Is it worth 2/5 on a Manchester C-Charge NO?
December 5th, 2008
Who’ll win the UK’s second biggest election?
The picture is of part of Manchester tramway system which is set to be expanded provided voters in the region back a controversial Congestion Charge scheme. Voting by post is taking place at the moment and closes in a week’s time. This is the UK’s second biggest election this year with 1.94m voters involved.
The vote covers Oldham, Rochdale, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, Salford, Bolton, Bury, Manchester and Wigan – with most ballot papers already despatched. The charge will only be brought in only if people vote `yes’ to the proposals in at least seven boroughs.
A key factor in the C-Charge’s favour is that if it’s accepted then there’ll be a massive “bribe” of investment in the regional transport infrastructure - £1.5 billion from the Government’s Transport Innovation Fund (TIF) linked to £1.2 billion of borrowing to be paid back through a mix of congestion charging and public transport revenues.
So the YES campaign has a very powerful case that will be attractive to non-drivers and non-motoring commuters. The NO campaign is aimed mostly at motorists.
The congestion charge would be payable if drivers crossed an outer ring (the M60 motorway ring road) or inner ring (surrounding the city centre) on weekdays travelling in during the morning rush hour or out in the late afternoon/early evening.
Trafford, Stockport and Bury councils are publicly opposing the plan while a number of major employers and businesses calling for a ‘no’ vote. Surprisingly, given Cameron’s green rhetoric, the Tories are on the NO side while the Lib Dems and Labour are split.
A number of opinion polls have been conducted. The most recent of which shows a slender majority of voters - 51.4 per cent - in favour. The figures came from canvassing of 5,003 people between October 27 and November 20. But the research - commissioned by the Yes campaign - found the `yes’ vote winning in only six of the 10 boroughs of Greater Manchester.
A MORI poll of more than 5,000 people back in August showed 41% either that they`strongly supported’ or `tended to support’ it, while 39% were `strongly opposed’ or `tended to oppose’ it. Again, there were majorities in favour in six of the boroughs.
The only precedence for such a congestion charge referendum is Edinburgh in February 2005. Despite complaints that the question was biased, referring to the council’s “preferred” strategy, voters rejected the proposals. With a turnout of 61.7% (179,643 votes) from a potential electorate of 300,000. there were 133,678 votes against and 45,965 in favour. The rejections amounted to 74.4% of the votes cast.
Mike’s betting view. On the markets the Ladbrokes price on a YES has moved out to 7/4 while the NO price is 2/5. I think that the election, like the polling, is very much a 50-50 chance so the value bet is the 7/4 YES price which is where I’ve put my money. This is made even more the case because the market will be settled on the basis of the total of votes cast for each option irrespective of how many council areas go for it.
The Local Government Chronicle is producing daily updates on the number of ballots returned and it’s clear that the turnout is going to be high. As of Thursday there’s been a return rate of about 30%.
Alex Williams and Mike Smithson
Alex Williams in a Conservative Councillor in the Borough of Trafford and a former parliamentary candidate for the party in Bury South.
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First?
Is there anywhere we can bet on the outcome taking account of the ‘at least seven boroughs’ criterion?
O/T re the Oscars mentioned by Mike in the previous thread, you could do worse than to look at Mickey Rourke as Best Actor. I’d be interested to know if there are any odds for that anywhere yet.
I put £30 on a ‘no’ vote at 1.44. I’m pretty confident I wont be out of pocket. The No campaign seems to have much more money, more or less blanket billboard coverage for the No here in Manchester!
Mike - so if I understand this the betting market is on number of votes not on who wins (it needs 7 out of 10 boroughs to support to win IIRC)?
Blimey! That was quick Mike - I only asked for that piece half an hour ago.
FWIW, I’m voting no. Although most of my journeys are by public transport, unless you live in Didsbury or Wythenshawe the goodies you’re getting in return for the charge seem so minimal that it really isn’t worth it.
The yes campaign has been much better organised, but as with all campaigns backed by the public purse risks annoying people by seeming to hector them. The no campaign has been pretty poor IMO - almost solely targetting the relatively few drivers who will pay, rather than asknig the rest of us to consider the impact on the Greater Manchester economy or the civil liberties arguments.
re 4. But the NO campaign is nasty - straight out of the Jeremy Clarkson playbook. The way it denigrates cyclists, for instance, is shameful.
And why should a few selfish motorists hold up investment in the public transport infrastructure in the region? There are many more bus and tram users in Greater Manchester than commuting drivers.
If I had a vote I would vote YES but those turnout figures have me convince it’s a NO. High turnouts in Stockport, Bury, Trafford. Tameside is high too and on reflection that could help the YES campaign as the tram link will be popular but not enough to overhaul the militant car drivers in the other three boroughs.
7. Oh dear Mike - the sandals are showing!
Thanks Mike and Alex.
We put our first prices up about ten days ago, we were 8/11 NO and Evs YES. It’s been pretty much one-way in favour of No - most of the money has been from punters in the North West who have ben happy to take all prices down to the current 2/5.
On the face of it, it would seem to be a pretty good deal for the majority of voters. In the absence of any recent opinion polls, I’ve been a bit surprised at the confidence of the No backers, although the anti campaign are certainly much better organised and vocal. The NO Mascot was being photographed by the media in one of our Manchester shops last weeks taking the 4/7. That wasn’t you in the Shark suit was it, Alex?
4 - What? The Yes campaign seems to be far better funded and almost ubiquitous. I seem to come across far more yes posters than noes. But maybe that’s because I get public transport.
Wasn’t received wisdom, before it was put to the vote, that the public would be against? I predict a No victory.
Living in Wigan, I have a vote and voted No last week.
People aren’t stupid. When one question covers two issues, people smell a rat. It’s so blatantly trying to get the congestion charge in under cover of new transport funding.
I object to this approach, hence my vote against, despite being a supporter of congestion charging in principle and (in London, where I used to live) in practice. Charging at the margin for scarce resources - what’s not to like?
The No campaign has a huge and obvious presence, including one poster the height of an office block, around the Trafford Centre - a big shopping complex on the orbital M60.
re 6. Don’t knock Didsbury Cookie. That’s where Roger and I were brought up - thankfully at different time!
7. Erm, I thought this was meant to be a betting site? Who cares if it nasty, I am close to certain it will win!
There is no real reason the government cannot stump up the extra cash even without the congestion charge, and perhaps to beat the recession, it should.
7 - The thing is with Tameside - they’re getting their tram link whether the charge goes ahead or not (as is Chorlton). The extension to Ashton-under-Lyne is dependent on the charge, but that’s a relatively small element.
7 Mike - you sound like you are letting your heart rule your head on this.
Looking at turnout figures it does look like the Noes are turning out.
Mancunians should consider themselves fortunate - at least they get a vote
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23597584-details/I%27ll+decide+on+Heathrow%3A+Hoon+rules+out+Commons+vote+on+runway/article.do
From chatting to a few Manc friends, it looks as if the heavy-handed tactics of the Yes campaign (bribes, as you mentioned, overbearing ads, state-funded information packs that are anything but neutral) will be what swings a no.
That sort of behaviour can easily swing a broadly-supportive electorate into voting against you just out of spite. Nobody wants to be treated like an idiot.
Another concern seems to be the who largest net beneficiary would be: Stagecoach Plc.
I think they’re a hateful company, and I wouldn’t vote for any scheme that is set to enrich them any further. The fact they’re throwing an enormous amount of money behind the Yes campaign makes me trust them even less.
“Surprisingly, given Cameron’s green rhetoric, the Tories are on the NO side.”
