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Huge swing to the Tories with MORI

January 19th, 2009

CONSERVATIVES 44% (+5)
LABOUR 30% (-5)
LIB DEMS 17% (+2)

More will follow later in the evening.

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537 comments to “Huge swing to the Tories with MORI”

First?
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 18:57
Hopefully labour will continue this downward trend to be replaced by the lib dems.
by Frank Booth January 19th, 2009 at 18:57
Labour are finished!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 18:58
Multiply
by anonymous and dangerous January 19th, 2009 at 18:59
2 I look forward to that day.
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 18:59
Repost from last thread!

This is for Coldstone - If you are in a hole stop digging unless Gordon Brown has ordered the trench to be filled with Petrol:

http://delivernothinglabourparty.blogspot.com/2009/01/number-10-downfall.html

by Martin Day January 19th, 2009 at 19:00
336/344 from last thread- Still waiting for ed’s explanation of what he meant in stating: “S&S it is pretty clear what your viewpoint is, no matter how disingenuously you try to spin around it. in the UK most of us find it somewhat distasteful.”

Apparently all ten of ed’s typing fingers and thumbs simultaneously developed cramps rendering them unusable only moments after his dark insinuation. Abominable luck, that. Poor, poor lamb…
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 19:00
bye bye Gordo
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 19:00
Seriously - what else can Labour do now?
by anonymous and dangerous January 19th, 2009 at 19:01
Certainly turning into a Black Monday for Gordon, coz I don’t think the bailout II will go down well.
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 19:01
Sky News doing a ‘Breaking News’ job on this poll.
by ChrisM January 19th, 2009 at 19:01
This is MORI and needs carful handling. Although it is in the same zone as YouGov.
by Witan January 19th, 2009 at 19:01
6. Martin any particular reason your eyes are bloodshot?

;o)
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 19:01
Do the knives come out for Gordon when the polls dip below 30% or is it too late now?
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 19:01
Great work by Gordon this morning I fear.
by jpt January 19th, 2009 at 19:02
Another nail in the flim flam that the UK is best placed to weather the recession…

“In annual terms in 2009, inflation [in Britain] according to our forecast is 0.1 per cent and next year 1.1 per cent,” said Mr Almunia this morning.

“The situation is more worrying in public finance because the UK had not consolidated public finances during the good times,” he added.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5546863.ece
by scrapheap January 19th, 2009 at 19:03
14. My own view is that it must be too late now. Straw should have got the job last Autumn. I’m not convinced Labour have bottomed out either.
by Frank Booth January 19th, 2009 at 19:03
15 That cannot have worked into the psyche yet. There is a lot more to come IMHO
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 19:04
NP - looks like a rogue electorate?
by scrapheap January 19th, 2009 at 19:04
19. LOL!
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 19:05
Too late. There’s a real sense of serious crisis engulfing the government and the country now, which even Obama can’t overshadow. Brown has royally screwed this country over and the Labour party will pay with its life.
by James A January 19th, 2009 at 19:05
11 It is notable that Boulton has been got out of the way and the reporting is changing, although the Scottish twit ( sorry, forgotten his name and the Sky Boulton blog is off the air) still repeats Labour spin lines such as ‘no time for a novice’ and ‘do nothing’ as if it is news.
by Witan January 19th, 2009 at 19:06
18 Knock off another 5% at least, for this morning and what will follow this week. I reckon it’s only just starting for Brown.
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 19:06
Any bets on when the ‘Gordon’s leadership under threat’ talk will start?
by Peter Mc January 19th, 2009 at 19:07
11. What, Sky News?! No way!
by topynate January 19th, 2009 at 19:07
From the last thread – James, at 399 you asked if Obama’s win has boosted Labour supporters more than others

Well, McCain was invited to the conservative party conference, which kind of suggests that the cons supported him.

I used to check out ConHome from time to time to during the campaign and certainly got the feeling that conservatives continued to offer their traditional support to the Republican Party. I remember one particularly effusive, one might say, sick-making diary piece from the republican convention by Liam Fox in praise of Sarah Palin – remember her?

I can’t find it on Google but I have come across another ludicrous pro Palin blurb by Bob Halfon, the twit (IMHO) who’s challenging Bill Rammell in Harlow.

Enjoy! http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2008/09/president-palin.html
by Ermintrude January 19th, 2009 at 19:07
19. Might the Dear leader consider replacing the current electorate with one more to his own liking. The more feasable option may be to try and give away as many powers to foreign bodies as he can, so at least the wrongheaded won’t hae to bear the consequences of their foolhardy decisions.
by Frank Booth January 19th, 2009 at 19:07
So Ken Clarke timed his arrival just right. I have always been impressed by KC even if I disagree with him about Europe. He is a formidable operator.
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 19:08
Wonder how big the gap would have been if it was taken today/tomorrow. With Clarke back and the bank bail out part II (plus RBS collapsing) surely it would be even bigger.

Has to be game over now for Brown now. He has tried the bribes, he has tried blaming everybody else, he has tried bringing back Mandelson, what else is left in his locker even to try and stop further loses with worsen economic conditions / job & home losses. And the Tories haven’t even really shown they have the answers we need from a government.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 19:08
RIP Labour!

It’ll be interesting to see where ICM is at - Been a while since we’ve had an ICM poll.
by GIN January 19th, 2009 at 19:08
It’s just a flesh wound.
by G January 19th, 2009 at 19:08
A politician who tries to fool the people all the time about important life and death issues and who is found out is never forgiven.
by Witan January 19th, 2009 at 19:08
19. What’s Broxtowe telling us?
by ChrisM January 19th, 2009 at 19:08
13. Looks like this latest poll may well mean the picture i created is closer in Brown’s mind politically than many would credit! The Red eyes mean twisted!
by Martin Day January 19th, 2009 at 19:09
31 Yes but in the heart.. ..- fatal
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 19:09
G a flesh wound to the throat three inches deep?
by Witan January 19th, 2009 at 19:10
33 Palmer? ‘Oh, it’s just a blip. Saw Brown in the tea rooms, laughing and joking with Darling. Both on fine form, relaxed and looking forward to Ken Clarke bringing down the Tories etc etc’
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 19:11
Labour MPs who would lose their seats on this poll. With notables in bold.

Who do people reckon will be potential rebels or briefers?

Alan Campbell - Tynemouth
Albert Owen - Ynys Mon
Alistair Darling - Edinburgh South West
Andrew Dismore - Hendon
Andrew Mackinlay - Thurrock
Andrew Miller - Ellesmere Port and Neston
Andrew Slaughter - Ealing Central and Acton
Andy Reed - Loughborough
Angela Smith - Basildon South and East Thurrock
Ann Cryer - Keighley
Ann Keen - Brentford and Isleworth
Anna Snelgrove - Swindon South
Anne McGuire - Stirling
Barbara Follett - Stevenage
Ben Bradshaw - Exeter
Ben Chapman - Wirral South
Betty Williams - Aberconwy
Bill Olner - Nuneaton
Bill Rammell - Harlow
Bob Blizzard - Waveney
Brian Jenkins - Tamworth
Celia Barlow - Hove
Charles Clarke - Norwich South
Chris Mole - Ipswich
Chris Ruane - Vale of Clwyd
Christine McCafferty - Calder Valley
Christine Russell - Chester, City of
Claire Curtis-Thomas - Sefton Central
Claire Ward - Watford
Clive Efford - Eltham
Colin Burgon - Elmet and Rothwell
Dan Norris - Somerset North East
Dari Taylor - Stockton South
David Borrow - Ribble South
David Chaytor - Bury North
David Crausby - Bolton North East
David Drew - Stroud
David Kidney - Stafford
David Lepper - Brighton Pavilion
David Taylor - Leicestershire North West
David Wright - Telford
Desmond Turner - Brighton Kemptown
Doug Naysmith - Bristol North West
Eric Martlew - Carlisle
Fabian Hamilton - Leeds North East
Gareth Thomas - Harrow West
Geraldine Smith - Morecambe and Lunesdale
Gillian Merron - Lincoln
Gisela Stuart - Birmingham Edgbaston
Gordon Banks - Ochil and South Perthshire
Gordon Prentice - Pendle
Greg Pope - Hyndburn
Gwyn Prosser - Dover
Helen Southworth - Warrington South
Howard Stoate - Dartford
Ian Austin - Dudley North
Ian Cawsey - Brigg and Goole
Ian Gibson - Norwich North
Ian Pearson - Dudley South
Jacqui Smith - Redditch
James Plaskitt - Warwick and Leamington
Jamie Reed - Copeland
Janet Anderson - Rossendale and Darwen
Janet Dean - Burton
Jim Cunningham - Coventry South
Jim Fitzpatrick - Poplar and Limehouse
Jim Knight - Dorset South
Jim Murphy - Renfrewshire East
Joan Humble - Blackpool North and Cleveleys
John Hutton - Barrow and Furness
John Mann - Bassetlaw
John Smith - Vale of Glamorgan
Jonathan Shaw - Chatham and Aylesford
Judy Mallaber - Amber Valley
Julie Morgan - Cardiff North
Kali Mountford - Colne Valley
Karen Buck - Westminster North
Kelvin Hopkins - Luton North
Laura Moffatt - Crawley
Linda Gilroy - Plymouth Sutton and Devonport
Linda Riordan - Halifax
Lindsay Hoyle - Chorley
Lynda Waltho - Stourbridge
Madeleine Moon - Bridgend
Margaret Moran - Luton South
Mark Lazarowicz - Edinburgh North and Leith
Mark Todd - Derbyshire South
Marsha Singh - Bradford West
Martin Caton - Gower
Martin Linton - Battersea
Martin Salter - Reading West
Mary Creagh - Wakefield
Michael Foster - Hastings and Rye
Michael Foster - Worcester
Michael Wills - Swindon North
Mike Hall - Weaver Vale
Mike O’Brien - Warwickshire North
Mike Wood - Batley and Spen
Nick Ainger - Carmarthen West and Pembrokeshire South
Nick Palmer - Broxtowe
Nigel Griffiths - Edinburgh South
Parmjit Dhanda - Gloucester
Patrick Hall - Bedford
Paul Flynn - Newport West
Paul Truswell - Pudsey
Phil Hope - Corby
Phyllis Starkey - Milton Keynes South
Robert Marris - Wolverhampton South West
Roger Berry - Kingswood
Rosie Cooper - Lancashire West
Russell Brown - Dumfries and Galloway
Ruth Kelly - Bolton West
Sadiq Khan - Tooting
Sally Keeble - Northampton North
Sarah McCarthy-Fry - Portsmouth North
Shahid Malik - Dewsbury
Shona McIsaac - Cleethorpes
Stephen Pound - Ealing North
Sylvia Heal - Halesowen and Rowley Regis
Tom Levitt - High Peak
Tony McNulty - Harrow East
Tony Wright - Great Yarmouth
Vernon Coaker - Gedling
by Jim M January 19th, 2009 at 19:11
32. I always though Darling was right to try and be honest with people about the crisis.

Brown won’t be forgiven.
by Frank Booth January 19th, 2009 at 19:11
Talking of Sky News, at 6pm they did a right hatchet job on Brown/Darling. For 10 solid minutes there was nothing but government bashing, everything was pretty much portrayed as their fault and even used a very effective squeaky (Osborne) soundbite saying that enough is enough of blaming everybody else, you (the government has failed) and the buck stop with you.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 19:11
37. Doubtless there will be some corroborating canvass data as well.
by ChrisM January 19th, 2009 at 19:12
Empiredirect.co.uk has gone bust…
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 19:12
If they cannot change Brown as leader - now is the time for Labour MP’s who put country before party to think about sitting elsewhere in the commons.
by Martin Day January 19th, 2009 at 19:12
Adios el gordo.
by Seant January 19th, 2009 at 19:12
Brown looks anything but relaxed. Darling looked worse last week than this, worse this morning than in the Commons this afternoon. The stress must be intolerable for a team which has no idea of what to do, stumbling along, grabbing passing options, grabbing meaningless sound bites.
by Witan January 19th, 2009 at 19:13
I must say, I have noticed the ‘Blairite’ wing of the Labour party making small but definite anti-Brown noises in the last couple of days. Mandelson condemning politics of envy, praise for Ken Clarke by many interviewees, attacks on the using the ‘do-nothing’ line… Could be the green shoots of a coup?
by wibbler January 19th, 2009 at 19:13
32- Thank you for bringing up the topic that upset so many on the last thread, Witan. The hysterical nature of their reaction spoke volumes and highlights not only the weakness and hypocrisy of their position but also that they to some extent recognize that fact.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 19:14
42. A significant local employer here in West Yorkshire. I’m surprised to see it go to be honest.
by ChrisM January 19th, 2009 at 19:14
38 Darling, Follett, Bradshaw, Kelly, McNulty and Pound to go. Lovely bunch of people. Nigel Griffiths as well - isn’t he one of Gordons special friends?
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 19:15
Symbolism today on this, the day considered the most depressing of the year.

A bank (the one I’m with ) heading downwards ever quicker.

A government that had had to put out a second bailout with little fanfare. Unlike the first one where it puffed out its chest and claimed it was saving the world in these difficult times.

An opposition that felt confident enough to bring back a massive figure (in both senses of the word) and do a reshuffle that seems to have gone down well enough, and is given encouragement by this poll.

Tomorrow is Barack Obama’s inauguration, and the mantra of change will look even more stark…
by anonymous and dangerous January 19th, 2009 at 19:16
YES!

Con gain everything!!

Labour = TEE HEE HEE
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 19:17
How bad does it have to get for Labour MP’s to continue to hold the line and keep their gold plated pensions?
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 19:17
67% fall in one of the main 4 clearing banks shares today . in one day. 35% in another. does this look like a well placed economy?
by James A January 19th, 2009 at 19:18
It seems a long time since the Mail and the Telegraph were hailing Brown as the best peacetime PM since Walpole because he was photographed in his wellies while Cameron was on holiday.
by fr January 19th, 2009 at 19:18
42 That’s a great shame. They were a good online retailer.
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 19:18
46 - The problem is that if they defenestrate El Gordo then I suspect that the electorate will punish them. It is hardly the optimum time to do it when the wheels are flying off the economy!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 19:18
51 but Watford still in the proverbial………
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 19:18
51. Do you like Balls digging the trench for Brown?
by Martin Day January 19th, 2009 at 19:19
57 Watford put off by all the LDs in the area!!!

by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 19:19
I noted Macguire trying out a new line of attack for Labour on the Beeb, he went on about by Cameron bringing back Clarke all of a sudden his claim of CHANGE is down the tubes. I bet he hasn’t said the same about Obama installing lots of ex-Clinton people in his team!
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 19:21
Whoa there, its only a poll.

Good to see another one with Tories low/mid 40’s, Labour back in the box and Mori is good at picking up trends which seems to be lot of good news for Tories and a bit of good news for the LDs.

Shame though that so many of us were correct in saying that we should wait till mid January to see what was happening because the economic woes would show up and demonstrate the fallacy of Brown’s claims to be leading the UK through to recovery. Horrible day today for the UK and a lot of people fighting to keep their businesses going or hoping to keep their jobs.

Still the presenters on BBC and Sky can keep giggling, simpering and lauding the soon to be President Obama while our futures are mortgaged to bail out the banks.

Probably does indicate we’ll be back to 20 point leads by the EU elections but I think that would mean we might even find Gordon loses his job in the summer.
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 19:22
@56 (James Burdett)

No, I don’t think there will be a coup. Labour simply can’t afford it. However, they can write Miliband-esque articles, formulate alternative policy papers, and generally rebel more before the election, knowing that this will only increase their standing after it, should they survive. Rebelling will also increase the chance of any individual MP retaining their seat at all.
by wibbler January 19th, 2009 at 19:23
If Cameron was taking a gamble before today with KC, this latest poll should starve some of the publicity ‘oxygen’ from old dinosaurs like Tebbitt having a go at him.

