingers aren’t as annoyed about Cameron as you think they should be. The fiscal situation we are in requires the State to be shrunk sharply regardless of whether government wants it.
On thread - can’t see this group making any headway at all, though it might take a few votes off the Lib Dems here and there (shame
).
61
So you admit Lansley is talking crap then?
The right aren’t that upset? this guy is fuming!!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100006468/davewatch-inadequate-david-cameron-is-afraid-to-sack-serial-buffoon-alan-duncan/
Sean Fear wrote.
There will be no option but to break the promise on NHS spending
After Cameron has made that pledge on such personal grounds that is impossible.
“So you admit Lansley is talking crap then?”
Intellectually, yes. Politically, no. In political terms, he’s telling a noble lie, because most voters couldn’t bear to be told the truth.
I wonder what new crap predictions we will get from the cesspit today?
64 I could pledge to donate £30,000 a year to Cancer Research, but if the income isn’t there (and it isn’t), I’d have to break that promise. Likewise, the promise of a real terms increase on health spending.
It is easy to make a pledge, then renege on a minor similarity and call it a promise. Labour set the mould with the Lisbon Constitution (a.k.a. Treaty).
50. Fluffy Thoughts
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_t7elCWxWuFw/SgFJaFeQ5KI/AAAAAAAAAFA/n8cU2MQza8
63 Coldstone, since when did Gerald Warner speak for the Tory party or its grassroots?
Gerald Warner writes in the Scotsman as well and the man is a total ass. He is fighting the wars of the Callaghan Government. He doesnt realise we are in the 21st century.
Frankly the more David Cameron upsets the likes of Warner and Heffer the more he must be doing things correctly.
Why dont you and Tim go back to the bunker and just tell them we think their script is somewhat outdated and irrelevant or are you worried Gordon will make you stand in the corner while he hurls old nokias at you!!
Any polls this weekend?There has been a number of psots saying the Tories have had a bad week and Brown is away.the Libs have been pretty invisible-what will polls show little change I suspect!
Good Morning Pirate Voters For Nick Palmer Worldwide.
Meanwhile …. Sean Fear opines that Conservatives tell “noble” lies.
Answers on a postcard for Labour and Lib Dem equivalents !!
Off thread, this is worth a read, just to understand the sheer lunacy of lending practices during the boom.
Bradford & Bingley - 60% of loan book in buy to let, 20% in self-certified loans.
Impairment charge £328 million, up by a factor of four in a year.
Provision for fraud and professional negligence a staggering £271 million
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article6797123.ece
coldstone(billy) thanks for the admission of lying on the previous thread. It makes it clear for the rest of the readers on here.
65
Intellectually, yes. Politically, no. In political terms, he’s telling a noble lie, because most voters couldn’t bear to be told the truth.
So! thats gotta be the best cop out yet! So I don’t want any of you lot ever, and I mean ‘ever’ criticising any politician of any party for telling porkies it ‘aint its a, ‘noble lie’
74
A noble one of course!
69. Try again! (But 2nd choice)
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dwmalone/mistake.jpg
74, so, just to confirm you are a liar. Off out back soon.
67 - The money will be there, Cameron will cut other things instead.
If he backs down on a promise made on his sons life he’s finished as a politician and as a man.
79 With a deficit of £175-200 bn, the money most certainly won’t be there - unless one is prepared to accept absolutely unprecedented cuts in things like social security, education, policing and so on. Somehow, I think that that would cause far more political damage to a Conservative government.
re 79. That assumes that Labour in opposition is able to capitalise on it. That’s a big assumption because the the party has almost nobody capable of communicating. Just look at how pathetic Burnham was yesterday - is he capable of taking on Cameron? Of course not.
FPT 410 “What better way to open a debate on the sacred cow of the NHS than by allowing a known maverick like Hannan full rein? It would always be fully disclaimed by his party but the ensuing debate…”
I was thinking that.
67
So on the one hand we have Lansley saying health spending is sacrosanct, (or pretty much so) then we have Osborne saying this.
Tory circles are abuzz with excitement about yet another chance to wage war on the big state, and usher in Cameron’s “post-bureaucratic age” even more zealously than the party leadership plan to. Tax rises have not been ruled out, though as Osborne recently put it, “the bulk of the strain in dealing with this debt crisis has to be cutting public spending”. Only health and international development have been ring-fenced – though today, when it comes to health spending, he says only that “we will work hard to protect it”.
So not too hard I expect!
78
Don’t hurry back, and while your out try and come up with something original.
Off-topic, but a government has been accused of being guilty of “…clear signs of political amorality and immaturity and of a general administrative incompetence”. It would be funny, but the accusing government is that of Rusty Brown.
[Src: al-Beeb
81 Mike S. Let’s not forget that Cameron came from out of the unknown mists of Witney. We simply don’t know what sons of “tim” or “coldstone” may be lurking in the Labour undergrowth.
Once Mrs Cammo is legitimately measuring the Downing Street curtains then we’re in a whole new ball game !!
61, the Conservatives can always redefine terms.
Split NHS spending totals into health spending and administration spending, ’so the public know better where their money is going’, then cut the administration spending while increasing health spending - promise kept.
Health spending would be the wages of all medical staff, the running costs of all medical equipment, and the purchase cost of all medical goods and equipment. Administration would include everything from memo-pads to the Equality Director. I suspect most people would agree that spending 20% less on post-it notes isn’t a cut in health spending. The catering and cleaning budget could probably also be usefully separated out.
81. This is the critical point in UK politics right now, isn’t it? Labour are so discredited and despised that the Tories can get away with almost anything. Certainly minor squalls like this and one or two others we have recently won’t have any impact at all.
It’s been quite instructive to see Labour’s handful of surviving spinners and media chums desperately trying to big these stories up only to see them blow over in short order and the polls remain set in stone. Everything points to the public having made up their minds.
Been away for a few weeks but not much gone on of any significance politically it seems.
Nice to see another stealth tax has been sneaked in too - and on Tim’s favourite tax as well!