A real life example to show how empty Cammo’s rhetoric is – an absolutely huge package of investment in public transport, giving Manchester one of the biggest rapid transit networks in Europe in exchange for a piddling peak time congestion charge.
Seems the Tories prefer the Stalinist rationing of road space by queueing, and under-investing in public transport to generate… more traffic. Pathetic stuff from the Tories and I will be hoping (but sadly not expecting) that the Yes campaign wins the seven boroughs it needs.
BTW, stupid voting system that favours the Noes, who only need four out of seven boroughs. Why not just run a popular vote across Gtr Manchester? Utterly unfair and undemocratic to have a qualified majority FTPT system
I take back what I said about the No campaign being better organised. I was mainly basing that on a man in a foam shark suit having a bet in a shop. I probably should have waited to hear what people who actually live in the area had to say.
Thanks to shadsy for providing yet another innovative political betting market.
I haven’t a clue on this one so I won’t be betting unless someone here is able to persuade me that there is value to be had.
20. Probably because the Cons are getting reamed in Cambridgshire for even raising the topic of a congestion charge in Cambridge.
Suprisingly the Lib Dems are against the charge….
11 - just down the road from me in Withington, Mike. And I might think differently about the charge if I was settled in Didsbury - it’s one of the few places to potentially see a big benefit. But we in Withington will continue to struggle glumly on the buses up Wilmslow Road and will be pretty much unaffected.
Graham Stringer wrote a long and fairly interesting letter to the MEN acouple of days ago, pointing out that far more people could benefit far more cheaply by just re-regulating the buses. Buses here are ludicrously expensive, and unless you’re on the minimum wage the charge isn’t going to change that.
7. Great post. See mine at 12.
@Bobajob:
It’s fundamentally dishonest to pretend the that new investment in trams and the congestion charge *have* to be tied together like this.
Doing it this way looks like nothing more than a simple attempt at blackmail. One that, by all accounts, isn’t going to work. The electorate do not like being treated as fools.
19 Good point about the info packs. Many have come through our door. A typical brochure has umpteen pages of lovely new bus routes and general happiness, and buried on page 28 is the congestion charge. Of course, the real issue (the C-charge) comes out in the end, and people feel like they’re being patronised at their own expense.
24. Your point about re-regulating buses is sound. The fact that only London has regulated buses is a massive disadvantage for other cities. Deregulation has been a disaster. There was soon data out last wek that showed bus use had fallen dramatically everywhere in the last decade or so - except in London where it has risen by 51 per cent or something massive like that.
20 Why should the package be based on imposition of a congestion charge? Sticks or carrots? Provide the infrastructure, price it competitively, deliver a good service, give people comfort its secure and safe (no steaming, no graffitti, no gangs of youths hanging round) people will change their habits.
20 - Bobajob “giving Manchester one of the biggest rapid transit networks in Europe in exchange for a piddling peak time congestion charge” - no it won’t - it won’t compare with anywhere in Germany; it won’t even compare with Glasgow, and it certainly won’t compare with London. What we’re being offered is pretty skinny, really - basically just two extra tramlines. Which would be nice, but hardly revolutionary, and 95% of Mancs will never use them.
19 - Martin - “From chatting to a few Manc friends, it looks as if the heavy-handed tactics of the Yes campaign (bribes, as you mentioned, overbearing ads, state-funded information packs that are anything but neutral) will be what swings a no.
That sort of behaviour can easily swing a broadly-supportive electorate into voting against you just out of spite. Nobody wants to be treated like an idiot.” - I must admit, although I think I’m voting No frmo a rational point of view, emotionally I started out pretty neutral, and these ads have swung me decisively onto the No side.
Can’t they buy Boris’s bendy buses?
26. You need to a carrot and a stick Martin. Anyway, the truth is that there is no plan B, so either Mancs take the whole lot or nowt. And the voting system is a joke. An absolute sop to the Noes. I find it astounding that it was ever allowed.
What happens if the Yeses win a popular vote? It will be the most pyrric of victories for the Noes.
31. Being from Nottingham I know what bendy buses are like. They were trialled on busy routes for a year or two but they kept getting into crashes, then they were moved to less busy routes and now are being got rid of all together.
O/T US payrolls dropped more than 500,000 in November - this is looking very, very ugly indeed now. I fell sorry for Obama, taking over at this point in time (honestly) - the Republicans can be glad they lost.
…but then I am unrepresentatively irritable about being patronised at my own expense. Hence my daily shouting matches with BBC breakfast news until my girlfriend kindly agreed to watch sky insstead.
30. And more buses. And refurbished local trains. Although the buses need regulating too.
“Which would be nice, but hardly revolutionary, and 95% of Mancs will never use them.”
Nonsense – show me some evidence for that? 95 per cent of Mancs will never use them??? I’d guess more than 5 per cent *already* use what you have got!
And yes, it will be one of the biggest rapid transit networks in Europe, eclipsing many German cities. It’s stunning how this message has not got through.
US non-farm payrolls drop 533,000 - way off the scale, worst forecast had been 470,000, consensus was 330,000
34. Payrolls are very important - of all the economic stats announced they contain the most new information. That is a very nasty number.
37, snap
33. Nottingham has the tram system costing the taxpayer millions of pounds of course. We only get buses every 2 hours round here, thank the lord for a driving licence.
29. Roads are a scarce resource. Therefore we should vary the price to control demand. You would clearly prefer to ration them buy queueing. Stalin would have been proud of that policy.
In general people vote against paying money for anything, even if they approve in principle, unless it’s subsumed in a regional or national pot. So the odds look plausible.
As a friend of Peter Hain’s I’m of course delighted with the CPS decision, and hope he’s able to resume office soon. I expect lots will disagree, but one point we might agree on: the process is incredibly slow, and in this case took out a senior politician for a year. Let’s hope that Damian Green doesn’t have to wait a year to find out if he’s charged with anything or completely cleared.
I had a minor example of this a few years ago. After I’d criticised Ann Winterton for making a joke at the expense of the dead cockle-pickers, a small right-wing group retaliated by alleging to the police that a satire I’d published about the Taliban (depicting what British Taliban TV would be like - Xena Warrior Housewife, etc.) infringed the Race Relations Act (presumably by inciting contempt of Taliban supporters, who are after all Afghans). Notts CPS sat on it for about 8 months before getting round to saying “no”. My understanding is that this wasn’t because they were brooding on it, weighing up opinions, etc. - just that it was low priority. I just shrugged and got on with life since I always thought it was just mischievous stuff that wouldn’t go anywhere, but it was tiresome. The point is not that people aren’t entitled to make allegations, but that the process should be brisker.
32 - the point is that Greater Manchester as a whole has no authority, and hasn’t since 1986. The suburbs got rather irritated with Grand Projects for the Greater Good and remain suspicious of being corralled into place by Manchester. If the voting system hadn’t been done this way then Stockport and Trafford could simply have decided not to implement it and the scheme would have been a farce.
37. I wonder if that will increase the chances of an auto bailout ?
re 17 Explain to me Ted how the turnout figures indicate that it is going one way. That has no logic.
36. I live in Manchester, and no way will the improvements bring us up to German levels. Bremen’s slogan is even ‘city of trams..’
41, I’m not sure allowing people who pay road tax to use roads counts as Stalinist.
42, Hain wasn’t cleared. Nobody found him innocent. They just didn’t prosecute.
47. We have a rationing system in health care that works very well, don’t we? Indeed I hear from time to time that it is the ‘envy of the world’.
10. “On the face of it, it would seem to be a pretty good deal for the majority of voters. ”
Yup. But the ignorati will no doubt shout down. Ration roads by queueing and increase demand for those queues by failing to invest in alternatives. The “Green” policies of today’s Tories.