Today could (just could) be the defining day for the next election outcome.
by scrapheap January 19th, 2009 at 19:23
27, he has spent the last ten years importing such a like thinking electorate, but then Blair went and pissed them all off by bombing their religious brethren in Iraq. They wont vote tory though, and thats whats important.
by Gaz January 19th, 2009 at 19:23
Hysterical Tory boys again.
You’ve got four or five months good polls coming so don’t wet yourselves too early.
summer/autumn is the key time and if Labours ratings aren’t improving by then ,then perhaps you can seriously see the victory post.
But remember, the flip side of the hysteria is the “Oh my god we’re down to 5% lead”
And William Hague just got made Deputy PM while keeping his outside jobs on the back of panic over that.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 19:24
I must admit I thought we might have to wait a month or two before Lavour sipped back below 30%, but given where they are on this poll and that this poll doesn’t take account of todays shennanigans we might see Labour under 30% before the end of January!
by GIN January 19th, 2009 at 19:24
62 - I think that if the Labour Party flies apart at the seams before the next election then Labour will be crushed at that election.
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 19:25
Still unemployment to come later this week (+100k?), and Q4 GDP (-2%?) as well ho ho ho

Bye bye Labour. Back to 25% soon, Tories nearly 50%.

But is it now time to buy Tory seats on the spreads?
by runnymede January 19th, 2009 at 19:25
26 Sarah Palin was picked to early, and thrown into the national limelight without the knowledge and the necessary background.

When you watched some of her performances, on territory she was comfortable with she was good/very good. She ad libbed, she was confident, and totally at ease.

I think it is a mistake to rule her out for future success.
I have my bumper sticker for Palin 2012..
by Gaz January 19th, 2009 at 19:26
63 - to be fair, the likes of Tebbit are mostly irrelevant now anyway. Only people who pay attention to them are the sort of people who write to newspapers demanding the UK withdraws from the EU immediately
by anonymous and dangerous January 19th, 2009 at 19:26
42 That’s a shame I was one of their early customers (couldn’t order online, had to ring but the guys were really helpful, full of advice) and I’ve since bought 5 TVs and 6 DVD players/recorders from them plus other household electricals.

Damn I hate recessions - lots of good people go out of business.
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 19:28
“When you watched some of her performances, on territory she was comfortable with she was good/very good. She ad libbed, she was confident, and totally at ease.”

On Moose hunting she was good.
On politics she had the knowledge of a twelve year old.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 19:28
65. Just how good will it get then Tim in the next few months - predictions welcomed just to set us some benchmarks before anyone goes too overboard?
by scrapheap January 19th, 2009 at 19:28
re 68 it’s inflation tomorrow first.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 19:29
73 - 45% Tory 28% Labour would be a rough guess at the nadir.
Camerons realisation that he had to cull some fops will also help.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 19:30
Am I the only one who actually likes Darling? He seems to have honour and integrity, comes across as someone doing his best, but is constantly hampered by his interfering neighbour.
by Gaz January 19th, 2009 at 19:30
So, that’s 9, 13 and 14 point leads is it, with recent polls?

They can shift quickly, as we’ve seen, but that trend will not be pleasing to Labour. Let’s hope it continues.
by Morris Dancer January 19th, 2009 at 19:30
38 I have a little list, they never will be missed.

My object all sublime
I shall achieve in time–
To let the punishment fit the crime–
The punishment fit the crime;
And make each prisoner pent
Unwillingly represent
A source of innocent merriment!

I have a little list, I am sure they won’t be missed.
by Witan January 19th, 2009 at 19:31
All these polls have been bad news for Labour. I thought they’d turn against Brown but such a large swing so soon is a bit surprising, even if I can understand why it has happened.
by Raj January 19th, 2009 at 19:31
76, not sure if like’s the right word. I have sympathy for him. He definitely seems far more decent than any other senior Labour politician.
by Morris Dancer January 19th, 2009 at 19:31
Jim @ 38. Surely Derek Wyatt should be on your list. His majority is a massive 79!
by Alpha Romeo Mike January 19th, 2009 at 19:31
Where are Coldstone and Roger when you need them?

My journey home tonight was quicker as Jaguar has closed down for another two weeks (thats 5 now).

“No more boom and bust”

by Albion Til I Die January 19th, 2009 at 19:32
77. A Labour MP responds

POLITICAL Betting has details of a new Ipsos/Mori poll giving the Tories a 14-point lead over Labour – up ten points since the previous survey.

The numbers are:

* Conservatives 44 (+5)
* Labour 30 (-5)
* LibDems 17 (+2)

Bugger.

http://tomcharris.wordpress.com/2009/01/19/pollwatch-huge-swing-to-tories/
by Scott P January 19th, 2009 at 19:32
Are Labour privatising the Health Service by stealth?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4291161/One-in-four-new-polyclinics-to-be-privately-run.html
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 19:32
77 - I don’t think they will shift back to Labour again now in any significant way.
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 19:32
68 Some of you Conservatives are really glorying in the misfortunes of this country’s ecomomy aren’t you ?
I happened to watch Boris on Andrew Marr yesterday morning and was actually very impressed with much of what he said particularly his scathing comments on doomsters like yourself who continually sell this country and it’s people short .
by Mark Senior January 19th, 2009 at 19:34
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/19/economy-banking
‘Privately, something close to desperation is starting to develop inside government. After watching the slide in bank shares on Friday, one cabinet minister did not altogether joke when he said: “The banks are facked, we’re facked, the country’s facked.”‘

Anyone know which cabinet minister this was.
by chrishio January 19th, 2009 at 19:34
85, I hope they don’t, but then I didn’t forecast the gap narrowing so much towards the end of last year.
by Morris Dancer January 19th, 2009 at 19:34
re 76 not at all. Darling always seems to me to be well meaning and truthful. Having Brown as a back street driver must be hell and I wouldn’t be surprised if Darling’s health goes first.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 19:34
Darling is the fall-guy and I am sure will be ditched in the run up to any election as they would try and let him carry the can for the recession (try being the word) in terms of Labour association with it.

Someone ‘new’ and ‘fresh faced’ would be brought in to look to a better future?

Mind you on that plan, they could do the same thing but with the 1st Lord of the Treasury too…
by scrapheap January 19th, 2009 at 19:35
86. Yellow Taxi time for the LD’s at the next election Mark!
by Martin Day January 19th, 2009 at 19:35
re 84 jsfl where’ve you been these last 11 years?
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 19:36
Well, it’s not about Ken Clarke, though if this poll had been a couple of days later, he is the messiah we’d all be pointing to.
by John L January 19th, 2009 at 19:36
87 - That is reminiscant of Richard Mottram!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 19:36
Patterson is set to pick Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg as the next senator from New York:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01192009/news/columnists/caroline_the_certain_pick_for_dave__riva_150822.htm

Congratulations Philippe!
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 19:36
91 No job time for you Martin after many elections to come .
by Mark Senior January 19th, 2009 at 19:36
Tim I didn’t know Hague was Deputy PM, has there been an election without me noticing? Or are you just recognising reality?
by Witan January 19th, 2009 at 19:36
I see absolutely no reason why labour can’t collapse to the 25percentish levels we saw last summer. What’s holding them up? Brand loyalty?
by Seant January 19th, 2009 at 19:37
I’m not sure about using the word honour to describe Darling. If he turned round now and told Gordo to sod off, he isn’t taking the flack anymore and that he thinks the policies like the VAT reduction were just wrong, then yes.

However, I do have some sympathy for him, of the current crop of Labour ministers he is one of the more steady ration sounding ones, but at the same time he must have known taking the chancellor job he was going to have to be Brown’s Mr Sooty.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 19:37
81. Sittingbourne & Sheppey is already notionally Tory according to R&T (majority 22 votes)
by RodCrosby January 19th, 2009 at 19:38
98, the party then was very disunited. A Minister of State resigned and called for Brown to go, echoed by a dozen backbenchers.

No such open rebellion now.
by Morris Dancer January 19th, 2009 at 19:38
86. These damned tory fops talking the economy and great british nation down once again. Why can’t everyone just pitch in and agree that GB saved the world and did fix the roof when the sun was shining.
by scrapheap January 19th, 2009 at 19:39
86. No. We’re glorying in the destruction of Brown.
by b. January 19th, 2009 at 19:39
86

Being honest is not glorifying. It is being realistic. Personally I would rather have a Labour government that DIDN’T screw the country so completely. But that seems to be an oxymoron.

People like you who bury their heads in the sand about how bad things are and then (to mix metaphores) try and shoot the messenger are in for a very nasty shock when it turns out that the doomsayesr are actually being overly optimistic.
by Richard Tyndall January 19th, 2009 at 19:39
70 The only thing is though that he and the non-elected tycoons threatening to withdraw their financial support are always given disproportionate coverage by the anti-Tory media.
by sbjme19 January 19th, 2009 at 19:40
97 - Sorry Deputy leader, a narrowing in the polls, Cameron caved and William kept his jobs.
Deputy Leader is the only one he does for free!

Congratulations to Chris Grayling by the way on being the only important front bencher to have no outside jobs, and no million pound houses given to him by mummy and daddy.

Future leader?
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 19:41
92. Chris A to be honest I don’t pay much attention to Health policy.
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 19:41
90 - Who is going to come in for Darling? Nobody with any brains is going to want that job, it must be like hell going to work everyday, economy screwed and a nut job for a boss. In addition, Labour aren’t exactly brimming with talent are they, I would struggle to name somebody else who could step in, not be labelled as another Brown lacky, be popular with the public and most importantly any good at the job. Finally if they try somebody completely out of left field, well the call of no time for a novice is just waiting to be slung back at Labour.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 19:41
35. 36. You guys don’t do subtlety do you?
by G January 19th, 2009 at 19:41
“The banks are facked, we’re facked, the country’s facked.”

must have been Father Jack…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/03/uk_politics_iraq_report_reaction/img/1.jpg
by RodCrosby January 19th, 2009 at 19:42
38 - Interesting breakdown of seats, when Draper and co set up their new website, I assume that is not the sort of ‘Labourlist’ they were hoping for.

As for Clark, great timing, just as the sting has gone out of all the Labour bounce on the issue of the economy, the man who proably knows more about economics than any other politician in Britain returns to the Tory front bench. He is also one Tory politican popular with many of those still saying they won’t vote Tory, even after these boosts in their favour, creating room for bigger leads if things get any worse.

A key factor may now be that the crisis the Tories faced that lead to their pasting in the 1990’s on the economy now counters Brown’s only credible blow on Cameron. Cameron was in the teeth of the storm on Black Wednesday as advisor to Lamont, and saw first hand how a huge economic crisis can come about, and experience of the aftermath to put it right. Clark was in the forefront of the economic recovery post Black Wednesday and creating a legacy Gordon Brown lived off for years before destroying it. Huge direct experience of an economic crisis and how to put it right in the aftermath, with all that experience, maybe the public will think that now is not the time for a novice like Gordon Brown.
by Kevin Alcock January 19th, 2009 at 19:43
Mark senior is a nasty little rectal polyp. Someone fetch the proctologist.
by Seant January 19th, 2009 at 19:43
104 The post I criticised said unemployment figures up and GDP figures down to come ohohoh - that is glorifying and I contrasted it with Boris’s attitude on Marr yesterday .
by Mark Senior January 19th, 2009 at 19:43
112 Hi sean , your via**/ not working with your young Thai girls tonight ?
by Mark Senior January 19th, 2009 at 19:46
re 107 well Labour are doing to the NHS what the Tories would love to have done, but couldn’t dare. The new Labour policies will lead to inevitable hospital closures.

As for privatisation. I went to examine at a neighbouring hospital last week. I was there for 8 hours. The car parking charges were £11.20. It might not surprise you that this Trust rakes in well over £1m in car park tax each year and is in the top 5 in the country. When I went to the cabin to get some change and proffered a £20 note, the man looked at me pityingly and said I can do you for £5.60 as you’re NHS staff. I’ve now claimed this back so effectively you’re all paying for that parking charge.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 19:47
I can’t believe Empiredirect has gone bust; the sort of company that should have been able to batten down the hatches and weather the storm.

I can’t bring myself to gloat over this poll, much as I would like to. Mrs Bongo is due to give birth any day now and my new baby is going to reap the whirlwind sowed by the most incompetent and shallow government in my lifetime. Other governments have been bad, but I would never say that Callaghan, Wilson, Atlee et all were mendacious, lying, corrupt, authoritarians led by a demented half wit. Even Heath was a better leader and that really is saying something.

KC said this is the worst economic situation he can ever remember - and I don’t think most people have still to really understand that. After today a few more of them might.

If I were a traditional Labour voter I would be ashamed of what my party has done - royally shafted the working class again, just like socialists always do. I just wish the one patently decent member of the cabinet Mr Badger would just resign and say what he really thinks of what Gordon and his apologists have done to the public finances.
by kingbongo January 19th, 2009 at 19:47
114 Difficult since he is in Africa….
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 19:48
re 114 Does Seant = Sean T ?
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 19:49
113

No it isn’t, its realism. Brown has destroyed the economy of this country and all that is happening now is we are seeing the figures released that confirm that. Like I said, you are only interested in shooting the messenger. You have nothing useful to contribute to the debate.
by Richard Tyndall January 19th, 2009 at 19:49
114. Have you paid up on your incredibly stupid bet that there wouldn’t be a recession, yet?
by runnymede January 19th, 2009 at 19:50
Ding Dong! The witch is dead!
by Flashback January 19th, 2009 at 19:50
That’s quite a swing.

Now I know why today is called Blue Monday.

by Robin Wiggs January 19th, 2009 at 19:51
Obama bin Soros is Blair 2, an empty suit who got elected because he was black. He’ll get zero scrutiny from a pathetic fawning media, just like Blair (until Iraq), and that lack of scrutiny will probably lead to an even bigger disaster for the US in the next eight years than it’s done for us.