“We do not choose when we die. Executors may find themselves having to raise funds to pay the tax in unfavourable market conditions. This can be a particular problem with property.
“Sadly this cash-strapped Government has now decided to do away with a structure that has operated successfully for a generation.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/6030217/Inheritance-tax-interest-charges-increased.html
1/2 way through August, the months to go before Gordon is gone shrink further…. party in my street still on the agenda.
Incidentally the logic that Labour may poll better when next we see some should be seen that without Brown as leader (he’s gone all August isn’t he) they would do better and is dangerous for him personally. GOOD!
Well the Beeb was doing full speed Labour work this morning. At the end of the today programme Evan Davies interviewed Denis McShane and Lance Price on how wonderful/talented/able etc etc Mandelson was.
A classic example of the Beebs legendary impartiality.
Back to the dentists, perhaps Prescott should sign up to Brown’s dentist. When he was spinning, he seriously sounded like his dentures were about to drop into the River Humber.
73. Runnymede. Do you know if the shareholders will ever get anything for their shares or are they valueless? I bought some a couple of years ago when a friend started handling the account.
Eaasterross you forgot the most important one for Burnham:
There are no waiting lists in the NHS now.
re 85. True Jack - but I got on Cameron in July and September 2005 at prices of upto 11/1. He was my pick from very early on because of his communicating capabilities - which is central. There’s almost nobody I can think of in the PLP at the moment.
86 Oh, I agree. There are plenty of ways of getting out of the pledge.
Hi coldstone(billy). Regards originality, there is nothing original in mindlessly posting links to articles in newspapers without adding your own thoughts and opinions. It is akin to what gabble does. I know of course why you do it. It is because when you do actually add something of your own you cannot resist the exaggeration, lie or convenient anecdote that just happens to agree with you to try and bolster your case. So on second thoughts in your case it is probably better to stick with just posting links.
92 Mike S. I’d broadly agree. However “events” often bring the cream to the top. Maybe of individuals whose chance hadn’t yet come. It’s all a little if but and maybe.
However one thing from this weeks Duncan/health saga is that IMO Labour senses a small chink of light from the Cameron darkness that has fallen over them. It may be snuffed out as quickly as it appeared but it might equally be a little taster of the actual campaign. Certainly Labour are on the canvass but not quite counted out just yet.
81. Yes Burnham was poor yesterday. He’s likable enough but it’s a sad day when you find yourself longing for the jackbooted John Reid.
Where HAVE all the (Labour) flowers gone?
78. Don, we await your return with baited breath.
And just in case , “baited” was deliberate.
94 don. Posting links to external articles without further PB comment is perfectly legitimate and does not reflect on the origianl poster. Many PBers do it and have not been afforded your censure.
100 - Where HAVE all the (Labour) flowers gone?
Roger, When will you EVER learn?
13,16 Morris - Short betting posts are good. A strike rate of 46.5% is very good, especially as you tend to favour the outsider. On this basis you must be showing a handsome profit to a level stake ….. perhaps you too should consider introducing a subscription service!
As regards your “tips” above in the European F1 Grand Prix, I take it you are recommending both laying Hamilton at or around 3/1 and backing Raikonnen at or around 14/1. The latter would be an interesting spread bet for a place on the firms’ Indices were the corresponding odds to be at anything like this level.
I’ve just seen a clip of Alex Ferguson being interviewed about the impact of Ronaldo’s departure filmed, as ever, against a background of the names of the club’s various sponsors. I was surprised to see betfair featuring large …… that must be costing them big time! I was equally surprised to see AIG is still the leading shirt sponsor - I thought this deal had been pulled, pardon the pun, following the US insurer’s serious financial problems.
JackW, how many of those posters have admitted to lying?
91. You are correct, its a case of the best of a bad lot , the least worse option.
malcolmg, see post 98, best to refresh your screen before making “clever” comments.
100 Roger. “Where HAVE all the (Labour) flowers gone?”
On the compost heap of history ??
Polling this weekend
If they are following the normal schedule then we should get YouGov in the Sunday Times and maybe ComRes in the IoS.
My hesitation is that all the papers are under pressure and things like polling budgets can be cut.
In the third week of August last year we got the ICM poll in the Guardian and Ipsos-MORI. I don’t know whether those will be coming.
106 don. Relevance ??
91 Perhaps that should be the topic of a thread. When did Labour cease to be believed?
108. Don you seem to have had a humour bypass recently, lighten up the Tories will still win despite the efforts of some of their MP’s and MEP’s.
There is scope for a centrist/leftist libertarian* leaning party and, in the UK at least, nothing like that exists. One area that I have personally campaigned for is the relaxation of copyright laws and to allow for abandonment and obviously, as a liberal, the areas of curtailing surveillance and freedom of speech are of great importance to me.
So why not vote for them? Firstly, the electoral system doesn’t allow for small parties to succeed, even the UK’s version of PR for EU elections. Secondly, the name sounds like a joke party. That may, obviously, appeal to others!
* Too many mistake their views as libertarian when, in fact they are merely small state right wingers.
Sean Fear you do Cameron a disservice in thinking he is lying about a real value increase in NHS spending.
He means it and will do it, and for good political reasons as you perceive, but for good managerial reasons too.
The NHS is the biggest chunk of public spending. To reform it to be more responsive and more effective and give better value for money will take time and money. So a promise to increase spending up to 2014 - that is three years after this financial year - makes perfect sense.
The level of increase spending will not be Brownian to break the bank, but rather as a planned reform budget I suspect.
The truth is that it will be easier to cut elsewhere for immediate savings. Savage cuts to the NHS as the Labour salami-slice plans would require, would do tremendous damage and probably cost more in the long term.
All these savings will be painful and I am certain, if things carry on as they are with Brown and Co, there will need to be some tax increases to help fill the holes for three years, being removed in time for the benefits to be seen before an election for a second term.
I don’t really understand why it is always assumed that the budget deficit has to be cut immediately a government comes to office. It will take years to rebalance the economy from debt to investment, to start paying off the debt and making sure that our spending priorities are reflected in departmental budgets.