@Nick Palmer:
Do you have any idea why it took the CPS so long to come to a decision about whether to bring a case?
50, alternatives like a high speed rail link between north and south?
48. With the email Guido has a copy of it is not obvious how the CPS came to their conclusion.
http://www.order-order.com/2008/12/hain-cps-statement-in-full.html
A few years ago (when money flowed freely) S. Yorks was waiting for the Sheffield Supertram system to be extended.
Trials were carried out (afaik these trials were successful).
S.Yorks is still waiting.
53, I’m glad nobody’s suggested it’s political corruption and/or backhanders. Because that would be an appalling thing to say.
The Times reported last week that Manchester was being bullied.
“Geoff Hoon, the Transport Secretary, said funding for new tram lines, extra buses and trains would be cancelled unless a majority of Greater Manchester’s 1.8 million population voted “yes” in next month’s road pricing referendum.”
Is there really to political will to reopen railway lines, and improve bus services, Brown and Co talk about Keynesian policies would be used to increase public spending, but Net Work Rail still won’t restore lines, or double up tracks to improve capacity.
36 - I mean 95% will never use the two lines to Didsbury and Withington. Typically the only people who use commuter lines like these are people who live up to half a mile from the tram stop. Which is going to be about 125000 people - around 5% of the population of Greater Manchester.
Look, I LIKE the trams - but even combined with the local rail services they’re not a big comprehensive rail network like London has - or Munich, or Paris, or Berlin, or Amsterdam, or Barcelona, or even Glasgow.
@Morris Dancer:
Since we live in a country where people are theoretically innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, I’d say the two amount to the same thing.
46. I wish I could dig out the data – but I can assure you my contention is correct. Will try to dig out the data and post it up here today.
58, splitting hairs, but he can’t be cleared of something he isn’t put on trial for.
Maybe I’ve been spending too much time being indoctrinated about how we’re all Not Yet Guilty and need to have barcodes stamped on our foreheads so the ThoughtPolice can scan our brains and take our DNA as they wish.
so, Bobajob, if the government bribe is big enough it is silly to reject it even if you disagree with the proposals?
The is Nulabour thinking alright. Throw enough money about and the voters will flock to you.
Well good on these voters if they reject the siren of Nulabour thro
55. Or that the CPS is itself a politicised organisation, that will never institute proceedings against a Labour figure.
43. Yes – that says more about Manchester’s ludicrous local government structure than anything else. Ludicrous system, deeply unfair voting mechanism. One flows from the other.
61 Sorry, fat finger syndrome.
The post should say, so, Bobajob, if the government bribe is big enough it is silly to reject it even if you disagree with the proposals?
That is Nulabour thinking alright. Throw enough money about and the voters will flock to you.
Well good on these voters if they reject the siren of Nulabour throwing taxpayers’ borrowings about.
Bobajob it is an unfair system because Labour do not control it, and the voting system is flawed because Nulabour will not win?
@Bobajob,
Has there ever been any serious suggestion of having a Greater Manchester Authority run by a Mayor, based on the London model?
47. Well you are paying a single fee and then use roads as much as you like. Roads should be priced in such a way that reflects demand for them. Otherwise we just end up with congestion, which costs everybody. We need to face facts on urban road pricing – it’s a good idea, and the money should be used to go into public rapid transit.
@Witan
The situation in Greater Manchester is as it was in London before the GLA. I think Greater London has benefitted substantially from having a single strategic focus. Couldn’t Greater Manchester do with the same?
What is the attraction between the left and bendy buses?!
Bendy buses are the ID cards of public transport — unsafe, expensive, unpopular and unworkable.
@Runnymede:
That is a serious allegation. The kind of allegation that one would expect you’d have some kind of evidence to back it up.
However much you’d like Hain to be guilty is irrelevant. The CPS has to consider the likelihood of obtaining a conviction.
66. There has indeed – and it is very much what should happen, IMO. The current system is utterly ludicrous. You have 10 boroughs, whose individual leaders are selected by secret caucus. These largely faceless “leaders” then sit on a voluntary metropolitan board of leaders, where they argue for a while and try to cover their own arbitrarily defined slice of the city area.
Then they come up with silly compromises like the c-charge poll, whereby even if 60 per cent of Mancs vote for it (which, admittedly, they won’t, but it’s an example) won’t go through unless seven out of ten boroughs separately vote yes. I could almost understand simple first past the post, but qualified majority is totally undemocratic.
GM needs a mayor to make strategic decision a la London. But the local councils always shout it down and claim they can do things through partnership working. That’s utter nonsense
– London makes decisions much quicker thanks to Boris and, in the past, Ken, and to me it is amazing that the self-preserving, often low calibre, borough leaders have been allowed to shout down what would be a great idea for Manchester (and give us pbers another interesting race to bet on too).
Guido demonstrates why the CPS has fallen down on the job in regard Hain’s deputy leadership campaign donations.
The argument on Hain himself just about holds water, but leave the CPS’ feet rather damp, but letting of the election team and its master leaves them looking rather as weak as a drowning kitten. A less charitable view might be that Labour MPs are never held to account.
There is that wonderful thing a narrative building here on donations, think tanks, leaks and criminalising opposition MPs activities which is going to culminate in a nastiness fairly soon, especially if no charges are brought in the Abrahams case.
65. Eh? Tell me how the Noes only needing four boroughs and the Yeses needing seven is in any way democratic. And it’s nothing to do with Labour per se as many Labour MPs, councillors are also on the No side. I’m very keen to hear how you think this utterly ludicrous voting model is democratic, regardless of your view on the policy being voted on.
70. I’m not alleging anything. Just adding to Morris’s comment at 55. It would be appalling if the CPS decision was due to corruption, politicisation, or backhanders.
67
Agree anbout road pricing
And at the same time remove VED and fuel pricing.
The motorist feels - correctly he is an easy target for taxation.. He IS>
No-one who is a motorist will accept more taxes to pay for something which as a motorist he/she is already paying for 10 times over - and not getting.
The argument is stupid.
Raise council taxes of everyone in Manchester to pay it.
68 etc. http://www.centreforcities.org/index.php?id=255
This was one such proposal, although many have suggested it.
@Witan
The argument for why a case against Hain seems unlikely to prevail seems pretty sound from their decision. As he was not a signatory on the account, there’s substantial doubt about whether it was his responsibility to report it to the Electoral Commission at all.
75. Yes - agree. That’s why the purist would argue that we need national road pricing as part of a wider package than canned VED and road tax, rather than doing it on a city by city basis in London and Manchester.
Still, I think it’s better to do that than wait until some politician has the good sense and courage to take road pricing on on a national basis.
@Bobajob:
No, is of course the Status Quo position. It’s not unreasonable to expect the position that is against the Status Quo to have the higher burden of achievement.
70, 74, 77 - Looking at the CPS statement (link at 53), it’s pretty clear that this was muddle rather than anything else. The donations themselves were, if I understand correctly, perfectly legal. So a slap on the wrist for Peter Hain, but hardly a case that should come to a criminal court.
Bobajob my suspicions are aroused by your rather constant attachment to Labour spin lines - I thought you were going to drive the PB server to destruction with the anti-Osborne and pro-devaluation messages which in your previous incarnation spattered many a thread.
Your first post on this issue was an attack on Cameron. You saw the money being dangled in front of the voters as the key reason not to reject this proposal.
You said, ” A real life example to show how empty Cammo’s rhetoric is – an absolutely huge package of investment in public transport, giving Manchester one of the biggest rapid transit networks in Europe in exchange for a piddling peak time congestion charge.”