Palin was a tad unprepared. Apart from that she’s ace. Palin 2012

~~~

I think ZNL will have to get rid of McBean. He is going to be too personally unpopular for them to survive otherwise. Any punishment for a third leader will be dwarfed by how personally unpopular he is about to become.

As long as they have the BBC they can still win if they ditch McBean and go all out to nobble Cameron.

in my not very humble opinion
by MrJones January 19th, 2009 at 19:51
115 - Whats wrong with charging for parking?

The money goes into the health system, and Scotland/Wales will cutback health spending to allow drivers to park for free.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 19:51
122 -
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 19:51
The British Govt should just accept reality and stop the short termist publicity seeking solutions. They have to just accept that the recession is going to be really bad, forget about trying to avert it, and think to the future. That means taking all necessary steps to get the public finances back in order - it means tax rises and spending cuts (I’ll scream the next time some minister announces some new several hundred million £ commitment for international development).
by alex January 19th, 2009 at 19:52
115. I know about the car parking it’s ridiculous.
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 19:52
124

Tim

You show that you dont understand people in that extraordinarily stupid post. Why should people pay to visit their sick relatives?
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 19:53
96. Not if Labour got in again. Is that official LD policy to poke fun at the unemployed?
by Martin Day January 19th, 2009 at 19:54
124 - There you are wrong tim

The money goes to pay the companies who run the parking - it is not a revenue stream for the Trusts.

The best that can be said is that they no longer have to pay for upkeep of the car parks.

However there have been no studies that I am aware of that examine whether lack of family/visitor support due to people not being able to afford to visit as much is affecting recovery rates. I suspect it is something that ought to be examined
by Simon January 19th, 2009 at 19:54
126. Agreed. How about

- a five-year moritorium on overseas aid
- 20% cut in the civil service
- 10% supertax on everyone who voted Labour from 1997-2005?
by runnymede January 19th, 2009 at 19:55
128 - They don’t.
They pay if they park a car at the hospital.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 19:55
Oh wow.

More from me later - in the pub playing darts…
by LS January 19th, 2009 at 19:55
Did anyone hear Brown threatening Tom Bradby on the news. Honestly he is unbelievable the worst Prime Minister this country has ever seen, not only is he an expensive joke but a bully as well.
by voreas January 19th, 2009 at 19:58
132

Well since dear old Labour has ensured that many people don’t now have a local hospital that means that if they need to maek a visit either for medical purposes or to visit a sick relative then yes they do have to pay.

Unless you are suggesting that the sick magically develop powers of teleportation to get them to their appointments?

Making people pay to receive treatment. So much for the NHS being safe under Labour.
by Richard Tyndall January 19th, 2009 at 19:59
104 Richard, that wasn’t a mixed metaphor. It was just two whole metaphors in one sentence. “Burying your head in the messenger” or “Shooting the sand” would be (very confusing) mixed metaphors. Ask John Loony, he seems quite an expert at them!
by Jonny Jimmy January 19th, 2009 at 19:59
134 - What did he say?
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 19:59
134: ‘Did anyone hear Brown threatening Tom Bradby on the news.’

No. Did Brown say he was going to beat him up?
by Robusticus January 19th, 2009 at 19:59
124. Ask yourself if you would like to transfer 5x that amount in the course of a week, for three or four weeks visiting a sick parent. Parking fees at hospital are regressive in their effect.
by dr spyn January 19th, 2009 at 20:00
Really good to see Eric Pickles bought into a more public role, he is liked by the grassroots of the party and is a future Home Secretary in my opinion:).
by Ed January 19th, 2009 at 20:01
21 - James said “Brown has royally screwed this country over and the Labour party will pay with its life.”

And deservedly so
by Floater January 19th, 2009 at 20:01
132

You again show the stupidity of your comment. Walk several miles? rely on public tansport at night? pay for a taxi (prohibitively expensive). No wonder Labour are on for a thrashing at the polls if you come out with such utter tosh.
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:02
re 124 well tim if you’re unlucky enough to know anyone with cancer who needs daily outpatient treatment which can perhaps take a few hours, then you ask them “what’s wrong with car parking charges?” So much for your government’s lie that the NHS is free at the point of need.

And as I’ve said, I’ve claimed back my parking fee so you’ve paid for it. Thanks for that.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 20:03
141, not so sure. For Labour to fall into the half position of our two and a half party system it requires both for Labour to be rubbish AND for the Lib Dems to take them over. The former happened mid-2008 and could occur again. Not confident of the latter ever happening.
by Morris Dancer January 19th, 2009 at 20:03
124: wow Tim you make Stewart Jackson seem pleasant and affable.
by Jon C January 19th, 2009 at 20:03
Now the EU says Gordon should have fixed the roof when the sun was shining:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/4291144/National-debt-will-be-three-quarters-of-countrys-wealth.html
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 20:04
136

Thanks for that

I suppose if you are a really bad shot you could always bury the messenger in the sand and then shoot him.
by Richard Tyndall January 19th, 2009 at 20:04
My wife has had cancer and suffers from lupus. The cost of visiting her at my nearest general hospital 17 miles away that provided services was horrendous…
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:05
143 - I’m not against a cap on it, but City Centre Hsopital car parks being free are a nightmare to monitor and end up full of freeloaders.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 20:07
Seant is seanT. Mark senior is a festering blowfly. Brown is tostada.
by Seant January 19th, 2009 at 20:10
Evening all

A remarkable day and a pretty dispiriting one for the Government ending off with Mori joining ComRes and YouGov in Conservative landslide territory.

I’ve been a long-time sceptic regarding banking bailouts yet it will probably be the next Government that will have to deal with the real consequences of today’s measures should they fail.

For the LDs, while Mori offers some encouragement, the earlier London poll was pretty poor. It is of course far more important for the Tories to pick up Labour seats than LD seats (though you wouldn’t know it from some of the contributions on here) but I don’t doubt seats in Sutton, Kingston and Richmond will come under sustained Conservative pressure.

I do think some LD seats will be lost but I think Vince Cable and Ed Davey are more likely to survive than for example Tom Brake and Paul Burstow though the latter are well-known local figures and do have a strong personal vote. All these SW London seats look like titanic struggles in 2010.
by stodge January 19th, 2009 at 20:10
Interested in the Tom Bradby thing, any link or a brief outline would be nice.
by Don January 19th, 2009 at 20:10
Another charming pro-Hamas rally, this time in Australia:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Th3M0shP1t/Melbournistan?authkey=ZgYs9ODynX8#5292559215499182770

These people really need to hire a PR firm to give them some thematic advice.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 20:11
42. Bad news.
by Yokel January 19th, 2009 at 20:11
149

A sudden change of heart Tim when you realise you are wrong. It would be a simple matter to issue 2 hr day passes to genuine visitors to relatives day and night visiting… They would just have to prove who they were visiting. as it is, car park control is nothing but revenue generatiion and nothing more.
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:12
69. Good to see that there are still some Palin supporters around.

Refreshed after a bite of supper I’ve found Liam Fox’s priceless communication from the Republican National Convention

“…It was impossible to be present and not to feel that something significant was happening in the world of American politics. Whether it was discussing her family and background or the details of energy security policy [!!] she held the capacity crowd transfixed and above all, she seemed completely authentic…

…The Conservative party is well represented and has been very warmly welcomed here, with considerable interest in the fate of the Brown government and potential restoration of the Conservatives to office. David Liddington, Mark Francois, Eleanor Laing, Tobias Ellwood and Brooks Newmark have attended a non-stop round of speeches, meetings and receptions where we have had tremendous access to the highest levels of the Republican party, elected and unelected.”

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2008/09/thoughts-on-the.html
by Ermintrude January 19th, 2009 at 20:14
evening all. I watched Brown Central’s 2 leading players delivering their latest rescue plan this morning live on SKY News. Interesting that when some journos didnt follow his script of Flash Gordon- Saviour of the Universe, he came within a whisker of losing his temper and instead kept telling them they didnt understand economics or what he was doing!! His problem is they understand only too well.

He really didnt like it when after him trashing the Royal Bank of Scotland for 5 minutes one journo, I think Ben Brogan asked if he no longer supported Sir Fred Goodwin who was one of his buddies and whose knighthood he had promoted! Not surprisingly he chose to ignore that question.

I am really looking forward to Ken Clarke reminding Brown that he, Brown inherited a growing economy from Clarke and that the first 20 quarters of growth Brown has always boasted about were Ken Clarke’s 5 years from 1992-7. The New Labour lies and damned lies are going to do for Brown Central an it will be lovely to see trash like Dolly Draper spin themselves out of control.
by Easterross January 19th, 2009 at 20:15
156

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:15
149

“I’m not against a cap on it, but City Centre Hsopital car parks being free are a nightmare to monitor and end up full of freeloaders.”

Garbage Tim. All it takes is the same sort of system used by hundreds of businesses and other institutions around the country whereby you have a ticket validated if your stay is legitimate. Everyone else does it, why is it so difficult for the largest employer in the Western world?
by Richard Tyndall January 19th, 2009 at 20:15
Labour List doesn’t seem to have covered the polls, a very brief mention with no figures by Benjamin Wegg-Prosser and that’s it.

They really don’t get political blogging do they?
by glw January 19th, 2009 at 20:15
156. If you’ve had to resort to Conservative Home’s US election coverage for your propaganda then it must really be bad in the bunker!
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 20:16
126. This is why Brown should have done the decent thing and called an election when it became obvious that this was going to be the worst world-wide recession in living memory.

Trying to deal with the problem with his one good eye on the next election, was always going to be a recipe for even greater disaster.

We have a government that cannot make the difficult and unpopular decisions that have to be made and an opposition that won’t reveal what THEY would do, in case Labour agree with them, take their policies and then take the political credit at the next election, if the policies work.

We need a governement with a full five year mandate to make the difficult decisions that have to be made.

I believe I said the very same thing the first week I posted on here.
by Penny4Them January 19th, 2009 at 20:16
If PfP’s around, could I thank him for not taking the sub-seven percent bet?

One banking bailout looks like decisive action; two looks like they didn’t really know what they were doing but are still doing it as they’ve got nothing better to do. God knows what a third will look like.

Very sad news about Empire Direct, especially round here. The W Yorks unemployment rate is going to go through the roof. This may have some fairly serious social and electoral repercussions.

Tend to agree with kingbongo re Darling. He looks like a man who’s doing his best but being constantly undercut by everything his boss says or does. He’s one of the few in the government who’s reputation has probably been enhanced a bit over the last year.

Re Clarke (didn’t have time to post earlier). Sure, he’s been brought in to shadow and outbox Mandelson and possibly others in the government - but also to shove Cable off the TV screens.
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 20:16
87 - i’m guessing either Brown or Darling…………
by Floater January 19th, 2009 at 20:17
157. Actually, the first few quarters of that period were Norman Lamont’s, though somewhat by default.
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 20:19
160 to be fair to the AWFUL labourlistingtoportandaboutto turnturtle, I emailed the poll details to Tim Montgomerie 20 mins ago and its not up on their site yet…
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:19
156- I think the jury is still out on whether Palin can and will emerge as a solid and well-rounded presidential-caliber candidate and she has a few years to refine her political persona and convince people. Still, I appreciate her if only for her ability to induce stress and possibly premature heart attacks in left-wingers. Also, I wouldn’t look to leftists for any useful analysis of Palin over the next few years, either, as their judgment is completely undermined by the hatred of her that has been so successfully cultivated on the left.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 20:19
156. What a staggeringly uninteresting post.
by runnymede January 19th, 2009 at 20:20
86 Mark Senior, that snipe at we Tories was not worthy of you and you should be ashamed. We Tories like many LibDems are anxious to get the truth out so people know what they really are facing and then we can start to address the problems and begin to work out how to fix them. As someone who again today had to advise yet another client on downsizing, I know how sick many employers are at having to reduce their staff, especially when decent people are losing their jobs.

IT really is just 1978 all over again but looking much worse.
by Easterross January 19th, 2009 at 20:26
153. Two can (and do) play at that game…

forget slogans and look at reality.
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/nazi-israel-indeed/
by RodCrosby January 19th, 2009 at 20:28
166. MTF I suspect Jonathan Isaby is on duty and Tim is off out and about. It takes Tim a while to check his e-mail. I e-mailed Tim over an hour ago

In any case I think glw was talking about the previous polls not tonight’s. Con Home usually gets the polls up the same night but it seems Labourlist are happy to ignore them pretty much completely.
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 20:29
167. I’m only half serious about Palin. 1/3 of voters will love her, 1/3 will hate her and then there’s how well she could fight through a hostile media to get a chunk of the remaining 1/3. If I was a Republican I might think it was too big a risk even if personally I thought she was ace.
by MrJones January 19th, 2009 at 20:30
153 & 170: One each - a draw! (Hint)
by Sekundra January 19th, 2009 at 20:31
171. Exactly, I looked to see if tonight’s poll was up, and was surprised that there’s nothing about the other polls as well. Maybe I just couldn’t find it. Most other political blogs cover polls good or bad, and treat them as important news.

So we have a new political blog that doesn’t cover one of the two objective measures of how politics is playing out. I look forward to their non-coverage of the 2010 general election.
by glw January 19th, 2009 at 20:32
171 TY for your response, In future I will e mail both of them !
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:33
171/5 They have just put it up on the site
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:34
Isn’t there a ConHome party tonight?

Sure Mike mentioned something about it
by Simon January 19th, 2009 at 20:35
166 following your earlier post did the survey, rather amused at the leading question on who not in shadow cabinet you would like to have seen returned to the Shadow Cabinet - now how many have left the Shadow Cabinet to be “returned”, couldn’t be Tim or Jonathan had a particular South London raised bruiser in mind when they set the question?
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 20:35
152. Here is the Guardian transcript of Bradby’s question

9.30am: Tom Bradby from ITN asks if Brown has written a blank cheque. Isn’t it true that Brown has no idea how much it will cost? Isn’t this a failure of bank regulation?

Brown sounds a bit more angry now (because his record is being questioned). He says the problems were caused by the sub-prime crisis in the US. “Our policy has succeeeded to the extent that we hve stopped the colapse of banks.”

“As far as the financing of this programme, I utterly dispute what you are saying.” He says that what he is doing is similar to what is happening in the US, and Obama has not been accused of writing a blank cheque.

Brown tells Bradby to be “very cautious” about what he’s saying because the government has the right to put a cap on its liabilties when it signs agreements with the banks.

Darling weighs in too. He says he will “look after the taxpayer interest”. But it was necessary to act. This is one of the most difficult positions that any government in the world has faced.

Carole Walker from the BBC says that if this isn’t a blank cheque, what is the taxpayer liability?

Brown says he wants to correct “a misunderstanding”. This is not about helping the banks. It is about helping families and businesses. The government is in the last resort the only organisation that can stand in when markets and the private sector fail.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2009/jan/19/gordonbrown-alistairdarling
by Scott P January 19th, 2009 at 20:35
156 - So Liam Fox pandered to Sarah Palin and Andrew Wakefield.
What a tit.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 20:36
171 Well Laboutlistingtoportandabouttournturtle would try to ignore them wouldn’t they….
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:36
177. Indeed so perhaps it’ll be a bit quiet on Conhome tonight.
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 20:36
173- I’ve never favored either side in this endless saga; I only posted that pic because of it’s shocking yet telling message about the radicalization of the debate.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 20:37
o/t. Britain’s longest-lived MP, Bert Hazell (Norfolk North (Lab) 1964-70) has died, aged nearly 102…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Hazell
by RodCrosby January 19th, 2009 at 20:37
Bleak Monday it turned out to be today. A raw wind, squally snowfall and banks in crisis.
I wonder how long before the country erupts into open and overt anger at the government - bailout after bailout which do not appear to be working with daily bad news on the economy - there has to be a limit to the public patience and a point at which no subsequent recovery (distant though I fear that may be anyway) can undo the anger welling up.