The Debt Management Office will be able to sell government debt reasonably well if the government has a credible path the health. Such a path for an economy as big and old as ours would not include immediate cuts to find savings of 10% of GDP in one go.
So it is going to be a tough ride even if government is doing the right thing. I think it may be 1980-83 all over again.
What a waste this government has been, frittering away an earlier generation’s hard won prosperity.
98
I thought you were going out, or has the minibus to the local town, not turned up yet, as I’m sure you aren’t allowed out on your own.
coldstone(billy) 116, Oh dear, should you really be trying to make cheap points using people with disabilities?
110 Mike - It seems ages since we last saw a Populus poll, or maybe it’s my imagination.
105, hehe actually I’ve (speculatively) backed Button at 8/1. Hoping they’ve finally sorted the car out.
I wouldn’t lay Hamilton, mostly due to lack of cash. Personally I’m looking to see if Vettel’s odds get longer, he’s 3/1 right now. Maybe I should bac him now, actually.
At for the 46.5%, I don’t mention most of my bets on here (really pissed with myself, I backed both Williams sisters to go out with puny stakes, with normal stakes I’d be ahead now instead of down). I probably back favourites circa 2/3 of the time.
Indeed, Youzhny beating Cilic was the first outsider bet I’d won for weeks.
90 - As i’ve pointed out before the NHS is very efficient when it comes to administration, roughly 6% of the budget is all that is spent on it.
A 20% reduction and you are looking at a saving of about 1.3 Billion.
115 I’m sure he would *like* to keep that pledge, but it’s not realistic. If the economy returns to much more rapid than expected growth, no doubt he will keep that pledge, but I think that’s an unlikely scenario.
Once you have a structural budget deficit of 10% of GDP, you need to have a clear plan to close it fairly rapidly (not immediately, which would be impossible). Otherwise, in no time, you’ll find people will only lend to you at punitive rates of interest.
117
I do apologise, I realised you were mentally subnormal, but your quite right I shouldn’t make cheap jibes about it.
Why is the Pirate Party called the Pirate Party?
Because they aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
123, hehe, you silly man
Does Robert of Sheffield remind any of this chap…?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrOx24-7ytg
Decided to back Raikonnen and Vettel at 3/1 and 14/1. Raikonnen put in a solid and overlooked performance at Hungary and should be shorter. Vettel’s the best driver in the sport, I think, and has the best car.
But this will be an intriguing race (although I have to say that qualifying has been more exciting this year than the actual racing). Can McLaren and Ferrari maintain their progress, will Brawn bounce back, can Red Bull keep biting into Button’s lead?
67 - Gerald Warner is part of the loony fringe., think Heffer with slightly better hair.
[6] - “..People now think of pirates in the original context - armed gangs who take over ships and demand big ransom payments. Pirates are not seen as fun..”
Mike, stop being old! My daughter’s primary school still has the year 1’s dressing up as pirates and singing pirate songs every summer. Pirate costumes are still selling in the fancy dress shops. I don’t think DVD sales of the Pirates of the Caribbean films have completely collapsed.
Amongst the old, perhaps there is a hardened attitude against all this frivolity in the light of the Somali situation, but the Pirate party would always be targeting the 18-35 year olds, and mostly the young end of that too.
I hate to say it in these terms, but I think OGH’s post 6 is a case of him showing his age…
LondonStatto@127, I was thinking the same thing, but I was too polite to say it…
I’m not saying the Pirate Party will do well in the UK, but they’ll do better than they would if they were called The Coalition For Intellectual Property Reform…
117 (and several others) Don. Relax. Get the milkshake machine out and put your feet up…….
JohnO. The carefree days of free love…..smoking dope ….and delivering Tory Party leaflets….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz_eJqQCCig&feature=related
Missed the whole previous thread due to a rare night out
but wholeheartedly agree with Mike Smithson’s sentiments. No proper deabte is possible on the NHS with the “we care more than you” playground antics of supposedly serious politicians.
Very depressing. SOMEDAY someone will have to reform the NHS, the longer the 1948 model persists the harder it will be.
I don’t know about University areas, but the Pirate Party platform strongly appeals to me.
They’re an offshoot of the Swedish Piratpartiet, and I have a great deal of respect for the platform they’ve been pushing there during the Euros.
re 127. And that is showing yours
@6
Oh, and Mike. I think the thing you must realise is, if it wasn’t for their name, we wouldn’t be talking about them at all.
“The Digital Rights, Electronic Freedom and Intellectual Property Reform Party” doesn’t have the same media-hook, now does it?
6 They might get Johan Hari’s support. He thinks that Somalian pirates are radical socialist freedom fighters.
133 - They might have called themselves the Kopyright Liberation Front. If they had, they’d have had some excellent campaign songs as well.
@132:
No, he’s right in this case. The deliberately provocative name was essential to getting noticed in Sweden. There’s no reason to think the name won’t have a similar media-baiting effect.
They might get Johan Hari’s support. He thinks that pirates are radical socialist freedom fighters.
134 they would be both justified and ancient and could campaign in an ice-cream van
re 129. Roger - Jacky and I have a family get-together today to celebrate our Ruby Wedding. That bottle of Dom Perignon 1973 vintage that you gave me is being chilled for us to pop open in an hour or so.
Many thanks.
@136:
Which is nonsense, of course. They’re radical Libertarian freedom fighters.
127 He has a point but so do you - for many Pirate sums up the image of the Black Pearl and Depp giving his impression of a piratical Keith Richards, so using imagery that invokes those memories would add glamour and excitement. For those benighted souls who weren’t caught into the Pirates of the Caribbean but instead think of the Som@liland ones (banned word) perhaps an invocation of the D’Oyly Carte Pirates would work.
Can’t see them being important though - if perhaps a university town by election came up soon they could get some traction but there are bigger issues at next GE and the EU election is years away. They are more likely to become another Monster Raving Loony Party (sorry Johnloony) than a Green Party.