It’s democratic because it accepts that the different boroughs are different places with different needs. So it reduces the likelihood of the C Charge being imposed on boroughs that don’t want it - unless the vote in favour is overwhelming.
If it was purely on popular vote, you could have an undemocratic vote where say a group of central boroughs voted for it and imposed it on outer boroughs who voted against. Especially if inner boroughs would get the greater benefit from public transport, and the outer boroughs are more likely to drive, this could be seen as unfair. (Not sure if Greater Manchester splits into inner and outer like this, but it’s an illustration).
It is often the case that you need a supermajority to make significant change, especially if it’s something that won’t easily be changed back. Changes to constitutions, for example.
Packaging it with the spending package does seem like a bribe, although presumably there always would have been a revenue effect from voting yes, as the income from the scheme will presumably be spent on public transport.
42 Nick P - You’re right about the time taken. From the summary given in the CPS statement, it looks like it could have been settled in a couple of weeks. It’s not complicated, by the sound of it.
[I'll resist making the obvious partisan point!]
80. I wonder what the result in the Abrahams case will be? Anyone care to propose odds on charges being laid?
80. Worth having a look at this article
http://timesonline.typepad.com/politics/2008/12/are-the-police.html
72, Abrahams will be quietly dropped, I imagine.
And yes, runnymede, that would be an appalling comment. Someone who alleged that would probably have their home(s) ransacked by a score of anti-terrorist police.
Abrahams is different to Hain though because the PM himself said it was illegal. Whoops.
Martin C Hain’s campaign should have reported it as the CPS itself admits as it meets the definition of a body which should do so. But the CPS then ducks the issue by saying they cannot find evidence to define who is responsible.
Guido points out that there is an email and press interview which does precisely this. So did the CPS and police bother to look very closely at the Labour MPs campaign and funding body? There are bank accounts and signatories, too.
What suspicions? I happen to believe it is a great package. That’s all. If you are accusing me of being a Labour astroturfer, well… it won’t be the first time.
But I’m just an ordinary Joe. I hate a lot of Labour policies. But the Manchester C-Charge package is an excellent package, in exchange for a piddling peak time charge that most people will never pay. Plus, I actually think they should have a charge – i.e. I’d rather have the package with the charge, than without it – (were the latter possible, which it is not) because I believe strongly in road pricing.
Again, I doubt that is a popular view. But I have thought it through, and my view it remains.
Not so long ago, Thatcherite Tories would have seen a congestion charge as the correct way of rationing scarce resources.
I’m a fairly keen driver - I used to own a TVR and I’m tossing up whether to go for a TVR or a 911 for my next one. However I have never understood the keenness of some drivers to subject themselves of hours of pointless tedium in traffic jams on the way to and from work. It’s much more civilised IMO to hop on a train, bus or tram and read the paper on the way to work - or prepare for your 8.30 meeting. Despite the fact I’m generally to the right of those present, I accept that big cities do seem to need some form of corporate socialism to keep them functioning and provide the infrastructure to make living in them pleasant - although it would obviously be much better if said cities were responsible for raising and spending money themselves, as I believe it would improve resource allocation.
@Witan
As I see it, the important point is that they can’t find *any* evidence that it was Hain’s responsibility.
The £ is perilously close to its all time euro low. And it’s a magnificent $1.46 against the dollar.
82. You are right that the scheme does create revenue.
But I don;t take your argument about it being democratic – you might as well say London’s mayoralty is undemocratic because Boris and Ken support C-Charging (albeit on different geographical scales) when many people, particularly in the outer boroughs, probably don’t.
We didn’t need a supermajority to get the C-Charge in – in fact, we didn’t even need a referendum. Just one mayor who launched it, and a second who retained it.
91, bloody Osborne!
@Bobajob:
I don’t think it’s a bad package. With a slightly less ham-fisted campaign this could have been easily sold to the electorate.
The problem is, the ‘yes’ campaign have tried to use bribery, blackmail, propaganda and deceit to sell it, and appear to have swung opinion firmly against it. Which is a shame, because Manchester needs the investment.
The Yes campaign have only themselves to blame.
I can’t help thinking that there could and should have been a simpler way of doing all of this.
89. Great post. Yes – GM’s system should have a mayor who can raise his own finance. See that article I posted earlier.
85, 87 - OK, I’ll make one of the several obvious partisan points.
This is just badly drafted law. Like so much Labour legislation, it is both over-draconian and vague - a toxic combination. A bit more scrutiny in Parliament, and a bit less enthusiasm for creating zillions of new criminal offences, would have been a better approach.
Look, on any sane view, Peter Hain is not a criminal. At worst, he made a technical error on declarations; there was no criminal intent, he wasn’t hiding anything, no-one could care less how much he raised (it was spectacularly ineffectual anyway!).
Unfortunately, common-sense has gone out of the window under Labour.
91. More from Fraser Nelson
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3067191/taking-a-pounding.thtml
@Bobajob:
“We didn’t need a supermajority to get the C-Charge in – in fact, we didn’t even need a referendum. Just one mayor who launched it, and a second who retained it.”
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Greater Manchester is being flummoxed by its own lack of a proper strategic planning layer.
94. Bribery? If you mean that there’s no investment without c-charge, then that’s a) the truth (the DfT sets the rules) and b) a good thing - IMHO - as we need to price out congestion.
As for an easier way, oh yes – have a mayoral system and get the mayor to impose it rather than having a silly, undemocratic and expensive referendum on a public transport package!
Thanks to Martin Coxall and Richard Nabavi for their fair-minded comments. I’ve asked Peter from time to time if he knew what was happening and why it was taking so long, but as in my mini-case he’d heard nothing whatever - it wasn’t that anyone was being re-interviewed or fresh papers examined, so far as he knew.
In general, I’d like to think that if someone cocks up a required return, discovers the error, and immediately reports it, it would be unusual in all walks of life for prosecution to follow, and very unusual to spend a year reflecting on it.
98. Yes – see my post at 99! It’s unbelievable that local leaders have been able to shout down a GM mayoralty. But sadly, our Government is weak. And I also suspect that Labour politicians fear that if they did create a mayoralty in GM, they would give the Tories a chance of winning it – Cameron should make it a policy proposal IMO.
101 - A conservative mayor in GM? Don’t make me laugh.
Hain should retroactively arrest himself, under Labour’s overgenerous anti-terror legislation, for the activities of his youth.
100. Hmmm just how many inaccuracies are there in that second ppgh?
99 It is bribery if the government attempts to buy votes by only being prepared to spend money if the vote goes a certain way. Government has no business persuading people how to vote, in any case.
It might be that some of the expenditure isn’t appropriate without the C-Charge - but they could always spend the same amount on slightly different things.
I am keen on long term government - the next government should start a long term process of cutting local government funding, and income tax, and requiring local authorities to raise it themselves. Then people will be voting on how their own money is to be spent.
96 If they had decided to prosecute, I think they would have had difficulty proving intent as well (unless this is one of those “specific performance” offences that Harriet and Jacqui are so keen on).
@Nick Palmer:
So, it’s just excessive bureaucracy at the CPS? Typical.
You would have thought that the kind of ruling they made they could and should have made within days.
Saying Hain went running to the EC as soon as he found out is probably true - he found out when Guido posted this.
http://www.order-order.com/2007/12/hain-fundraiser-small-problem-with.html
More Shannongash just gone out on Sky News:
“There was immense public sympathy for Karen when news of the apparent
abduction broke. But that has now changed. Outside the house where
Shannon once lived, someone has strung up a teddy bear with a nail in
its heart.”
Somebody in prison will hand her the Black Spot.