Will Woolies really be the moment, or will it be, as I suspect myself, at some point over the next ‘period of time’ where Brown is being grilled he just stands there without an answer, jaw flopping about, the walls of reality crashing down around him.
Epitaph of this Labour government reads merely ‘These Incompetences’
by Dyed in some wool somewhere January 19th, 2009 at 20:37
163. Cant disagree with much of that. I see Darling as actually one of Labour’s better performers mainly because the guy isnt deluded. Sure he has to make his case but he knows reality. Today on R4 was teh first time I felt he was weakening in his public performances when asked the direct question on how much they thought this bailout would cost.

I’ve been banging on about this second round of funding for a couple of weeks or so now and I think the damage level could be very high.It really does depend on whether there is any economic impact, which I find unlikely. Lending businesses money may help their cashflow and keep them alive for a bit but realistically it doesnt fill an empty order book.

The banks simply cant, if they have any business sense in these chastening times, just start lending willy nilly even with government backing. I also think, however, that while the system has to stay upright and government intervention to do that is needed, there comes a point where some institutions have got to be allowed to float or sink of their own accord.

All far cry from late summer 2007 when I was accused of being a doom monger and jealous of Gordon Brown & Labour for having the gall to suggest that we were in for a tougher time.
by Yokel January 19th, 2009 at 20:38
171 Didn’t Mike say he was at a ConHome party tonight? They’re all on the p*ss.
by Phil C January 19th, 2009 at 20:39
172- Interestingly, that same statement could have been made, and was made, for years about Hillary Clinton. In the end, I’m sure she would have won had she been the Democratic nominee (and a poll was done that concluded she would have won even bigger than Obama did). Circumstances can change; fortunately for Palin, she has a few years before she has to decide whether to give it a shot.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 20:39
re 148 MTF sorry to hear that. Try telling the twit tim that welcome as it is for cancer patients to be relieved from NHS presciprition charges (incidentally is this yet another announcement which has yet to come to fruition?), that relief from car parking charges is a far bigger demand.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 20:40
179 many thanks
by Don January 19th, 2009 at 20:40
184 - Its a Rodwin.
The MP who previously held the record was Jewish.
Manny Shinwell deposed at last by Aryan farming stock.

Thats two Rodwins for me today.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 20:40
183: Fair enough - it’s more that we’ve had a fair bit of ever increasing argument on this topic over the last day or two and frankly I just thought ‘Oh no, here we go again’… FYI, I’ve sent the link to a couple of people myself!
by Sekundra January 19th, 2009 at 20:42
New labour rip , welcome back mr Clarke , please be sure to hold our pm to account for creating the ruin that is
Our economy !! And well done mr Cameron, now, go get David Davies to complete the balance in your shadow cabinet… From an old labour supporter who will vote blue for the first time ! We need change and labour need to be in opposition before they can mend ….
by Larry leopard January 19th, 2009 at 20:43
coldstone have you been blogging as anon on guido and been discovered you naughty boy?
by Don January 19th, 2009 at 20:46
188. “Interestingly, that same statement could have been made, and was made, for years about Hillary Clinton.”

Good analogy I think. Speaking as someone who ***really*** didn’t like Hillary, I was quite impressed by the end at what a little battler she was.
by MrJones January 19th, 2009 at 20:46
167. I don’t pass judgement on Palin though I think Fox’s description of her as an expert on energy security policy (as far as I remember her policy was “drill, baby, drill”)was a little wide of the mark.

As far as the British conservatives are concerned then Dave Cameron has some fences to mend with the White House.
by Ermintrude January 19th, 2009 at 20:46
These government ministers are really out to cause maximum offence aren’t they…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/4291728/Childrens-Minister-Home-education-may-be-cover-for-abuse.html
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 20:46
189 - nonsense Chris - I’d cap them.Free prescriptions free parking may be an idea.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 20:46
181. Well it’s up on Con Home now.
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 20:46
169 Easterross , that snipe at you Tories as you call it was in fact a contrast between Boris’s comments yesterday and those of the glorifying doomsters on here . I presume that you would tend to agree with Boris rather than the doomsters ?
by Mark Senior January 19th, 2009 at 20:47
195. As far as the British conservatives are concerned then Dave Cameron has some fences to mend with the White House.

Since when did you speak for British Conservatives (shish!) Who elected you?
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 20:48
196 Shameful. They really are a disgrace. In the good old days, they’d be hauled out of office at the wrong end of a pitchfork and strung up somewhere. Where did it all go wrong?
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 20:48
195 I dont think the UK figures highly on the agenda right now. America has its own problems to deal with. In any event Obama will deal with who is in office, which party it is is an irrelevance right now.
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:49
197 Twisting with the wind eh Tim….
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 20:50
201 - Quite!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 20:54
PA claiming that “The Home Office was not notified in advance that Tory MP Damian Green was to be arrested over leaks from the department, sources have said.”

Something slipping under the radar?
by dr spyn January 19th, 2009 at 20:54
This poll, together with the 2 previous others over the last few days, afirm two divergent problems.

First, People are now beginning to see Brown,(the Great Leader), for the lying disorganized bully he is. Last autumn they thought that he had had a rebirth of political will. All now see that this was a rebirth from a stinking egg.

Secondly, this dosn’t yet mean IMO that the populace are in love with the Tory’s. They are not. But with no chance for a L/Dem government, people havent any other choice but to prefer Conservatives, at the moment.

I say at the moment, because this rapidly deepening recession has blown the lid off the fantasy situation that the UK has lived in ever since WWII.

The Emperor has No Clothes. Britain, as a leading Evening Standard jounalist wrote today, has no industries to fall back on. Without the Banking and Financial sector, (which is crippled at the moment)
the UK has no wealth creating industries left. Oh, there are the Media and Advertising sectors, but with less and less to advertise, this is no panacea for the country.

Both Major Parties are to blame for this in equal measure. Labour for it socialist dogma and straight jacketing of the working and middle classes. Where Unions helped to destroy what major Industries we ahd left. Conservative for first following Labours Beveridge plan, but later not having the drive or guts to help start and then retain new industries ,(such as aerospace which was started and then abandoned). They are also mainly to blame for helping Labour wreck our education system with the abolition of Grammer schools. I could go on and on…………….

So today most people show a distain for politics and politicians.
This crisis could well be a turn of the screw to painful to bare. Could apathy end here?

End of Rant.
by weathercock January 19th, 2009 at 20:55
195- What did the Tories do to piss off Obama?
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 20:55
205 - Do you mean that the Home Office WAS notified in advance? Otherwise the story wouldn’t appear particularly newsworthy
by John O January 19th, 2009 at 20:57
205. Got a link?
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 20:58
Evening All.

oo er missus
by Jonathan January 19th, 2009 at 20:59
209 - PA link…

http://www.pressassociation.com/component/pafeeds/2009/01/19/home_office_not_told_of_mp_arrest?camefrom=home
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 21:01
Think back where we were around 35 years to the day. There was a three day week and, okay, we’re not facing that nationwide but I have friends who are down to that, and the factories are shut down for weeks or months on end. Where’s the Louis Mountbatten for our times, and a Government of National Salvation???!!! When I see people claiming that dear old Ted did a better job than Jonah, it’s clear that we’re in a bad way…
by Rich January 19th, 2009 at 21:02
Re 156,as a resident of Bournemouth East,I am a constituent of Tobias Ellwood.My opinion thus far was that he seemed to be from the more patrician one-Nation wing of the party,and whilst I would not vote for him (I have met him and he is a damned nice guy) I could happily accept him as my MP.
A recent local circular from the local Conservative Party took some very reactionary posititons-opposition to the Social Chapter being particualrly offensive to me.I am not saying Tobias is a horned-right wing devil (yet( but in the event of the Tories winning the next election,I will certainly watch every move with an eagle eye
by Patrick (West Ham fan who will probably vote Labour next time) January 19th, 2009 at 21:02
209. Damian Green Arrest

“Home Secretary Jacqui Smith and Home Office Permanent Secretary Sir David Normington will face questions on the investigation at the Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday. ”

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5j8V6riq_1OgKdcJh1T8ML9dw9wlQ
by Concerned Citizen January 19th, 2009 at 21:02
PA link via yahoo. on arrest/raid/

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090119/tuk-home-office-not-told-of-mp-arrest-6323e80.html
by dr spyn January 19th, 2009 at 21:05
191. “Manny Shinwell deposed at last by Aryan farming stock.”

What are you getting at. Is it supposed to be irony?
by history boy January 19th, 2009 at 21:05
216 - Yes RodCrosby is a neo nazi racist whose links invariably contain a Jewish angle.
by tim January 19th, 2009 at 21:06
2/3 more percentage points and Sunderland central goes blue!
by scampi January 19th, 2009 at 21:06
212 I was only approaching my 3rd birthday 35 years ago-I can remember the First Half of the Spring Term of Discontent(which it was to a then 8 year-old) in early 1979- most I have asked say Ted Heaths 3 day week was far,far worse than James Callaghans Winter of Discontent-god ,I would like to ram that phrase down someones throat.Off to the boozer to chill.
by Patrick (West Ham fan who will probably vote Labour next time) January 19th, 2009 at 21:09
217. But yours don’t? I thought you were ‘nice but dim’. I’m having second thoughts about nice.
by history boy January 19th, 2009 at 21:09
216. humour him… he’ll run out of buzz-words soon…
by RodCrosby January 19th, 2009 at 21:10
199 Mark, your little tiny world is over and done.

The Fire Station at Trumpton has been burnt down. There are derelict houses on Camberwick Green. The jobless are outside the biscuit factory at Chigley.

And there has been a God-almighty recession under a Labour Government.

You see, it was always a bit more complicated than “recessions only occur under Tory governments” from the Focus leaflets.
by Gwynfa January 19th, 2009 at 21:10
195 - Are you in regular contact with Obama’s transition team then Ermintrude?

Has he cleared his inauguration speech with you?
by Aguecheek January 19th, 2009 at 21:12
96 - That’s just being nasty.
by David Roe January 19th, 2009 at 21:14
There’s a real unmistakeable stench of decay and death over the current govt now. Does it really have to linger till 2010? Time for people in the Labour party to stand up for the people now.
by scampi January 19th, 2009 at 21:15
Not sure if this has been posted but for those with bets on length of Obama speech

Times says “world waits for the 17 minute speech”

17 = less than 23.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5549140.ece
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 21:16
224 - It will linger there until 2010. But then the same was probably being said of the Major government at this stage of 1996!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 21:17
221 He has run out, he repeats the tory toff stuff ad nauseam. and when he realises he is “offside” he tries to be friendly..Its sooo transparent.
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 21:17
Can we have an ‘As President Obama is also doing’ Watch on all Labour spokespeople who do interviews?

Someone has clearly told them to associate with Obama’s name at every turn as if it’ll have some kind of halo effect. I have to say I’ve seen burglars do less streuous wedging with a jemmy than some Labour spokespeople.

A more snappy title for this Watch would also be appreciated….
by Yokel January 19th, 2009 at 21:17
£1.5 trillion RBS debt, and all owed by the taxpayer after the coming share suspension/nationalisation.

And then there’s £7trillion+ with the other banks.

The only way out looks to be a truly colossal inflation or decade(s?) of deflation to pay it off.

Will this be Browns fate when he is finally booted out?

“Here was an old stupid politician who had tricked the nation into complacency about (the economy) for fear of losing an election. …Here is the very shrine of stupidity…This National Park of Failure…” Daily Mirror on PrimeMinister Baldwin

And

Baldwin started to receive critical letters: “insidious to begin with, then increasingly violent and abusive; then the newspapers; finally the polemicists who, with time and wit at their disposal, could debate at leisure how to wound the deepest.”
by calais January 19th, 2009 at 21:18
206. Nail hit squarely on the head weathercock.

People used to go into politcs to serve the country. They had integrity and they put the good of the country above self-preservation and above playing Party Politics.

These days the well-being of the country is treated like a political football and the majority of supporters of both major Parties act like the chanting yobs that used to infest our football terraces in the sixties and seventies.

The only thing that appears to matter to either Party is ensuring that they win the next election and the same applies to a lot of supporters who post on political websites such as this.

I am in agreement with Mark Senior’s post at 86, the partisan majority on here do seem to revel in every piece of bad news concerning our economy and turn a blind eye to the few pieces of good news that might give some cause for optimism.
by Penny4Them January 19th, 2009 at 21:20
There was a post on here wondering if there’d be five minutes of hysterical mass applause after every word which I thought had a ring of truth to it.

If so, then a 17 minute speech could go on for days.
by MrJones January 19th, 2009 at 21:20
219. It did, however, take at least two antagonists to bring the country to that level - the government, unions and (to a lesser extent) the management of large industries. We’ve sleepwalked into this crisis.
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 21:20
163 David - you’re welcome! Although this may have seemed a somewhat cavalier bet on my part, I felt sure that by Q2 ‘09, Brown would be deep in the doo doo again - in the event this happened two and a half months earlier.
by Peter from Putney January 19th, 2009 at 21:21
230. Even the nostaglia was better in the old days. And everyone could afford rose-tinted glasses.
by corporeal January 19th, 2009 at 21:22
228. Yes we can!
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 21:22
234. Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
by Penny4Them January 19th, 2009 at 21:23
212 - Actually the Mountbatten/Cecil King ‘plans’ took place during the Wilson Govt 1966-70 not Heath’s
by John O January 19th, 2009 at 21:23
38 JimM. Why is NickP a notable? I would have thought he was a particularly undistinguished MP.
by Svejk January 19th, 2009 at 21:25
228- The ‘Monkey See, Monkey Do’ List?
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 21:25
235. Its taking the rise, i seem to hear it everytime one of them comes on the radio.
by Yokel January 19th, 2009 at 21:27
233. To be honest, I always agreed with the general thrust of that line of thinking but expected there to be at least one roguish poll during the period which would give a fairly narrow Tory lead. If, however, the baseline lead is back up into the mid-teens (which is still a fairly big ‘if’, it has to be said), then even something outside the 3% MoE wouldn’t necessarily be a loser for you.
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 21:27
239. Getting warmer.
by Yokel January 19th, 2009 at 21:29
237 - Apols, but I’m pretty sure that some old money and service types had boats ready to flee the country in the winter of 73/74, and I know the Robert Carr said to his family at the time that Christmas 73 should be a proper celebration as it would all be downhill from there. I’m not suggesting that people are thinking like that, but there is a sense of decay akin to that long drawn out weekend after the Feb 74 election when Ted tried to stitch together a deal with Thorpe and only succumbed to the inevitable late on the Monday afternoon. This thing is heading in a one way direction. The phrase ‘you can’t buck the market’ springs to mind, and this sea of debt, liabilities and goodness know what else feels too powerful, multiple bail outs or not.

Apologies for sounding like Anthony Howard in recollection mode…
by Rich January 19th, 2009 at 21:35
167. I don’t consider myself a leftist, and I don’t hate Palin. However, I do think any suggstion she can become a talented and serious political figure is saying more about the suggester than about Palin. For people to fix their flaws they need to have the capacity for reflection and self-criticism. This is the way Obama moved from someone who talked over the heads of voters into one of the most talented, fluid public speakers in the country. Palin has neither of these features: she is a woman who feels her biggest mistake in the Presidential campaign was that she didn’t do what she wanted enough. Like George Bush, she is someone that doesn’t like to do her homework, as advisers on her own campaign admitted after the election regarding her refusal to prepare for the Couric interview. She is also not a thinker: there is not a single issue on which she diverges from American conservative orthodoxy.
by Socrates January 19th, 2009 at 21:36
86/96

Mark Senior continues to be LOL
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 21:37
Cable in the Times

A desperate attempt to revive a corpse:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5548797.ece
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 21:39
246- Of course, you would describe Bush himself in much the same terms. Now how many terms did Bush serve as president?
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 21:41
The Northern General Hospital in Sheffield recently introduced car parking charges. People immediately started parking on all the nearby streets, including bus routes, blocking local residents in, and creating traffic hazards. Eventually, double yellow lines were put down, but there’s no extra money to pay for enforcing them, so problems persist. Meanwhile, hospital staff have to pay for permission to use their car parks, but still aren’t guaranteed a space, because the car parks aren’t big enough.

