Could Gord lose his MP expenses gamble?
April 29th, 2009
How risky is putting his authority on the line?
Given the backlash from Smeargate, the post-budget poll moves against Labour and the widespread ridicule over his YouTube video you would have thought that the last thing the Prime Minister should be doing at the moment is to put his authority on the line in a commons vote on MP expenses.
Yet that was the message coming out of Number 10 last night in what the Guardian describes as a “raising of the stakes” by Brown “…in the face of a sustained revolt within the Labour party.”
As the paper puts it: “…Brown faced a challenge last night when the cross-party Commons standards and privileges committee announced it would table its own amendment on expenses and allowances during the debate tomorrow..The committee, whose members include five senior Labour MPs…. will propose that the system of MPs’ allowances should be referred to the standards watchdog, Sir Christopher Kelly. He would report in his own time. A yes vote for the committee’s proposals would represent a humiliating rebuff to Brown whose central aim in his now notorious YouTube video - to introduce interim reforms before the summer recess - would collapse.”
What happens if he’s defeated? Given that this seems to be his personal decision there could be serious ramifications.
Is it being far-fetched to suggest that he’s putting his leadership on the line? I don’t know but his whole handling of the issue has opened him up to all sorts of criticism.
A massive problem is that the number of Labour colleagues who think he is an election winner appears to be diminishing - and if MPs think they are heading for defeat what’s the point of doing something that would keep Brown there?
Meanwhile the independent website LabourHome has a thread under the heading “Brown has to go, and soon”. The discussion is not very supportive of the leadership.
William Hill now make Brown the 1/7 favourite to be the first of the three party leaders to step down. You can get
7/2 7/4 that Brown won’t lead Labour at the election. I got bets on both these markets months ago at much better odds.
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First, again?
“What happens if he’s defeated? Given that this seems to be his personal decision there could be serious ramifications.”
Mike, Brown is now fighting to have some say in the the last chapter of his political career as Labour leader and PM, he will be gone by the conference season.
Ninety-eighth?
2. What are the exact terms required for him to be forced out? Iirc they’re designed precisely to stop PMs being got rid of while in office.
4.corporeal, as I posted on an earlier thread yesterday…
“I could see a group of the big beasts from the Blair/Brown era deciding to move in by offering to help pave the way for Brown to stand down with a nod to allowing him the dignity of a resignation and stage managed exit. And IMHO, and for the good of the Labour party, that has to be over the summer while Parliament is in recess. Quite simple, a new leader needs to be in place before conference season and Parliament resumes. Most importantly, that will still only leave them about 7 months at the most to call a GE. If this whole mess drags on over the summer into conference season, where could the government be in the polls at the end of it?
The events of the last few weeks has strengthened the hand of the old Blairite guard in a way that didn’t seem possible even a short time ago. Before now, the timing of Brown’s departure seemed to be in his own hands rather than anyone else’s, now that political cover is gone because his authority and the united front is ebbing away fast.”
The LabourHome thread makes interesting reading.
To be massively beaten by Foot in a poll of the best Labour leader of the last 30 years really is comical.
Well he could. But a half-hearted arse of a vote is what I expect to be honest. I think the Government might get whacked on Gurkhas rather than expenses.
I still think the odds are Brown survives. 2 main reasons:
1) No obvious successor and they can’t risk an election as Harman could win. Harman means total wipeout.
2) Expenses publication in July means Brown can’t go before then and by mid July it’s too late. Only time he can go is immediately after Euros and expenses publication prevents this.
Good grief. No, Brown isn’t going to go, no matter how much bloggers with money riding on it try to agitate.
And neither should he. There’s an election to win.
9 - I agree. We need Brown to stay to lead Labour to glorious victory
Most people in politics used to be scared of Brown one way or other. Now he is revealed as a serial incompetent and a deeply nasty bit of work too, I think fear has morphed into contempt. They all know that the GE represents the end of the line for ages and ages so most Labour MPs are starting to think in terms of what happens after Brown and a thumping GE defeat. Brown’s authority - moral, personal, political - is completely shot.
Brown is a small man. Not physically but in every way that counts. He’s a coward, a bully, an arrogant know nothing, a tribal shit stirrer, a grudge holder, a sociopath. All the horrible warnings about him have been proved spot on.
Right now I look on Brown as being pretty much the Lord Farquaad character in Shrek. The GE dragon will swallow him up. History won’t be kind because of the ruin he has visited on us.
10 - We need a competent Prime Minister. Cameron is not that. He is slime, spin, and sleaze, nothing more. An intellectual nothing gazing on posters of Thatcher, and a moral vacuum.
Cameron is scum - the country cannot afford him.
He has to go and go now. These photographs of the two of them posing outside the gates of Auschwitz are the last straw for me, so very macabre as one of my readers put it. The man’s judgement is so flawed he surely can’t stay.
13 - Link?
12 Who do you propose as PM? We certainly can’t afford the current mess - they’ve bankrupted us.
13 - two who? Cameron and Osborne?
Oh how nice, I see Mrs Brown is there again! It was the Welsh Labour Party conference a few days ago, where Gordo pushed her out the way, now again she is there by his side on the ineffective whistle-stop tour of various countries. I thought Gordo didn’t use his family as props?
15 - we’re not “bankrupt”. We would have been if Cameron and Osborne and Clarke and Hague and Redwood were in charge, though.
12 - Scum? Have you met the man? He’s personable, human and pleasant.
Scum is a very strong word to use.
Not to mention wrong.
14.Try the Daily Mail, another soft soap article has popped up about Sarah Brown which includes her tears on the visit.
18 Eh? How would the national finances be worse under a Tory administration?
20 - No prop usage there then!
18 - How so? Ken Clarke left Number 11 with the national finances in much better nick than he found them.
Unlike every single Labour Chancellor in history.
Who fed “Tax Credits” Bot then? He normally clocks off by now!
19 - it is a strong word. But, in the same way people describe Gordon Brown, I see nothing in Cameron that tells me he isn’t scum.
Cameron is slimey, sleazy, a secondhand car salesman, a rich man’s rich man, painfully superficial, unapologetically Thatcherite, and ignorant.
Boys, ignore Andrew, he is desperate. A sign of the difficulties faced by Brown I suspect. He popped up at the end of the last thread spouting similar crap. I posted a link to the latest hatchet job on Georgia Gould in the Daily Mail, and he started blaming the Tories for this! He was very quick out of the blocks when I posted on this…..
I’m not blaming the Tories for anything, Christina, apart from having a truly hideous policy vision.
I’m congratulating their slick, sleazy Spin Machine on doing a good job. Team Cameron make Campbell et al look whiter than white.
26 - The reason he is so angry is that Cameron has now made it clear that he will cut his Tax Credits!
Andrew, the PB crowd is a pretty sophisicated and sharp bunch - and that includes supporters for all the main parties. Your mindless insults and failure to respond on any element of content in debate makes you look - well - just childish. Angry and desperate too.
25 - And you get that from what evidence? From hate-filled lefty bloggers?
Have dinner with him, have a chat, he’s a nice chap. I’m sure he’ll visit somewhere near you during his preparation for premiership (general election campaign).
Honestly, if you compare him to Gordon Brown having been in the same room as both of them and I can’t see how you vote for Brown. I just can’t.
I think neither of them have quite the same charisma as Blair or Thatcher but Cameron is vastly superior to Brown.
19. “Scum? Have you met the man? He’s personable, human and pleasant.”
I appreciate ’scum’ is a bit strong but I think people are entitled to form a view on a major party leader regardless of whether or not they’ve personally met him! And didn’t Andrew Neil make some knowing comment a few months ago about how Cameron could be a bit of a bully when the cameras weren’t on him? It may be that the people who haven’t met him actually have the higher opinion of him!
27 - So what is the Tory policy vision?
I’d actually love to know
29 - I am angry at the easy ride that useless Cameron is getting.
If you’d like to debate on matters of policy, though, I think most of us would welcome it.
Cameron isn’t big on that tricky policy business of course, but PB posters are better than him, as you rightly say.
I am getting fed up with all this ’scum’ talk.Cameron is not ’scum’, and by the same token Brown is not ’scum’.
The scum are the people who bany around these terms.
Now where was I ? ‘Party Leaders’ is a current preoccupation of mine.The markets are pathetically weak and currently I am at the front of the market on both sides.
I go 2.9-3.3 Cameron Only and 1.49-1.59 Cameron/Brown.There are no plots and definitely no insider trading.The 7-2 Brown to depart in 2009 has to be a bet because if he leaves or is pushed or calls an early GE it will happen this year rather than next.
There are so many great bets on offer with the bookies.On the previous thread Richard Nabavi remarked “You can’t back them all !”
That is normally a completely sound opinion but it is getting to the stage where you CAN Back them all.The bookies are all over the place at the moment and one firm has been run ragged.
d
31 - I know, but the bar has to be set higher when people are throwing words round like scum.
I think the number who deserve that word is very small.
31.Oh good, can we have a chat about Alex Salmond, now there is a cold fish if ever there was. Oops, better not mention the views of some politically minded Scots who have met him!
33 OK then. What aspect of Tory policy is ‘hideous’?
30 - sorry, but Cameron just doesn’t strike me as a “nice chap” at all. He strikes me as a salesman. A rich man’s rich man. A jolly buffoon who likes the odd un-PC joke behind closed doors, but turns UTTERLY professional when the cameras are on.
Cameron is a deeply unpleasant person, and unfit to lead my country.
39 - Proof?
Unlike the criticism that Gordo gets on her, where there are direct quotes from people close to him and have worked with him over the years to back up certain accusations.
For Cameron, have we got an evidence to back up your smears? That he is scum? That he likes an Un-PC joke (which I take as underhand way of saying racist)? Anything else you want to chuck in there?
JUST FANCY THAT
by andrew b April 29th, 2009 at 2:28 am: The Tories, however, hoping to snatch power with no policies [...] that’s something.
by andrew b April 29th, 2009 at 3:24 am: I’m not blaming the Tories for anything, Christina, apart from having a truly hideous policy vision.
Brilliant.
33 - Cameron is getting an easy ride becase the country is sick of the government and the press and public know the only alternative is David Cameron.
In many ways, it is sad that the country has been so let down in the past 5 years or so that there really is such disillusion with the government.
The worst thing is that things at the end of the Labour era are getting worse while we wait for a change of government, while towardas the limping end of Major’s term, the country’s economy was getting better. Blair was able to ride the upswing to popularity.
I fear David Cameron will end upgoing down as a very unpopular PM due to the mess he will have to dig us out of. But he might do for the country what Kinnock did for Labour. Sort out a sorry mess and get no real credit for it.
34. “The scum are the people who bandy around these terms.”
What, even the ones who get voted PB.com poster of the year off the back of it? OK, I’m not sure if SeanT has ever used the word ’scum’, but I can certainly recall ‘retard’ and several rather stronger words that my sensitive nature won’t permit me to repeat!
40 - evidence of Cameron being a sleazy, shallow, unpleasant individual?
What do you want, a link to a Coffee House article or something?
33.”29 - I am angry at the easy ride that useless Cameron is getting.”
My comment of the day! Cameron has had the toughest scrutiny of a UK party leader since Major, neither Blair or Brown got anywhere near that level of scrutiny while they bullied and tried to control the political media. And yet, that was nothing compared to the tough ride he got from his own party and their pals in the blogsphere. Brown and his team have thrown everything bar the kitchen sink at him, and the Tories are now riding high at about 45% in the latest polls. That failure seems to be causing a high level of bile ridden indigestion in some posters here.
37 - Do you think so? I’ve never met him, but always thought he came across well in the Commons.
44 - Well yes! Without proof, it is a smear, simple as.
On the flipside, we can all dig out the quotes from high ranking individuals, with a close working relationship, to back up the accusations banded about with regards Gordo and his “personality” problem etc.
Andrew we’re back to mud slinging again. LS at 41 has you bang to rights. Shut up about what you personally think of Dave and tell us what you so dislike about Tory policies - you did say at 33 that you would welcome a policy / content discussion (or were you bullshitting and just come here to pee in OGH’s swimming pool).
Christina - Cameron hasn’t had a single question asked of him, and you know it.
The second he does, the poor chap will flap about like a fish out of water. He is Media. He is Spin. He is Sales.
He is not serious, he is not competent, and he is not PM material.
46.David, that’s my honest view, and I hear it regularly from those who have met him. Its been discussed here before, Marcia even noted it as a fair comment. It doesn’t detract from the fact that he has been a very successful politician, but he is at times very detached from the grassroots membership that way.
49 - That cut in Tax Credits coming your way really has got you angry hasn’t it!
37. “Oops, better not mention the views of some politically minded Scots who have met him!”