Now that innocent Hain won’t be prosecuted, perhaps Labour could turn its attention to the DNA of all those innocent people the police or CPS similarly decided not to prosecute…
7 Mike what is selfish is that that North Bury and Radcliffe North get nothing as per usual. I have been campaigning for a no vote I think most of Radcliffe North will be voting no.
The most vunerable in Greater Manchester will suffer, why should those on a low wage who would have to travel into Manchester have to pay, I know of two people that work on less than £15,000 if they went on the proposed ‘improvements in Bury’ they would be travelling for 2 hours to get to work, either one tram ride then two busses or four bus journeys. Perhaps the GMPTE should be spending their money properly instead of spending £1/4 of million sponsoring the cow parade in 2004 for instance.
As I said in the council chamber this is our money how dare Labour ‘loan’ us the money, the money was already earmarked by the Tories before 1997 but Labour cancelled it, is this what we get for being such a ’safe’ Labour stronghold.
108 - That’s a point, Horse. Presumably including Peter Hain’s.
107. Can’t be good for Shannon to have her photo repeatedly used in the press together with her mother being described as ‘pure evil’.
108 Yes, I expect they’re busy destroying it today. Nick P, when can we expect the announcement?
Retail week:
“Woolworths’ administrator Deloitte has made 450 head office and support staff at the retailer redundant.”
25,000 to be gone in January unless a buyer can be found (most unlikely). Shame Woolies weren’t a bank.
111 On the contrary, she might be feeling all sorts of guilt about this, psychology is a strange thing. If she sees her mother described as “pure evil” it might help her make a clean emotional break.
@Gabble:
It certainly doesn’t help that she does have a face to which the word ‘evil’ seems to naturally attach itself.
Not, I assume, that you’d describe her actions as those of a kind, loving mother.
[56] - “Is there really to political will to reopen railway lines, and improve bus services, Brown and Co talk about Keynesian policies would be used to increase public spending, but Net Work Rail still won’t restore lines, or double up tracks to improve capacity.”
This is the big issue. Generally cars account for 80% of all journeys, though this is lower for long distance. If you want to significantly reduce this number it implies that you have to at least double the capacity of the public transport infrastructure.
Personally I think that is worth doing, but it’s a big job. Congestion charging is an irrelevant distraction to doing that job, as it will never raise the sums of money necessary for it. You could probably claim that the government already raises enough money from petrol duty to pay for this investment. However, spending that money on transport means you need to cut spending or raise taxes elsewhere.
101 Its a price of localism. Greater Manchester was broken into 10 Boroughs, each has its own local Government. The costs of the loan will be charged back to each Boroughs ratepayers, so each Borough needs their ratepayers to agree. An approx two thirds majority to over-ride local autonomy seems fair enough to me.
114. Phil C. - I’m speechless!
115. Martin Coxall - She’s clearly unfit to care for her children but she’s a long way from being ‘pure evil’.
Who said New Labour were not democratic………
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23597584-details/I%27ll+decide+on+Heathrow%3A+Hoon+rules+out+Commons+vote+on+runway/article.do
118 Obviously not, or you wouldn’t have been able to make your second point.
111:
agree with Gabble (again - must see my GP…)
No sympathy for the repulsive Mrs Matthews, but “pure evil” was a bit over the top.
This kind of language “grade inflation” is a bit too common these days. How would we describe Baby P’s tormentors then, who were surely far worse than this woman, who was “only” selfish, greedy, naive, thoughtless and uncaring, albeit on a grand scale?
121 I suspect the policeman who dealt with her might have seen a side of her that isn’t reflected in the only slightly evil crimes she’s been convicted of.
118. In have some sympathy - ‘pure evil’ is hyperbole. But what is the point of raising this on this site?
“She’s clearly unfit to care for her children but she’s a long way from being ‘pure evil’.”
Crocodile tears from a sycophantic NuLab supporter of ID cards and indefinite detention.
122. Can one really be said to be ’slightly evil’????
123 Sorry, I rose to the bait. But I did shock Gabble!
“over-ride local autonomy”
Is having a London mayor overiding local autonomy? He is democratically elected to make decisions on behalf of all of London, on miles bigger turnouts than they record in Manchester.
Manchester is governed by a host of low calibre politicians from councils whose leader is decided by secret caucus, not elected.
If that’s what constitutes localism and local autonomy, localism is a complete joke.
125. About as accurately as a description of ’slightly pregnant’.
128 But you can say “less evil” and “more evil”, in fact “worse” is traditionally seen as the comparative of “evil”, as well as of “bad”. So I don’t see why slight evilness isn’t possible.
121 can’t say I agree - the woman allowed her own child to be drugged and tethered for the hope of £££.
Baby P’s tormentors are scum, she is scum, they are all evil, pure or otherwise
127 But London has some form of centralised government, Greater Manchester doesn’t. As Ted said, this mechanism seems a not unreasonable one for the circumstances.
Hyperbole? What, like Tony Blair’s “Al-Qaida is an existential threat to Western civilisation”, you mean?
132. Yes, insofar as it is equally as ludicrous as Manchester’s local government system itself!
[129] - Is it useful to talk about people being “slightly evil”?
It might be technically accurate, but it strikes me as pointless. At some point someone is evil enough to be considered evil and then they have to be stopped. The only question is then how.
It’s similar to all the [WARNING Godwin approaching] futile arguments about whether Stalin was worse than Hitler. It’s an irrelevant distinction, the more important being that the Germans were parked in France bombing London.
Hyperbole from the papers is a given anyway.
I agree with Gabble.
“Pure evil” implies evil intent, deceit and eath at the ned,
Clearly that was not the case here.
Pure evil is lying about the causes for war, sending your troops in underarmed and thus ensuring a number of avoidable deaths ensue - as a DIRECT result of policy not to arm them properly.
109 - Ha, pbcs Admiral of the Fleet returns for a fleeting nautical raid, but he obviously lurks from below deck. Tust the Parliamentary campaign is going well and yours will another we can notch up as “Conservative gain”
136 death at the end …not…. eath at the ned¬
[135] - 129 became 130 by “Phil C”
(oops Stuart or is it Stewart at 110)
131. I wouldn’t argue with the description ’scum’ in this context. Although I do wonder what the relevance of this is to politics, or betting.
@Madasafish
“Eath at the ned”?
Yeah, I get that all the time.
130. Look to its opposite, which would IMO be ’saintly’. Can you have ’slightly saintly’? Doubt it, it’s an absolute - and so should be its opposite.
141 true enough, a dark cloud on an otherwise normal winter’s day.
Next Chapter!
@Runnymede:
The emergence of a new British underclass is a problem of manifest political importance.
“Thoughts or acts that are cruel, unjust or selfish”
Surely the more such acts one commits, the more evil one is?
142 You too? The GP told me mine was the most interesting he has ever examined.
144, how about: who’ll lose their job over the Green business?
I think the Serjeant is a near cert to go.
Speaker? No. I think he’ll stay.
Likewise Jackboots, unless some godlike civil servant leaks proof she knew.
Green himself? Highly unlikely.
[145] - I don’t think Matthews stands as an emblem of such an underclass. When Shannon went missing the local community rallied round in an attempt to find her - this was very admirable and surely points to some of the rhetoric about an “underclass” being hyperbole.
It’s one of the negative consequences of this that they were cheated by Matthews, and perhaps will be less trusting in the future.
148. Despite my indifference to this story, I must say I do like the nickname Jacquiboots I think it’s rather clever and wonder if someone on here coined it?