The charges aren’t intended to deter freeloaders - it’s not a city centre site - they’re just there to pay for running the car parks, which is not exactly in accordance with Labour values.
by Robert of Sheffield January 19th, 2009 at 21:41
230 When I first started to read this site people like MarkSenior (and others like Redflump who seems to ahve disappeared) were always crying “Tory Doomster” or the like whenever anyone suggested there might be a housing crash or recession.
It is almost amusing that following the said housing crash and recession some of them are still at it.
Why don’t they just have the guts to say that they don’t like anyone criticising a Labour government.
by Concanvasser January 19th, 2009 at 21:42
248 - Is he talking about the latest Lib Dem political strategy?
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 21:43
245 Brown and Co cannot fight for their political skins and attempt to stabilise the economic situation at the same time. It just isn’t working, nor can it work. What has to be done to help the latter, is incompatible with the former. For all our sakes the current government has to go now.
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 21:44
I did always think it somewhat paradoxical that Labour could cry “No time for a novice!” and simultaneously cheer on Obama …

Disclaimer: I, too am an Obama fan, but have never gone with the “no time for a novice” line
by Andy Cooke January 19th, 2009 at 21:44
Am I alone in wandering why the ‘Big Two’ are bringing back re-treads? Mandelson and Clarke would both spend their days more fruitfully on beaches drinking iced tea. Together maybe they could discuss their love of the Euro?

So Chamereon’s super-blow? Eric Pickles, the only politician from the North of England who makes John Prescott seem bright. Bring back the Nanny-funder!! All is forgive…er…maybe not.
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 21:44
252 latest?
by Jonathan January 19th, 2009 at 21:45
247

Ave it continues to be BoB!
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 21:45
252. LOL! No Brown’s Bailout II
by jsfl January 19th, 2009 at 21:45
255 Is it a shift change in Dolly’s playpen?
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 21:46
258 Perhaps Brown should have called the second phase.

“The Surge”
by Jonathan January 19th, 2009 at 21:46
257 Brain of Britain ??!
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 21:47
248.

“A desperate attempt to revive a corpse:”

Ken Clarke giving GideO mouth to mouth?
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 21:47
245 et al. But they won’t go, for the same reason that they didn’t knife Brown in the summer: a choice of another year of ministerial cars and copper bottomed pension contributions, sub’d booze and gym, the pretence of power and influence, etc, versus the dole and unemployability. Throw into the mix a bit of ’something might turn up’ (as per the Major Government in 96-97) and you have fear, paralysis, and no election until 2010.
by Rich January 19th, 2009 at 21:47
249. Two of them - and two that will guarantee it will be a long, long time before the electorate will let someone like that get into the Oval Office again.
by Socrates January 19th, 2009 at 21:49
260 - Well it would describe the effect on the national debt!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 21:49
Bobbles on Behind
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 21:50
261 The question is, Will Ave it 09’s prediction prove less woeful than his inferior brother Ave it 08’s?
by Jonathan January 19th, 2009 at 21:51
As Boris Karloff said at Bela Lugosi’s funeral “I don’t think you’ll get out of this one, Bela”…
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzbound/images/LonelyGravesSomebodysDarling.JPG
by RodCrosby January 19th, 2009 at 21:51
266 What on earth are you prattling on about? Does Matron know you’re using the computer in her office?
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 21:51
264- Mind you, I’m not accepting your criticism of Palin except for the sake of argument. I’m only saying that I’m willing to withhold final judgment about her political future until the time comes for her to present herself as a candidate for president, if she ever decides to do so. At that time, we can see how she presents herself. But at least you concede that, even to the eyes of someone like you who probably wouldn’t vote for a Republican in a million years, Palin is no less viable as a candidate than Bush was.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 21:53
253. Shamelessly stolen, but astonishingly appropriate

We’re balancing right on the edge. Very slowly, move this way.

Very slowly. Don’t make a sharp movement.

Come as far up this end as you can get.

Watch it, watch it. Watch it, Bill!

The gold is pulling it over the edge. We’ll have to get it back.

Get back! Get back!

Now hold still. Don’t move. Don’t move at all.

Don’t no one get out the door, neither. Otherwise we’ll all go. Edge back as far as you can go, to
cou… to counterbalance me. Now…

Hang on a minute, lads. I’ve got a great idea.

The Italian Job
by Scott P January 19th, 2009 at 21:53
Penny4them, f*ck off, dearie.
by Seant January 19th, 2009 at 21:54
Anyway, thinking about potential Labour revival strategies, I’d like to pass on my wife’s opinion.

She’s rather apolitical and thinks my pbc obsession to be anywhere between amusing and irritatingly excessive, so she’s definitely more “normal” than me - so her views should be more indicative: She suggested Labour go with Darling as PM.

He hasn’t got the baggage that most of the other Labour possibilities have got, and he genuinely comes over as - well - fairly genuine. There’s a wide perception that the economic downfall isn’t due to him - he received a “hospital pass”. He’s one of the very few to have run in the Cabinet since the start, and done so without accumulating a negative image.

Yet I don’t recall hearing anyone here suggesting him. Milliband, Straw - even Reid or Clarke (or Ball!). But hardly a peep of opinion for Darling.
by Andy Cooke January 19th, 2009 at 21:55
266
267 Ave it is recognised as the no 1 UK political forecaster…
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 21:56
270. I actually think Bush has more capacity for self-doubt and independent thinking than Palin does. But I do concede that in the pre-2000 climate she would have been as viable a Presidential candidate as Bush. However, the sheer appalingness of the current administration have caused a lot of changed minds. Plus demographics are far less favourable to a right-wing evangelical now.

Plus Bush presented himself as a centrist conservative first time round - Palin can not do that now.
by Socrates January 19th, 2009 at 21:57
The Labour manifesto is going to make great reading - what on earth can they put in it? Perhaps NickP can tell us.
by Svejk January 19th, 2009 at 22:00
273. It’s a reasonable question. I think in other circumstances Darling would make a credible and popular leader. The problem now is he can’t take over without admitting that they have totally screwed it up and calling a GE which they would still lose horribly. What’s in it for him? The only plausible scenario would be for Brown to retire on “health grounds” and therefore for Darling to “step up”. I still think they would have to call a GE though.
by Scott P January 19th, 2009 at 22:01
276. An interesting suggestion from a comment on Tom Harris’ blog…

“It still surprises me that you morons (and by “you” I mean Labour MP’s AND grassroot supporters) still don’t get why the public are so disenfranchised, it’s because you’ve abandoned New Labour. We all voted for New Labour, THREE TIMES. In the current climate, with New Labour policies and a clear New Labour ethos you’d still be ahead of the Tories.

If you want to win the election, then bring back New Labour. Simple really.”

It would be entertaining to see them try
by Scott P January 19th, 2009 at 22:03
@273 (Andy Cooke)

Darling would not be able to reconcile the Brownite and Blairite factions, he just seems too mild and nice.

Straw (another ‘third way’ candidate) has basically disappeared from the face of the earth, but would probably be a better choice.

But this is unthinkable this side of an election unless things go incredibly catastrophically even more wrong.
by wibbler January 19th, 2009 at 22:04
276. Tories eat babies.
by glw January 19th, 2009 at 22:05
240 Nick Palmer is a notable MP - he has remained a back bencher for over 11 years (apart from brief stints as a PPS) despite:
1) being tongue browningly loyal
2) there being a very low threshold for promotion - see Prescott et al
by Gasman January 19th, 2009 at 22:06
279 I think it more likely that Darling resigns than becomes Prime Minister
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 22:06
The Daily Mash on those bank bailouts:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/only-twelve-more-bank-bail%11outs-to-go%2c-promises-darling-200901191519/
by Marquee Mark January 19th, 2009 at 22:06
283 - Classic!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:08
273 Darling is a weak man, clearly not suited for the job of Chancellor and like the current incumbent in Number 10 he’d be hopelessly out of his depth. Watch this mornings press conference from Downing Street. I’m sure he’d make an excellent family solicitor, which I believe is what he trained as, but not Prime Minister. We don’t need nice at the moment. Things are very bad - it wouldn’t work.
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 22:09
Govt owns 70% of RBS.

RBS shares down 70% today - so market cap down 70%.

Perhaps the Govt. should just tear up its RBS share certifcates - and then the value would be back where it was early this morning!

Mmmmmmm
by Marquee Mark January 19th, 2009 at 22:10
286 - 70 seems to be the magic number doesn’t it.
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:11
287 Maybe Nick Clegg has the remaining 30….
by Marquee Mark January 19th, 2009 at 22:14
There is still hope for Pickles?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01241/david_smith_1241938c.jpg
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:15
I don’t think Brown did himself any favours lecturing and patronising the press gang this morning. The footage of him on the news this evening makes him look vindictive, petty and bullying. Which of course is exactly what Mr Boom and Bust is, but I’m not sure Labour wanted to let the public in on the secret?
by GIN January 19th, 2009 at 22:15
288 -
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:16
278.

“We all voted for New Labour, THREE TIMES.”

and Chamereon can make it FOUR!
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:16
289 He looks better than Dolly ‘The Tramp’ Draper.
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 22:17
A truly horrible night for the Govt. on ITN News at Ten. As the untold billions fall into a graphic of Britain with a giant hole at its centre, these are followed by our houses, factories, offices….

“If Britain were a company, the administrators would have been called in…”

That is what you get, Gordon, if you try to threaten the ITN reporter at your press conference!
by Marquee Mark January 19th, 2009 at 22:17
272 SeanT, is that the best you can come up with?

I am disappointed. I thought I might be worthy of at least a few lines of your supercilious bile.
by Penny4Them January 19th, 2009 at 22:17
275.

“Bush has more capacity for self-doubt and independent thinking than Palin ”

as in “any microscopic fraction is invariably greater than zero”?
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:18
New Labour never really existed - not in the sense of being a viable political theory/concept.

It was a collective desire for power after years in the wilderness.

If John Smith had not had that heart attack, I very much doubt that the New Labour project would have taken the direction it did - the party would have had a more coherent approach to matters.

It was an exercise of style over substance - built around a well-controlled media strategy.

Things have moved on - New Labour cannot be reborn
by Simon January 19th, 2009 at 22:19
292 zzzzzzzzzzz
Wage Slave, try a different tack, just for once, theres a good fellow. its sooooooooooo boring
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 22:20
293.

I think your judgement must be Pickled!

Still, at least there’s no chance of him getting caught in a sex scandal!
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:20
299. That’s what I thought about David Mellor!
by Charlotte Corday January 19th, 2009 at 22:21
294 - Can’t wait to see the newspapers!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:23
298.

Of course your own frequent alternation of variable praise and criticism of Tory, Labour and Lib Dem politicians alike is SOOOO much more interesting. I stand in your shadow, oh mighty one.

Btw where DID you get that comfort blanket?
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:23
300.

Surely No One ever thought about David Mellor? The NHS offers no cure!
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:24
Man U - Champions?
by Marquee Mark January 19th, 2009 at 22:24
I have a pound coin in my pocket.

I might buy a bank tomorrow - RBS?
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 22:24
Excellent article on Labour list - no really , by Ben Wegg Prosser. “Brown has now been brought back to earth with a widening poll gap and a sense that his new year campaigning has not quite delivered.” ….ends by saying that he is writing from an airport departure lounge!

Not surprising that the rats are leaving but interesting that Labourlist gives them space to say so.
by Icarus January 19th, 2009 at 22:25
304 nailed on now - only thing more likely is Con win general election!
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 22:26
305.

and you might buy a single grain of rice!
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:26
305 - Wait until Wednesday, you’ll get change!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:26
293. You mean this fine upstanding gentleman?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/128061.stm
by Scott P January 19th, 2009 at 22:27
306 - I saw that. It was the first suggestion that Labourlist might survive for 6 months. More articles of that sort and it will be actually worth visiting as opposed to gawping at.
by antifrank January 19th, 2009 at 22:28
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_city/7838966.stmsts

Kaka rejects Man City move - what a surprise!!!

Man City = Stockport
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 22:28
312 try this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_city/7838966.stm
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 22:28
Did Vince Cable really say he would take an Aston Martin to a desert Island? Seems of a bit of an odd thing to do as there are unlikely to be any roads or petrol even to run the engine on?

Maybe I should do a picture of Vince inside an Aston on a beach?

Hope it is more popular than Hitler/Brown preparing a hole or Brown/one foot in the grave!
by Martin Day January 19th, 2009 at 22:29
294 - I flicked between ITV and BBC news tonight for coverage of the bail out and the reshuffle. I haven’t previously ‘bought’ the spin of the BBC being a mouthpiece of the Govt but the contrast in the pieces between Pym/Chakrabati and Robinson vs Bradby et al was breathtaking. The editing of which politician was aired was also indicative of the slant each was taking…
by scrapheap January 19th, 2009 at 22:29
“MySpace partnered with Katalyst Media, founded by Ashton Kutcher, to encourage A-listers to record a pledge of service to President-elect Barack Obama.

“I pledge to free one million people from slavery in the next five years,” said [Demi] Moore, who produced and directed the MySpace video [see video at website].

“Ashton and Demi’s commitment is truly inspiring as are the moving pledges that cultural icons and everyday Americans will deliver to support President Obama,” said Chris DeWolfe, CEO of MySpace.”

http://www.usmagazine.com/news/ashton-kutcher-enlists-celebrities-to-make-presidential-pledge

Make your pledge to serve Obama today! I’m sure the Queen won’t mind.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 22:29
303. I think you’ve slightly muisunderstood me.

Serious point: This has probably been discussed on here before but will Darling be the one to knife Brown (metaphorically speaking)? Darling had been adopting the body language of the cowered and subdued spouse and it is often the battered wife who the one that snaps and sticks the knife in.
by Charlotte Corday January 19th, 2009 at 22:29
310 Here’s one of him on the phone, giving orders to wageslave and tim -

http://www.centrictravel.com/images/thums/JohnnyVegasBenidorm.jpg
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 22:30
Is it possible that NickP is closeted with his minders, working on the line to take? No sign of him here.
by Svejk January 19th, 2009 at 22:31
316. Good grief it’s all so embarassing-worse than Dianamania. They’ll be saying he can cure the sick next.
by runnymede January 19th, 2009 at 22:32
297. Yes - New Labour was a strategy, not an ideology, and one suited (very well) to its time. That time has passed and the coalition is irretrievably broken, at least, while Labour remains in government. If Labour is to retain power, Brown needs to put a different and equally big coalition together (or cheat by fiddling the system).
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 22:32
Labour still in the 30s.

Ozzie out.

by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 22:32
Love ITV tonight

Paraphrasing -Just as the recession sh1t hits the fan, the Tories bring back the nice bloke who got us out of the last recession.

As the Great Leader said himself, only recently “this is no time for a novice”
by saddo January 19th, 2009 at 22:33
320 - You mean he can’t?!?
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:33
319. Working hard on ensuring his future livelihood perhaps. Something in the EU I suspect.
by runnymede January 19th, 2009 at 22:34
I love Portillo’s soundbite ‘A Ken Clarke is not just for Christmas’

Today could go down as a significant turning point in so many ways
by Simon January 19th, 2009 at 22:35
Incidentally where’s that poster (can’t remember who) who was confidentially telling us that the new Caliphate will be launched tomorrow with madrassars set up by presidential decree all across America by 1201pm.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 22:35
Obama has tony blair like appeal, but people will soon tire of the empty rhetoric. And celebs endorsing anything just has me reaching for the sickbag. Reminds me of medieval courts where the jokers kissed the arse of the rich and powerful.
by james a January 19th, 2009 at 22:35
313. Great news. Now they will have to make do with Bellamy - much more up their street. I for one will be delighted when the sheik who runs City, Briatore at QPR, Abromavich at Chelsea and all the rest of them have slung their hook and allowed our game to return to a semblemce of its former self before people started suggesting paying a single player £0.5 million a week to kick a football around.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 22:36
325 - The EU won’t have him now

The World Bank certainly won’t

He is the next Ted Heath

A bitter, twisted lost soul
by Simon January 19th, 2009 at 22:36
327. Was it Peter2′ ? He was scarily Obama- and Islamo-phobic as I recall.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 22:37
319 almost certainly after the other nights post. It’ll be something to do with the fact that the latest poll is in contradiction to his latest canvass returns, and that he found another three Tory defecters who thought Brown was doing a great job.
