Have Labour and Burnham screwed up the Hannan opportunity?
August 15th, 2009
Why did they fail to capitalise on the Tory-Hannan open goal?
The events of the past couple of days have underlined what is becoming increasingly apparent: Labour never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
I’ve been trying to do a piece on this them but have just discovered the Soho Politico blog which is making all the points I was trying to write but only better.
“Labour should have just sat back and watched the reaction to Hannan from the sidelines, and reaped the benefit. They would have been the real victors of the Hannan affair if they had resisted the urge to meddle. That is because, prior to Labour’s involvement, the issue was being framed by the media as a spontaneous uprising by all the decent people of this county against an evil Tory who consorts with the American nutjob right.
People would have worried about just how representative Hannan’s views are behind closed doors in Tory circles. They would have reminded themselves that, although David Cameron talks a pretty liberal game for the cameras, there is evidence that, like his leadership predecessors, he is sometimes forced to make strategic capitulations to the hard-right to stop them from making trouble for him…
..Instead, however, Labour has taken ownership of the fightback against Hannan, first by adding excruciating tweets from the Browns and Andy Burnham to Twitter using the welovethenhs hashtag, second by launching an official Labour campaign encouraging more people to take part in welovethenhs, and third by repeatedly challenging Cameron to disown Hannan. Because of this, the Hannan story is increasingly being recast as a run-of-the-mill Labour vs Tory dingdong.
There will now be no widespread questioning of the depth of the Conservative commitment to the NHS, precisely because Labour is now pushing the line that there ought to be widespread questioning. The Hannan affair is now slipping out of the news agenda… The Conservatives have been allowed to move on, and that marks an epic strategy fail for Labour.”
Mike Smithson
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Worth a try
2, Why not?
We can only judge whether the intervention was epic win or epic fail, as the ghastly modern parlance has it, by the poll numbers. It’s the sort of thing that really should see a CON to LAB swing.
What exactly was the problem with what Hannan said? Was it simply where and when he said it? It seems odd that papers which for months (years) have filled their pages with stories of dirty wards, old people left to die in their own excrement, MRSI killing hundreds, waste of money on vast bureaucracies, political correctness gone made, etc., etc., should suddenly come over all funny over someone saying similar things.
I suspect that they have failed, in part, but it was never a game-changing event in the first place.
5. I don’t know how “in part” crept in. I should have said “completely.”
Burnham looked shifty like Richard Nixon in those interviews on that day - He screwed it up with other Labour MPs chipping in with such partisan interviews in which they did not have a positive message.
Indeed it says much about Labour that Gordon Brown can only chip in via a tweet and of course now they have given this electronic tactic away!
Silly Billies! 
We will be watching for the Tweets and other bullshit!
Not convinced by this argument. If Labour hadn’t engaged in it I don’t think it would have lasted more than 24 hours, and we’d have been debating “Why has demoralised Labour let another chance slip by?” However, it’s worth noting that page 2 of most of the papers today was not about Hannan but about the link of other senior Tories to the US anti-Obama campaigners - this makes it a lot harder to say “oh, it’s just that eccentric Hannan” (and the eccentric Helmer, my Tory MEP). Reading the stories, it’s not clear to me how they all came across this as once - successful media work by someone?
4 archroy. I think it was him saying that the NHS was a ‘60 year mistake’ - or at least being reported as saying that - that was problematic. If he had said that the NHS wasn’t perfect and neede reform to deliver better outcomes but that the basic principle was sound he would have been echoing Lansley and would tie in with the press stories you mention.
Sorry i meant Richard Nixon in those Presedential debates - I think “Burnham” has screwed up putting down a marker, post Labour defeat leadership contest.
4. Strange things (politically) happen in August.
I’ve said it repeatedly: Burnham is almost the epitome of a lightweight. He isn’t especially intelligent, he isn’t quick-witted, he does seem like a personally nice chap but that merely serves to blunt any savaging he might attempt.