As we’ve successfully managed to avoid one of our daft arguments for several months, Christina (mainly because I haven’t been here!), I won’t rise to your bait except to point out that plenty of people who haven’t met Alex Salmond also dislike him, probably for similar reasons as the ‘politically minded Scots’ who have. That’s the difference with Cameron, where the suspicion might be that what you see isn’t necessarily what you’d get.
As Marcia has observed before, Salmond (both the public and private persona) is the Marmite of Scottish politics - you either love him or hate him.
39 This comment is entirely a projection opf your own prejudices on your part. You have never met Cameron, you have no idea what he is like either in a face to face public meeting or in private.
In the past I have met two senior politicians - both now retired, one Labour and one Conservative. I found both to be witty, charming and knowledgable.
My scenario is this:
There are a fair few decent, honourable Labour politicians. They know that they will not win the next election. They also know that Brown is discredited and, the way things stand, he increasingly seems to be making matters worse. But a Labour party leadership battle does neither the country nor the Labour party much good in the coming months.
My feeling is that soon Brown will be offered two options:
1. Go to the Queen, dissolve parliament and call an election or;
2. Face an engineered vote of no confidence (there are a number of ways his could be done).
Brown will take 1.
There are many advantages for the Labour party in doing this, but it’s late and I can’t type straight!
50 / 46 - you think so? Most of the people I talk to think Cameron comes across as a slimeball trying to sell you a secondhand Corsa. So insincere, he makes Blair look honest.
52. “31.I appreciate ’scum’ is a bit strong but I think people are entitled to form a view on a major party leader regardless of whether or not they’ve personally met him! And didn’t Andrew Neil make some knowing comment a few months ago about how Cameron could be a bit of a bully when the cameras weren’t on him? It may be that the people who haven’t met him actually have the higher opinion of him!”
Pot and kettle springs to mind! Cameron has got a warmth about him that Salmond has never quite managed to achieve.
49 - Every heard of Cameron Direct! I think that requries him answering rather a lot of difficult questions. I believe Nick Clegg does exactly the same, and I hear both are very good at giving decent answers to questions from members of the public.
Has Gordo ever done something like this? Hmmm when was the last time he took questions from the public, oh yes he ended up shouting at them on R4! Actually while we were at it, when was the last time Gordo met the public? I honestly don’t know, it has been so long.
As for questions. When was the last time Gordo was on QT? Oh yes he hasn’t for over 12 years! And he has done Newsnight once in 12 years, with 3 extremely friendly journos asking the questions rather than Paxo (maybe he would have ended up pi##ing his pants on tv, not like he hasn’t got form on that front).
Oh and don’t forget when he was chancellor he virtually never attended any of the committee sessions, briefings and media appearance the chancellor is normally expected to do. No, he sent underlings pretty much every time.
55 Then all one can say is you have a very narrow group of people to talk to (given your prejudiced and thoughtless comments tonight I have hestitated to say friends)
Getting back to the topic:
Could Gord lose his MP expenses gamble? [...] How risky is putting his authority on the line?
Must be a strange bookmaker/casino that will allow him to gamble with a zero stake.
50 - That very factor was what made Tony Blair so formidable. He didn’t allow the grass roots to lead him. That is also what made IDS so awful. Grass roots support is only good as a retrenchment strategy, and was why I was so annoyed with the MPs stitching up Portillo.
56. ‘Pot and kettle’ implies that I am the ‘pot’, which implies that I am in fact Alex Salmond, which I can assure you I’m not. So I think that gets me off the hook on that score.
In any case, your point is perfectly consistent with my own - Cameron’s public persona is very warm, but is that giving us the whole picture? Andrew Neil’s cryptic comment would imply not.
Cameron Direct?! Are you having a laugh, Oracle? The opinion in the real world is “wasuh?” and amongst those who are politically aware it is “what a slimey idiot!”
I’m sorry, but David Cameron comes across worse than Gordon Brown in every way apart from one - he’s not got the media on his back.
54 C.Good post.The literal truth is that nobody knows what is going to happen…..not even Lord Mandelson and that is why you can bet on it to narrow figures.
During one of the Blair crises people were betting as though they KNEW he was going.These were ‘insiders’ and they were prepared to stake large wagers.As it turned out they left their money behind and Blair stayed.
Later it emerged that he had talked of quitting on the day when the money came in.
No such money exists that says Gordon is departing.
61.Red Meteor, missed my point entirely. Never mind, will leave you to ponder it. Nite all.
63 - Labour will take the fight to the Tories under the current leadership. It’s that simple.
55 - I was talking about Alex Salmond in the post you refer to. If you are going to post one-dimensionally, make sure it is at least responding to posts about your chosen subject.
65 - What via more smearing? Come on Tax Credit Bot isn’t it clocking off time yet?
67 - I thought I was debt bot?
Are you “Tory quip bot” or what?
Well it is time for this evil media scumbag to go home. Night all.
68 - No “Tax Credit Bot” is far better, as it sums up your persona on here rather well!
I’m sure the Tories would love me to have me onside, unfortunately they still have work to do on that front!
63.Good point. All we have right now is a lot of chatter on the airwaves, what is going on under the radar is anyone’s guess. Mine is simple that he will be gone by the end of the summer before conference. He is now even more politically wounded than Major was by this stage in 96′, then it was the Conservative party rather than Major that took most of the heat and public anger. Major got some sympathy over the way his party behaved towards him, he was still regarded as a decent politician leading a rotten party. Smeargate confirmed that it was the other way around with the Brownites and the Labour party.
63 I just think there are enough wise heads in the Labour party (whichever “branch”) able to see that just changing Brown now isn’t going to resolve anything and is no good for the country. If he goes the party will fracture. If he stays then same result but the damage might be more permanent. I’m not as insightful as many of the posters here but from my point of view Labours sensible option is clean break, accept defeat electorally and regroup.
erm, ok people, new plan, lets totally ignore andrew b. He’s defiling this thread, and every time you respond gives him another chance to speak the same garbage. Arguing with him has taken over this thread, something none of us want.
On topic now, if Brown loses this vote(which he almost certainly will) how untenable will his position become? If he cant survive, he will be replaced over the summer, and any new face would have to go to the country. In 2005 people voted for Blair, but we all knew Blair and Brown where a joint package, if a new PM arises then his or her position would be completely impossible without a mandate.
a side note, the downing street ‘resign’ petition is almost to 26,000, seems to be gaining about 6,000 signatures a day
64. Hmmm, now I remember how all those arguments started, Christina. Just a touch patronising, perhaps? Still, experience is a wonderful thing and I’ll try to restrain myself this time.
And I won’t bother ‘pondering’ too much because I’m beginning to doubt my capacity to attain the higher state of consciousness required to ‘understand’ some of your points.
73 - But its too much fun ribbing Tax Credit Bot, he is such a thicket he even makes Farmer Tupac look good!
On topic, my thought is does Gordo ever hold a vote when there is a chance of losing? In the past when it has looked like he would he has backed down at the last minute ( arhh, what was the fairly recent example of this, brain blanked). With 42 days, he knew he was going to win, after some nice inducements were allegedly offered.
Edit:- Here we go,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7842402.stm
At the start of PMQs Mr Brown told MPs there would be a free vote on the matter….
But less than an hour later the government said the plan would be shelved.
70 - so you’re not gonna vote for the Tory &^%*s, but you still come on here chirping up on their side?
Cameron and Osborne and Redwood and their tax cuts for the mega rich? Their whitling down of tax credits? Their chopping down and contracting out of the NHS, their privatisation of the school system, their deregulation of the City, their cuts in social services?
Is that really what you joined the Lib Dems for…?
73 Certainly an early GE would be good for the country.
60.David, totally agree, and I have on many highlighted Salmond’s politically astute credentials on here. Disagree about Portillo though, he was not leadership material, and lacked the courage or strategy to achieve that ambition.
76 Now that sounds like an excellent policy platform to me. Throw in scrapping ID cards, regional quangos and repaying some debt and I’m sure Dave will be in with a landslide.
73 - on topic, it will make no difference. Labour will take the fight to the Tories under the current leadership, on policy, on the economy, on the poor, and on public services.
74.Will you just listen to yourself? You need to chill out and reread your own posts as well as mine. Its not just me that can be typecast as a chippy Scot, you are more than able to carry that title as well! Right off to bed.
76 - Just because politics is that black and white in your tiny brain, doesn’t mean I am also such a simpleton!
If you actually read my posts you would know I have highly critical on many Tory plans, elected police chiefs for starters.
I try to comment on how I see things, when I think they are positive / good idea, and when they are negative, regardless of which party suggests them.
73 whilst Brown’s credibility may be shot to pieces and he is seen as a joke figure (cf the youtube remixes) this is probably not as serious enough issue to force any resignations. It’s not the budget or tax matters and it’s not Westland/Heseltine which Thatcher did admit could have caused her resignation. Brown central could play it as Brown presented his proposals to the HoC, they rejected them, it’s a HoC matter let them sort it out….
Andrewb - Why are you being an obnoxious little upstart? The readers and contributors to PB are generally smart, insightful and far less quick to throw around such petty insults as you seek to. The fact that you’re still spewing your hateful nonsense 80 posts later is a testament to how easy it is for one person to ruin a thread.
I’m not sure what you’re hoping to accomplish but being so quick to throw around words like ’scum’ certainly doesn’t do a single thing to advance your cause, whatever it may be.
Why don’t you sit back and offer valid criticism on topic and start a conversation on topic and in a civilised manner? Failing that, just leave us alone.
82 - but all you seem to do is join the braindead let’s-slag-off-Brown chorus.
If Dave is so great and so nailed-on for the next PM like the Toryboys want us to believe, isn’t it time we start stacking him and his party up against Labour, policy for policy, sleaze for sleaze?
61.”56. ‘Pot and kettle’ implies that I am the ‘pot’, which implies that I am in fact Alex Salmond, which I can assure you I’m not. So I think that gets me off the hook on that score.”
That was not my point at all, and I am at a loss to understand how you came to that conclusion. Pot and Kettle quite clearly links to the comment you made, which I highlighted at the top of that post. You pointed out that ” ’scum’ is a bit strong but I think people are entitled to form a view on a major party leader regardless of whether or not they’ve personally met him! And didn’t Andrew Neil make some knowing comment a few months ago about how Cameron could be a bit of a bully when the cameras weren’t on him? It may be that the people who haven’t met him actually have the higher opinion of him!”
20. This is a perverse thing to admit, but I always laugh at those horrible Auschwitz photoshoots–they’re so tacky. They look like somebody’s photos from Disney World, except with frowns on so that everyone knows that the subjects are people of deep empathy who understand that Auschwitz Is Sad.
I thought that Sarah Brown was supposed to be a woman of refined taste, shouldn’t she have known better?
83. considering how personal this proposal is for brown, and how much the media have talked about it being solely his idea, i think the media, and the public would take it as a vote of no confidence from parliament, i reasonably doubt he would suffer an actual no confidence vote(heaven forbid the labour mp’s would risk a years pay) but i think losing on something so personally connected with the PM could be something of a game changer, though to what degree we can only guess.
84 - Ok Tax Credit Bot, I don’t think I need you to tell me what I should be doing!
85 - people make judgements about politicians all the time, whether they’ve met them or not.
They think Gordon Brown is grumpy and useless. And they think David Cameron is sleazy, smarmy, untrustworthy, and lightweight.
I tend to agree that Brown losing this expenses vote will further weaken him but is unlikely to do more than that in the short term. That man is stuck in there like a limpet. It’ll take some serious winkling by senior players to remove him before he wants to go.
(Previous thread)
On several occasions I have emailed the BBC suggesting that instead of doing yet another series on the Tudors or the Victorians, they do one of the Byzantine empire.
Either the BBC ignores me or I get a standard response on the lines of “Your comments have been noted.”
[and]
Great idea! And with more than 1000 years of history they would have so much material to choose from…
The sack of Constantinople would be a great background for a series.
I have a friend who had a friend at university who studied Byzantium; he adopted an alter-ego persona and proclaimed himself to be Empress Irene the Second of Byzantium. That fact alone makes it a worthy subject for a documentary on TV. I don’t know anything about it otherwise.
86 but that’s the point. Everyone, but Gordon Brown would consider it a major loss of authority such that a reasonable person would respond. Gordon Brown could and would bluster his way through. If Marr or similar ask, his response would be the one I outlined followed by a prompt “the other party leaders refused to support me” comment
81. Yeah, that was the general pattern, Christina. You’d patronise me, I’d point out you were being patronising, you’d tell me to take a chill pill and that I was being a chippy Scot (or a variation thereof). Which is again a bit patronising. So as that’s a fairly unbreakable cycle I shall just wish you a good night’s sleep.
tyson asked seanT- how do you go about bonking someone 40 mins after a sesh?