Nothwithstanding that, latest canvass returns show support for bail out 2
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 22:37
324 At least in the United Kingdom our Head of State can cure scrofula with just a touch

note: Offer only available from properly crowned Kings or Queen Regnant of England and/or France.
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 22:38
320- But Princess Diana, like JFK, was a deceased icon (at least at the time that the worship reached stratospheric levels). Where is the precedent for such worship of a LIVING icon? Just how far will this go, and what will it lead to? That is a question that I’m not prepared to answer.

By the way, I can’t point to ANY other president in U.S. history who has received this level of mass worship before having done ANYTHING as president, and for that matter before having done much as a non-president. We’re in unprecedented territory here for sure.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 22:38
Newsnight is great… Broon was wearing his bailout tie!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:38
I just flicked onto Newsnight - and saw that Paul Mason was doing the report

There is no way I can stomach him. Having read his ‘book’ in late 2007, it is clear that he has no real grasp of history or political realities.
by Simon January 19th, 2009 at 22:38
re 288 I bought some more RBS this afternoon.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 22:38
319, 325: nice to see my fans like svejk and runnymede anxious to get news. Just busy today - my secretary in Westminster has been off due to family illness so there’s piles of stuff to sort out. Tomorrow we’ve got John Denham in the constituency so I’ll be tied up all afternoon and evening. You want a poll comment? Ugh!
by Nick Palmer MP January 19th, 2009 at 22:39
304. Looks like it - again. But as the alternatives are a) Liverpool (dour, dislike them anyway) and b) Chelsea (a byword for all that is wrong with the premier league) Man Utd are perhaps the least worse.

Hope to see them tonk Derby tomorrow to demoralise them for Friday…
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 22:40
318.

I was fighting Labour REAL Labour, not this dilute Tory tosh you have now, when you were in nappies.

Now was that last year or the year before?
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:40
317. Not unless he does it out of complete frustration or loses all sense of political perspective.

Knifing Brown won’t help Labour. No - really, it won’t. Apart from setting off a whole new set of infighting (and for all their current problems, one thing the government does have going for it is apparent unity), it will mean the main players will necessarily take their eye off the economic ball to protect or promote their own careers - not something likely to go down well with the public.

If the knifing is a ‘Lawson’, Brown is wounded but survives, which is to no-one’s benefit; if it’s a ‘Howe’, who takes over? And besides, the problem is only partly Brown himself. Mostly it’s the likely continual stream of dismal economic news and there’s not much any new leader could do about that - especially so if the people in the senior posts are all having to learn their jobs anew.
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 22:41
re 333 but no-one’s been “touched” since Queen Anne’s day.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 22:41
334. On a serious note, it’s unlikely to do him much good. This kind of mindless adulation rarely benefits its subject - he will have to be remarkably level-headed to avoid it clouding his judgement.
by runnymede January 19th, 2009 at 22:41
336 - He is doing a good job for once!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:42
338 - That’s a nice, honest appraisal, Nick!
by David Roe January 19th, 2009 at 22:42
343 - He has judgement?
by Simon January 19th, 2009 at 22:42
328.

” people will soon tire of the empty rhetoric”

Hopefully this means 14 months of Chamereon pretending to be Tony Blair will make Britain see the light!
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:43
338. A spin-free post! Are you ill, Mr.Palmer?
by runnymede January 19th, 2009 at 22:43
Yvette Cooper on Newsnight looks quite, quite demented. She’s borrowed hubby’s crazy pop-out eyes for the night!
by Marquee Mark January 19th, 2009 at 22:44
Can I just say that I want to pummel Yvette Cooper with a cricket bat, she is so irritating!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:45
338.

” we’ve got John Denham in the constituency so I’ll be tied up all afternoon and evening.”

Labour into Bondag!?!. Didn’t that sort of thing from the real Tories hand the Lib Dems Romsey on a plate, or was it Eastleigh?
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:45
342 Perhaps the Hanoverians were concerned if it didn’t seem to work there would be a greater call for restoration of the Stuarts or doubt cast on their right to the throne?

Bet one or two monarchs since have surreptitiously “touched” just to see.
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 22:45
334. Where was the justification for the worship of Diana? A nice looking lass who worse some cracking frocks and was married to a big eared prince.

Obama - the first black guy to be elected most powerful man in the world. Total popular vote: 69,456,897.

I’m glad he inspires people, know it will be tough for him to meet expectations, but wish him well.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 22:46
349/350 - I can’t watch
by Simon January 19th, 2009 at 22:46
350.

“I want to pummel Yvette Cooper with a cricket bat”

You trying to outdo NickP with your deviance? Remember Boy George!
by wage slave January 19th, 2009 at 22:46
354 I will, so you don’t have to. It’s a dirty job, but….
by Marquee Mark January 19th, 2009 at 22:47
I see its the B-team + Vinncy on Newsnight. Who in the Labour Party thinks that Cooper is any good on Newsnight? I have never seen her give a good performance.

Oh apparently its Johnny Foreigner again, not pumping money into the UK.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 22:47
353 - You speak of human beauty and grace as though it was something not to be valued. You have spent far too long around political websites.
by antifrank January 19th, 2009 at 22:49
Cable’s not as good as he thinks he is, and why’s he got a handkerchief in his hand while speaking? Snotty nose???
by Rich January 19th, 2009 at 22:50
334. Washington?
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 22:50
358. I value it – I just don’t see why it justifies mass worship. Or everyone would worship my wife, which would irritate me.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 22:51
338 :lol:
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 22:51
357. They judge talking over someone as success.
by woody662 January 19th, 2009 at 22:51
353- Neither misplaced hero worship nor Obama’s melanin will improve the lot of anybody; all that should matter is what he does to improve the lives of his countrymen. I’m still waiting for him to earn praise by doing something, rather than by merely being something.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 22:53
Cooper lost it and started blaming the Conservatives for not supporting it enough… can we have an election??
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:53
Yvette cooper is awful. That horrible patronising angry frown she and other labour ministers do all the time just makes me loathe them all the more. God help us destroy them.
by james a January 19th, 2009 at 22:53
338. It is the duty of all neutrals to get behind, and then be disappointed by, Aston Villa (who are still only 3 points off the top).
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 22:53
341 Thank you, David, for a very lucid reply to my query.
by Charlotte Corday January 19th, 2009 at 22:54
Here we go with Crick doing his usual I’m sure.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 22:54
re 352 well with the rise of multi drug-resistant TB maybe we need monarchs to start touching again.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 22:55
358 - Some people dream of being rich and famous and stylish and charming and romantic, perhaps with pathos and loneliness in the background. For such people, Princess Diana lived their dream, an embodiment of a romantic novel.

It is easy to mock such people, but we all have our heroes and heroines. Of course, they all have feet of clay, but that doesn’t make our adulation any the less sincere.

What do you dream of, bobajob?
by antifrank January 19th, 2009 at 22:56
367. More than happy to support Villa, but not entirely neutral having backed them at ridiculous odds
by Scott P January 19th, 2009 at 22:56
369 - After the next election can he be the first BBC person to have a P45?
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 22:56
364. Being able to inspire your people is a priceless thing in politics - it helps one lead. Oh to have some of that over here - Brown and Cammo aren’t exactly dripping with stardust.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 22:57
One of the most dangerous things about heathen commies is their craving for a socialist messiah.
by MrJones January 19th, 2009 at 22:57
Villa have no chance - but it would be nice to see them win!

They have a sniff at top 4 but Arsenal are more likely…
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 22:57
371. My wife, mostly.

And when I’m not, arguing the toss with you on here my good man.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 22:58
360- Washington would probably have met the criteria of my first paragraph in 334, but clearly not the other paragraph. Being the man who had single-handedly saved the revolution and led the country to independence, some hero worship was due. Still, he accepted it all with great humility and simplicity. He was a real American hero. As was said, he was “first in war, first in peace, and first in the hearts of his countrymen.”
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 22:58
369 Crick always looks to me like one of those shady private detectives digging around in the dirt.
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 22:58
Well Crick got that line against Clarke shoved right back where the sun doesn’t shine.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 22:59
377 - You really do live the dream then!
by antifrank January 19th, 2009 at 22:59
353. That depends on what you mean by elected. There’s a good case for saying that this was the first person of African descent to be the most powerful in the world:

http://www.roman-emperors.org/sepsev.htm
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 22:59
Has anyone been paid by William Hill yet over Ken?

I’m starting to think they are taking the mickey. We’ve even actually seen him on the front bench today!!
by David Roe January 19th, 2009 at 22:59
376. Utd it will be. It would be nice to see Villa break the big four oligarchy - but they won’t. As for Chelsea, Utd or Liverpool, I care not a jot who wins really. I’m sure Sky will try to pretend its exciting, but unless you actually support one of them, who really cares?
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 23:00
I noticed that Crick conveniently include the disclaimer regarding Clarke and his VAT reduction suggestion.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 23:00
Sorry,

I noticed that Crick conveniently didn’t include the disclaimer regarding Clarke and his VAT reduction suggestion.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 23:01
381. Oh yes - for me, fantasy is reality every single day.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 23:01
Laurel and Hardy on the front page of the Mail. LOL
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 23:02
Oh wow, those front pages are a real shock to me. Guardian on about Obama, Daily Rant on about cancer drugs. Hardly any of those headlines directly blast the government.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 23:02
388 - Laurel and Hardy was Express.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 23:03
390 oops
by Maggie Thatcher Fan January 19th, 2009 at 23:03
338: Nick P - “Tomorrow we’ve got John Denham in the constituency so I’ll be tied up all afternoon and evening”

And a front page splash in Sunday’s News of the World?

I thought politicians generally gave careful thought to what they said and wrote…
by Bob Sykes January 19th, 2009 at 23:04
For those betting on the length of Obama speech, the Times is reporting it will be 17 mins.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 23:05
Good night. Let this be the last night under a Bush presidency. Unless its Jenna in 2024, breaking the DEM-GOP deadlock with her inspiring candidacy for the American Party Party.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 23:06
347 “Hopefully this means 14 months of Chamereon pretending to be Tony Blair will make Britain see the light!”

Wageslave, you are boring. Labour, new and old is your creature. You dont deserve to be listened to.
by Al Fresco January 19th, 2009 at 23:07
389 For the Guardian and the BBC there is only Obama - it would take the death of a major, major figure or some huge natural disaster to tear their adoring eyes away from Washington, mere economics doesn’t do it for them.
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 23:07
353- I’m sure you’re looking forward to boosting for Jindal in 2012 as the first Indian person to be most powerful man in the world. As long as we’re going to be inspiring everybody by breaking down barriers, let’s break them down as quickly as possible (i.e., not wait until 2016 or later)!
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 23:07
378. Quite right. That’ll teach me to skimread and miss the second point in your second paragraph.
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 23:08
395 - Wageslave is generally regarded as ‘left of centre’

As a spokesman, he must be a great disappointment to them.

Neither witty, insightful nor even original.
by SimonStClare January 19th, 2009 at 23:08
re 394 it’s that it’s still time for a fist night under a Cheney presidency that worries me.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 23:08
383 - I was thinking that myself David - I’ve not been paid either. Can’t think why they haven’t paid out yet.
by Max January 19th, 2009 at 23:09
398- That’s all right, just don’t let it happen again.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 23:09
Any idea when the next ICM poll is due? Their last one had Labour on 33%, the lowest vote share of that batch of polls. Given the drops in Labour’s support have been about 4-5% that could well show them below 30% if the recent rends hold.
by The Watcher January 19th, 2009 at 23:10
397. @S&S. As he opposes gay marriage and supports the teaching of creationism, I cannot support him (not that he will miss me, you understand) but certainly he is an interesting candidate for the GOP, that’s for sure. He would look like progress, even if perhaps his fairly socially conservative views would such perhaps he isn’t.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 23:11
396. To be fair, the inauguration of a new US president comes round rarely; it’s a fair bet that dismal economic news will still be with us on Thursday.

Let them have their moment. Don’t you remember what it’s like to have hope, belief and inspiration?
by David Herdson January 19th, 2009 at 23:13
Vince was laying into the government on Newsnight this evening. Perhaps those Unity Government talks broke down at the first hurdle?
by GIN January 19th, 2009 at 23:13
404. Erratum: would *suggest* perhaps he isn’t.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 23:15
392 I think you have to be a bit of a masochist if you are a labour supporter to post here at the moment.
by valleyboy January 19th, 2009 at 23:15
400. Ahem. A *fist* night sounds even scarier…
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 23:15
408. Ho ho.
by Bobajob January 19th, 2009 at 23:16
This probably explains Gordon’s short temper when questioned (from the Times):

“This has all the hallmarks of the Government feeling an urgent need to do something, and to be seen to be doing something, but being way behind in terms of being on top of the detail needed to put the plan into action.”
“further details of how this asset protection scheme will work will not emerge until next month. The Treasury conceded that the measures will not take effect until April.”

Headless chickens? Do something, anything, as long as it gets on the front pages as “action to save peoples jobs and businesses” even if it isn’t going to be implemented for another 3 months?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5549327.ece
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 23:16
Perhaps Unity Government talks existed only in your own mind, GIN.

IIRC it was Tory fantasists who were promoting the entire idea.
by B. Hart January 19th, 2009 at 23:16
this rumour would escalate the uk crisis to a whole new level if this happens re uk plc debt being downgraded. Spain has been cut from AAA…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4291788/Banking-bailout-The-big-question.html
by scrapheap January 19th, 2009 at 23:16
re 409 well who knows what graphic torture methods President Cheney would manage to come up with in a day.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 23:18
413. That’s the apocalypse scenario. The government has very little room for manoeuvre and it mightn’t take much to cause overseas investors to pull the plug.

Fraser Nelson wrote a piece about this scenario this morning. Consider the bit about having to go to Beijing or Riyadh with a begging bowl. Brown wouldn’t get back into the country alive if that happened!

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3268366/whos-got-brown.thtml
by The Watcher January 19th, 2009 at 23:22
411 It’s Mandelsons infamous famous ‘Grid’ isn’t it - they have to be seen to be doing something every day regardless of whether it’s any use or not. Style over substance.

The best bit of this mornings conference was Brown blaming Bernie Madoff for Britains problems!
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 23:22
408- Maybe that’s why Nick and I get along so well here contrary to all political common sense. We’re both about as politically welcome here as skunks at a garden party!
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 23:22
416 - No the best thing as pointed out on Newsnight was that he wore the same suit and tie as he did when doing Bailout I.
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 23:23
412. Touche!
by GIN January 19th, 2009 at 23:25
418 Groundhog day? - if he has to keep doing it until he gets it right, we are in for a long haul.
by SallyC January 19th, 2009 at 23:27
417 Just a gentle reminder that I am also one of the few Labour supporters left on this site, and, in a state of despair at the moment.Not looking forward to an almost inevitable Tory government.
by valleyboy January 19th, 2009 at 23:29
testinggg
by Al Fresco January 19th, 2009 at 23:31
Obama is another Blair at worse. Another Kenedy at best - and JFK was not a good President.

Kennedy, like Blair, was a disaster for his country. Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Welfare.

The ecstasy shown for Barrak Hussein Obama by the left is true racism, simply based on the fact he is half african.
by Al Fresco January 19th, 2009 at 23:31
re 421 valleyboy then don’t be apathetic and sit on your hands. You know what’s wrong, you said so the other day. So you ought to be doing everything you can to get rid of him.
by Chris A January 19th, 2009 at 23:31
420/418 Well we know his Beach Outfit (black trousers, beige jacket, shirt with no tie, polished brogues) recycled as his Meeting the Troops / Firing Machine Guns Outfit, now we know his Bail Out Outfit, need perhaps to classify his others.