Never thought I was quick enough on the trigger! But since I was, and since Mike asks a question I think the Labour reaction probably was counterproductive. Despite being very much a Tory I thought Hannan’s comments were pretty silly and also, less surprisingly, that the Labour reaction to them was a bit silly too. Cancelling cock-ups I’d have thought. As others have said on earlier threads, it also provided a good chance for Cameron to appear on TV so perhaps on balance Cameron might even get a few extra votes out of the incident. I’m sure there are plenty of people here who disagree completely!
Not sure how much blame Burnham should take, but Brown should be hanging his head in shame for allowing stuff like this from the previous thread to see the light of day. The one thing Brown appears to display any skill in, is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
“….If this has been posted before, apologies, but here is Gordon Browns open letter to the #welovethenhs twitter followers:
http://www.labour.org.uk/gordon-brown-open-letter-welovethenhs-campaign
by C August 15th, 2009 at 6:26 pm…..”
Why did they fail to capitalise on the Tory-Hannan open goal?
It is obvious: The labour party are incompetent. Who is running the country? Who is overseeing the armed forces?
Think about that,
8. Nick Palmer MP
I was amused by those articles on that, so now the opposition Tories are responible for what individual GOP politicians say!
Not been funny but that is more than weak and you have blown in Broxtowe the GOP for Nick Palmer re-election committee!
Cameron has also helped by being taticaaly brilliant and turning the argument to his advantage by restating his committment to the NHS
Peter Spencer on the Boulton&Co blog - Silly .. silly .. silly !!!
“Daniel Who-he is big in America because his political mouth is wider than the Forth Bridge.
But whether he’s big in Tory policymaking circles is yet another seriously silly question.
Between them both main parties have a sprinkling of Trotskyites and troglodytes … whose influence is inversely proportional to their enthusiasm.
Of course NHS reform will play big in the general election. Labour WILL say only they love it, and their record in government proves it.
And the Conservatives WILL have to fend off suspicion that all they really want is to cut costs.
But the suggestion that David Cameron agrees with Mr Hannan’s long held and oft-expressed view — that the only place for our National Treasure is the trashcan — is palpably absurd.
Nonetheless, all sides have been having a bit of a testo-fest with it today.”
Peter Spencer sums up this whole silly summer season story IMHO.
In fact, we are in danger of missing the bigger picture. Forget Labour being twats, Hannan just hung himself by his own petard within the Conservative party with that interview at this point in the political calender. He damaged his own credibility far more than Labour could Cameron’s on the issue of the NHS.
8. NPMP: the link of other senior Tories to the US anti-Obama campaigners
Which has been less successful, so far, than the stories pretending the Tories are anti-Semites…
I agree with Nick. If they had done nothing most posters on here would be incredulous that they had let a chance to attack the Tories slip by. I think this falls into the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” category of attacks on Labour that we increasingly see.
It has certainly exposed the vein of opinion within the Conservative party that is actively anti-NHS. About time too.
8. “Helmer, my Tory MEP”
Glad to see you have at least one sensible person representing Broxtowe people.
8.NickP, Helmer is another one who hasn’t done himself any favours either.
19.”the link of other senior Tories to the US anti-Obama campaigners”
Oh dear, are Labour yet again trying to play the Obama crew are our friends and they don’t want to play with you routine?
20 What about the vein of opinion within the Labour party that supports nationalisation of telecomms, water, gas, electricity, coal, steel etc? Parties are by their very nature coalitions of opinion which accomodate diversity.
11 Re Wales and AWS re-paste - 297 Indeed I find it hard to argue with this from Wells -
“I think the old Clwyd seats are going to fall.
Clwyd West is already gone and won’t be retaken.
The Vale is pretty much lost to Labour already.
Delyn is teetering and Hanson on the slide.
Clwyd South was starting to crack and now Labour are successfully finishing it off by their own actions there!
Labour would be wise to re-group and try and save Delyn and Clwyd S at least and that’s going to be hard. Alyn & Deeside is their only certain hold and that will be after a big drop in their vote.”
I would have thought Labour would still have the words of the late Peter Law ringing in their ears ” This is what you get when you don’t listen to people.”