I agree with Gabble about the “pure evil” thing. Police officers should just get on with collecting evidence and presenting it to the courts in an efficient manner. It’s not their job to look into people’s souls and declare them rotten. That policeman on Panorama who wittered on about ‘pitying less and judging more’ was perfectly entitled to his opinion, but he seemed to be labouring under the delusion that the fact he was wearing a uniform meant that his opinion counted for far more than anyone else’s.
148 Yes the patsy at arms is a goner, I think Martin will stay as the Tories are not pushing for him to go. Green is safe as there is way too much invested in him for him to go, and he has imo done nothing wrong from details I have seen.
Foul behemoth Smith, the Hagzilla of Hagzilla, the promiser of Identity Papers, the promulgator of detention without charge….. God I hope so. Her, and her ridiculous boss, getting on with the job since 1997, the bringer of diminishing returns, recession architect, the destroyer of parliamentary democracy, the Fallen One.
Bobajob
The C-Charge is a tax on jobs in a recession. I would most certainly not relocate to Manchester if it is adopted - and I come from that part of the world.
If they want to do it to change behaviour then it will, but it will not raise money, like the London C-Charge. The administration costs for collection and monitoring are approximately the amount collected.
Yet another taxation on hard work. Labour is intent on making us better off sitting on arses at home.
145. I wonder if this story doesn’t tell us more about the incredibly unhealthy way the media rejoices in these stories and exploits them for its own financial benefit, rather than anything else.
@Timothy
I do wonder if that’s only because it was “on the telly”. Certainly a lot of the participants seemed to be enjoying their moment a little too much.
152. How do you fancy Smith to be replaced by Hain?
150. Such a pity that the Mail this morning chickened out of describing her face as being ‘like a smacked bum’ and substituted ‘buttocks’ instead. Have they no reverence for traditional northern descriptive vocabulary?
135 (TLZ) it’s a bit strange this quasi-serious argument about the indivisibility of evil seems to have been started by my fairly flippant description of Karen Matthews as slightly evil.
But your argument would be similar to mine for not ending compulsory life sentences for murder. I think that imprisonment for life should be the minimum sentence for premeditated killing. Yes some murders are more serious than others, but as there is no more severe punishment available to the courts then we’ll just have to put up with life imprisonment for those murderers.
151. Tend to agree - there was an embarassing attempt at psychological/sociological analysis of this case by a plod on the radio this morning. Toe-curling stuff.
@b.
What about “face like a bulldog chewing a wasp”?
156 Hain for Smith? Clarke more likely imo.
156 yes, I like that move - an anti_apartheid campaigner taking up the mantel of reducing our civil liberties and forcing us to carry Labour’s Identity Papers. Deliciously ironic.
161, so, Hain to be Home Secretary just as soon as Blair and Brown get divorced so they can become civil partners then?
160 Peter Beardsley chewing a wasp, a bag of roofers nails, a scrubbed Badgers arse, a Bulldog licking the p!ss off stinging nettles etc etc
All good
160. Even better ‘a smile like a fox chewing sh1t out of a wire brush’.
John O well we hope it will.
It is Stuart
I’ll add that the Congestion charge is 87km2 the biggest in the world, there proposing to include the whole of greater manchester in the future. The London charge zone is only 8km2. Labour stronghold, just another excuse for Labour throwing another tax on the weakest in the Suburbs.
When it comes to pandering to the motorist, “Vote Blue Go Green” goes straight out the window:
- Scrapping the London C-charge western extension
- Opposing the Manchester C-charge
- Opposing the west London tram (Uxbridge to Shepards Bush)
89 Phil C.
From your account you enjoy driving for the pleasue of driving per se- you seek to drive good, fast cars on open roads. That is in itself as a good a hobby as anything. I on the other hand dont actually enjoy driving but instead abhor being forced to share a confined space with my smelly, noisy and sometimes visually distasteful fellow citizens every morning and evening. By driving I can cocoon myself in my car (in my case an ancient Fiat)and listen to the today programme as I drive to work while regulating the temperature of my environment and not listening in to the vacous mobile telephone conversations of assorted school children.
My journey incidentally takes about the same amount of time by car as by public transport, once waiting for the bus and the interchange with the underground is taekn into account. The introduction of the Western extension to the congestion charge forced me off the road but now I will, thankfully, return following Boris’s ablition of said charge.
I sound profoundly misanthropic in this post, while in fact I’m not, I just don’t like the collectivist nature of public transport.
166 That sounds fairly dumb. Self evidently, a C-Charge should only apply to the most congested part(s) of an area. Otherwise, once you’ve taken little Johnny to school round the corner, you have an incentive to drive into the congested centre at no additional cost.
But vote Blue get Taxes doesn’t have the same ring to it!
167. Green is the new beige. To be widely accepted it’ll have to be cheap.
148.Reid v Smith: War of the home secretaries as Government calls in the detectives
“Jacqui Smith was sensationally knifed by her predecessor John Reid yesterday as it emerged that the Government has called in detectives for a Whitehall-wide hunt for whistleblowers.
The Home Secretary came under extraordinary attack from Mr Reid for not asking the police questions about their investigation leading up to the arrest and detention of Damian Green. ‘I have to say I’m surprised you weren’t informed that your opposite number, effectively, was about to be arrested,’ he told Miss Smith.
‘I cannot think that if I had been told this had been done, after the event, I would have remained as placid as you have in these circumstances.’
Mr Reid, who has remained largely silent since leaving the Home Office when Gordon Brown became Prime Minister, added: ‘I would have wanted to have been informed and to have expressed a view on it.’”
But this is where it gets even more messy!
“But an unrepentant Miss Smith indicated that more police investigations into alleged leaks are under way.
Replying to a question from former Tory Cabinet minister John Redwood about a stream of highly sensitive leaks from the Treasury, she said: ‘There have been other situations where the police have been invited to investigate by the Cabinet Office.’
Senior Home Office sources later confirmed that other police probes had been launched. ‘I don’t know which other departments but there are other police inquiries going on about other moles,’ said one.
Ministers are suspicious that a source in either the Treasury or Revenue & Customs is passing information to the Tories.”
Now that is political with a capital C, and bringing the police in this way means the government are going after the recipient of the leaks. What is going to happen, will they be prepared to see a several opposition MP’s being arrested and treated in the way Damian Green was last week? Will Jacqui Smith be able to sit back and spout about the independence of the Police without any responsibility for instigating all of this?
This really is a bad day for politics and Westminster!
ONE QUESTION - will these police investigations be solely aimed at any leaks which have passed onto opposition MP’s and then gone onto embarrass THIS government?
WILL ANY OF THESE INVESTIGATIONS INVOLVE “HELPFUL” LEAKS TO JOURNALISTS FROM INSIDE THE GOVERNMENT, WITH THE SOLE AIM OF HELPING THE GOVERNMENT POLITICALLY?
There was an excellent discussion about this situation on This Week last night, worth watching again if you love Parliamentary democracy and the idea that the HoC’s is there to hold the government of the day to account. And before anyone comes back whinging about partisan moaning from a Tory, just remember, this really is important who ever is in government. And I for one would be horrified if a Conservative government was no longer accountable to anyone too.
If ever you needed an example of how unfit Brown was to be PM of this country, this is it!
171, aye, I saw that. David Starkey could do with learning to listen a bit more, but he did make good points.
153. The first sentence shows how poorly the Yes campaign have got their message out.
“The C-Charge is a tax on jobs in a recession”
The charge doesn’t come into force until 2013, and even then not until 80 per cent of the trams etc are up and running.
Your sentence about London’s c-charge is ambiguous (it can be read either way) but if you are saying it does not create revenue, you are wrong - it generates a net revenue of more than £80 million a year - all that goes back in to public transit.