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 23:32
ok what is the word getting moderated????
by Al Fresco January 19th, 2009 at 23:33
421- You really have to love politics for politics sake to make it through periods like this (me from an American perspective, you from a British perspective) with your spirits still unbroken. The only consolation may be that in opposition you can go on offense. Playing defense really isn’t much fun!
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 23:33
So far, Barak Hussein has achieved nothing. He is a product of the chicago machine. A machine that is notoriously c0rrupt.
by Al Fresco January 19th, 2009 at 23:33
425 - The only one many people want to see is his Resignation Outfit!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 23:33
If |Barak Obama delivers what the droo1ing, ecsttatic leftees, liberals and non-americans expect, the US will suffer the fate Labour imposed on Britain.
by Al Fresco January 19th, 2009 at 23:34
430 Good luck.
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 23:35
424 I have posted before than I am not anti GB, but I am well aware that he has never been popular out in the country, apart from a brief spell.And, whilst Tory posters here blame him for everything,I think he has largely been the victim of events.
I do not think changing the leader will make a blind bit of difference now.All that will save Labour’s bacon is ‘events dear boy, events’.
by valleyboy January 19th, 2009 at 23:37
MaGuire on the SKY review - let’s see how much imaginary sand he can summon up to stuff his head into.
by SallyC January 19th, 2009 at 23:38
429- That would probably be his birthday suit, once the crowds have stormed the Bastille at 10 Downing Street and demanded said resignation after a brief but violent ripping and tearing encounter.
by Stars and Stripes January 19th, 2009 at 23:38
Before christmas, we told you that, when reality hit Britain in the new year, Labour’s false recovery would disappear like melting snow.

After the bargains of the closing down sales had been bought, all that is left is job losses.

The mighty Elephant is slain. There was meat for all. Now there are just bleached white bones.
by Al Fresco January 19th, 2009 at 23:39
ps.

One year ago, you were also told that Bank shares were worthless.

You were also told to buy 5:2 on a conservative majority.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.
by Al Fresco January 19th, 2009 at 23:40
432 Valleyboy, Brown isn’t necessarily to blame for events, but he is responsible for the mismanagement of the economy which leaves us in a position where the UK is unable to deal with the outcome of those events.
by EdP January 19th, 2009 at 23:41
421 Its not that bad - by the time Her Majesty’s 70th (Platinum? Diamond II) Jubilee comes round it will be time for a change again and PM Osborne. who knows, will be wondering whether to call an election that Autumn or hold on till 2023 in hope it will be better by then.

and on the 3D interactive sensurround Pb.com Ave It 22 will be complaining that the Labour Louts are dominating the discussions and Tories never get a look in. SeanT will be dropping in “virtually” with “friends” to say that he had always said Osborne was useless and wasn’t it time the Tories dropped him.

Jack W will be 119…
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 23:43
I think Russia will be one of the big economic stories this year. They are going to revalue their budget using a putative $41 barrel of oil (instead of $95). They have huge currency reserves but even so will only be able to last so long before it starts to hurt. This will hit their ‘real economy’ far harder than in countries with more diversified economies.

Could lead to either a weakening of the Putin stranglehold, or an increasingly dictatorial regime… Putin can’t invade a small neighbour again as the effect on external investment would be catastrophic - especially with lots of other 2nd world economies desperate for investment. But he might well be tempted to play more energy geopolitics - maybe more belligerently than with Ukraine - to distract his domestic audience.
by wibbler January 19th, 2009 at 23:44
434 valleyboy, you are blind. You will not see.

Brown is not a victim of events. He created them, even more than Blair.

Ask on the internet for a list of his crimes. A list will come.

But start at the beginning, the tax raid on Pension Funds that killed Pensions and Pension investment…. Or IR35…

Right from the very beginning, Gordon Brown was doing his best to destroy wealth creation and encourage debt and dependency.

Could you really NOT see it coming?!?
by Al Fresco January 19th, 2009 at 23:45
Evening all. The good polling news continues, I see. It will soon be no longer news when a new poll comes out, just confirmation of what everyone knows.

Cameron’s majority is going depend mainly on two (related) things now, I think: How much the LibDems can take disaffected Labour voters, and whether Labour remains united. After the squabbling and back-stabbing of last summer, they’ve been remarkably disciplined since around September. There seem to be signs that this is beginning to break down; if so, I might start selling Labour again on the spreads.
by Richard Nabavi January 19th, 2009 at 23:46
396. It isn’t “economics” vs “Obama” - what do you think Obama is going to talk about if it isn’t economics?! The backdrop to his speech tomorrow is the biggest economic crisis to hit the US since the 30’s. I for one will be listening carefully to what he says because it will set the tone for the next 4 years and the success of otherwise of his policies will have an impact over here.
by Ermintrude January 19th, 2009 at 23:50
441 - I think we need to see a few more polls, but I accept your premise. Labour must be looking at the future with mounting dread, as not only have they got another year of crisis managing the economy but are likely to suffer a miserable defeat at the end of it and they are increasingly relying on the improbable occurring.
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 23:50
Is it time Peter the Punter ditched his NOM position before it’s worth less than RBS shares?
by SallyC January 19th, 2009 at 23:51
442. You really don’t have to listen that closely, we’ve been hearing him say the same things for months. If you don’t know what the tone of the next 4 years will be then you’ll just have to wait until it’s over.

On topic, nice poll!
by Scott January 19th, 2009 at 23:52
Love the front page of the Mirror, “Have no fear!” they tell their readers. Would have been better having Corporal Jones out of Dad’s Army shouting “Don’t Panic!”.
by Oracle January 19th, 2009 at 23:54
Still not back from the party, Mike, to provide “more later in the evening”. Must be enjoying yourself!!
by Richard (first post today) January 19th, 2009 at 23:54
A large well known solicitors in Leeds [Fox Hayes] called in the administrators today in more bad news for West Yorkshire.
by SallyC January 19th, 2009 at 23:55
443. And whats more, this long, terrible year, where they just wait around on death row, could well lead to a generation in the political wilderness. At least when the Tories were hanging around waiting for their inevitable end in 1996, they were giving the country good news month after month in terms of the economy beginning to return to a healthy state. Labour will give us nothing but misery piled on misery this year.
by GIN January 19th, 2009 at 23:56
448 - There are quite a few of marginals up that way isn’t there?
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 23:56
446 Today ‘Don’t Panic’.
Tomorrow, ‘Crisis? What crisis?’.
by SallyC January 19th, 2009 at 23:57
438

Ave it 22 is the future!
by Ave it 09 January 19th, 2009 at 23:57
445. What patronising rubbish - what about the 2 million or so Americans who’ll be in Washington DC tomorrow, should it all be obvious to them too?
by Ermintrude January 19th, 2009 at 23:57
449 - So perhaps the adulating, flag-waving crowds in Downing Street will be genuine after the next election!
by James Burdett January 19th, 2009 at 23:58
442 Today there was more important news and real economics in this country to discuss - so the BBC & Sky cut to Obama painting a wall.

Tomorrow Obama isn’t delivering a Budget, we already know his Economic Plan, its being discussed and factions in the Democrats are fighting to put in their pet projects and changes.

Tomorrow he will deliver an uplifting, well crafted speech echoing Lincoln’s first inaugural speech in calling for all Americans to overcome their differences (No more Red States etc,) in these difficult times, he will echo JFK in calling for sacrifice for good of the country, he will echo Roosevelt in saying the US can overcome, he will echo Reagan’s first inaugural speech as regards a future of responsibility and a glimpse of the dawning of a newer, better, healed nation.

and in 6 months…..
by Ted January 19th, 2009 at 23:59
450. Not sure. I used to work there but live over to the left.
I always think of it as being Labour country but I think the Tories are now the largest group on the City Council.
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 00:00
How on earth can a firm of solicitors go tits up?

I thought they were like antique dealers that still manage to make a living despite being shipwrecked on a desert island with only a proverbial deckchair…
by SimonStClare January 20th, 2009 at 00:01
O/t but the people behind the TheyWorkForYou website are urging us to be active in trying to persuade our MPs that they’ve had their snouts in the trough for long enough. Please take a moment to have a look here and then write to your MP urging him to vote down Harman’s odious order.
by Chris A January 20th, 2009 at 00:02
454. I think by 2010 most people will be too fed and angry to bother celebrating, They will be desperate for someone, anyone, to come in and start sorting out the mess, but I don’t expect much in the way of “celebrating” The mood between 1997 and 2010 will be polar opposites, even though the actual result may be quite similar…

I’m sure there will be a collective sign of relief at the weird Scottish guy and his band of assorted oddballs being voted out, mind.
by GIN January 20th, 2009 at 00:04
457 - Probably a conveyencing firm.
by James Burdett January 20th, 2009 at 00:04
“I think he has largely been the victim of events.”

ValleyBoy - He was the biggest perpetrator and beneficiary of the myth of “the end of boom and bust”. Events have merely proved what an economic charlatan he was, selling snake-oil medicine on a mountain of credit. It is right and appropriate that he gets the blame. He is a victim, but he’s had 30 million victims, that is UK taxpayers, at his mercy for 12 years … and has never shown the slightest inclination to stop confiscating massive amounts of their money and swilling much of it down the drain. Did you see him grandstanding over sending £20m of our money to Hamas/Gaza yesterday?
by Bournville Observer January 20th, 2009 at 00:06
re 459 even though the actual result may be quite similar…

Please God, no. I couldn’t even bear to contemplate another 5 years of this lot.
by Chris A January 20th, 2009 at 00:06
462. I mean, similar in respect of governing party being sent to the political wilderness for a decade and huge endorsement for the new government.
by GIN January 20th, 2009 at 00:08
re 461 if we have spent £20m to Gaza then Brown’s gone up a bit in my estimation. He has at least done the right thing for once there. Now if we coupled that with not selling the murderous butchers in the Israeli government any arms then even better.
by Chris A January 20th, 2009 at 00:08
460 - “The purge is affecting the firm’s property conveyancing department”

Oh I see, another knock-on casualty of the house market collapse.

Makes sense.
by SimonStClare January 20th, 2009 at 00:09
John Craig says that Brown’s mood is now ‘morose’.
by James Burdett January 20th, 2009 at 00:10
427 Legal poperty work. It’s not happening.

In truth this recession is like no other in legal circles. They will not be the last. Legal firms used to have a few fat areas to live off when times were hard both public nad private. Not anymore.

They often only have limited areas where they are pulling in the dough and it is private client work; the rest [both private and public] runs on tight margins.
I know some firms rely on the cushion of mergers and aquistions/commercial conveyancing etc. My old firm has had made many redundant - something unheard of in any previous reccessions.
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 00:11
Jon Craig reporting that Mr Brown’s mood which was so bouyant before Christmas is now described by Labour MPs as ‘morose’.
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 00:12
468. Isn’t it said to see someone so obsessed by the polling position of his party. It’s like looking at pb.com personified.

My we’re ugly.
by G January 20th, 2009 at 00:14
455- And with the new president, welcome to the new America:

“Mason school officials said they are taking a proactive educational approach in advance of next week’s planned Inauguration Day activities. “Inappropriate comments that may make other students, staff or families feel unwelcome or uncomfortable in school or on the bus will not be tolerated,” Superintendent Kevin Bright said in an e-mail sent to parents Monday, Jan. 12. The district, he said, expects students and staff to show respect for President-elect Obama and the incoming administration, as well as President Bush and the outgoing administration, and recognize that “while the election is a competitive process, our nation’s greatness is displayed when all sides come together for a united country.”"

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/01/15/pjm011509inaugletter.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=16

Obama is now going to be president, so you’d better unite behind the new president, kiddies, or else… Let’s see if the ACLU lawyers rush in to stop this wipeout of the First Amendment. My advice: don’t bet on it.
by Stars and Stripes January 20th, 2009 at 00:16
455. Yes but with respect its rather ridiculous that you a) sound so bitter about the news media publicising this event and b) almost implying that it’s a nasty left-wing conspiracy. They’ll be watching it all over the world you know. And to put the economics in proportion it is not, as you say, a budget. But to put in another way, every stock market that’s open will have it live on their screens.
by Ermintrude January 20th, 2009 at 00:17
468 That damn Farmy Farm image comes to mind again, I fear for the survival of the plastic sheep if he’s morose, and those poor cows being flung across the war room at Ed Balls & Shriti as they try to bolster his spirits with readings from the NYT extolling him as the Saviour…..
by Ted January 20th, 2009 at 00:19
467 – Thanks Sally for the explanation, meanwhile I had googled the company for the info, hope I didn’t sound too flippant.

Aren’t you connected in some with the legal profession, or am I confusing you with ChrisD?
by SimonStClare January 20th, 2009 at 00:19
469. It isn’t about the polling position of his party. He couldn’t care less about them. It’s all about him.

That’s at least one difference between us and him. There are more. But I take your point.
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 00:20
I suspect Brown has depressive personality traits that mean he can have long bouts of extreme gloom and depression. He just looks that sort of character doesn’t he? And I suspect he makes those around pretty negative and gloomy most of the time, also. When he is finally voted out the nations psychiatrists are going to have a field day analzing his time in office. I suspect it time, when all the official papers are written, when the full biographies of MandyCampbell, Blair, etc… Come out, it’ll be frightning just how much of a fruitcake this is. And Labour will forever ask itself the question; How did we let this man become leader and PM, unopposed?
by GIN January 20th, 2009 at 00:20
Brown is morose? How does he think we feel?
by Witan January 20th, 2009 at 00:22
473 I am - but I can understand totally why you would confuse me with ChrisD!
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 00:22
I suspect Brown has depressive personality traits that mean he can have long bouts of extreme gloom and depression. He just looks that sort of character doesn’t he? And I suspect he makes those around him pretty negative and gloomy most of the time, also.

When he is finally voted out the nations psychiatrists are going to have a field day analzing his time in office. I suspect in time, when all the official papers are written, when the full biographies of MandyCampbell, Blair, etc… Come out, it’ll be frightning just how much of a fruitcake this man is. And Labour will forever ask itself the question; How did we let this man become leader and PM, unopposed?
by GIN January 20th, 2009 at 00:22
The question does have to be asked again, will fruitloops actually manage to make it until 2010, or will the men in white coats be summoned before then. Obviously he won’t go of his own accord, but can he hold it together for yet another 12 months, or will they have to drag him away from the good ship titanic?
by Oracle January 20th, 2009 at 00:24
475- Brown in general just looks so forlorn and despressed, from an outside perspective. Do average people actually pick up on that in Britain or only political types?
by Stars and Stripes January 20th, 2009 at 00:24
Right I’m off for the night. Been an interesting day!
by James Burdett January 20th, 2009 at 00:25
382. Rofl, he was about as much african descent as Ian Smith.
by Gaz January 20th, 2009 at 00:26
474. Yeah, I guess. He’s actually led his political party. We’ve just cheered from the sidelines.

(by the way, I’m just winding you up, don’t rise to it.)
by G January 20th, 2009 at 00:27
474 and 475. Double spot on.
by MrJones January 20th, 2009 at 00:27
471 Ermintrude, I am really happy that Barack Obama is to be President, it was a fantastic day when he won the Iowa caucuses and when he won the Presidency. It gave me hope that the USA would move on from the hatred and division that race has caused in that country. I grew up as a privileged white boy in a racist society and my God am I pleased.

Its not a “left wing conspiracy” but today this country was faced with the full horror that the credit boom, mostly since the dot.com crash, has delivered. Today the PM & Chancellor presented an unfinished and uncosted “plan” that need our news organisations, especially the public service ones to do their journalistic duty and critique and question. Instead we got Obama painting a wall while reporters simpered & giggled.

People lost jobs today, businesses shut, homes were re-possessed. Brown presented a half baked plan that will mostly not be implemented until after the clocks change, the bit that is being done added another £50bn to the deficit this year so its going to be £130bn or so, approaching 9% of GDP.

That means that for years the UK will have cuts in public services, delays in much needed investments, slower growth, higher unemployment than should be necessary. Its not a great day to be overjoyed at a foreign man becoming leader of a foreign country.
by Ted January 20th, 2009 at 00:32
479. I think he’ll make it. For no other reason than who would want to take over before a disasterous defeat? Labours last opportunity to get rid of the Clunking One was this autumn. The chance has passed and they will not let him take the hit, IMO.