Had Labour sat back and said nothing I doubt this story would still be running. Hannan made his comments, the story developed legs via Twitter, and the front bench were forced to denounce him.
Yes Burnham is lightweight, but not as badly as Lansley. And the story has now moved on - we’re now looking at Tory links to Republican nutters and have disgruntled Tories saying Hannan did nothing wrong.
We’re having a very public argument between the “NHS is rubbish” wing of the Tory party and the “no, we’re actually in favour of the NHS” leadership. How exactly is this bad for Labour?
Dan said nothing new there. He was only reiterating his words which he co-wrote in “The Plan” (On sale at Amazon for 9.95, 345 in their current bestseller list) He make a strong rebuttal in the Telegraph today which is worth reading.
It is the silly season and there is little about to fill the papers. Even the bloggers have gone away!
20. Monty: I think this falls into the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” category of attacks on Labour that we increasingly see.
The way for Labour to avoid them is to be less incompetent.
19. Yes the Anti-Obama bit sounds as if it comes straight from Gordon Brown!
I really do wonder about Gordon Brown, he pretends to be on holiday but this is Gordon Brown in his element. The Tweet on the NHS, the linking the Tories to the GOP and the Tories being against Obama!
I seriously worry about the madman in charge of our country, not for his sake but ours. Does he not realise Obama is not worth a single changed vote? 
Its like all those articles from socialist rags that claim Obama said this or that about Cameron. Who gives a toss about what Obama thinks! Just for the record, whilst Obama comes across as a likeable person - I think he is the utter lightweight. Going for Burgers with his Cabinet or haveing a Beer with a bloke he critised on a judicial decision is hardly the stuff of heavy weight.
In that it showed Labour are short of talent-yes. Otherwise he wasn’t even a bit player.
The questions the electorate will ask themselves before the next election are ‘who in difficult times will best manage the economy’ and ‘who is most likely to maintain public services-especially health’.
Hannan has raised a doubt which was already already at the back of the electorates mind and which Labour and the unions will exploit unmercifully till the next election. It’s just a pity Brown hasn’t the talent to exploit it to the full
FPT - Roger.
Two reasons, one though their music, two -too many nights out in South Manchester & the City Centre in the eighties and nineties.
Vini Reilly is one of the great unsung geniuses of British music
4. Did Hannan actually say anything that was factually untrue? NP MP is right to the extent that there is a certain small but definite minority thirst, in my experience, in the Conservative party, for dynamiting the NHS just because it gives lefties a diamond cutter of a hard on.
Monty”…….I agree with Nick. If they had done nothing most posters on here would be incredulous that they had let a chance to attack the Tories slip by………….”
What people on here are incredulous about is how ineffective Labour have been with this issue. Nobody is saying that this was an opportunity that should not have been seized by Labour. The problem is they made a total cock of it. Burnham with his pathetic unpatriotic attack and Brown with his stupid tweet (and private dental care)and open letter to all you tweeters out there failed miserably. Nick people on here tease you about losing your seat, but there is truth in it if this is the best that your team can come up with given such ammunition. How can it possibly be that Cameron appears to have come out best from this when the cards were stacked against him?
24. “Parties are by their very nature coalitions of opinion which accomodate diversity.”
Yes, they are. But there are arguably more MEPs & parliamentary candidates on the extreme wing of the Conservative party than there are on the extreme wing of the Labour party.
Being in opposition means you are not under the microscope so much. I think that the NHS incident has woken up the Tory leadership that they might be just a little more scrutinised over the coming months as they get nearer power.
And the trouble with not vocalising any actual policies means that it is so much easier to fill in the gaps with guys such as Hannan.
8 NPMP - You would say that though, wouldn’t you.
“the link of other senior Tories to the US anti-Obama campaigners -”
Sorry, are we really meant to be shocked that the Tories have links to the Republican party on a variety of issues?
Or are you saying that it’s extreme simply to be in opposition to Obama?
26.”Yes Burnham is lightweight, but not as badly as Lansley.”