132. OGH.
Absolutely. As a twenty-something (for the next month or so!) I have a somewhat different perspective on matters.
140. Ted: Can’t see them being important though - if perhaps a university town by election came up soon they could get some traction but there are bigger issues at next GE and the EU election is years away. They are more likely to become another Monster Raving Loony Party (sorry Johnloony) than a Green Party.
I’d agree with that, I think - unless a Pirate Bay-style case turns up in the UK soon.
140 Why is S*mali a banned word?
139 He thinks they run their ships along socialist lines.
@141:
I’m not sure what’s age-sensitive about the Pirate Party’s platform.
Morris Dancer as someone brought up with the tyre smoke of Silverstone washing over my pram, I follow F1 reasonably closely and still have some relatives in the MotorVale which stretches from Brixworth to Didcot.
The perception is that the McLaren has some further improvements for the next race. People were rather startled by Hamilton’s win so are fairly bullish about Valencia for that team whereas Brawn have not found the source of the tyre problem - or at least Brawn says they haven’t and he is believed by those who, unlike me, understand the engineering involved and believe it is a very complex issue.
Valencia is a track that has many of the same characteristics as Hungary, although not as pretty. So the chances are that the Brawns will not do that much better: some but not a lot. Button must still be favourite for the title but it might be close as he may have to wait for later circuits to come to him. The Ferrari might improve but will it be enough? I don’t think so. I believe that team has real internal problems. And Raikkonen’s crash in the rally won’t help nor the talk of paying him off to allow Alonso in. He reputedly can be rather stubborn. Who knows?
Mind you Red bull may well improve too. But I understand why the odds are as they are.
The Cosworth engine - the place is under new US ownership of course which may or may not have something to do with a US team’s entry to F1 - seems to be coming along very nicely, and I am pleased to see the Jimmy’s End outfit back in the game.
By the way, did you see my post a couple of days ago about Schumacher and his ‘neck’. Now there is talk of him coming back later in the season I am ever more sure that it is all a PR stunt by Ferrari and we will not see him anywhere near a race. He would not be competitive. What do you think?
@140:
Oh, you mean *actual* pirates, rather than me downloading complete Series 1 torrents of Only Connect and then watching them back to back on my Mac Mini.
138 Congrats to the both of you.
To be clear Jackie and yourself not Roger
140 their sole impact could be keeping Charles Clarke in his seat on 24% of the vote
Clarke 24%
Lib Dem 23%
Tory 22%
Green 18%
Others 12%
PIRATES! 2%
Picked this up from Politicshome.
Dan Hannan to address Spring Forum
Eric Pickles has responded to ConHome’s letter suggesting Dan Hannan address Tory Conference in the autumn. We shouldn’t wait until then but strike while the iron is hot, he told me.
‘Dan Two Million Views Hannan’ will give a keynote speech at the party’s Spring Conference in Cheltenham, later this month. An extra incentive to apply for a pass if you haven’t already.
Thank you Eric for being a listening Chairman.
Tim Montgomerie
April 02, 2009 at 18:07 in Party conferences | Permalink
Odds?
This new party might get a toe hold in Cornwall - The Pirates of Penzance !!
I’ll get my eye-patch !!
Well congratulations! I knew being a Didsbury man you wouldn’t mistake it for plonk and open it at the ‘Reading Lib/Dem Cenenary evening’
I do think our host is wrong on the naming question, but I don’t think that it’s a question of age. Those who might be tempted to vote for this party will be reminded of it each time that piracy hits the news. For a small party, any publicity is good publicity.
I don’t see the Pirate Party making much impact. Like Yellow Submarine, I think the Greens could be well placed for some favourable publicity in the campaign, just as they managed in Norwich North. The Pirate Party is just too niche to take off in the maelstrom (note the suitably Scandinavian word) of a national general election campaign.
(151 was for Mike)
What the pirate party need is a high profile case with obvious elements of injustice. The case of FACT acting against scopelight for running a video search engine may fit the bill in that it has elements of injustice, it just lacks the high profile part at the moment. The profile could be raised if the appropriate media angle could be found. If the pirate party are raising funds at the rate they claim, the media could be bought.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090706/1713445461.shtml
@152:
I tend to agree. I think the Pirate Party platform appeals to big geeks like me. People who spend most of their time welded to a digital electronic computation unit.
For mundanes, though? Eh, not so much.
144. Martin Coxall: I’m not sure what’s age-sensitive about the Pirate Party’s platform.
My point about age was that whilst the fifty-something’s reaction to the word “pirate” might be to picture this, the twenty-something is more likely to think of this — or even this.
Damn, I fell into the “too many links” trap I think…
Don’t show this to an American it’ll really p**s ‘em off.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/americans-without-health-insurance-attack-plan-to-give-them-health-insurance-200908141981/
Oh! and another thing anymore slagging off the NHS and remember what happened in 1814: yeah you wouldn’t want that again.
Yet a another interesting view from across the pond More failed Labour educational policies!
“Too apathetic to reach for the top
A colleague newly returned from a four-year stint in America cannot believe what has happened to Britain in that time.
She can’t comprehend the endless reality shows which dominate our television channels.
She is bemused by the widespread lack of manners and depressed by the fixation of the young on being famous. She is most upset, however, at what she perceives to be a lack of aspiration.
In America it is not done to look as if you’re not trying. Although it is also cool to want to be rich and famous, it is universally recognised that to do so you first need an education.
While there is always the chance that someone will get a ticket to celebrity via Simon Cowell on American Idol, they are much more likely to achieve the American dream the old-fashioned way - through sheer hard graft.
No wonder the No1 mass-market fiction book in the U.S. at the moment is by a former high school English teacher who has had a 40-year career as a writer.
Meanwhile, the British books chart is topped by Katie Price, aka Jordan, famous for fake breasts. Read it and weep. Actually, don’t bother reading it. Just weep.”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1206653/SANDRA-PARSONS-Its-going-pear-shaped-No-wonder-Gordon-Brown-looks-chipper-.html#ixzz0OFESctND
If anyone’s interested, I’ve just written a post on PB2 on estimating constituency odds from the UNS.