I can’t speak for Sean, but my average is about 2 per day; with a Poisson distribution it has been known to be up to 5 or 6 per day occasionally. Twice within an hour is entirely conceivable. Like Sean, I often tend to do different people in the same night; unlike Sean they are not actually with me at the time.
91 - Don’t forget “making the right long term decisions”!
He said it in the Press Conference, “”right thing to do”, even though it has been roundly rejected by all sides and is accepted as a totally flawed solution!
I glad he did an Arts subject at university, where there isn’t one “right” answer, I can only imagine if he had done maths or science what would have happened!
Reminds me of I once had a fresher come to me and complain why he hadn’t scored a 100% on a paper, and I said because he had got some things wrong. He said I must be wrong, because he had never got less 100% on any test before, and wasted an hour of my time going through arguing every single answer on what was a fairly unimportant test. He actually then lodged a formal complaint against me!
Oh! The “click to edit” thingy has reappeared! But when I tried to edit it, it said “you do not have permission to edit this comment”. Dur! Broken pencil or what?!?
94 i want him to lose this vote, then spend 12 minutes in front of a camera with Paxman, then even if he screws the country to hell, i can still die a happy man
I am feeling more miserable again today.
I have been having lots of doubts rattling around in my brain in the last few months about whether I am still a Marxist or not, and whether I ever was one in the first place; and what I might be if I am not a Marxist, and what else there is left if Marxism is not the answer. As a result of being suddenly and unexpectedly very upset (both personally and politically) last November by someone who I thought was a good friend, I have now got to the stage where I don’t like reading my various Marxist books at all because it brings back bad memories when I try to.
About two years ago I bought about 5 or 6 (large) books, cheaply, thanks to a combination of book tokens (Christmas) and half-price offers (etc.). The discussion on previous threads about books reminds me that two of them which I haven’t got round to reading yet are the legendary “Hubris” and “Nemesis” about Hitler.
Therefore I have been slightly de-miserable-ified by the thought that I can go and read them without being upset by other lefty books.
Off topic, but - how long before Cameron emotes passionately at the despatch box about Swine Flu, I wonder?
Perhaps he’ll chuck his papers everywhere in anger or something? He feels our pain.
85. “I am at a loss to understand how you came to that conclusion.”
OK, the explanation is fairly simple. The term ‘pot and kettle’ implies that the ‘pot’ is criticising the ‘kettle’ for something they are at fault for themselves. Given the criticism of David Cameron was for something you felt could also be applied to Alex Salmond (coming across differently in private than he does in public), the ‘pot’ in this instance could only be Alex Salmond himself. We’re now into the realms of the absurd, but you did ask.
88 I agree with you on what people think of Brown - that is a matter of polling record. But the public opinion of Dave is precisely not what you say - it is your own view.
I’ve never met Dave and he may be a total bastard in private. But I suspect that the image of him and his wife that emerged at the time of his son’s death was the real one. It is a matter of polling fact that the general reaction to Dave is broadly positive. Get over it - your view and the general public’s view are not in line.
I know my politics is in a minority as I’m really quite right wing. I’d like to quit the EU, resolve the WLQ, enshrine ’sound money’ in a written constitution and make the benefits lifestyle very much harder to achieve. I’d contract out the NHS and privatise all schools via vouchers. I fully accept that in some people’s eyes this makes me ‘nasty’ and that I’m to the right of their view. I have got over it. I know my view is not theirs. I don’t project my opinions on to others and pretend everyone agrees with me. I thought Thatcher was great. Many don’t. (good Simon Heffer opinion piece in the DT today by the way).
Grow up Andrew. On Dave, just accept that you hate him but most people like him. Is that so hard to deal with?
andrew, bottie, “stacking up against Labour, sleaze for sleaze?”
Nope, got us there, we can’t do that.
English lit ’shunned by students’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8022762.stm
Private schools weather recession
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8023188.stm
Edukation, Edukation, Edukation!
100 - I’m sorry but Cameron simply is not very popular. He’s not a likeable person. Even the polling evidence shows that.
Most people I know, even if they are Tories, think he is a deeply unpleasant, smarmy individual. He comes across as Tony Blair without the redeeming features. Which says a lot.
Sorry to be a bit late joining in this morning, but had a mouthful of coffee when I read the BBC report “The prime minister has said Britain is “among the best prepared countries in the world” to deal with the (Swine Flu) outbreak. “We have been preparing for this kind of scenario for many years,” he said, insisting that Britain was now taking “all the urgent action that is necessary”.”.
Keyboard took time drying out.
Forgot to mention something which I think is really shocking about the Swine Flu outbreak, all the numbers coming out of Mexico are completely flawed. Apparently they don’t have the facilities / doctors / scientists to distinguish between Swine Flu and other more normal strains of season flu, thus all these figures of 1500 infected and 150 dead are completely pie in the sky. Nobody knows, and so far of all the cases WHO (I think it is them) have gone through, only 7 deaths are confirmed as a direct result of Swing Flu!
104. its great, he has all purpose buzz lines for any and all crisis. imagine him using those lines in the wake of a nuclear attack, or french invasion
104 - Hmm, he better hope Tami_flu (only way to get through spam filter) is the right anti-viral! Against the seasonal flus in the US so far this year tami_flu has been completely ineffective (even though it is suppose to work)! Luckily for the US they hedged their bets and have another anti-viral which has been much more successful.
Remind, what have we got here, oh yes 33 million lots of Tami_flu! Fingers crossed, hey!
Also pretty shocking that after 100 days Obama still doesn’t have any of the medical positions filled in his government. Apparently there aren’t any medical experts driving the bus at the moment!
106 makes you wish for Spitting Image to return just to have each excuse/ slogan trotted out for ever more absurd events
John Loony.
Marxism, Socialism, leftyism. They all lead to economic failure and poverty for all. To succeed would require human nature to be different. It ain’t. Get over it. If you can’t quite reach far enough to accept that managing money properly is a key skill for politicians then maybe try focussing on individual liberties - there’s almost endless virtuous mileage there and you don’t even have to become a Tory! In any event never touch another commy rag again - you’ll only upset yourself. They’ll poison your mind with lies that can only be realised in Utopia and not the real world. Realising that you may have been wrong is a tough thing for people to accept sometimes - just look at Andrew’s contortions about Dave. We all change. And despite the anoraking that goes on here there’s so much more to life than politics.
On a personal note I think pretty much all the regulars here on PB enjoy your posts and your wacky sense of humour. Please cheer up. We’d miss you terribly if you were gone. Bright side of life…etc.
Royal Mail / Post Office will be pleased,
“Leaflets about the swine flu outbreak and how to prevent its spread are to be delivered to every UK household.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8023977.stm
That is if the government use them! Maybe they will use UkMail instead, that is how my polling card arrived. Good to see the government supporting the national mail carrier, if they don’t believe in them not sure how they think we will.
Swine fever, bird flu, SARS, foot and mouth, mad cows, global warming, sun spots (or lack of), obesity, AIDS, blah blah blah.
The WHO, IPCC etc need to get their funding. The newspapers need to sell copy.
The laughable panics that people try to work up over nothing at all are a good source of amusement to anyone with his head screwed on right.
Keep calm, carry on. Don’t waste your money on a face mask - it’ll just you look like a twat.
98. Seven and a half hours?
102. That link has a picture of William Shakespeare on it, which rather spoiled it. I have hated Shakespeare ever since “The Merchant Of Venice” was shoved down my throat when I was 15. He should have been strangled at birth. Why couldn’t he write properly instead of using cryptic poetry? I wonder what the English language would be like without him? I wonder how much of an urban myth it is that he invented or initiated or renovated or reinvigorated 2,357 words in our vocabulary? And who else, instead of him, would now be used as an instrument of torture against innocent schoolchildren?
113
I did Russian A levels. Believe me, Willy Waggledagger has nothing on Pushkin, Tchekov, Dostoevsky or Lermontov in miserabilising school kids.
111. “Swine fever, bird flu, SARS, foot and mouth, mad cows, global warming, sun spots (or lack of), obesity, AIDS, blah blah blah.
The WHO, IPCC etc need to get their funding. The newspapers need to sell copy.
The laughable panics that people try to work up over nothing at all are a good source of amusement to anyone with his head screwed on right.”
Quite right, Patrick. It’s not as if anyone ever died of AIDS, is it?
113 - Watch Richard III,Hamlet or Macbeth. Much better than Merchant of Venice.
I noticed that the “Click to Edit” thingy had a countdown clock next to it, counting down from 5 minutes to zero. It was fun watching it for the last few seconds before disappearing. I’ve also noticed that it vanishes if I write a new message or refresh the page, so one can’t have two or more countdown edit thingies on different messages at the same time. It would be fun if it were possible - we could have a competition to see how many we could have running at the same time. A bit like spinning plates on poles. But anyway, what’s the point of having a “click to edit” toy if we are not allowed to use it? Is it one of Gordon’s schemes for torturing us and making us go mad so that we will forget to vote him out at the next election?
I am suspicious that this is a scam by the drug companies and the WHO to secure research funding. Some people got the flu. Millions get the flu every year. This doesn’t seem even to be a bad bug, except for some cases in Mexico. People here with it don’t even feel particularly ill. I can;t understand the panic.
I can understand it in poor countries, but here?
116. Even my English O-Level teacher told us that he hated the Merchant of Venice. I liked the film of Romeo and Juliet, with Leonardo DiCaprio and Whoever Juliet Was. I was surprised that the script was left intact and verbatim, even though the rest of the film had been put in a modern setting. I was also surprised at how much I was able to understand it and follow what was happening; it must have been something to do with the fact that it was being performed as a play/film/drama, instead of being read and dissected and parsed and analysed line-by-line by mad sadistic literature teachers.
118. David, even if it turns out be not particularly deadly, the fact that it’s a new virus means there’ll be no immunity to it in the general population. If 25% of the UK comes down with this thing, thousands will die - there’s no getting away from that. I hope this just goes away, but even if it does it won’t have been a hyped-up crisis.
115 They did. But it never came anywhere near the end of civilisation, ‘a billion to die’ scare stories that were put out.
Pretty much from day one anybody could avoid the risk of HIV through abstinence or using a condom. The failure of the AIDS epidemic to take off globally has surprised many outside the medical profession. There never really was all that much to worry about for anyone who can read or watch TV ‘remember your prtoection’ advertisements.
AIDS was a politicised disease because originally it mostly affected gay men and drug injectors in the USA. The tragedy of AIDS now is that it is largely sorted in the rich world but not in the 3rd world. Particularly in Africa, the culture against condoms (and the downright bizarre behavour of Mbeki) condemn people to die unecessarily. There are worse diseases and ones that kill way more people than AIDS but AIDS has taken much more than it’s fair share of the research funding pie.
Red Meteor you really don’t need to worry about AIDS.
119 - That is what you have to remember, Shakespeare works are plays and reading will have much less impact.
There was a wonderful RSC production of Richard III last year with the settings and costumes modernised though using the original text and it was awesome.
Though it may well be the performance of the amazing Jonathan Slinger that helped.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/theatreblog/2008/may/09/therscshouldnotbeashamed
Petition latest:
25,759 signatures, fifth place.
776 to fourth place; 958 to third; 1129 to second; 2523 to first.
In football terms, 115 behind West Brom.
121. So to sum up, AIDS hasn’t been a problem except for all the countries in which it has been a problem? Probably the main reason AIDS hasn’t been worse in the UK is precisely the fact that the ‘amusing’ panic you talk about prompted enough people to take the necessary precautions.
I wouldn’t worry about AIDS personally unless I’d had unprotected sex, but I most certainly do worry about global warming. I also worry about swine flu for the reasons I set out in my response to David Roe (which irritatingly has ended up in the moderation trap and probably won’t appear for several hours!). Funnily enough, I didn’t worry about mad cow disease in 1990 - but as it turned out I certainly should have done! The science was so uncertain on BSE that the precautionary principle should have applied - in that instance it was the vested interest of the farming lobby that suppressed a perfectly rational concern about public safety.
(NB - I’m probably responding to #120. It appears as #121 on my screen because of my comment in moderation.)
I’ve just realised that I haven’t read the topic of the thread yet.
In 1995ish to 1997, I hated John Major and had contempt for him and his government; but after the 1997 election I almost felt sorry for him because the defeat was much heavier than most people had expected. I fairly quickly came to look back on him as a decent and reasonable man who managed a dreadful situation as best he could. Now I can hardly imagine the words to describe how utterly ghastly Gordon Brown is in comparison. I don’t hate him as such; I just don’t get him at all. It’s as if he’s some sort of hideous alien-blob-plant-monster from “Doctor Who” or “Primaeval”. It is impossible to work out how he fits in with any sort of rational human interactions. If Tony Blair were still PM, then Gordon Brown would still be the Iron Chancellor who has steadfastedly steered the economy like a great helmsman through some choppy waters, but now? What was Blair thinking of? Didn’t he realise what GB would be like?