Ian, that is just the point, Lansley and quite a few of the Conservative Shadow Cabinet look and sound like Ministers on top of their brief compared to the likes of Burnham&Co. And its definitely got more noticeable since Brown’s last reshuffle. Part of the reason for this has got to be down to the fact that they have been in their posts for so long now, and Cameron’s not been under any real pressure to change his team.
Underestimate that very strong card during the GE campaign at your peril.
29. I agree. (With Roger! Again!) Those people who claim that Cameron has somehow turned NHSgate into a positive using political judo need to lay off the blue kool aid.
New Labour are fiddlers.
Can I ask a question as a simple soul? Is Cameron too liberal, or even protean, for the Tory establisment?
33. Monty August 15th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Thats like saying Dennis Skinner or Diane Abbot should not be MPs. I actually think you are wrong, any party needs its chareters and it shows how poor the political debate has become if so and so of X party cannot say X about such and such.
As a country we have a huge spectrum of views. Why should not what you call the extreme have an individual to articlate that view. I dont agree with Hannan and i dont agree with Skinner or Abbott but i would fight tooth and claw to give them the free speech to give their views.
Honestly, people wonder why the BNP is on the rise and the “Liberal Middle” just does not realise that others need their opinions representing as much as others.
32. I’m not sure Labour have done that badly. They kept the news cycle going on the Hannan anti-NHS stuff. That’s probably enough. The welovethenhs Twitter feed speaks volumes. It really is the 3rd rail of British politics and the Tories stepped on it in recent days.
33 The assertion that the Conservatives do no have “any actual policies” is simply facile and untrue.
36. Not much to choose between them. Lansley = provincial undertaker. Burnham = junior lecturer in social studies. It’s a withering indictment of our political climate that either, let alone both of them, could get near a seat in the cabinet.
Andy Burnham lost my respect when he suggested that it was unpatriotic to hold an unapproved opinion of the NHS. I completely disagree with Daniel Hannan on this but he has a right to his opinion. The Health Secretary may well come to regret his words when he is in Opposition.
Evening All,
There is a predictability about the way these political ’storms in a teacup’ play out.
A Conservative says or does something contentious that angers the right of the party which threatens the ’sacred cow’ status of one of Labours prized ‘jewels in the crown’.
Labour scream hysterically about splits in the Conservative Party and the evil Conservative ‘Hyde’ personality hiding in the shadows.
The Conservatives then disprove Labours ridiculous assertions and denounce the originator of the views.
And then the topic is returned to mainstream debate.
The result - the originator becomes a rallying symbol for right of centre thinkers. The left is unable to use what has been there most effective political ploy over recent decades (disingenuous over-reaction and smearing whenever anyone dares even mention an issue) and in some cases has had to move their position more toward the electorates thinking (e.g. immigration) and the Conservative Party comes out of it with their reputation relatively in tact.
Funny how over the last three years we have had a number of these spats (Grammargate, Davis and 42 days and now the NHS). Perhaps this has been all about breaking down the ‘fortresses’ that Labour have built around certain issues?
Poll Alert
Con 43%, Lab 26%, LD 19%.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/08/tories-17-ahead-in-sunday-mirror-icm-poll.html
39. Of course, I’m not suggesting that they shouldn’t exist. I’m just pointing out that Cameron would rather they didn’t exist when he’s 9/10ths into the door of Downing St.
Poll alert ICM
Con 43, Lab 26, Lib 19
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/08/tories-17-ahead-in-sunday-mirror-icm-poll.html
Let’s face it Mike - it doesn’t matter who or what Labour do or say, you’ll still find a way of slanting your newspiece against them. You have become so stuck in your anti-Labour rhetoric that all objectivity has gone out the window. Because Labour will probably go on to lose regardless, you will get away with it but good journalism, balanced reporting and fair-minded objectivity it is not.
Sad to see, and sad to have to say.
panurge, care to expand. The issue is off the front pages in one day. Lansley has been all over TV making Burnham look weak and ill informed. He has managed to corner Burnham on at least two occasions to my knowledge were Lansley could say the tories have ring fenced NHS spending and Burnham was reduced to waffling about Pre budget reports and future budgets. In the grand scheme of thing the tories came out of this far better than they should have been allowed to, regardless of what the facts of the original Hannan interview were.