120: tim @ 10:37
Assuming your 6% figure is accurate, that £1.2bn p.a. represents about one sixtyeth of the savings that need to be found.
Scrapping the replacement of Trident will produce smaller annual savings than that. In fact in the fnext five years or so, the critical period, announcing that the Uk will not replace ts nuclear deterrent would lead to so little money being saved that it wouldn’t even be noticed as rounding error.
Similarly, closing down sme of the more uselss quango’s (e.g. WRAP) would save only a few tens of millions each. Hardly a scracth of the £120,000,000,000 of annual savings that are the minimum necessary to balance the books, let alone what is required to free up money for productive use to enable the real economy to grow.
Herein, I think lies a big problem. Any particular proposed saving can be represented as to be so small to make a difference and therefore is it worth doing, especially given that each can be easily represented as having politically unpleasant side effects (all those administrators made redundant etc. etc.), and the Civil Service is very, very good at framing advice to ministers.
The solution must be for the elected members, at HMG and local council level, to refrain from being their department’s spokesman and champion and instead to keep the big picture in mind. After all, “a billion here and a billion there and pretty soon you are talking big money.”
For that to happen will require a revolution in how the mechanics of the UK, and in particular England, is governed. There have been some hints that the Consrevative Party is starting to understand this and explore some ideas of how a new structure could look. Whether they have the courage to actually carry it through is another matter.
163 A couple of threads back, someone here made an excellent comment about local councillors being willing to die in the electoral ditch to defend producer interests - and without a doubt, some ministers do the same thing.
163. Interesting Post. There needs to be a culture change as well - Which has already started - That a minister should no longer simply boast that “We’re spending 100 million pounds on Whatever Whatever”.
There was way too much of that under Labour - the assumption that spending a large round figure on something meant that you were doing good.
Well there’s one thing once Dave is in, they’ll find a use for the Dome!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-brutal-truth-about-americarsquos-healthcare-1772580.html
87. The obvious way to finesse the NHS promise for the Conservatives is just to move loads of other expensive stuff into the Department of Health. The headline figure will go up but the rump health services can be cut.
Andy Cooke @162: Great article, deserves a link…
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2009/08/waves-on-electoral-tide-punters-guide_15.html
110. Good Morning All.
A couple of days ago - maybe 3 - I received an email from YouGov regarding a survey for Brand X. I wrote back to them that I refused to do any more surveys of this sort and only wanted to be refered to Current affairs or Political Polls.
I was therefore amszed to receive yesterday a survey of MY preferences on a range of issues from Newspapers to the internet. This had a £1000 prize draw so I obliged, but will it get me nearer to the notty-gritty of political polls?
notty=nitty
147, cheers for that, Witan
166, coldstone(billy) thanks for pointing that out. The dome is indeed an excellent allegory of the NHS. An excellent original idea that had large amounts of input from the Tories only to be subsequently turned into a bloated, overpriced vanity project by NuLabour. The dome finally had to be handed over to the private sector to make it into a going concern.
“……Background to the Dome project
The Dome project was conceived, originally on a somewhat smaller scale, under John Major’s Conservative government, as a Festival of Britain or World’s Fair-type showcase to celebrate the third millennium. The incoming Labour government elected in 1997 under Tony Blair greatly expanded the size, scope and funding of the project. It also significantly increased expectations of what would be delivered. Just before its opening Blair claimed the Dome would be “a triumph of confidence over cynicism, boldness over blandness, excellence over mediocrity”.[6] In the words of BBC correspondent Robert Orchard, “the Dome was to be highlighted as a glittering New Labour achievement in the next election manifesto”.
However, before its opening, The Dome was excoriated in Iain Sinclair’s diatribe, Sorry Meniscus - Excursions to the Millennium Dome (Profile Books: London 1999, ISBN 1861971796), which accurately forecast the hype, the political posturing and the eventual disillusion. The post-exhibition plan had been to convert The Dome into a football stadium which would last for 25 years: Charlton Athletic at one point considered a possible move but instead chose to redevelop their own stadium. Fisher Athletic were a local team interested in moving to the Dome, however they were considered to have too small a fan base to make this feasible. The Dome was planned to take over the functions performed by the London Arena, after its closure, along with the Croydon Arena which is currently being built. This is the function which The O2 arena has now undertaken………..”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Dome
163 - Fair point but I was making the point that if you want big savings in the NHS then admin, while obviously not being immune, is never going to give you those as the organisation spends a very low percentage on bureaucracy.( in the US its four times the %, haven’t got figures for France)
Yet every phone in and debate on the NHS trots out the same story (plus of course the bollox about tattoo removal on the taxpayer).
If you want big savings in the NHS and across other social services and law enforcement then the first thing to do is decriminalise drugs.
£10billion a year in one hit.
171
Ah! but we shouldn’t forget who the, ‘real father’ was, the man who convinced Tony Blair to go ahead with it.
Former deputy prime minister Michael Heseltine has backed the government’s deal on the future of the Millennium Dome.
Lord Heseltine, who helped hatch the original project as environment secretary, told the BBC the proposed redevelopment announced on Tuesday was a “major, major boost for Greenwich”.
Meridian Delta Ltd will take ownership of the Millennium Dome on a 999-year lease and plan to open it as a 20,000 seat sports and entertainment complex in 2004.
The site was handed over to Meridian for no down-payment, but in a profit-sharing exercise, the public purse is expected to receive “several hundred millions”, according to Transport Secretary Stephen Byers.
‘Good return’
Lord Heseltine told Radio 4’s Today programme: “We’re talking about thousands of homes, public open space, environmental enhancement and shopping facilities.
“It’s a major, major, boost for Greenwich.”
The 20-year joint venture between English Partnerships and Meridian Delta will also provide £4bn of investment, at least 5,000 new homes and around 20,000 new jobs on the 189-acre site around the Dome.