Gordon Brown seems to have thought up a random attendance allowance scheme, unrelated to the real issues of what MPs have to deal with or how they actually do their work, without it even occurring to him that anything might be wrong with it. Can this be real? Have I jumped into a parallel universe, where weird things happen? How can this gallumphing grinning gurning wriggling snot-munching rhinoceros have ever got to become Prime Minister?
And will I be back here in eight months time, expressing bewilderment about how bad Premier Harperson is compared with her Great Favian Predecessor?
54 C:
1. Go to the Queen, dissolve parliament and call an election or;
2. Face an engineered vote of no confidence (there are a number of ways his could be done).
Brown will take 1.
I think both are very unlikely, but your option 1 is just remotely possible.
The only really practical window for a GE this year would be shortly after the conference season in October or just possibly in November. I was attracted by Hills generous odds of 20/1 for Oct with a small saver of 33/1 for Nov.
IMHO this is far and away the most effective means of betting on Brown’s departure this year, but it still ain’t going to happen!
“Then all one can say is you have a very narrow group of people to talk to (given your prejudiced and thoughtless comments tonight I have hestitated to say friends)”
I think that “fellow patients” is the term that you are seeking.
On topic, I couldn’t find a single comment on Labour Home that was supportive of Brown.
From Mike’s thread:
Meanwhile the independent website LabourHome has a thread under the heading “Brown has to go, and soon”. The discussion is not very supportive of the leadership.
You don’t say!
I remain very perplexed about the notorious YouTube video of Brown’s jiggling in his chair and his wholly inappropriate and innane grinning throughout.
First - how did this video clip ever see the light of day?
Second - is the guy ill or on some medication which led him to behave in such a weird way?
Those who haven’t yet seen it really should check it out.
How risky is putting his authority on the line?
About as dangerous as Britney Spears risking her reputation as a mother.
As a previous commenter noted, allowing a stake of zero in a bet is a little unusual.
where can you get 7-2 on Brown not leading labour at the next election?
A note on scum.
Algae is one of the most promising potential sources for biofuels. Completely sustainable, and does not compete with resources needed to grow food. The alternative name for algae is of course pond scum.
So in the future we may come to depend on scum for our very existence.
It seems pretty much agreed in the Media that there will be a Cabinet re-shuffle on or about 10 June, pretty much immediately following the local & Euro elections.
I feel this will tell us a good deal about Brown’s future intentions. By this I mean were he intending to retire/resign in the Autumn why bother? In fact it would be a mistake to bother since whoever might succeed him would wish to pick their own team.
Nope, if he re-shuffles in June, as rumoured, however you look at it, he’s staying put for another year.
130 Not sure Polska - certainly not with Hills, whose odds are only 7/4, unattractive in my view and only half those quoted by Mike at the top of this thread.
128 - yes i find it a complete mystery. Why didn’t they just do another take?
All,
I have just seen the overnight thread comments by a certain Andrew!
1. You all need to ignore him.
2. Don’t comment on the thread until Mike bans him.
Simple and effective! Just isolate him
134 Maybe that was the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or whatever take!
The Petition now has 25,814 signatures. It should move into fourth place within a couple of hours, and be in the top spot by the Afternoon.
alex @134
yes i find it a complete mystery. Why didn’t they just do another take?
Be very truthful here. Would you really want to be the person who said to Brown:
Prime Minister, I sorry but we need to shoot that again, you came over like a cross between Hannibal Lecter & The Joker.
The Downing Street petition system isn’t very impressive. Five Tony Blairs and one Anthothy Blair have signed the petition asking for The PM to resign. Surely multiple voting should not be allowed.
141 You’d lie, surely, making out that you forgot to put the tape in the camera before shooting the clip. Either that or you made sure you unclipped your Fuzzy Tree lapel badge before entering No.10
128 & 134 “First - how did this video clip ever see the light of day?”
Because it’s on the No 10 website under the tab No10tv.
139 - Peter from Putney at 6:57 am - ‘Maybe that was the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or whatever take!’
I am having difficulty in imagining just how bad the first half dozen takes might have been.
But honestly, a man with his huge ego would want to see the end product again and again and again before releasing it to an expectant and adoring world - and if he did, what does it tell you about the man that he thinks that is him at his best?
144 Thanks for reminding me Geoff, that was to have been my third question:
OK, it found its way onto YouTube, but how in God’s name did it ever get onto No. 10’s own website?
140. Sean - rate of growth yesterday averaged 377 an hour during UK working hours, out of a total of about 5,500.
Getting to the top spot today will depend on the amount of blog coverage, and on those who supported the petition taking the time to email it to contacts and ask them to garner as many signatures as possible. The signing process is relatively onerous, and many just don’t like the idea of signing up at a government website.
Notwithstanding that, the indications so far are that if it keeps attracting interest there is a wide enough body of support for it to go “truly viral” - never forget that there are now 25,814 people watching for it’s progress and encouraging others to sign.
Be one of them.
For Martin Coxall, and the more intelligent Tories on here.
Re. Phillip Blond
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2009/01/red-toryism.html
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/04/28/red-tory/
145 Mirthios - Perhaps Mandy was screaming at him throughout: “Look happy and user friendly, imagine you’re out of office, think Cape Cod.”
The amendment to todays Lib Dem motion on the Gurkhas signed by 71 Labour MPs includes: “…..believes that the new guidelines announced by the Government for the settlement of former Gurkha soldiers are restrictive, morally wrong and offensive to Gurkhas…”
With other MPs such as Nick Palmer (of this Parish) declaring that he will support the original Liberal Democrat motion, [341] on previous thread, surely the Labour leadership will be defeated.
139/141 - true. It’s a shame that i can’t find the clip from Yes Prime Minister of the Party Political Broadcast on Youtube. Someone needs to find it and put it up for comparison! Very similar, from memory.
“The Ministerial Broadcast”, it was called.
109. Oracle. Actually the UK government has stocks of both t@miflu and Relenz@. It has 10.6 million courses of Relenz@ and 22.2 million courses of T@miflu.
While T@miflu might have been ineffective against the winter strain of flu, I don’t know. If that is true, it could spell trouble - someone who gets both Swine flu and last year’s flu could see the two viruses intermingle and it is possible that anti-viral resistance could spread to Swine flu.
Swine flu is serious. Even if it is no more serious than SARS - which turned out to be difficult to transmit, SARS knocked economic activity in the countries it seriously affected by between 0.2 and 1.8% of GDP.
It could become disastrous. If it spreads into the developing world which has no stores of anti virals and poor healthcare, the mortality rates could turn out to be Mexican. And worryingly it could be that this Spring/Summer spread could be a dress rehearsal for a serious epidemic in the Autumn/winter.
Can I remind everyone that the word “bot” has been banned by OGH. I don’t know why anyone bothers to interact with the twit upthread. He offers absolutely no analysis or insight, making the likes of Tim, Ermintrude, ed and Jonathan look bright and incisive.
On topic, Brown will no doubt wriggle free, but with a little less authority again. He is really very short termist.
148
A smear in your first sentence at 7.17 am, things must be desperate in the bunker.
Re the petition, Guido has an explanation why its been so slow in updating
http://www.order-order.com/2009/04/downing-street-petition-site-broke-yesterday/
Here for all to see is our Great Leader inall his glory talking of MP’s expenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBXj5l6ShpA
148. Tim. Thank you for that. I won’t go into too much detail but I have at least one problem with the statement taken from Harry’s Place:
“In May 2008, the British grocery market was worth £134.8bn. Of this, the big four supermarkets took £98.6bn, a 73 per cent market share. In the name of competition we have happily handed over our high streets to Tesco, strangling local commerce. The more that price is our only measure of competition, the bigger the economies of scale required to compete, and the higher the barriers to entry for small local competitors.”
Actually 4 firms sharing a market of 73% is totally acceptable in anti-monopoly terms. It’s stupid to claim otherwise. However, there is an issue over local monopolies. If one wasnt to take price as an indicator of competition, it is difficult to see what else would be. I don’t share his view that all those small butchers, greengrocers etc were that great.
I reckon that GB has something up his sleeve.
Whatever you say about him he is quite adept at making himself come out on the side of survival.
Remember Glenrothes when hardly anybody gave him a prayer.But he knew because he went to the constituency and won easily.
I believe a compromise amendment will be tabled which will give him a getout or the amendment by the cross party mps will simply not be tabled.
Could be an interesting day…
I reckon that GB has something up his sleeve.
Whatever you say about him he is quite adept at making himself come out on the side of survival.
Remember Glenrothes when hardly anybody gave him a prayer.But he knew because he went to the constituency and won easily.
I believe a compromise amendment will be tabled which will give him a getout or the amendment by the cross party mps will simply not be tabled.
Could be an interesting day…
Where is Hazel Blears going with this on the BBC?
“The recession can be a “catalyst for communities to come together”, Hazel Blears will say in a speech later.
The communities secretary will argue the effects of economic crisis can have the “constructive” effect getting people more involved in politics.”…
“Ms Blears will say: “In some ways the democratic recession started many months before the economic one.
“We’d already seen the collapse of trust in politics, long before the collapse of confidence in the financial system.
“I am in no doubt whatsoever that the row over MPs’ allowances, and the leaked emails, are as corrosive to our democracy as the row over bankers’ bonuses and the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, Woolworths and so on is corrosive to our economy.”
Surely she is not saying that the recession is a good thing if it can sort out the mess in No10.
109
The reports from the US are that Tami_flu is proving very effective at dealing with this particlar strain of the virus. Probably more luck than judgement but that at least gives me hope that the stockpiles we have will be the right ones.
Sorry for dupe
tim @148
As a Tory, who likes to think of myself as intelligent, thanks for the links. I’ll add another (the original)
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10608
I actually don’t think that Mr Blond (does he work with Mr Pink?) actually understands the difference between Thatcherim and Blairism. As a fan of the Iron Lady, this annoys me. I can happily argue the pros & cons of Thatcherism, but my opponent has to understand what it means.
Thatcher’s solution was markets. She wanted to bring competition to bear, thereby improving services & reducing prices. Blair by comparison was a corporatist. He liked to work closely with big business. This often leads to a reduction in competition.
Moreover, what he is suggesting is that the Tories should tack left. Tactically speaking maybe they should, and maybe they shouldn’t. But when the most influential New Labour think tank makes such suggestions, as its own party faces electoral meltdown, you have to at least question his motives.
The article contains this line
So the unanticipated bequest of an unlimited liberalism is that most illiberal of entities: the controlling state.
Which is complete tripe. What it means is that a liberal society, where people are free to make their own decisions, does not create the outcomes that lefties want. So they have to create a controlling state to change that. If you view personal freedom as an end in itself, then this is completely unnecessary.
153. MTF. That isnt a smear. It’s a statement of fact. Let’s save the “smear” allegations for the stuff that actually deserves it.
MIKE. I hae a comment in moderation about Swine flu at 152.
Ive long held that parliamentary voting rebellion (or series of) is a key element in shifting Brown out of No.10.
Thanks to Labour Party rules that make moving him by competition somewhat difficult, the only way is to make his ability to operate impossible, allowing the grey suits to come in.
Should this therefore get to voting stage we’ll see just how the PLP feels and whether at the last moment they are willing to agree to some deal being stitched together, no matter how crap, rather than send Brown down to defeat.
155 - I think it varies a lot from town to town.
Ludlow,Clitheroe, Bury st Edmonds from my experience all have very healthy independent sectors.
Other places are bereft.
Predatory pricing on bread seems to have been a successful tactic used by supermarkets in some areas which has done a good job on bakers.
My main issue is that their veg fruit and and meat tastes of nothing.
Anyway, Blonds idea are certainly interesting.
161. Serf. While I dont disagree with your overall conclusions, it is worth pointing out that liberalised markets require more complex rules and competent regulators. When BT was a monopoly you didnt need someone trying to come up with rules.
See Steven Vogel “freer markets, more rules”
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Freer-Markets-More-Rules-Regulatory/dp/0801485347/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240987662&sr=8-2
165. Tim. Yes, to the issue of predatory pricing especially bread. Also their stuff is as bland as anything.
On topic.
Brown is (unwittingly?) risking a defeat here because of the closeness of the issue to MPs. Every MP facing reelection must know that their opponents will be watching carefully to see how they vote, what they support and (once they come out), how those votes tally with their actions and claims. A potential Labour rebellion is not simply a matter of a lack of confidence in Brown’s judgement or a principled stance - though there may be some of both in the reasoning - but also a skin-saving operation.