45/47.
C +2, Lab -1, LD -1.
That’s +2, -1, -1 on the last ICM, I think.
Lol for Gordon.
41. Well, they are certainly keeping very quiet on the subject of their policies. Shouting from the rooftops they ain’t.
Hoping that your opponents continually screw-up is fine at first but as that memorable US campaign slogan had it:
“Where’s the beef?”
What this episode might have done is give a bit more energy to the Labour grassroots. This is purely anecdotal, and it may be too son to tell if it will last, but I know some Labour people who, having been previously completely demoralised and dismissive of the next election, have in recent days been a bit more determined.
48 - gigantic horse alert.
Best C score, any pollster, since 9 May (BPIX).
Best C score, ICM, since 26 March.
Tim. I knew one of them (and the Factory Records crowd). I thought the band were too obscure to be known much outside Didsbury!
They failed to capitalise because of Cameron’s effective positioning previously. On the TV yesterday it was Cameron and Lansley who were came across as leading the attack on Hannan’s madcap ideas.
The article is incorrect, it isn’t a tory/labour ding dong, it’s an everyone vs Hannan ding dong and labour let that happen.
Haha.
Bad luck, socialists.
48 - I do think you completely misunderstand pbc and Mike’s provocative leads. We’re not about ‘on one side this, on the other that’.
We approve of this poll quite a bit ;). We await when it was taken. Could that provide the definitive answer to Mike’s question, and indeed a vindication of his opion.
Labour’s feeble efforts will have zero impact on the polls - not least because they are using the Alistair Campbell-Peter Mandelson playbook from 1996 - totally out of date and useless against an agile and gifted operator like Cameron.
So long as Dan Hannan remains in the Conservative Party (not his natural home IMHO) then I think it’s extremely clear that the hand grenade remains in the rabbit hutch whenever the lights are switched off - but having said that I doubt that it’ll explode this side of the GE.
59. John O: We await when it was taken.
Indeed.
The last five ICM/Sunday Mirror polls have all had fieldwork ending on the Friday before publication.
61. All Hannon needs is a lesson in tact.
61. What would his natural home be then???
63
What he needs is a lesson on how to manage his ego.
The economic catatrophy Labour have unleashed needs severe punishment, not least because i am one of the victims!
65, almost all politicians barring Cameron, Osborne and Darling could use that lesson.
57.
The article is incorrect, it isn’t a tory/labour ding dong, it’s an everyone vs Hannan ding dong and labour let that happen.
You wish. You shouldn’t believe your personal dislike for Hannan is shared by the country as a whole. Nor should you believe that everyone believes the #welovethenhs nonsense either…………
The last poll in the Sunday Mirror was way back in November (42-31-19) - so in nine months the change has been +1, -5, nc.
68. I would be ecstatically happy with DH as PM.
67. Morris Dancer August 15th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Hague doesn’t come across as arrogant to me!
In contrast ED Balls is dreadful!
But one should not really contrast someone like Hague with Ed Balls because Hague is many time the Man of ED Balls.
Although this poll points to a Tory victory, not everybody believes Labour will be defeated:
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
So once again despite the hysterical efforts of the dwindling band of cesspit dwellers and Labour media sycophants, the polls are unmoved…and even worsen for the government.
You are obviously highly selective in what you read here.
I question all parties, including my own the LDs, when I think they have got their communication/campaigning strategies wrong.
This story is based largely on the thoughts of a Labour-leaning blogger.
70. Gaz.
Not quite yet, someone needs to turn the disastrous direction of this country around before someone of the Hannanite ethos takes the reigns. Down the line I would also be very happy to see someone of Hannan’s ethos leading the country.
ICM Aug 15 2008
Con 44% Lab 29% Lib 19%
ICM Aug 15 2009
Con 43% Lab 26% Lib 19%
Twelve months under the bridge, and the position gets worse for Labour.