There’s so much misinformation about c-charging it beggars belief.
[155] - Maybe. I try to be an optimist about human nature though.
[158] - Yes, I see the similarity.
171. Labour are tying everything up ‘nicely’ for when they leave office.
They are going to have to rely on the incomers good faith.
But Brown won’t be PM and Smith won’t have her seat.
Another scorched earth policy but some backbenchers can’t seem to see beyond next week.
168 I think it is dum to this is no small area ,this is a huge area affecting hundreds of thousands of people. not some small zone affecting the congested areas.
Sky news seems to have cottoned on to the fact that Gordon can’t solve problems by shouting at the banks, that interest rate cuts hurt savers and that if you make the banks unprofitable they can’t pay us back.
Adam must still be away.
If there is an ICM tonight I would expect us to have lost some of the 15 point lead, which was something of a record and at the height of the negative PBR news, but I can’t see how the Govts position will do anything other than deteriorate after Christmas.
Gordon made everything look too simple. Overhype.
[173] - Looking at the different data on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge#Income_and_costs
It seems there are lots of different estimates about the net revenue collected. Who to believe?
Even on the best case figures it does seem to be a peculiarly inefficient way of raising revenue.
re 48 sophistry I’m afraid Morris Dancer. He’s as innocent as if the foreman had pronounced “not guilty”
172.I think that Starkey made some relevant points, some very good interventions from a range of politicians, but Huhne has continued to impress in particular. He gets it.
175.SallyC, my biggest worry is the way that Gordon Brown and his government are behaving right now. All political leaders have to be ruthless to a certain degree to be successful. And Blair could certain be that, also Thatcher and Major too. Cameron has definitely shown that same ruthless streak too. But what separates Brown from the others, is the fact he can not only ruthless, but also vindictive too.
Some people go on about the fact that his hatred of the Tories will ultimately be his undoing, but he showed that same traits when dealing with those in his own party when they opposed him, or posed a threat to his ambitions.
Whether we like it or not with the Matthews case theres an element of disgust at this womans lifestyle which,added to her awful crime makes the press more free with its hyperbole.
I don’t remember seeing many newspapers describing the Shropshire Businessman who killed his wife and daughter then torched his house being described as “pure evil”
re 57 it’s the same as Birmingham, the local authorities put in a tram line or two and then boast we have an integrated public transport system when the fact is that even small cities like Dusseldorf would put us to shame, certainly on size of network and price.
[181] - Not on the tabloid front pages or editorials so much, but more in the middle-class Guardian opinion pieces…
175. Labour are like a cornered animal, lashing out wildly and spasmodically in an attempt to survive. Their desperation to hold on to power means that pretty much nothing in the realms of dirty tricks, abuse of power and outright illegality can be ruled out.
167. As I mentioned regarding South Cambridgeshire in 23 - what has happened here is Go Green - lose votes…
180 ie a ‘mentalist’.
181 She is clearly a foul selfish hag and I have no sympathy for her whatsoever but I baulked at ‘pure evil’.
You don’t have to do much of this type of work before your definition of pure evil changes. BabyP a case in point.
I am not sure it’s her background that is the distinguishing factor so much as the fact she a woman and a mother to boot.
It’s ‘unnatural’.
Think of Hindley and Brady. Society has higher expectations of women and mothers in particular. Perhaps it will be a sad day when it hasn’t.
Plus she fooled the media. A ‘crime’in itself???
re 181 and why shouldn’t we be disgusted that this woman’s sole ambition in life is to screw as many men as possible and screw as much money as possible out of the taxpayers. Society is broken whatever Brown thinks and if Labour isn’t going to do anything about it (and sacking Field was an early indication that they weren’t) then let’s have IDS’s ideas )loopy though some of them are).
186. Fooled the plods for a while too…
188. Hmm - maybe a few hours - I’m sure their radar was on here before the girl was found.
189. Well it wasn’t the Met, I suppose. They would have arrested Shannon and had her on trial
182. You can point to individual examples
186. Sally - why should it make any difference whether she is a man or a woman? Surely the crime would be of equal heiniousity (is that a word?) regardless of the sex of the perpertrator?
There’s something, ahem, “purely perverse” about supporters of Labour — party of the authoritarian criminalisation of innocents — rushing to defend Shannon Matthew’s mum!
166.
“I’ll add that the Congestion charge is 87km2 the biggest in the world, there proposing to include the whole of greater manchester in the future”
Who are ‘they’ who are proposing this, and whats your evidence? That sounds exactly like the leaflet put out by Trafford Conservatives, who claimed that a local c-charge scheme for Altrincham was ‘in the pipeline’, when this is patently untrue, and is not ‘in the pipeline’, or even at a planning stage at all.
It amazes me the bad rep the ‘yes’ campaign has been getting during this debate, with some of the complete untruths that have been trotted out by the ‘no’ campaign of late. A campaign, I might add, that has been almost solely funded by Peel Holdings, who already got involved in the local elections this year, funding independent candidates standing solely on an anti-congestion charge platform.
182. You can point to individual examples but this doesn’t alter the fact that this package will make Tramlink one of the biggest in Europe. Will try to dig out the data, as few people seem to believe this contention.
193. They appear to be trying to make some kind of weird chippy class-based point. Is this obsession a symptom of mental illness?
FTSE and Dow taking a pasting including bank shares - maybe they’ve got the details of Gordon’s “no flushing the toilet” mortgage scheme ?
Good news is oil down to $43 dollars - squeaky bum time in Ukraine ?
“The price of a barrel of crude has hit all-time highs
of more than $140 a barrel since the turn of the
year……Robin Batchelor, fund manager of BlackRock’s World Energy Fund, says: ‘The increase in demand
from industrialising economies, together with ongoing supply constraints, means that oil prices are
likely to remain high well into the next decade.’”
Some one sent me an email penny shares magazine today -with this gem in it. And they expect people to invest in their shares!
192 I agree. I have never found it makes a difference but I think to many it does. It’s relates to the perceived level of breach of trust.
Parents are worse than strangers.
Hindley was used to lure because as a woman she viewed as more trustworthy.
A mother is the ultimate betrayal.
For me it’s no worse than a betrayal by a father, but then I have no sense of superiority or inferiority when it comes to men.
But I think that makes me odd.
194. Half a dozen tram routes does not a network make.
I’ve lived and worked in Vienna, now that’s a tram network.
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.prillinger/metro/m/largemap-tram.html
I said “one of the biggest” – I’m not saying it will be the biggest, far from it. Let me try to find the data and I will post it up here – but it will be among the largest tram networks in Europe, I am sure I have read that in a serious source.
102. I could see a Tory Mayor for Greater Manchester. Don’t swallow the Labour spin about the Tories having no councillors there - it only applies to the City Centre.
Obviously a Tory Mayor would not be a default, and could possibly only happen in very good years for the Conservatives, but it is not unthinkable.
People used to say the same about Greater London never having a Tory Mayor because it was simply too Labour. People used to say the SNP would never form a government in Scotland because devolution would kill them off. People used to say that Labour would never hold seats such as Finchley. People used to say the Tories would never lose seats like Solihull. People used to say Labour would never form a government ever again.
… The rules change. The first lesson of politics; never say *never*.
201. you just said never
When are the referendum results due?
186. Karen Matthews is certainly not ‘pure evil.’ She’s a selfish and foolish woman who tried to dupe a nation, a community, and a police force. It was a wholly despicable thing to do and a betrayal of those who wished her goodwill.
But ‘pure evil?’ No.
202. Pedant!
Brent Crude just went bellow 40$
below even….