MPs need now to appear whiter than white, in that famous phrase. The interesting question is why Brown feels the need to move so quickly and without cover - it’s most unlike him to do that. Usually, he is the one who likes to get wideranging support for a policy before going ahead with it. Kicking the proposals to the Parliamentary Commissioner ought to be a tactic straight out of his own book. Could it be the reason he doesn’t want to is that he can’t then influence the decision? If so, it’s muddled thinking. Why does he need to influence the decision if the MPs are themselves happy to take the chance?
Is his leadership on the line because of it? No - it’s not a big enough issue. A defeat would represent some loss of authority but prime ministers have suffered worse and survived, even ones in as weak a position as Brown is in. Labour prime ministers who don’t want to go are extremely difficult to shift (as Brown himself observed for ten years). Unless there is widespread and open revolt against Brown’s leadership itself - ie not just individual measures - and an alternative ready to offer him/herself, Gordon should be safe until the General Election. The Euro- and Council elections might just throw up that scenario but it’s still odds-against by some long way.
167 - Pressure on growers to grow bland, good looking varieties is also a restriction of consumer choice.
126
Except RedMeteor that all the dire warnings about hundreds of thousands of people dying of Mad Cow disease did in fact turn out to be hyped garbage. What we have in fact is a couple of hundred cases over the last 10 years.
So the BSE scare is a perfect example of a hyped disaster that never materialised.
The trouble is that actually I agree with you that something like these influenza pandemics could well be absolutely catastrophic. But the unfounded scares of the last 30 years or so, often driven by political rather than scientific emphasis, have made people suspect of any potential threat - real or imagined.
Crying wolf has become a dangerous reality which will harm us greatly when a real threat comes along (as it inevitably will or may be doing now.)
When left of centre journalists start attacking the Tories from the right, you know that there has been a sea-change:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/alice_miles/article6188480.ece
168. Seems reasonable. But what’s gone wrong with Brown’s judgement that he’s making an issue of something that could have simply sorted itself out in time?
Perhaps he’s trying to seize it as his own issue. But his behaviour is weird.
ken @166
I agree that where there are natural monopolies, the role of the regulator is extremely important. We can also see what the failure of regulation led to in the financial sector.
My argument is that someone who is a pragmatic free marketeer, would support strong and effective regulation, whereas a corporatist would tend to do what big business wants.
Regulators, that focuses on the real risks, and ares not scared to act, are in all of our interests. The problem arises when politicians think that more is better. Yet even the pathetic box ticking exercise that is the FSA could have made a difference if they had actually acted.
On topic, Gordon Brown seems to be willing his own destruction. If he has one undeniable skill, it is as a political operator. He must know how dangerous this is for him.
I wonder if he is like a man in a failing relationship who wants out but who doesn’t want to get the flak for bringing things to an end.
Correction
There was a typo in the Brown going by the election price in the main article. It was in fact 7/4.
174. I’m beginning to suspect the same. Perhaps somewhere in GBs tortured psyche, he simply wants to walk away from the whole mess.
168 - Gordon Brown should indeed be safe until the next election. But that still makes this avoidable, corrosive and embarrassing revolt avoidable, corrosive and embarrassing. Why is he alienating the very people he needs to keep relatively quiet? It baffles me.
I have just finished putting the finishing touches to Gords brief announcement when he steps down aa PM
“It was the right thing to do”
The Labour Party has the TINA problem.
O/T I will be quite surprised if Soderling doesn’t beat Crivoi in straight sets today in the Rome tennis. The 27 year old Crivoi has only won 2 ATP matches on clay in his career, ranked at 112 in the world.
Soderling (ranked 27) looked in top-form yesterday in beating the handy Granollers for the loss of just 3 games. The Swede’s return to form continues following from injury last year and I think it’s going to be very hard for Crivoi to break our man’s serve and hold his own. I recommend you take the 4/5 with bet365.com on a 2-0 Soderling win.
The sign of New Labour dominance was when all their media scrutiny came from the left. That the reverse is now happening with the Tories is the surest sign that they have positioned themselves slap bang where they want to be for electoral success.
179 - I’d put it the other way around: Labour has a superfluity of alternatives. If a coronation could be arranged, any of Alan Johnson, David Miliband, Jack Straw, Harriet Harman, John Reid, Alistair Darling, David Blunkett, Ed Miliband, James Purnell or Ruth Kelly would lead the Labour party into an election better than Gordon Brown. No doubt others would add other names to this list. However, a coronation cannot be arranged, precisely because several on this list would think their claim at least as good as anyone else’s. And without a coronation, all that happens is that the mess has got worse, not better.
antifrank - 182 - “add other names to the list who would lead the Labour party into an election better than Gordon Brown.”
Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer, Peter Gurney, Peter Davy, Dan’l Whiddon, Harry Hawke, Old Uncle Tom Cobley and all?
Enough of this over night trivia: BREAKING NEWS -
1. Couple in Scotland who were not very ill in first place are getting better.
2. fr has his prescription for chlorestoral tablets renewed for next year
3. It’s a very nice morning here in Staffordshire.
184 “Couple in Scotland who were not very ill in first place are getting better.”
Probably better by the hour as the tabloid offers for “MY SWINE FLU HELL” come pouring in.
I thought it may be a bit of clever manouvering when it first came out to try and make the tories and lib dems look like clinging to the old system and being greedy. Instead it’s been a disaster for Brown, slagged off from all sides, plus that stupid youtube video he did made him look just plan wierd.
The petition just topped 26k. 2272 from top spot.
150 - Nick Palmer has signed neither EDM 1358 - SETTLEMENT FOR FORMER GURKHA SOLDIERS nor EDM 1362 - SETTLEMENT FOR FORMER GURKHA SOLDIERS AND THE HOME AFFAIRS SELECT COMMITTEE so far.
Ketchup with the feet, Mr Palmer?
Note to S&S re last thread. SSI says that the national picture is the overriding reason for Specter’s switch, of course there are demographics and electability issues and so on but that is a comfort blanket for you, if the national GOP was closer to Specter’s views there would be no problem.
In the early 80’s I was in the labour party that swung to the left, everyone thought that was no problem because the electorate had no other option when the government’s shine faded. Eighteen years later they finally escaped the pit they’d hurled themselves into.
You are hurling yourselves into that pit. Take the advice or leave it but the electorate sent a message which you are yet to pick up.
Personally I’d like a more moderate Republican party and a better opposition.
BTW - Good to see a good discussion on US politics again yesterday, maybe an article on Obama’s/Congress’s ratings so far would be useful.
Clegg on the Gurkha Motion this afternoon.
Mr Clegg said that there was an obligation to allow Gurkhas who have fought for Britain to settle there, and warned that the Prime Minister must find his moral compass soon if he is to avoid defeat in a vote this afternoon on last week’s residency ruling.
He said the basic principle is that, “if people are prepared to fight and die for our country, they have the right to settle here”.
He added this afternoon’s debate and vote “is an opportunity for all MPs…this is a Prime Minister who once said he had a moral compass - he’s got to find it quickly”.
He went on to say the government is “in truly despicable fashion are trying to scare people” with the use of “totally fictional numbers” regarding the number of former Gurkhas who could settle in Britain under more relaxed rules.
“This ruling would mean Gurkha’s who fought in the Falklands war would have no right to settle here”.
This may be even more the embarrassment to the government rather than the expenses row which may fizzle out as Gordon backs down on the attendance bit and the Tories support most of the ideas apart from the attendance allowance
From the order paper, I see that the first two questioners at PMQs are Bill Cash and Sir Michael Spicer. Could be interesting.
Morning all and could we really make it up?
Brown gets filmed and shown on main ITN 10 pm news losing his cool with an ITN reporter
Brown goes to Poland to “hide” and ends up getting a lecture from the Polish PM on economics in the middle of their news conference.
Brown tells the media he has the right ideas in tune with public thinking and half an hour later a senior parliamentary committee announces it is sticking two fingers to his ideas.
This man and his bunker needs a “spring clean” or even better simply flushed away!
http://www.politicshome.com/Landing.aspx?Blog=7416&perma=link#7416
The political establishment believe that Michael Portillo would be a deserving candidate for a peerage under a Cameron government – with the exception of those on the right of the political spectrum.
Mirthios Nick has said on PB ([341] previous thread) that he will support the Liberal Democrat motion rather than the watered down (my words) Labour back bench amendment.
I am preparing a membership pack for the Honourable Member for Broxtowe as we speak!
189 - I was thinking along exactly the same lines. What S & S seemed to be arguing was 198os Bennery US style: ideological purity is all we need, the more and faster those SDP traitors leave, the better. Those not for us are against us etc. As if such a ‘choice’ would attract not repel! Obama and the Ds surely can’t believe their luck.
Good article Mike.
What does a PM have if he has no authority?
It was obvious what Cameron and Clegg had to do in response to Brown’s expenses plan. If they declined to support it, Brown’s authority is so lacking that there would be nothing left of it.
I’ve long thought that Brown would be got out, one way or another, before the election. One PMQs at which he loses it could bring a wall of shame and ridicule on him, about which the PLP would be forced to act… surely! Straw is then the safe pair of hands until the election.
Flicked through the Mail today. The most significant story may be that Harman’s anti-white male legislation could throw into jeopardy the presenter lineup on Top Gear.
Apparently women can only enjoy a television programme if they see a woman presenting it.
Remind me again which people are treating women as inferior?
Pudsey Bear refused passport…
135.”It seems pretty much agreed in the Media that there will be a Cabinet re-shuffle on or about 10 June, pretty much immediately following the local & Euro elections.”
Media briefings etc before hand might detract form leadership talk etc in that period? Didn’t Blair trail one and then carry it out the day after poor local elections a few years ago?
Andrew B reminds me of Labour supporters in the 80s. It looks like mentally he believes the Tories are back in power. How defeatist.
F1: Red Bull at 3/1 look decent for the Constructors’ title. They’re getting a new diffuser soon, I think, and are already about equal with Brawn.
LS @193
Portillo a peerage, for what? Backstabbing and sneering from the sidelines is now worthy of a seat in the upper house?
From a Labour point of view I would have given him one years ago, but viewed from the blue corner he is pure poison.
197 - Good!
194. Icarus.
Of course, the Labour backbench amendment won’t be selected for debate. Nor will the Tory one.
[197] the joke is it has been refused as frivolous but her “real” name is apparently: Eileen De Bont!
200 - About equal, yeah half of the points!
199 - If the ‘b.’ in andrew b. doesn’t stand for ‘bot’ what does it stand for?
194 - I really can’t believe how wrong the Government got this one. Immigration is a very sensitive subject, but the British public would surely strongly support giving rights of residency to anyone who had served honourably in the British armed forces, even in the grip of a deep recession. If someone risks his neck on my behalf, I feel an obligation towards him. That applies to the Gurkhas and to anyone else past or present in our armed forces. We owe them that.
Lot of Clegg about these days. Lib Dems to rise in the opinion polls/betting markets?
201 - Serf - Backstabbing and sneering from the sidelines is now worthy of a seat in the upper house?
Lord Peter?
mirthios @209
Lord Peter
Yes but he did so in the services of his own party, not the opposition.
207. A straight swap - Gurkhas free settlement rights, no more immigration from Pakistan would be hugely popular IMHO. Somehow I can’t see the government going for it though.
antifrank - 182 - “add other names to the list who would lead the Labour party into an election better than Gordon Brown.”
mirthios at 8:18 am :”Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer, Peter Gurney, Peter Davy, Dan’l Whiddon, Harry Hawke, Old Uncle Tom Cobley and all?”
How about Tinky Winky and Lala? Osama Bin Laden? Or possibly a really appealing figure like Derek Draper?
211, it’d provoke a lot of anger from a section of society which is partly prone to enjoying outrage and victimhood.
On the other hand, we’d have a few thousand hard as nails Gurkhas to keep them in line
Oh, and I just signed the petition.
196.You are joking? Top Gear is successful because of the presenter mix, don’t fix what ain’t broken. Plenty of women in the audience every week too.
That headline in the Mail was damaging for Harman, very similar to those we saw during the Henley/C&N by elections. Oops I did it again springs to mind, she might be laying out her stall to the Labour grassroots, but it ain’t going to help if it pushes her down popularity stakes with the public. If the last Conservative leadership contest is anything to go by, there would be intense scrutiny of the candidates public appeal too.
John Rentoul mused about the ‘Bob Hawke’ scenario last Sunday- Hawke replaced Bill Hayden just before the Australian election in 1982 (Malcolm Fraser thought he could beat Hayden, only to find himself up against a street fighter in Hawke). Johnson versus Cameron would be interesting (or Denham)
214, I’m hoping the story is exaggerated. But knowing the feminazi lunacy of Harman I’m not so sure.
207
That is because they have never understood why people oppose wholesale immigration. The government cannot conceive that there is any other reason than racism and xenophobia. They treat the public like children and ascribe to them simplistic childish reasoning.