Nick Palmer have you asked Gordon Brown what he thought of his private dental work, the Mirror claimed that he had been a private patient with the same dentist for over 20 years, was this an exageration or mistruth by the journalists? I haven’t found an apology by The Mirror for misleading the public.
“Mandy joint second among Labour voters 4 leader.”
Sunday Mirror/ICM Poll
72 - it’s awesome; I actually start laughing at a mere glance at the link itself - without even needing to click on it
43. Antifrank.
“Andy Burnham lost my respect when he suggested that it was unpatriotic to hold an unapproved opinion of the NHS”
I don’t think he was saying it was unpatriotic to discuss the NHS but to rubbish it on US TV. Rather like it would be if he rubbished our armed services or suggested on a foreign TV station that our government was corrupt. None of these would bother me but I’m surprised Tories who spend so much time draped in the flag cant see it.
75. I’m down with that. We need to start a DH4PM hashtag twitter war.
56 -Watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2GFGsFdURU
And tell me
a.Has a Les Paul ever been put to a more ethereal use.
b.Why Vini Reilly didn’t become one of the best film soundtrack artists ever.
Did you frequent the Hacienda?
80 - Bob Ainsworth goes on TV and gives interviews rubbishing the general population of Britain. What Dan Hannan did was a drop in the ocean compared with what the moustachioed dunce does on an almost daily basis.
72. For a moment there you nearly got me — “Who could think they will win from here?” Then I noticed the URL, I don’t even need to open it with it having become so familiar.
Gaz at 61: “What would his natural home be then???”
Seems pretty obvious to me that he’s a UKIPer to all intent and purpose.
80. That’s not very internationalist of you Roger?
68 - Where’s the support for Hannan apart from the right fringe of the tory party and UKIPers (where Hannan would be more at home). You seem to have mislaid a whole day’s news and commentary!
Hannan made a fair attack on Brown but he should know that British toryism is a very different animal to American small government rightists.
70 - Hannan = Hatton.
Part Narcissus, part Icarus.
84. glw. Me too.
OGH’s post asking for a limit on linking to that article is in itself a classic…
78. More good news for Tories.
“68. I would be ecstatically happy with DH as PM.”
That doesn’t surprise me.
85. The UKIP position on most things other then Europe *should* be the Conservative position. But then I am not a Conservative, i am a Thatcherite. I am certainly no cap doffing one nation wet.
Uh oh, Tsonga broken in the 4th game of the 1st set. Shame really, there was a lovely 100% serving record for the first three games.
68 - You do realise he’s immigrant labour don’t you Gaz.
Oh I forgot.
He’s white.
What clouds the polls for me is what i have just seen on sky - two fallen troops named.
How many more of our lads have to fall?
It really makes me angry, our lads are being picked off because of equipment IMO. Combat is never safe but given the resources they are given it is not a surprise.
I am hacked off that those families of the fallen troops have to wonder for the rest of their lives, would they have survived if we had a better defence procurement policy.
87. Yes, the Conservatives and the Republicans are very different parties, however, if you do not believe in smaller government you are *not* a Conservative.
tim = twat.
Part sewage, part ar$ehole
95, did you see on Sky about that new armoured vehicle?
The Government won’t buy any because there is not a ‘gap in the fleet’ or suchlike. I do wonder if we still have thin-skinned land rovers and the like.
I know spending must be constrained but I’d sooner reduce health than defence.
96. Gaz: if you do not believe in smaller government you are *not* a Conservative.
You might not be a conservative, but you could still be a Conservative.
80 Roger but this is constantly how Labour tries to shut down proper debate. Going on US TV and criticising the NHS is unpatriotic. Questioning whether our troops are properly resourced for the task in hand is unpatriotic. Raising questions about the Baby P case or opposing 42 days detention is “playing party politics”. Any decent government would welcome and embrace being challenged on issues and encourage healthy debate - this is the way good government and policy making occurs. But Labour aren’t interested because they are always “right” and always on the “moral high ground” and the rest of us are just too stupid to understand.