Mr Heseltine said the site had been left derelict for years until the Conservative Government took the initiative and set out a vision similar to the one announced on Tuesday.
tim, I tend to agree with you regarding the decriminalisation of drugs. At face value it appears to have lots going for it. The only real concerns I have regarding it are due to my ignorance of the effects of drugs, never having taken any. Would free access to drugs lead to people becoming unfit to work. The impression given by the various Tv programmes and films seems to be that herion, crack, coke addicts are unable to function normally in society. I genuinely have no idea if that is a fact or TV fiction. Do you have any links or knowledge of that issue?
173 - The opposite.
A heroin addict forced into illegal impure unpredictable supplies is much less likely to hold down a job than someone getting a clean pure predictable prescription from a doctor.
165: Fat Steve @ 11:46
Very true. The idea that spending money automatically equals doing good is one that has to be driven out of public life.
Far too often the reposne of a HMG spokesman to the exposure of some scandal is to merely say how much money ha been spent. A good recent example that springs to mind was the story in the Times(?) that an awful lot of armoured vehicles desperatley needed in Afghanistan were in depots in England. The repsonse from HMG was along the lines of, we have spent £n millon pounds and re committed to providing the best….”. The spend has become the god not what outcome was purchased for the money.
We see the same thing here on this site. Tim, for example, talks of the current NHS budget as being correct for a “civilised country”, but makes no mention of the outcomes obtained.
173. SeanT is the local expert.
There does seem to be anecdotal evidence that drug addicts lead chaotic lives, but correlation is not causation.
Here is one such story that’s worth a look
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stuart-Life-Backwards-Alexander-Masters/dp/0007200374/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250334409&sr=8-1
174, Sorry to appear totally ignorant however, is someone who has access to clean heroin able to function normally in society? For example, millions of people drink alcohol in the evening and are fit for work the following day. Is this true of people who use what are currently known as class A drugs?
Scott, thanks for the link, will give it a whirl.
174. coldstone.
What happened was preferable to doing nothing, but it was still bollocks (until AEG came along).
Tim you need to dig into those figures a little more as they are quango-ist.
In the NHS are the doctors, nurses and other clinicians who do admin included? Do they complete time sheets? or are they ‘deemed’ to do no such thing?
Are the central government admin costs included? Department of Health? In full including pensions and departmental refurbishment as an amortised figure?
Do they include in ‘admin’ all the real admin costs including pension provision for all staff?
Do they include PFI building and the cost of administration? Or is that off set to the Department of Health?
Do they include the cost of temporary staff recruitment fees and contracted in services or are they, for nurses and doctors, not counted as admin costs?
They are just a few examples of the type of exclusions which would not surprise me even if they claim to be following international accountancy standards.
Been there seen some of that… but not in the NHS, to be sure.
173. I was a functioning heroin addict for about fifteen years, so I have a little inside knowledge! (I also did all the other drugs - ALL of them)
It is perfectly possible to be both a normal member of socety and a fairly serious heroin addict. It’s easier to be a good citizen and a junkie, for instance, than it is to be a good citizen and an alcoholic.
Heroin gives you an instant blissful rush, and then leaves you in a state of mellow contentment for hours. In the latter stage, you can accomplish all manner of tedious but important tasks quite well: the more tedious the better, some might say.
I knew some airline pilots that did heroin, they said it was the perfect drug for their job: keeping them calm but alert, and relieving the intercontinental tedium.
Think about that on your holiday flight to Barbados.
Most of the problems with heroin stem from 1. personal neglect by the addict (not eating properly) - sensible people can avoid this easily. 2. running out of heroin and stealing - prescribing the drug would cure this, and 3. taking adulterated or poisonous supplies - again, drugs-on-the-NHS would cure this, the state could guarantee purity.
The big big problem with heroin on the state is that it leaves the addict mired in his addiction. If you keep giving them drugs the junkies will remain forever hooked. And heroin in the end does cramp ambition and imagination and the nobler emotions: its a sad way to spend your entire life.
114. ukpaul August 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am
“There is scope for a centrist/leftist libertarian* leaning party”
Very true, and your point that libertarian!=right wing is spot on.
For me the libertarian/authoritarian axis is ultimately more important than the left/right one and I find that, at present, I couldn’t vote for any of the British centre-left parties, even if I wanted that kind of economic policy (which I don’t, right now, but might in the future).
In principle, I find the Pirate Party interesting. In practice I tend to agree with those upthread who say that their branding won’t work here. However, their presence may have an influence on their rivals.
Of course, PR would change everything. (Sorry to mention the forbidden subject.)
125 Morris, I’ve followed you in backing Vittel to win the European Grand Prix. Boylesport’s price of 3/1, i.e. a one in four chance, is cracking value IMHO and betfair’s price, net of their comm’n, is slightly better still. I agree that Raikonnen’s price of 14/1 with Hills is also exceptional value - some of the other bookies have him as short as 8/1. Instead, however, I’ve decided to lay Button at 3.2/1, he should be at least twice this price, based on recent performance. At best I see him scrambling two or three points.
172: tim @ 12:03
Legalise drugs? Absolutely! I am not sure what this measure would do to the health budget, but in terms of crime and the prisons it would slash the necessary expenditure. I did some research a few years ago and found that 80% of prisoners in Lewes prison were either drug users or had been sentenced for a drug related crime, 80%.
In addition, a carefully thought through legalisation programme and addict treatment regime would remove the power of the drug lords and the violence and corruption of civic society that their vast profits engender.
A British American Cocaine Limited would lead to safer streets, far fewer burglaries, increased profits for retail businesses, a huge decrease in the prison population, far less corruption in the police (and elsewhere, including politics) and in the long run far fewer addicts (think tobacco).
183 - The big big problem with heroin on the state is that it leaves the addict mired in his addiction. If you keep giving them drugs the junkies will remain forever hooked.,/i>
Do you not think that the fact that you are in contact with the medical services for the drug means that a properly designed programme to get off the stuff has a better chance of working?
How did you get off it?