People do not oppose immigration per se (at least 99% do not). What they oppose is a complex collection of issues including lack of integration, overcrowding leading to huge amounts of new building and a strain on services and the givernment combination of lack of control combined with lies about the real extent of the problem.
When faced by individual situations people are more than able to make an educated decision about who they want to share their country with. They also have an inate sense of justice and know that the Gurkha cause is just. As such they recognise that even if it were to cause us some inconvenience (which I don’t actually believe it will) then we have a duty towards these men.
213. It would be a huge blow to Labour’s electoral prospects as well, which is the key point.
214 - There is a massive waiting list to be part of the Top Gear audience.
And the BBC won’t let all male parties go on the list - it insists on a gender-balanced audience…
There is a problem within the company. Customers know there is a problem. Competitors know there is a problem. Some of the staff know there is a problem. But the CEO and the directors do not want to know. They repeatedly say there is no problem.
But then it blows up and puts the future of the company at risk. The CEO calls in help to sort it out and promises that it will be by the start of the next financial year. The markets do not like it and the share price plummets putting at risk not only the share options but also the directors’ bonus.
The CEO comes up with his own ideas to sort it out without discussing the matter with those he has called in to help. Trouble is it CEO’s solution does not appear to be very good, the markets do not like it, the competitors see significant opportunities to gain market share and see off what had been the market leader. The staff wonder what is going on.
Discuss what the Board should now do. Before recommending what action should be taken, you should consider the processes by which the problem has reached the stage where the future survival of the company is now at risk
49 - oh dear you really are a troll arent you.
” Cameron hasn’t had a single question asked of him, and you know it.”
I must have just imagined all those tough interviews I saw him handle then…….
Compare and contrast with one Gordon Brown…..
As for ” he is not competent, and he is not PM material.”
Step forward one Gordon Brown who fits that description perfectly.
Face it, Labour and in particular Gordon Brown have inflicted real, lasting damage on this country.
I will not forgive them for this and if you talk to real people you will find more and more detest what is being done to this country.
As an example my Brother is (or should I say WAS) a lifelong Labour supporter. No more, they have lost him for at least 10 years I would imagine.
People at work who were in the past never interested in politics now are very angry (and I mean angry not annoyed) with Labour.
There is no way back, its over, the fat lady is warming up back stage.
Good riddance.
More bad news for Cameron ! if brown goes, hung parliament would be a strong possibility…surly the tories are praying that brown stays ?
In all my days I never saw such a ‘no-brainer’ cause and still the Government get it badly wrong.
The Gurkhas plus Joanna Lumley equals a bunch of heroes backed by a national treasure.
Next it will be a ban on ‘mom and apple pie’ or whatever is the UK equivalent.
207. antifrank. I don’t want to defend the government position (which was also the position of previous governments btw), but contractually Gurkhas who served before 1997 knew that they didnt get UK settlement rights. This was because the Gurkhas were headquartered in HK (and a battalion in Brunei). With the end of Empire, the position of the Gurkhas became anomalous - this was the solution.
Now, I happen to think that this was wrong - the Gurkhas of all those who serve in HM Armed Forces, are amongst those who are worthy of praise. Allowing them in would have been good for the UK (just as giving passports to the HK chinese would have been sensible). But, the legal position is actually pretty explicit. Various Conservative Defence ministers should be forced to recant and accept some of the blame.
207. Compare this with the French Foreign Legion, although their entry regulations have tightened up in recent years, it was a way in which many SS war criminals and members of East European secret police services evaded justice. Legionnaires can after 3 years service apply for French citizenship, if they have served with “honour and fidelity.” A legionnaire wounded in battle can apply for citizenship under “Français par le sang versé” (French by spilled blood). Give the French credit, they fully understand and respect the concept of honour!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_foreign_legion#Legion_membership
Gender balanced - the mind boggles!
223, not just that but there’s an enormous contrast between porous borders for the world and his cat, but ridiculously stringent measures to prevent thousands of men who fought for us living here.
222
If Brown went surely the clamour for a GE would be enormous.
Meanwhile, amongst the 41 signatures currently surviving…
Vaal Ewes
Planning Election Party Already
Ewe Turn
Endo Boomnbust
David Cameron
The military Wing of the BBC
Jimmy Cricket
Gordon Brown
Erica I Tstartedinam
I like tea cakes
Still can’t get to 10 REAL signatures then
Tacky Jacqui-Smith
Utta Leigh Bonkers
What’s the point of petitions if more than 100 signatures are removed overnight? Censorship?
How sad. No-one wants you Brown. Just GO!
Wibble Wobble I like Playing With My Farmy Farm
george bush
SNP
“half a brain”, overly generous IMHO
S. Notgobbler
Hazel Blears
U Musbejokin
Ghost of the Flying Nokia
223. I’m sure Labour would ban all expressions of British (and especially English) identity entirely if they thought they could get away with it.
225. The concept, perhaps, but not the realite…NB their behaviour in 1940-1941,,,
212. NigelJ. O.B. Laden (or some such spelling) has already expressed his support for Gordon to continue as PM on the “other” petition.
228. but the result, nowhere near as satisfying
What time does the debate start ? I will be watching alongside the snooker.
The question is, on which side do I have the sound on ?
229, I especially liked the Ghost of the Flying Nokia. Loyal, even after death! A true Brownite.
223.”The Gurkhas plus Joanna Lumley equals a bunch of heroes backed by a national treasure.”
Just look at the success of the charity Help For Heroes over the last couple of years. They have played an important part in the UK military operation for years, and the government would be mad to underestimate their popularity among the UK public.
William Hague should know better… this sort of thing breeds complacency.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6188749.ece
196 - This is by no means bad news, for it offers to opportunity for the return of Vicki Butler Henderson (drool, gibber etc)
224
It could not have been the position of previous governments since the situation did not exist prior to 1997 as we still had control of Hong Kong.
There is a world of difference between asking someone to settle in a British colony where they are respected and admired and in a province of an antipathetic government which at times actively supported and armed the very people the Gurkhas were fighting.
Last point on petitions before I go to bed.
A petition in late 2006 for Blair to resign garnered only 515 signatures. http://tinyurl.com/dh5mbn
It got a response, too!
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/who-will-be-the-first-arsehole-to-wear–a-facemask?-200904291731/
“Emma Bradford, a marketing assistant from Hatfield, said: “My friend Janet is pathetically melodramatic. She wore one during the foot and mouth outbreak in 2001 because she said it really accentuated her eyelashes.”"
229 Nice to see the farmy-farm meme on the No 10 website!
238. RT. Sophistry. We had negotiated the return of HK years before 1997 and no provisions were made for those who were demobbed post the agreed handover and 1997.
Previous governments preferred not to have the Gurkhas based in the UK.
240.Apparently both Chanelle and Chantelle of BB and CBB fame are possible victims of Swine Flu.
I have always understood that entry to Britain was a privilege but not a right and that the Home Secretary had discretionary powers to block or admit individuals on a case by case basis. Surely the HS could intervene in such a way that Gurkhas could be allowed to stay without setting the ‘precedent’ which is the excuse the Government is trotting out.
As mentioned up thread, National Heroes supported by National Treasure should be a no brainer, the mind boggles as to how they can’t see it.
243
lest we forget…
244 I have always thought that foreign citizens who serve in our armed forces should be granted citizenship. There would have to be a few conditions (minimum length of service, honourable discharge, revoked in the event you commit a crime of a certain level of seriousness). It’s a no-brainer to me.
244. “Sentiment can lead to bad decisions, Minister”. “It would set a terrible precedent, Minister”. It’s the geniuses in the Civil Service.
246, it’s obvious to everyone except the Government. Seeing Woolas bleat about being accused of treason in his godawful voice was not a high point of PR. I hope he’s on QT. Doubt it though.
243 - The original variant or the one which can be passed to humans?
(miaow)
244. Where there’s a will, there’s a way - parliament is sovereign and can do what it likes.
But there isn’t a will.
242
But you cannot claim as you seem to be doing that previous governments took the same line since they were never in a position to take action one way or another. You have no way of knowing how they might have reacted when the actual situation arose and they had to make a decision. What we do know is how this government has reacted and it is dispicable.
Any other arguments do nothing other than attempt to assuage the guilt of the current administration
222,
Deluded Drivlle From A Deluded Labour Supporter !! PATHETIC!!
245/249.Shame on you both.I love old Chanelle Hayes.She made me more money on one glorious afternoon than HRC did in her whole life.
My reluctant advice to Chanelle and Chantelle is to wrap up warm for now.
246 – Phil C, “minimum length of service, honourable discharge, revoked [ ] etc”
Eminently sensible suggestion, I agree entirely.
FPT: Hats=off to Nick (post 341). Not bad for a kid raised in Argentina!
Off-topic: Oh God, the disease* is spreading…!
* I know that I should not say this, but will Me try to propagated his last game next…?
248 - Nope this week we are in Great Yarmouth, with Hilary Benn, Andrew Lansley, Frank Skinner (WTF), Leanne Wood (Plaid Member of the Welsh Assembly, WTF) and one mystery guest.
256, ugh. I fail to see why a Plaid person is on for a Great Yarmouth edition.
Be interesting to see how Benn does.
Average weekly earnings fell by 5.8% in February, biggest fall since records began! Admittedly records only began in 2001…
246 They are - Commonwealth soldiers IIRC get residency after 4 years service. The Gurkhas currently serving get same. Its the ones who served before the rle changes.
The difference is in part because fear of mass migration of Hong Kong residents post return to China meant Major’s government fixed rules and legal status of Hong Kong to limit right of entry.
257 - Lansley was a serendipitous choice considering, I agree why is a Plaid person on in Gt Yarmouth? Unless Gt Yarmouth has been annexed by Rhodri Morgan!
254 Indeed, I would make it a part of immigration law that if any naturalised citizen were found guilty of a crime of a certain magnitude, they would lose their citizenship and right to remain…
… practically it would cause problems if they have children born in the UK though.
Similarly, if an asylum seeker commits rape or murder, it should be regarded as a request to be sent home. The offensiveness of the regime we are sending them to shouldn’t matter, as committing a serious crime is a choice made by the individual who could have simply chosen not to do it.
261, I agree. If you murder or rape then you forfeit your right to sanctuary in this country.
It was outrageous that the Italian murderer of a headteacher couldn’t be deported to Italy because he didn’t speak Italian or know people there.
259 I never understood that, Hong Kong was a thriving, entrepreneurial capitalist society, surely they would have done us good. I would have allowed anyone in with capital over a certain limit, plus public servants with good employment records.
262 In his case, it was a little different - IIRC he had come to the UK as a child and although his father was Italian I think his mother was a Filipina. I don’t think deportation would be right in those circumstances…
… being a pedant, it annoyed me that the press couldn’t get his surname right, pronounced Kindamo in Italian (just as “paninis” annoys me intensely)
BBC banner says Van maker LDV have applies to go into administration.
262 - I am not sure I agree MD. When a person commits a crime, they implicitly break a social pact and are consequently deprived of their liberty or of some of their property. The danger with then deporting them in all circumstances is that you are effectively dehumanising them as a result of a crime. Yes there are some circumstances that deportation is right and should be persued, there are others when it isn’t and shouldn’t be persued.
261. Far too sensible. Instead, Labour proposes to allow prisoners to vote.
250. Runnymede. Technically it is the Queen in parliament is sovereign.
268. Ho hum ken, yes.
243 Would it be possible to import swine flu into the big Brother house. then we would be spared 2 months of another 10 nonentities engaging in trivial pastimes and on air sexual activities in the name of “entertainment”.
Icarus, I am a news addict and can only think of seeing Clegg on once in the past 48 hours. Saint Vince of the Cablenet on the other hand is virtually superglued to the political hack chair in most studios, so I expect to see the Lib Dem majority in Twickenham exceed that of all 25 other LibDem constituencies after the GE combined
As asked at Labour Home - who will do him in first, the party or the public? It’s a very telling remark, my betting is that the party is spineless.
A must for Stuart, and all the other contributors from, ‘North of the border’
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/two-scottish-people-feeling-a-bit-run-down-200904281729/
In agreement with Morris Dancer & Phil C @261 & 262
I still cannot believe that they gave citizenship to one of the failed London bombers, despite his having a serious criminal record.
When it comes to immigration, the rules should be simply designed to achieve this……Those that come will be a benefit to society.
You wouldn’t invite people to dinner who would upset your other guests. Why do we invite those who offer nothing, and bar those who have risked everything?
68 Ken there appear to be a lot of Queens in Parliament. We have drama queens, certain male politicians who behave like the colloquial “queens”, the queen of spite, the queen of comedy and of course the queen of tragedy.
with that lot it is hardly surprising Her Maj only goes there once a year.
273. ‘I still cannot believe that they gave citizenship to one of the failed London bombers, despite his having a serious criminal record.’