The key reason Labour couldn’t exploit this was that even Burnham had to admit that David Cameron and Andrew Lansley were not intending to break the NHS. Previous stuff like Oliver Letwin on cutting spending had a bedrock of believability because Howard looked and spoke like a Thatcherite, all to believable that Letwin had spilt the beans.
Cameron is believable on the NHS, Lansley’s dogged protection of the NHS spending pledge matched against Labour’s inability to meet that pledge made the task of trying to exploit what an MEP said very difficult - even though Hannan was according the BBC “a senior Tory”. Then look at the talent Labour deployed, Burnham & Prescott.
95 - careful, or Bob Ainsworth will be on here accusing you of “defeatism” and “misunderstand[ing] the nature of coalition warfare”.
That man really is a treasure trove of objectionable statements.
94. Couldnt care what colour he was, as long as he’s a Conservative. Carry on with the smears though, you just make yourself look very silly.
I guess it’s true then — #welovethenhs!
I’d been trying to point out to Labour leaners on teh Twitters that giving David Cameron free rein of a news cycle to talk about how much he loves the NHS is NOT GOOD STRATEGY.
It’s no less amusing for having been proven absolutely correct.
The answer to the question is yes. Why? Because Andy Burham is a political lightweight who has been promoted to a level that he is not able for.
95. The equipment is a bit of a smokescreen really. The real questiosn are doubleyou-tee-eff are they doing there in the first place? It’s not the responsibility of working class lads from Dartford and similar sh!tholes to risk their lives in order to deliver the ar$e end of Afghanistan from the Taliban. #DH4PM
to Gaz at 85:
Fair enough, I’m not a Thatcherite myself. I’m a Conservative supporter of the dripping wet, ultra-socially liberal variety.
Dan Hannan’s opinions are nowhere near to my views on anything much really - though I certainly don’t dislike him in any way. He seems a nice enough person however eccentric I find his politics.
43 - I don’t agree, actually. It is not the voicing of his opinion about the NHS that was unpatriotic. But it was the effective slagging off of our health system, and actually by implication our country, on American television, in such a way as could only reinforce innaccurate prejudices about our country. Whether Hannan likes it or not, the NHS IS a British Institution, and British institutions should not be slagged off to foreigners, IMO. It’s a bit like Americans rallying around the Presidency in times of crisis, regardless of their personal opinions of the incumbent.
And, on a more tangible point, remember that promoting horror stories about the NHS has the potential to have a direct impact on US-UK tourism.
Frankly it is not surprising that it is MEPs who are involved in all this. It just shows how undemocratic the whole European Parliament is, that its members are so out of touch with their electorates.
New thread on ICM
49 don (the other one) and 57 ukpaul - well said, it has been a magnificent rebuttal; on top of that I get very annoyed with the continual carping about Lansley, he strikes me always as being very much on the ball.
87. Well if he was that much of a fringe politician, I doubt he would have arguably the second largest electoral mandate in the country nor would he be by far the most popular MEP within the Conservative Party (Hannan topped the selection process for MEPs).
I’ll accept that in power terms he hasn’t that much influence on the domestic scene but to suggest he is some sort of ‘Johnny no mates’ in the Conservative Party is way off base. There are plenty inside the Conservative Party who have far less support.
I think your seeming hatred of the Republican right wing is colouring your views.
87 - that’s balls. Believing in “smaller government” is a relative term. It is equivalent to saying that conservatives are anarchists.
The NHS spin is a great opportunity for Cameron to reinforce our support for the NHS and for making it even better, while pointing to the fact that its Labour who are dismantling it and shifting the costs to people who struggle to pay!
110 - No arguably about it. He has NO personal electoral mandate.
106. There is an intellectual debate to be had with the authoritarian thatcherites of old (like Tebbit etc) but it is old hat and unnecessary. The arguments for economic liberalism are the same as those for social liberalism. Freedom of the individual is as important as freedom to make money.
Thatcher campaigned to take the Government out of the board room, modern Conservatives should be campaigning to keep the Government out of the Bedroom as well.
“Did you frequent the Hacienda?”