172 tim - as someone who has never been even a recreational drug user [bar of course copious amounts of legal alcohol], I have no problem with the legalisation of cocaine, cannabis and ecstasy based on what I have read and anecdotally.
The war on drugs is pointless, it creates a market/drives crime-ill health such as HIV and it’s not taxed.
Those who jump up and down about it would never accept banning cars on suburban roads which account for a lot more deaths annually I suspect. Or alcohol. Or even tobacco.
183:The big big problem with heroin on the state is that it leaves the addict mired in his addiction. If you keep giving them drugs the junkies will remain forever hooked. And heroin in the end does cramp ambition and imagination and the nobler emotions: its a sad way to spend your entire life.
I can’t help but have a fear if heroin and other drugs were made legal, this could become a lifestyle choice for thousands trapped on sink states across the country. It’s already the case with alcohol to a certain extent.
coldstone(billy) shame that your selective cutting and pasting let you down today. “…………Mr Heseltine said the site had been left derelict for years until the Conservative Government took the initiative and set out a vision similar to the one announced on Tuesday.
by coldstone August 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm………..”
Pretty much backs up my point that a good tory idea was taken and then comprehensively screwed up by NuLabour. You should go away and do some more remedial cut and pasting, if you had you would not have shot yourself in the foot. (not that a rootin, shootin, military man such as yourself would of course)
The Yookay is not Sweden.
The Lib Dems will suffer a little in a handful of constituencies, but I’d be surprised if the Pirates cost them a seat.
173. tim August 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
“If you want big savings in the NHS and across other social services and law enforcement then the first thing to do is decriminalise drugs.”
I quite agree.
(What’s going on? Is it hug-a-libertarian day?)
seant, thanks very informative. Obviously will have to do a great deal of background reading on this subject. My current and previous jobs mean that I have had virtually no contact with drug use/users, so first hand experiences such as yours are invaluable.
161 - that was how I felt on going back to the UK from the US too, and that was almost a decade ago!
190
Then try this one then.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/politics/51403.stm
I actually totally opposed the dome, thought it was a bad Tory idea that Labour made worse.
If we were going to have it, it should have been built in Birmingham the centre of the country, where transport links are far superior.
tim: “Do you not think that the fact that you are in contact with the medical services for the drug means that a properly designed programme to get off the stuff has a better chance of working?”
No, not really. Heroin is so nice if the life of the addict is made more comfortable - by giving them pure amounts thereof - it is quite likely many would choose to stay on smack in perpetuity. No matter how much the nurses nag them.
This is especially true for people with no ambition, or talent, or money, or prospects. Heroin makes their lives much more bearable - almost idyllic. Why come off?
“How did you get off it?”
NA. But I was also motivated. I do have talent and ambition and prospects, and I was starting to desperately resent my friends’ greater success (”I could be doing as good as them if I wasn’t a junkie”) - and I was feeling desolate about my own moral decline - i.e. stealing and lying, which were caused by the drug and its sporadic unavailability.
So eventually I managed to quit, and stay quit.
Legalising drugs is a very attractive idea, on the face of it (I think it might be worth trying) but there are also huge downsides.
You WOULD be condemning many people, especially the poor, to a life of addiction. But many of the poor might not care: just gimme the gear.
Difficult.
And I really have to go now - just popped on briefly - I have two daughters to see and five chapters to rewrite before I go to Bangkok tomorrow.
Kapkap.
183
So my view that drugs should not be tolerated on any level, and summary execution for drug dealers should be the norm wouldn’t meet with your approval.
As far as the pirate branding thing goes, it’s not a negative thing amongst younger people. A chap stood for the University of York SU Presidency a year or so ago, who originally ran as a joke, under the name Mad Cap’n Tom Scott, and dressed as a pirate.
He ended up winning after a record turnout, and has been to my knowledge, pretty competent and effective.
Anyway, as a publicity tool, the piracy angle can work pretty well.
The principal objection I’d have to drug liberalisation would be addiction, but nicotine is addictive too, by some measures more so than heroin. A secondary issue is that smoking anything is likely to cause cancer, smoke being full of polyaromatic compounds which are typically cancer-causing.
I don’t like monopolies, on principle, but allowing the tobacco companies to sell other drugs, under much the same kind of regime as tobacco, could work - no public advertising or consumption, and no creating a public nuisance.
As for those sink estates, if people are in a drugged stupor, they’re not roaming the streets, smashing windows, so that’s another saving for the plus column.
90/120/163/173 etc.
Something you have to consider when proposing to cut NHS management costs is that you may just end up with less effective management and higher overall costs (or, to be more exact, lower efficiency).
OK, I’ll declare an interest. My girlfiend is a manager in a PCT. She routinely saves the taxpayer many times the cost of employing her because she doesn’t blindly agree to sign any cheque the GPs in her area wave at her. (She seems somehow to be on good terms with them, inspite of this.) You could replace her with someone on half her salary would who would just sign anything. Honestly, that wouldn’t save any money.
The popular idea that managers=bad, clinicians=good in the NHS is nonsense. There are good and bad (some very bad) people in both camps. Plus the camps overlap, as some clinicians also manage.
coldstone(billy)195, thanks another excellent link with some classic statements.
“…..The Minister without Portfolio, Peter Mandelson, has told MPs the Millennium Dome is “on time and on budget” as he faced Conservative criticisms of “secrecy and arrogance” in the House of Commons………….” So spot the fib in there. Plus secrecy and arrogance, somethings never change do they?
Bearing in mind this item is from 1998 you think they would have got over this charge by now wouldn’t yo?
“……….Opening the debate, Christopher Fraser, a Conservative member of the Commons culture select committee, said the government had “dithered and delayed” over the project………”
So in precis, the link you provide shows Heseltine was lied to to obtain agreement with Mandelson and the Government has always been vulnerable to the accusation of dither and delay.
197
Coldstone
Until I see celebs being jailed for drugtaking and their premises searched often, I disbelive we are serious on drugs.