480. I think people probably DO pick up on Browns gloomy persona. Maybe they don’t realise it, but I reakon the more the public see of Brown, the more he kind of weighs them down with his dark, moody, brooding personality. Most people want to be reassured and they want someone who makes them feel better in and about themselves. Theres an uneasiness with Brown that has always been there. Its one of the reasons why, up against Cameron in an election campaign, Labour stand no chance at all. They never did.
by GIN January 20th, 2009 at 00:33
What do you meanCity? said Kaka
by Icarus January 20th, 2009 at 00:34
And thats me singing off for the night, also.
by GIN January 20th, 2009 at 00:34
And thats me signing off for the night, also.
by GIN January 20th, 2009 at 00:34
483. I know. I though we came on here to be wound up aswell as to do a bit of winding?
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 00:35
Only in Brazil could a kid called ‘kaka’ make it.

Has a mendelsen ring to it don’t ya think?
by SimonStClare January 20th, 2009 at 00:37
PMQs Wenesday:

Q1 How much will the bank bail out cost? Is it a blank check?
Q2 How much will the bank bail out cost? Is it a blank check?
Q3 Ditto
Q4 Ditto
Q5 Ditto
Q6 In view of the seriousness of the situation will you hold a General Election?
by Icarus January 20th, 2009 at 00:39
475. So what if he did have depression? What the hell would that matter?

490. Oh good. You’re one of my favourite tories. You’ve got a sense of humour.
by G January 20th, 2009 at 00:43
492 - And we all know the answer, Nooooooo Noooooo, Yeeesssss, Yessss, Save the World, I mean Banks, Do nothing Party, Long term decisions, wouldn’t walk on by.

I’m surprised the bookies don’t run a book on how many times Brown will use his small selection of stock phases during the course of say PMQ’s.
by Oracle January 20th, 2009 at 00:45
494 Think it will be more on the lines of Nasty Unpatriotic Tories - offered support in September, now do-nothings that just talk down Britain.
by Ted January 20th, 2009 at 00:47
Today, went to what used to be the Furniture Show at the NEC. My section “Soft” - which used to have a hall to itself was about 6 stands NEC less than half full for an exhibition that used to almost fill it.

I still cant see why things will start to get better.
by Icarus January 20th, 2009 at 00:47
312. Ave it 09.

I consider that a great insult!

Man City << Stockport! :p
by LS January 20th, 2009 at 00:49
No Mandelson this week for PMQ’s, be interesting to see the difference, unless Gordo finds an important meeting somewhere far far away for Wednesday lunchtime.
by Oracle January 20th, 2009 at 00:49
485. “I grew up as a privileged white boy”

And you ended up a Tory? Who’d have guessed?
by G January 20th, 2009 at 00:50
87.Chrishio, thanks for highlighting this. That is one of the most chilling articles I have come across so far from a political point of view with regards the present mindset of the government, and its stewardship of the economy. This could be a defining moment in the history of this government.

151.”It is of course far more important for the Tories to pick up Labour seats than LD seats (though you wouldn’t know it from some of the contributions on here) but I don’t doubt seats in Sutton, Kingston and Richmond will come under sustained Conservative pressure.”

Stodge, that isn’t strictly true throughout the UK as I am sure you are aware. Its important for the Tories to pick up seats anywhere they can get them whether they be Labour or Libdem. In fact, the Libdems have benefited royally throughout the New Labour period while my party was on its uppers. And in my constituency, it was the Libdem that’s ousted the Conservatives, and its the Libdems we will be fighting at the GE because Labour are non existent here.

317.”Darling had been adopting the body language of the cowered and subdued spouse and it is often the battered wife who the one that snaps and sticks the knife in.”

Hmmm, I see that Clarke’s admiration of Howe’s resignation/hatchet job was being discussed earlier. You might have a point, those nearest you that you take for granted, can often do more damage to you politically than your enemies.
by ChristinaD January 20th, 2009 at 00:51
492 Why thank you.

496 Really? Been thinking of buying new settees. Thought they might be good value.
Sorry to take advantage.. but any chance of a half price sale on Duresta?
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 00:55
485. It a coincidence that this weekend saw more banks in both the US and the UK going pear-shaped and hence a major economic story - a worsening of the credit crunch - has been rapidly followed by a major political story - the USA’s first black president. You possibly feel frustrated because things are looking bad for Labour and you think this should dominate the news agenda but Obama is a good story whether you like it or not and this is crowding out the UK enonomy issue for the time being.

It also reminds us that it is an international crisis and although I accept that the situation here is very serious indeed I think there is a tendency for conservatives to be blinded by their own propaganda and say it’s all about Gordon Brown’s mistakes, and sorry, it isn’t.

US - world’s biggest economy - on the rocks. Germany - just had to nationalise a bank, as in the UK. Spain - huge unemployment. Russia - having to repeatedly devalue because of the price of oil dropping. China - major slowdown and the threat of political unrest, etc etc.

If Cam is to be credible he must eventually take all this on board and stop pretending it’s a purely domestic issue.
by Ermintrude January 20th, 2009 at 00:58
Christina - I don’t think Darling has it in him to do a Howe.
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 01:00
496: Icarus @00:47

You echo questions I have been asking for months. Where is the trade and industry that could benefit from the devaluation of sterling? How will the UK earn its living in the future? How can the massive and, seemingly, ever-growing public sector continue be financed by a shrinking private sector?

I have had no answers so far.
by HurstLlama January 20th, 2009 at 01:00
Nots usre you would need to pay as much as that! Don’t you have a John Lewis near you Sally?
by Icarus January 20th, 2009 at 01:01
Darling cut a very sad figure today.

He is Chancellor only in name - he has no real control or influence over economic policy. He was forced to make a series of difficult statements today - and take the flak in the Commons alone (Gordon being somewhere else - do we know where?)

I have no idea what Darling is like as an economist - but he looks like a broken man being told what to do.
by Simon January 20th, 2009 at 01:03
HurstLlama -as the then Deputy Governor of the bank of England, one Mervyn King said to me at meeting at Centre Parcs a few years ago. “Britain should concentrate on what it does well - Financial Services. I am afraid we should leave industries like textiles to China and other low cost economies”!
by Icarus January 20th, 2009 at 01:05
502. He doesn’t pretend its only a domestic issue. America is having a recession and it is affecting everyone. But we have made all the same mistakes - allowing growth on the back of an unsustainable housing and credit bubble and so we are not just affected by their’s but infected by our own. The fact that the Government overspent means we have nothing in the bank quite literally to help us recover from our own illness or the contagion of theirs.
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 01:08
505 No John Lewis for miles and miles….
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 01:10
503.You are probable right Sally, but then I don’t think Maggie thought Howe had it in him either. Its her face I always remember most about that speech.

Didn’t catch the whole Cable/Hammond/Cooper chat on Newsnight, but did I hear Vince comment on how both he and Osborne were kept totally in the dark about this latest government whizz to aid our banking system?
I thought that very interesting, and I don’t think Vince was too happy, he seemed to almost emphasis a them and us attitude as he looked to Hammond with Cooper across the table?

And on the 6pm ITN news tonight, they highlighted the fact that the Obama administration intends to distance it self from the UK and our *special relationship* in favour of a looser ties, and closer links to other European nations like Germany and France. The Labourgraph got criticised for highlighting that obvious and deliberate slight delivered by Hilary Clinton in her speech last week, looks like they were right.

What will that do to Brown on top of our economic problems, he has been banking on getting a political boost from a close relationship with Obama. Has he really over sold this with his own troops in recent weeks?
by ChristinaD January 20th, 2009 at 01:10
If Brown is morose will that develop into something worse and so out of No. 10.

This not impossible, as we should remember what his colleagues said about him before he got the job.

‘psychologically flawed’. Attributed to Alistair Campbell

“Allowing Gordon Brown into No 10 would be like letting Mrs Rochester out of the attic,” said Mr Field. “People would not trust Brown ……”

Frank Field told The Mail Feb 2007

“a f**king disaster as Prime Minister”

John Hutton (attributed)

{he} is a ‘deluded control freak’ with ‘psychological’ problems.

Charles Clarke

{he} has been described to the historian Peter Hennessy by an unnamed civil servant as having “the social skills of a whelk”.
Telegraph 14th March 2007

And those who worked for him or his government:

Sir Stephen Wall, who was the Prime Minister’s Europe adviser, said: “You got the very clear impression from the view of people in No 10 that they could not govern without Gordon, but they could not really govern with him either.”
Telegraph 14th March 2007

Lord Turnbull, who was also Mr Brown’s permanent secretary at the Treasury for four years, said of Mr Brown

“His view is that it is just not worth it and ‘they will get what I decide’.”

This strategy had come “at the expense of any government cohesion and any assessment of strategy”, he said.

“You can choose whether you are impressed or depressed by that, but you cannot help admire the sheer Stalinist ruthlessness of it all.”

by Witan January 20th, 2009 at 01:10
507. And a very wise man. Do you really think that textile production is in anyway feasible here??

Why not put a business plan together and see if you can get a bank to lend you some money.
by Gaz January 20th, 2009 at 01:12
507: Icarus @ 01:05

Thank you. So the answers to my questions would seem to be:

They don’t exist so there will be no gain

God knows but probably the UK can’t sustain a first-world a standard of living

The public sector is going to have shrink by a factor that will have to hit service delivery, even after the enormous waste has been cut out

I have thought it important to make sure I go to bed in good frame of mind. So a late night is on the cards.
by HurstLlama January 20th, 2009 at 01:14
510 ChrisD. Re Maggie’s face. Good point!
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 01:16
I was amazed when I flicked over to the BBC website that their headline acknowledges that the Bank Bail Out Mk II is facing criticism

It might almost seem as if they are giving in the inevitable
by Simon January 20th, 2009 at 01:17
I’m looking forward to Polly Antoinette firing the starting gun for the get Jonah McDoom race.
by MrJones January 20th, 2009 at 01:21
Night all. Sally assume you are still up waiting for PtP to tuck you in.
by Icarus January 20th, 2009 at 01:21
508. But Bush ran up a massive, horrendous budget deficit so you could say the same about the US. But for some reason the conservatives never criticise the US in this respect.

Continually stating that the government “overspent” doesn’t make it true. If the government had more money available I don’t see what difference it would make anyway in terms of conservative economic policy - Osborne has pronounced that fiscal policy is irrelevant to getting us out of the recession and apparently only monetary means are necessary or desirable.

Sorry I must nip off now but I’ll check out the comments in the morning.
by Ermintrude January 20th, 2009 at 01:22
Oh Icarus - I must be so transparent.
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 01:25
518. I have repeatedly criticised Bush’s big spending, he has brought shame to conservatives everywhere, he has made an horrendous mess of the inheritance he received from the democratic presidency and the republican controlled congress.

For the first time in a generation, the public finances were under control.
by Gaz January 20th, 2009 at 01:26
514.Sally, I remember thinking that Dennis must be one husband that couldn’t use the excuse that he didn’t know what his wife was thinking about, without it being spelt out for him.

And while Sally waits for PtP, what has happened to PfP, he and I usually enjoy a late night chat?
by ChristinaD January 20th, 2009 at 01:32
By the way, has Mike reported in after his evening at the ConHom party? I am hoping for some juicy gossip about being surrounded by all those right wing Tories.
by ChristinaD January 20th, 2009 at 01:42
Now Christina, you kow Dennis wore the trousers in that relationship = he said he ironed them too.

Mike must be late back from the Con Home Party. He must have had a good time. Either that or he drank too much to get through the night and is now sleeping it off.
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 01:48
Watching late night Parliament - seeing loads of people I haven’t seen for ages. Remember Andy Burnham?

Well it’s late and it looks like I have been stood up.
Night Christina.
by SallyC January 20th, 2009 at 01:52
523. Looking forward to hearing about the reaction to Ken’s return. Tim’s over at Conhom is nae happy that there was no return for Brady, Mercer&Co. He reckoned that would have shown generosity, unfortunately that didn’t seem to apply to Ken’s return, even though he would be bringing a lot more to the table in terms of causing the government problems.
I can’t understand why he wants Brady back so much, he didn’t really set the heather on fire last time he was in the Shadow Cabinet?
by ChristinaD January 20th, 2009 at 01:54
524.”Remember Andy Burnham?”

Oh yes…

Yep time for bed, nite Sally.
by ChristinaD January 20th, 2009 at 01:57
LADBROKES

Will Ladbrokes reopen in the morning its market about Obama’s Address Duration (+/- 23 minutes)?
by Philippe Magnan January 20th, 2009 at 03:12
Is everybody else asleep again?
Why is it that lots of people seem to indulge in this bizarre anti-social habit at theis time of day, just as I’ve arrived?

bobajob Obama - the first black guy to be elected most powerful man in the world. Total popular vote: 69,456,897.

I thought it was 69,456,884?
by JohnLoony January 20th, 2009 at 05:23
Al Fresco Obama is another Blair at worse. Another Kenedy at best - and JFK was not a good President.
Kennedy, like Blair, was a disaster for his country. Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Welfare.
The ecstasy shown for Barrak Hussein Obama by the left is true racism, simply based on the fact he is half african.

I think the ecstasy about Obama is based mainly on the fact that he is not Bush, partly on the fact that he is a Democrat, partly on the fact that he is (relatively) young and good-looking, and only minimally on the fact that he is black.
by JohnLoony January 20th, 2009 at 05:24
Don’t worry, JohnLoony, I’m here to keep you company, even if it’s from the other side of the world.

Mike’s new article for the day has usually popped up by now! Alas.
by North Sydney Correspondent January 20th, 2009 at 05:29
A few inaugurations ago (I think it was Bush 1989), the commentator on the BBC’s coverage made the point that the election of a president in November was like the election of a prime minister, and the inauguration in January was like the coronation of a king. Accordingly, everybody can feel contented and united.

Thusly, McCain and Bush and so on will be at Obama’s inauguration smiling proudly in respect and admiration for the achievement of their new president.

The ones I feel sorry for are the miserable old pedantic lawyers who have worked themselves up into a frenzy of actually believing that Obama is an impostor who was born in Kenya and is only pretending to be President and Commander-in-Chief - thus imperilling the Constitution which has ensured stability, peace and freedom worldwide for 220 years. They must have steam coming out of their ears by now.
by JohnLoony January 20th, 2009 at 05:30
Jonny Jimmy Richard, that wasn’t a mixed metaphor. It was just two whole metaphors in one sentence. “Burying your head in the messenger” or “Shooting the sand” would be (very confusing) mixed metaphors. Ask John Loony, he seems quite an expert at them!

My amazingly brilliant talent for mixing metaphors is indeed amazing; but most of them have been plagiarised from this brilliant monologue sketch which was done by Rory Bremner as the BBC’s John Cole in June 1990:

“As you join us here at the beginning of the Parliamentary recess, Mrs Thatcher, as leader of her party, is still trying to keep the ship of state on the road without going off the rails, as Michael Heseltine, back in the forefront once more, threw a spanner in the ointment with a predictability few could have foreseen. With some Conservatives unanimously divided, it’s high time the party met together behind closed doors and thrashed it out in the open; though the Prime Minister may well find at the end of the day the game’s not worth the candle it’s written on.

“For Labour, it was a new kettle of ballgames having turned full circle, and the mouth’s on the other foot. As Mr Kinnock told the House, the party’s fortunes had turned the corner, gone full circle and there could be no turning back without going ahead and reversing the previous advances, winding down the window and being sick in a layby. Leaving side issues on the backburner, Labour must look long and hard over their shoulder at the problems facing them, and come up with not just viable alternatives, but ones that might work.

“For the SLD, the road ahead is distinctly choppy, as they decide whether to jump in, grasp the nettle by the horns with both feet and milk it till the penny drops, or run it up the maypole with all flags blazing. For as sure as lemmings come home to roost, they must avoid the temptations of putting all their chickens in one basket - and only then will they know if they can reach the pot of gold at the end of the tunnel.

“In the final rinse, it all adds down to money, and neither party can risk the expense of a free election at this stage. As any politician will tell you, it’s never that simple. This is John Cole, for the Nine O’Clock News At Ten.”
by JohnLoony January 20th, 2009 at 05:31
530. Oh hello! Sydney? That’s my middle name as well.
Knowing my luck, Lord Smithson is probably lurking silently waiting for me to arrive before sneeking like a bull at a gate with a new thread. I wonder if it will be about Obama.
by JohnLoony January 20th, 2009 at 05:34
Nine hundred and eleven thousand and sixty-eighth?
Last?
Five hundred and thirty-fourth?
Or neither?

Obama? Forty-fourth?

Most threads are “No”, but I predict that the next one will be about Obama, so I reckon:
Next thread: “Yes” 1/1, “No” 2/1, Neither 4/1
by JohnLoony January 20th, 2009 at 05:40
At some point in the next year i reckon some in the Labour party will come to the conclusion that their only credible strategy is to ditch Brown and comprehensively trash and disown his record as Chancellor.
by alex January 20th, 2009 at 05:47
re 534 John - The next thread is now up
by Mike Smithson January 20th, 2009 at 06:19
38. Andrew Slaughter did the chicken run to the new Hammersmith seat a long time ago leaving Ealing Central and Acton as a clean fight between my Tory opponent and I.
by Jon Ball January 20th, 2009 at 13:01

Huge swing to the Tories with MORI

537 comments to “Huge swing to the Tories with MORI”

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