Yes. I had a studio just round the corner until I moved to London. I was never a great fan of the music or much at the Hasienda apart from the people I went with and TW ans AA. But thanks for that very nostalgic clip. Marie Louise Gardens I think!
The interesting thing is the NHS row could actually have helped the Conservatives in so far as it overshaddowed the Alan Duncan gaff and David Cameron’s response to it. I suspect Cameron’s failure to sack Duncan will have troubled voters far more than Hannan’s views on the NHS, but Labour and the Biased Broadcasting Corporation allowed the story to slip by focusing on the NHS. I suspect most people will not take the view of an MEP, evena high profile one, to be party policy. There have been ‘colourful’ backbench/activist figures before who have come out with remarks that make the leadership uncomfortable, the late Alan Clark springs to mind, but most people never seemed to think that they were speaking for their party and in the end they did little lasting damage. Might be a short term fall in the next poll for Conservatives to 37 or 38, but unless something else happens I think this will all be forgotten about in a few weeks.
107
Except of course what he said was an accurate reflection of both the NHS and our country at the moment and as such he was absolutely right to say so. It makes me laugh that so many people go on about what a bad thing nationalism is and then jump up and down when someone actually goes out and says something that is for the long term good of the people instead of simply pretending everything is lovely and rosy in the garden of England.
110 - The more that people in the Conservative party support Hannan on this the bigger problem Cameron has being stored up.
I dislike extremism, on the left and right, it’s why I dislike the right fringe of the GOP so much (just as I came to hate the Union left of the labour party). I also agree with conservative Andrew Sullivan as to the problem with the GOP and how it colours not just national but global politics. I’ve praised Republicans such as Crist, Ridge, Romney and so on, I’ve also attacked those like Palin, Limbaugh and so on as they are, quite simply, extremists.
alex, it’s true it is possible to hear a barrel being scraped across the internet and here is the proof “……..And, on a more tangible point, remember that promoting horror stories about the NHS has the potential to have a direct impact on US-UK tourism……..”
alex, can you honestly tell us, have you actually seen the entire interview or are you basing your comments on the reports of what he is supposed to have said?
“87 - that’s balls. Believing in “smaller government” is a relative term. It is equivalent to saying that conservatives are anarchists.”
I’m not sure of your point,
Maybe you thought I called UK conservatives ’small government’ but I wasn’t, I was being positive about the conservatives pragmatism, not following a fixed dogma but based on what works.
I was saying the opposite, that conservatives are *not* anarchists.
118
Except of course Hannan is in no way an extremist. He is simply articulating a view held by many people who have had experience of health services outside of the UK and so realise how backward we are in this respect. This knee jerk jump to defend a failing monolithic structure which hinders the development of a proper 21st century health service is very sad to see and speaks of a parochialism which is a sad indictment of the public at large.
121 - Hannan is no Limbaugh, he’s nowhere near a Palin, in fact I think I remember him praising Obama, as in when he said “Barack Obama is no Leftie ”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/4503036/Barack_Obama_is_no_Leftie/
Pretty incontrovertible!
His mistake was to consort with the rightist US fringe and to allow them to use him. He needs to rein his ego in the UK too as he runs the risk of being a pinup for people to the right of him and that will hurt his career.
Daniel represents mainstream Tory grass roots - a group of people whose views on the likes of the NHS , Immigration , Capital punishment ,Education etc are strangely excluded from political debate …
Just noticed this while on a routine blog-rummage. Thanks v much for the link and the big-up, Mike. As a blogger of only four days’ standing, it couldn’t be more appreciated.
SP
If you are confident about what you are doing then your tolerance from attacks should stretch with it. But this clearly hasn’t been the case with Labour. This altogether now - nhs we love you! shite (sorry, Mike) makes us look like Sound of Music fanatics or repeating listeners to the ‘Grandma, we love you song’ to the rest of the world. Urrgh. I feel sick. Let ranters rant; let them tire themselves out - people usually have stopped listening to them way before they do. Can you believe some of the wages the PR people and advisors are getting when a government behaves this way? Sorry about the rant.