Why? Well the drugs barons no doubt support anti liberalisation laws for obvious reasons.. And they have loadsofmoney.
If I were a politicians serious about legalising drugs, I would carefully investigate the finances of those opposed to liberalisation - especially politicians .
197. No, I don’t want the landlord of my local to be executed, summarily or otherwise thanks.
202
As someone whose totally convinced that Libertarianism is just a cloak for those who wish to justify disgusting behaviour.
If I had to choose between 197 and seant’s view, I’d choose 197.
LD are doomed because of the PP and of course my interventions!
Pieces of eight are short at the LD camp due to the Michael Brown donation plus the sleaze of Lord Rennard!
LD could well lose seats because of this!
Indeed i think the LD leader could suffer in SHEFFIELD HALLAM!
203
As my local has been taken over by someone who has ruined it, I couldn’t say that.
Alcohol is a legal drug, although I don’t think we take alcohol abuse seriously enough.
coldstone(billy) I’d give up now if I was you. Your cut and paste ninja skills have deserted you and you are exposing yourself as some form of tinpot dictator with your opinions on drugs.
204. So you agree with yourself? How reassuring.
197. coldstone August 15th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Coldstone but you admited you lived in a house about 30 years ago with a drug dealer - Why did you not grass them up (No pun intended!
).
Coldstone = Barnicle bottomed hypercrite!
I don’t know enough about heroin to comment, but I can see no reason why tobacco and alcohol can be legal but cannabis not.
SHEFFIElD HALLAM is a university seat is it not? I should imagine a prime candidate for the PP! Indeed if they get some celebrity for the PP to contest the seat for the PP and Jeremy clarkson for the Tories Nick Clegg will be doomed - DOOMED to defeat!
A case of this:
http://nickcleggneilkinnock.blogspot.com/2009/08/clegg-has-election-blow.html
209
I certainly did, and seeing what went on confirmed me in my anti-drugs view. In the same way that service life turned me into a very modest drinker.
p.s.
barnicle?
207
I’ve never hid my authoritarian views, believing as I do, if you let people do what they want, thats exactly what they do.
Martin, thanks for the reminder, rejoice in the hilarity that is coldstone.
178
They lived in the same house, in fact there were two of them, (Irish guys) and I didn’t inform.
It was an amazing place to live, the drug squad had it under constant watch, there was always a man walking a dog, on the green outside, it was always the same dog, but a different man. They changed shift in a car around the corner, that was the most walked dog in Croydon. You could tell they were drug squad they ironed their jeans, sharp creases in the front.
by coldstone March 13th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
214
I’m humbled. I didn’t realise I had such a fan, is it sexual?
Just received an Ipsos Mori poll on swine flu.16 questions. Paid for by West Midlands NHS.
212. I thought you were in the Navy!
Sorry if i got the wrong service!
Yes the services can do that to people with reguard to drinking - I suppose it is the release.
Some of the folk i see walking round and about look hadded like they have been on that crystal stuff - Nasty drug as they all are of course!
Personally i dont agree with legalising drugs them but each to their own. I saw what it did to people in halls of residence - Crikey one bloke used to smoke grass and thought a Vaccum Cleaner was a darlek and a black bin bag had a void in it coming to get him! Another bloke who did drugs ended up throwing potatoes at people out of a window - He was sectioned.
Chelsea 0-1 Hull!
coldstone(billy) is it sexual? No, do you have something that you would like to tell us about? Has it been niggling in the back of your head that you weren’t like all the other men in the Army. Does this explain your obsession with physical appearance?
185, [apologies for slow reply], aye, Button is definitely a lay at those kind of odds.
Hope Vettel wins. I rather dislike tipping because I loathe losing my own money, and losing other people’s theirs isn’t much better.
I think Button’s performance depends on Brawn. If they sort or half-sort the car he’s a realistic podium contender. If not, he isn’t. Witan’s post suggests he has little chance.
We love the NHS has a link which ends up with The Labour Party.
http://www.labour.org.uk/welovetheNHS
Imagine my surprise when I found it on you tube.
1-1. Dammit. That was fun while it lasted.
The best thing going for the Pirate Party, is that currently there’s no organisation defending file sharing. Whenever they have an article about it on the news saying its costing those downtrodden record executives £212 quadrillion a year, nobody is got on to challenge those figures. Now news channels will feel they have to get the Pirate Party on to talk about it.
221 - It was started by Graham Linehan, all parties have now jumped on supporting the sentiment. Cameron and Lansley were effective yesterday in stopping any thought that it was a partisan effort.
NEW THREAD
Interesting article. I don’t see them making much impact in local or Westminster elections, but I could see them registering as an option in the Euro elections in the future. Who knows, they might encourage more younger voters to turn out and vote at them.
213
“I’ve never hid my authoritarian views, believing as I do, if you let people do what they want, thats exactly what they do.”
And it is that view, based on ignorance and prejudice, which helps make you a thoroughly nasty person who should not be allowed with in a million miles of any sort of authority. Dictators through history have used similar justifications for their excesses.
Sorry I’m so late in joining this debate, but the sheer number of interviews I’ve been doing about the Party launch has meant I’ve had very little time for eating, sleeping or much else.
I’m surprised to see so many references to us picking up Lib Dem voters, I’m seeing the strongest response from young people who haven’t bothered voting before, everyone in the computer industries (surprise surprise) and a smattering of older Labour defectees who care little about file sharing but see govt. surveillance as reason enough to change allegiance. I can’t recall anyone saying they jumped from the Lib Dems though, but this might be because we are focusing on people who know what the Pirate Party is already, and were waiting for someone else to set it up.
As for the cries of ‘it will only work in Sweden’, the Germans started a few years behind the Swedes, but their membership growth is following the same curve, they achieved 0.7% in the EU election (enough to land them big govt. funding) and had an MP defect to them. They achieved all this without a Pirate Bay style trial… the ace up our sleeve here in the UK is that we WILL have one, the OiNK trial is scheduled for January.
I need sleep now, but I’ll be back with individual replies to points raised above as soon as I can.