It tells you all you need to know about the motivations behind immigration policy, I think.
72 Coldstone, you are quite correct. A virtual non-story has been turned into a major story. Honeymoon couple sneeze and run a slight temperature = Swine flu is about to lay low 40% of the British public.
The tories next election poster just needs to have that picture of Brown, and something like “5 more years of him? Vote tory” and a landslide ensues. He’s just so…weird.
256. I remember Frank Skinner being terribly, terribly irritating on the BBC 97 election night coverage.
Good morning campers.
Another day in which we will have to suffer the loony Brown in PMQ’s going even madder than he is already.
Another day for companies to go bankrupt or into administration.
Another day of swine flu scares which fills the labour front bench with slimey glee, when they think they are seen to be doing something positive at last.
Another day of deepening recession.
Another day of this Labour government.
When will this torture end, when, when?
Phew! Got that off my chest. Good morning.
andrew b is quite pathetic.
Cameron actually faught a leadership election campaign which is more than brown ever did.
Brown is the victim of how own misguided policies and actions. People are entitled to treat him with contempt.
Browns appearance on You Tube is clearly an ‘emperor has no clothes’ moment. He has serially pissed off his own back-benchers and exposed his incompetence. One wonders if its deliberate - finding an issue for him to resign?
Certainly he is back at the stage before the credit crunch hit. Then I said he was toast and would not last ’til Christmas. Now he will struggle to last until September, indeed survive beyond June.
The issue is clear - if you are a labour voter wanting to get rid of Brown - vote Tory in the June elections. A wipe out will get rid of Brown. You will probably get Straw.
Top Gear - they have that German woman on don’t they? She’s pretty quick too.
152 (Ken) have you got a link to those figures? Because all I keep reading is 33 million lots of Tam@flu! Is it the media doing a half arsed job again?
Here is an example of where I got my info,
The UK Government already has a stockpile of around 33 million doses of Tam@flu, ordered as a precaution against a pandemic.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8017585.stm
No mention of anything but Tam@flu!
Pravda getting things wrong, I certainly hope not!
192 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6185051.ece
Is there a country left in the world that has now not snubbed or lectured Gordon Brown. He’s an embarrassment and an international laughing stock.
Arise, Lord Portillo? WTF! Are they crazy? Probably.
283
Another good reason for a democratically elected lords. Does anyone else find it a little distasteful that the political and media elite get to decide who sits in Lords?
281. Oracle.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7857824.stm
Brown wont go quietly . And there’s noreal untainted replacement. All it would show up is the disaster of the last 12 years when they all slavishly followed browns lines, and crowned him unelected by any contest. The Labour party are one bunch of fools whove now been in too long. Ditching the guy now and rushing into an election with any untested new leader would be utter madness.
285 - Hmm, so either Pravda don’t know their arse from their elbow, or UK government have been playing swappies, as my link is from the current “scare”. Ken, could it be possible we swapped some of the other stuff for more Tam@flu?
280, Sabine Schmidt[sp] does appear from time to time, and I think presents German Top Gear permanently.
The French and British foreign ministers have been demanding that Sri Lankan forces cease fire in their war against the Tamil remnents.
Mr Kouchner said that he and Mr Miliband had “insisted and insisted”
But the Sri Lankans have raised two fingers up to the EU, and why not; if they dont finish the awr now on their terms it’s liable to drag on for many months.
76. Cameron and Osborne and Redwood and their tax cuts for the mega rich? Their whitling down of tax credits? Their chopping down and contracting out of the NHS, their privatisation of the school system, their deregulation of the City, their cuts in social services?
Those all sound terrific to me.
285
Ken, a couple of points on that article. Firstly it is from January and I understand that the government has been continuing to buy more Tam@flu with the aim of having enough for the whole population by the end of the year. As such I would not be surprised to find that they do now have the 33 million units of Tam@flu as claimed.
Secondly the US authorities are saying that both Tam@flu and Relenz@ have proved effective against this form porcine of the H1N1 virus but that two older anti-virals are not. It seems to me that having large stocks of both is a good idea.
I just signed the Brown to stay petition, but had to use my real name. I trust that I can rely on all on pb to keep my true identity a secret.
Admiral Horatio W Smurfburger III.
261. easy to say that, hard to formulate a rule, i guess. and these things have to operate on strict rules, however ridiculous the inevitable edge cases end up sounding.
anyway, once someone has “immigrated”, even if they are guilty of terrible crimes and have no family here, what makes you think their original country will take them?
253
I feel properly chastened
266 “The danger with then deporting them in all circumstances is that you are effectively dehumanising them as a result of a crime. Yes there are some circumstances that deportation is right and should be persued, there are others when it isn’t and shouldn’t be persued.”
I was only talking about crimes of a certain severity - say rape and murder and others of a similar level of severity (measured by the length of sentence).
My view is that you would not be deporting anyone. When someone applies for citizenship, they get to sign a piece of paper saying “I agree that if I commit a crime for which the punishment is X years or more in prison, it will be assumed that by doing so I have withdrawn my request for citizenship. In such circumstances, I agree that my citizenship and right to remain will be immediately revoked and I will be deported to XXXXXX”.
Not a deportation. Simply acceeding to an individual’s request to change their mind about citizenship.
It would be amusing, and a sad indictment of the Labour party, were Brown to be finally defenestrated after he was, at least partially, on the right side of the argument.
Asking MPs to submit receipts and forbidding MPs within Greater London from claiming the second homes allowance shouldn’t really be issues which bring the Prime Minister’s leadership into doubt.
If I don’t laugh, I am sure I would cry.
Waugh on the ball again,
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/04/why-the-car-scrappage-scheme-is-the-worst-govt-policy-in-years.html
280
So tories shoudl vote labour in June? Hmmm interesting!
Who are these people? Don’t they need to get a life?
It ruled the advert must not be shown again in its current form following complaints from 12 viewers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8023358.stm
resign now number three on the petition list (26743 signatures).
256 - Another one (Frank Skinner) for the yuff I assume! Now who was a better guest, Fern Britain, Will Young, or Professor David Starkey! Hmmmm, let me think……..
287. Oracle. The UK just bought the Zanamivir (relenza). It is an important drug as oseltamivir is now ineffective against some forms of flu. Zanamivir is trickier to administer, but there are far fewer viruses that show resistance. Here is a link to the press release from GSK.
http://www.prdomain.com/companies/G/GlaxoSmithKline/newsreleases/200913067227.htm
256 - Frank Skinner, “Being a supporter of both West Bromwich Albion and the Labour Party, [ ] I love the idea of the pleasing image of thousands of slightly premature David Cameron victory mugs being chucked into a skip”
No wonder he is like a rash all over Auntie. http://tinyurl.com/ckpy2v
Rats. Another comment in moderation at 301. I suspect it’s to do with mentioning one of the damn flu drugs.
Food for thought from Old Holborn
Brown is on the ropes, utterly, his own party is riven, the Blairites know that the experiment is over and three wins in a row is not going to be repeated therefore revenge is the order of the day for the humiliations intiated by the likes of McBride.
The Old Guard of the Labour Party have had enough and cannot stomach Brown a day longer
Jacqui Smith is finished and the Police are no longer fit for purpose follwing ten years of unaccountable politicisation.
Despite ‘Saving the World’ and abolishing ‘Boom and Bust’, world leaders are ridiculing Brown to his face.
PMQ’s today should sound the death knell for Brown, the Government benches opposite want to give in, they are tired and exhausted by the last two years. They certainly do not want to be sitting there in two months when the Tsunami of disgust from the voters overwhelms them when the MP’s expenses have to be published. Resignations will be two a penny, and the Brown Government will surpass the last Major Administration for hubris,vanity,incompetence and corruption.
So who is going to let Brown off, I am afraid it is going to be lightweight Cameron and his schoolchum Osborne. I sense that for them they believe it is their turn at playing with the levers of power.
I cannot find anybody Red,Blue, Yellow, Green supporting that has ANY confidence in Cameron, he just will not be Brown.
Cameron tries to be all things to all things to all men, that is not Leadership.
We had the failed Blue/Green experiment to court popularity (the only blue green entity I know is a toxic Algae.
He has discounted and sidelined the talent that is in the Libertarian wing of his party (Dan Hannan’s popularity was a huge personal embarrassment for Call me Dave)in his speech of September 2008 conference speech- ‘We are not a Libertarian Party’
But what sort of Party is the Cameroonian Party ? Buggered if I know, and I suspect that is the position of the Electorate.
294. seems a bit unfair to accept people conditionally like this.
there will then be an inevitable court case where a group are accused of some crime and the main perpetrator gets some short spell in prison while a lesser co-defendant is sent packing because of this bizarre provisional status. not exactly a model of justice and fairness.
298 - Similarly,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8020881.stm
It appears the Specsavers advert with Edith Piaf singing was the 9th most complained-about advert of last year, with 123 people thinking it ‘trivialised’ the life of Edith Piaf. WTF?
I rather liked that advert, actually.
301. he is funny. that is why he gets on TV.
303 Herbert - I think that just goes to show that Old Holborn is a twerp. He has clearly not only totally misjudged Cameron - the most formidable politician of the current generation, and very much a leader - but he can’t even get his playground insults right (”Cameron and his schoolchum Osborne”).
304. Hard luck
305 - Sounds like they need a good kick up the arse, like OfCom!
No.10 Petition to keep PM
Only 14 signatures survive, including:
•Ben O’Fitz-Scrounger
[152] - It could become disastrous. If it spreads into the developing world which has no stores of anti virals and poor healthcare, the mortality rates could turn out to be Mexican.
Or worse? What might the mortality rate be amongst those affected by AIDs?
On the one hand it is stated that this virus is disproportionately affecting the more healthy - ie those in their 30s, rather than the old and young. On the other hand it is also speculated that the virus has been more deadly in Mexico due to poverty, and presumably generally lower levels of health.
So I am confused on this point.
Where someone has residency rights but retains an alien citizenship (either joint with the UK or wholly foreign), I see no problem with deporting them when they’ve been given a custodial sentance over a set threshold after serious or persistent offending.
There’s more of a problem when the immigrant has changed their citizenship to only that of the UK. There’d surely be no requirement then for their previous country to take them back?
Slightly on-topic, I was just wondering what I’d want to happen regarding Brown if I were a Labour supporter.
Surely the party should unite as best it can? The present state of affairs is the worst of all worlds. No leadership change but no leadership either.
298/305 - To quote Josh Lyman, I think those people who complained must be members of the “There but for the Grace of God, Go I” Club
312 MD “The present state of affairs is the worst of all worlds. No leadership change but no leadership either.”
Yes, good, isn’t it?
wibbler What Hague said about the likelihood, and he stressed it was no more than that, of the Tories winning the election has to be seen in the context of his main message which was that there would be an immediate referendum on Lisbon in such circumstances.
Without expectation of the first the expectation of the second is academic and would not engage voters.
This message is the UKIP killer because only the Tories have any chance of calling this referendum, a vote for UKIP would achieve nothing but protest pleasure. And while that is most applicable to a GE it should not be underrated as a motivator for the Euros.
314, under more benign circumstances I’d agree, and I am pleased the Tories’ electoral prospects remain good. However, the clown in charge could do yet more serious damage to our economy in the time he has left clinging to power.
Where oh where did David Cameron go so badly wrong ? Let me count the ways:
1. He won an open and honest leadership election.
2. He won it against the odds
3. Almost single handedly he united the party
4. He got a good lead in the opinion polls before the economic crisis
5. He “wins” almost every PMQ
6. He is all things to all men (ie getting a majority on his side before an election - like Abraham Lincoln)
316 - However, the clown in charge could do yet more serious damage to our economy in the time he has left clinging to power.
I think that is a given!
316
It is meaningless in terms of the Euro elections because Tory MEPs as a group (with a couple of honourable exceptions) can and will do nothing about our relationship with the EU. As such a vote for UKIP in the Euro elections does nothing to undermine the chances of getting rid of Brown.
317. Ah, but he isn’t getting the 30%+ poll leads that Blair got 94-96.
320 - But can you rule out a 30% lead with Brown in charge though?
307.
Not long to wait for PMQ’s and I only hope Nick Clegg performs well
The Times: “More than 500 jobs were at risk this morning after LDV, the struggling British van maker owned by Oleg Deripaska, the Russian oligarch, filed for administration.”
Isn’t Oleg a yacht owner and very close personal friend of Lord Mandleson - who is known to have a penchant for Russians with big ones?
317.3 “Almost single handedly he united the party”
You give him too much credit on that one. The party largely came to that by itself, though the leadership of Howard marked the real start of the ‘unity’ period and Davis’ actions during and after the leadership contest also underlined the determination to stay united.
321. Well, seeing as Labour probably never were 30%+ ahead of the Tories, I would say its highly unlikely we’ll see a 30%+ Tory lead, though as ever nothing is impossible.
319. Con MEPs as a whole have been brutally exposed as some of the most outrageous passengers on the gravy train.
the whole thing is a tricky issue because, while very few people actually care about the EU, if it is allowed to build up any steam it will just remind people of the Con party, 1992-7
322, his main risk is that Cameron steals his Gurkha thunder. But with inaccurate Q1 figures and swine flu Clegg might find he has the subject to himself.
Richard T you might call it meaningless. I prefer to judge by results as to whether it is effective.
UKIP have less sticky voters as do all parties. Peeling a couple of percentage away from them is well worthwhile, and for a party in disarray as is UKIP the gravitational pull to a party which has an opportunity to do something will be heightened.
326 - Not that old meme, wishful thinking on your behalf does not make it so.
312 MD
I think that the Labour Party is stuck at the bottom of the curve now. They need to climb out, but the slope is steep and getting steeper as the GE approaches.
If they appreciate that the GE is lost then they can act (unless overtaken by fatalism) to get rid of Brown - a knopkerrie to the head and out of the nearest window - simples.
But Labour must decide to change direction if they want to mitigate the worst that the GE will do to them.
324 David Herdson - Yes, but there is a difference between the party wanting to be united, and actually achieving it. The latter requires the kind of leadership which Cameron has given.
It is true that Michael Howard and others started that process, but it was the first stage only (stop arguing amongst ourselves). David Cameron’s leadership took it to the next stage: This is the direction we’re going in, follow me.
329. you only have to read this thread to see that it is so.
The Petition has now reached 26,915, and 3rd place. 1st place by this afternoon I think.
315 W
Will Brown (in full knowledge that he is doomed) push forward the Lisbon document to poison Cameron’s well?
157. That was because he knew the postal vote was going to give him victory.
Lets face it, Camerons leadership will remain a failure until he achieves a poll rating as good as Blairs best poll rating, which was a Gallup/Telegraph on the 09/01/95, which recorded voting intention figures of Con 18.5% Lab 62% Lib Dem 14% Con Lead -43.5%
O/T - Interesting story regarding the veil and security issues.
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Show-us-your-faces-store.5214922.jp
Wonder how the SNP will respond now they have got into bed with the far right Muslim Brotherhood.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6157961.ece
319. Problem is Richard that the UKIP MEPs have done nothing except disgrace themselves as well.
And more seriously, the European Parliament is not and never will be a forum for changing anything vis-a-vis the UK’s relationship with the EU.
That will only happen via the election of a government at Westminster which is minded to renegotiate. EU opponents must recognise that the only route to success is via strengthening their positions within the mainstream parties.
The euro elections are, frankly, a sideshow. But UKIP are an annoyance at a Westminster level so the Tories are quite right to seek the opportunity to break them.
Hum, no Bellie….
England squad: Andrew Strauss (capt), James Anderson, Ravi Bopara, Tim Bresnan, Stuart Broad, Paul Collingwood, Alastair Cook, Graham Onions, Monty Panesar, Kevin Pietersen, Matt Prior, Graeme Swann.
Not sure whu Bresnan is, but Onion is interesting….
[Src.: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/8021570.stm
260 - I agree that Plaid politician should not be in great yarmouth, but IIRC there were no Welsh politicains on the panel when it was last in Cardiff!!
Leanne could be interesting she is a very outspoken republican
331. as ever the truth is somewhere in between. not pulling together behind leader no. 5 against Blair would have been suicide. and Cameron did win partly because he did not appear to be factional.
however Cameron has definitely looked decent as a leader, certainly much better than Major, Hague, IDS, or Howard, and should be given credit for that.
303:
I think that’s unfair. Is it reasonable, or even possible, to know exactly what a PM will be liike, before they have gained office?
Would commentators in 1979 have been able to know for sure what Thatcher would do, and be like? Or Heath? Or pretty much anyone for that matter?
Cameron has got himself into a position where enough people are likely to give him the benefit of the doubt, and give him a chance. That is surely all that can be expected at this stage.
336.
Nothing to do with polls overstating Labour?
I’d rather judge Cameron’s success on whether or not he wins the next general election - not a single opinion poll.
339. Bresnan has been a promising yet strangely disappointing all-rounder for several years now at yorkshire
343. I think GIN was joking
343. of course, polls can only “overstate” in hindsight, so it is a bit of a circular argument.
346 - Partly true, but I think it was fairly clear prior to 1997 that Labour were not going to get nearly two thirds of the vote.
“…a promising yet strangely disappointing all-rounder..”
True of many of us!
What on Earth does Edith Piaf remotely have to do with spectacles? It’s like redubbing a speech by Edward Teller to advertise McDonald’s.
I hated that Piaf commercial almost as much as the one which rewrote Bob Marley’s passionate and political ‘Give me hope’ in order to flog some stupid milkshake.
Mind you, has anyone else here seen Cadbury’s revamped Caramel Bunny? She makes Jessica Rabbit look like a nun!
353, not yet, but I intend to remedy this shortly
Notwithstanding the June 2009 results or any opinion poll -however bad - the key determining factor is, knowing his track record, whether Gordon will face an election where there is any likelihood that he could lose.
At present it seems that he is convinced that events will mean that he will either win or be the largest party.
If he becomes persuaded that he will lose in 2010, then what are the odds and the preferred months for his resignation or acceptance of an international job as his priority? Are there any odds up (by month) for this eventuality?
Personally I’d have banned that Iggy Pop commercial as well — not because it’s misleading, but because the sight of Iggy’s bare, sweating 60-year-old torso is nauseating and demeaning.
I know that everyone sells out eventually, but do they have to do it in so spectacularly shameless a manner?
Gurkha being interviewed outside Parliamentfor DP. Polite, ramrod straight, suit and tie, 15 years’ service, son in army. How can such people expect to sway the British government ?
351. i think in 5 years’ time it will be possible to say that about some of the polls this year. poll swings have been wild in both directions and i simply don’t believe that so many people change their mind about politics from one week to the next.
in fact i would go further and say that i don’t think polls are representative of the UK population. i think that only certain personality types ever respond, people with time on their hands and strong political views. i also think that the exact questions asked make more of a difference than the view of the respondant. i do think poll movements have a correlation with public opinion movements, and that is where their value lies.
however the absolute values and margins are complete and utter nonsense and always have been. you only have to look at the list of mysterious adjustments that are made between the raw data and the headline figures - basically massaging the figures until historical data appears to match with electoral history - to see that this is the case.
these methods cannot possibly work across a paradigm shift such as a change of governing party.
Andrew Neil giving Kim Howells a rough time on DP…
Andrew Neill: Not a single member of cabinet has faced an enemy bullet. Ouch.
357
Andrew Neil looks generally angry on DP. Me personally, when I was in the Army I was offered the opportunity to transfer to an allied force and of course I would have been given permanent residency after three years. Government are a disgrace.
356
“…spectacularly shameless a manner”
Iggy Pop?
358 You’re overstating it there, ed, since polls have proved reasonably good predictors in general. However, you’re absolutely right that the adjustments made to the raw data are likely to become increasingly inaccurate as the shifts in voting intention since the last election increase.
The question is: in which direction?
360. have any of the shadows done so? it is normally considered bad form for pheasants and partridge to return fire
Greed is good, Gordon Gekko to return…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8024187.stm
Oh sweet Jesus, the return of the killer BBC graphics department…
359. The kind of snivelling cowards who inhabit the Labour cabinet cannot be expected to empathise with real fighting men like the Gurkhas - indeed it’s pretty clear that they loathe and fear them.
353. Completely agree but “Gimme hope, Jo’anna” was by Eddy Grant, not Bob Marley.
364
It’s not the shadow cabinet that are playing the “open door” race card against the Gurkhas.Kim Howells will “listen to the debate” before making up his mind - weasle.
Darling says that no item of expenditure that will not be questioned
http://www.politicshome.com/landing.aspx#7424
So why 2.5 billion on a new MOD, why 14.5k for Tessa Jowell’s office.
Its bullshine.
355. financier. International jobs require lots of lobbying. There are no “British” jobs in international organisations, there are some specifically “European” jobs just as there are specifically “US” jobs. So the head of the World Bank is always a Yank, the head of the IMF is always European. The WHO tends to be run by Asians. UN Sec-Gen is rotated round continents. The head of the OECD tends to be European, but was recently held by a Canadian.
To get an international job, Brown would have be pushed forward by the British government AFTER he ceases to be head of government. Other european countries would have to agree to support him (as a job for a European in a certain job means fewer opportunities to place another european in another job). Brown has no political capital to do this. He is loathed by the Germans and French. He is seen as an intellectual lightweight who was arrogant and unpleasant. The Yanks see him as useless.
Say, a miracle happened and a Labour government under Tony Blair or Jack Straw won a victory in a GE going forward. Would they spend any political capital on giving the vainglorious fat toad an international job? Of course not. Nor would Cameron. Brown is going to fester in dark places whinging about how he was right. He will make Heath look decent. I predict with 100% certainty that just a Heath spent all his time talking about Europe and how right he was, Brown will spend all his time trying to persuade people that he was a brilliant chancellor and extolling 1997-2007.
303.. I’m not clear what the press releases mean by ‘doses’ as in ’stockpiled 3 million doses’.
Is a dose 1 tablet (the usual meaning), or a course of treatment? They are very different.
This gives the recommended dosages. Note in a Community Outbreak, it recommends 2×5mg/day for 28 days. That’s 56 doses. Hmm.
http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_relenza.pdf
Ed Davey “Vince Cable will be Lib Dem Chancellor”
332
No I repeat it is meaningless. I am not a member of teh Tory party nor do I support them per se except in so far as they will get rid of Brown. Therefore I have absolutely no interest in gaining them ‘a few percent’ at the Euro elections if that results in getting more useless Tory MEPs like the majority of those we have had for the last 4 years.
If you are so glued to party loyalty that you grasp for every last vote irrespective of the value of the elected reprsentative then that is your affair. It certainly isn’t mine.
Kim Howells all but admits that the BNP are going to do well. Oh dear.
372 - The press release Ken linked to it states x number of “treatment courses”.
e.g 10.6 million treatment courses of zanamivir.
New thread up
363. i’m not convinced by that actually, they have been good predictors in boring elections where nothing much happened. but that isn’t saying much.
as for which direction, sorry to be so dull but i reckon the polls that heralded a new era of Brown domination will turn out to have overstated Lab, while those that led to discussion about 5 terms of Con hegemony with LD opposition may well turn out to have overstated Con.
i also think that they are very poor at picking up on tactical voting, and that tactical voting is absolutely central to our system of democracy. it may in fact be _the_ most important thing.
I think that Brown will hang on to the last possible moment for an election, and once he is defeated he may even try to hang on as leader. He’ll feel that he is misunderstood and will want to stay around to correct his picture in history. I can’t see that front bench will really turn on him with just a year to go and the truly awful state of the country - they’ll figure that the only chance most of them have of retaining their seats is to tough it out. However once they are in opposition I suspect they’ll rip him apart - possibly literally!
182. George W. Bush, Damian McBride, Mark Oaten, Iain Duncan Smith, Robert Kilroy-Silk, Robert Mugabe, Arthur Scargill, Fred Goodwin, Nicholas Winterton, that girl who rolls her eyes in the Susan Boyle video, Menzies Campbell, Wendy Alexander, Satan, Frank Dobson.
342
Garbage Runnymede.
You can be absolutely certain that had it not been for the support that UKIP were getting neither the Tories nor Labour would have gone anywhere near as far down the eurosceptic line as they have done. It is absolutely clear that UKIP are necessary as the eurosceptic conscience of the country because neither Labour nor the Tories can be relied upon to do the right thing in the best interests of the British people as far as the EU is concerned.
As for the ability or otherwise of UKIP MEPs, they have at least kept a eurosceptic presence in Brussels which is more than can be said for the Tories - again with two honourable exceptions.
PM looks unwell, also aged.
Afternoon all,
On topic everything about Brown’s expenses debacle is bizarre, the timing was absurd, the implementation was dictatorial, clumsy and subsequently ridiculous, the substance was an ill-considered, transparent and shallow con and making it personal was just political hubris and the follow-up remediation suicidal in political terms. If it was an attempt to grab the narrative back to the Government it was the most appalling piece of policy on the hoof yet conceived by Brown. Not only has Brown lost his moral compass but he has lost his political compass as well and now his reputation is ‘heading south’ at a rapid pace!
Now I doubt if on it’s own it will prove terminal for Brown but if he is defeated then he will be even further weakened and what is the major issue coming up? Post office privatisation. Going into that debate further weakened may lead his own backbenches to go native and defeat it and given its significance if so then Brown’s hold of the premiership will be increasingly tenuous.