Let’s suppose Mrs Matthews, to stall for time, had mendaciously blamed a totally innocent person — “I reckon it was that Mary X what took Shannon.” Let’s suppose Mary X had been arrested, before the truth was revealed.
Labour supporters, it seems, object to the phrase “pure evil” to describe a convicted child-abuser but presumably wouldn’t have had a problem with the police retaining poor Mary X’s DNA indefinitely.
Isn’t the contradiction, the hypocrisy, as outrageous as it is obvious?
204. ‘She’s a selfish and foolish woman who tried to dupe a nation, a community, and a police force’
Are you talking about Jacquiboots Smith?
204 Agree but would add that from the reports her selfishness meant she was a very poor mother, unable to put the interests of her children above those of herself.
I just hope her daughter finds a better home life with her brother and father.
201. The Conservative group on Leeds City Council looks set to push for a directly elected Mayor too. That will almost certainly be blocked by the other parties as on current trends it would be highly likely to result in a Conservative Mayor for the city.
200. I’m not a Mancunian and not particularly interested in the C-Charge debate but the idea that we can resurrect REAL tram networks in our city and urban conurbations is a pipe dream.
A few, spine networks with supplementary bus and suburban rail links, perhaps, but proper tram networks? Unlikely.
Nobody would tolerate the disruption and expense of laying all those rails again.
I agree, they should never have been ripped up in the first place but that’s another story.
The weblink to the Vienna tram network, by the way does not show, in full, the U-bahn, S-bahn and bus networks that complement it. All of which can be accessed by a single ticket or travel pass.
And that’s another thing, I know of no British urban transport system that is awake to the principle that urban buses should pick-up and set-down passengers as quickly as possible by dispensing with the requirement to buy a ticket or show a pass to the driver. All this does is make the bus a stationary blockage to other traffic.
From my travels in Germany and Austria, I can say that Vienna is not unique. And no British city including Manchester or Sheffield will ever rival them because the rails will not be laid.
204. What if Shannon had died due to the systematic drugging by her mother. Pure evil in my book. Anyone who thinks otherwise has surely lost the plot. End of thread
212. buses in central london just stop to pick up and put down these days
all tickets are pre-bought
If we are going to have C-Charging, it should be limited to a few cities. The “Lets put a box in every car in the country so we know where every single ones exact location is” idea was insane. Other european countries with there supposedly great public transport still build exstensive road networks. (France and its Toll Motorways doesnt count!)
214. I admit I’ve not been to London for a while and that sounds like progress. But do the buses have 3 or 4 exits that are used at will by both those on the bus and those waiting to get on or does everyone stand by while passengers alight at the single front door and then troop onto the bus via that single bus door?
it is very unfashionable to say it, especially round here, but London’s transport network is actually pretty good.
201. i can also see a very high BNP vote in greater manchester, unfortunately
212. What about the Oyster card in London?????
216. generally one entrance and one different exit. the delays you are talking about are the least of their problems though to be honest.
212. There are several British cities, Leeds is perhaps the most notable, that would find even a spine tram system very helpful.
217. It’s true.
The Tube is actually the largest subway/rapid transit in terms of track length in the entire world.
Paris’ metro has slightly more stations IIRC.
And London buses are superb now – I rarely wait more than a couple of minutes for one. Londoners are very good at moaning about transport, perhaps one of the reasons they keep winning more and more investment for it. If you say everything is hunkydory you get nowt – but I remember a Trip Advisor poll a year or two ago that voted London’s transport as.. the best in the world! Probably an exaggerration, but still.
216 - Mike’s much-reviled bendy buses do. I am rarely in London these days but the 207 service from Shepherd’s Bush, up Uxbridge Road, is very much improved as a result - it used to take 10/15 minutes to “load” the bus at Shepherd’s Bush Green.
219. mostly a very good, efficient and unified way of discounting fares for londoners at the expense of tourists.
unfortunately it doesn’t extend to all routes (esp. national rail commuter lines that act like tube lines but aren’t technically)
201. yes – GM could have one on good years as you say. The Labour spin about Manchester having no councillors in Manchester is the Manchester City Council area – a tiny administrative unit that does not even include parts of Manchester City Centre!
Which says a lot about Manchester’s ludicrous government structure… I could go on
224. Ed – it will include trains as of next year.
216. No they have two doors – one for in, one for out. The buses in London are actually very good now. We are lucky though because we have regulated buses unlike Manchester or, indeed, any other UK city.
222. it is certainly world class - i can’t think of a better system that has anything like the difficulties to contend with.
London badly needs better cycling infrastructure, somehow. and the driving is, of course, completely appalling.
Telegraph has a snippet on date for the police enquiry.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/3550064/Speakers-position-untenable-after-police-contradict-Damian-Green-arrest-details.html
The intervention of Mr Quick raises the possibility that Mr Martin and the Serjeant at Arms may have misled MPs in their explanation of last week’s raid. MPs will debate the issue on Monday and an independent review of the police’s handling of the case is expected to be received next Wednesday.
O/T. Sorry to go back to something from early in the previous thread, but I want to defend myself against Stars and Stripes’ “free hit” against me after I said I wouldn’t be able to respond for a while -
“Why it is that you worked yourself up into such a lather over the matter as to come after my entire credibility (which I’ve built here over quite a long time for all to see) and accuse me of ‘hate’ is something I’m sure known only to you. Cheers and best wishes.”
That is an utterly absurd characterisation of what I did. Others can judge for themselves how much credibility you’ve earned in your time here - I appreciate a good few posters would back you up there - but I don’t see how anyone can deny that your general political analysis (as opposed to prediction of raw election results) is very, very partisan. To the extent that “I came after you” it’s only because your one-sided summary of the complex Canadian situation was so ludicrously predictable that someone really needed to call you on it. And the reference to ‘hate’ was clearly made in a jokey fashion - so before you claim someone else is getting worked up into a lather unnecessarily you really need to look in the mirror.
So yes, I look forward to revisiting this topic with you when it becomes clear whether you were right or wrong. I lack your astonishing premonitory powers so I’ve no idea which it’ll be, but in the meantime, let me just say this - cheers, S&S, and best wishes. And I say that with every bit as much sincerity as you did.
226. i had heard 2010 for my local line, and i thought that was just Ken Livingstone’s plan rather than concrete fact.
can’t wait.
223 - But a tram along the Uxbridge Road would be so much better!
182. of course we gave a lot of german and austrian cities a bit of a helping hand in developing modern planned transport systems
232. The Rangers express!
228. Cycling could and should be Boris’ big thing - but he needs to do it properly with cycling corridors or superhighways. That would transform London as every survey has shown that the reason most people resist cycling is safety fears rather than laziness/weather etc. It actually rains so little in London that even were you to commute by cycle every day, you’d only get rained on eight times apparently – or so says BoJo’s propaganda!
222- While there is no doubt Londons transport system is extensive, its also expensive (See what I did there?)
228- Not building the Ringways was something that has blighted car driving in London. Manchester has an Urban Orbital Motorway, and Glasgow will soon have one, not to mention all the other cities around Europe and the World. Of course, building it now would cost gigantic sums of money. Not even something like the Boston Big Dig would be enough.
re 224 I live 120 miles from London but have had an Oyster card for years. It would be madness not to. I understand thta the overground lines are gradually being brought on baord as well.
238- Arghhh, add 2 to the numbers!
233. It may be 2010 on some routes in all fairness, I think it’s being rolled out from next year, so some routes may be slightly later. But it’s coming. The commuter rail companies are useless anyway and we’d be better off if TfL just nationalised them inside London a la Silverlink and the Croydon Tramlink.
239. Very wise Chris. Oyster, as Ed points out, is a very crafty way to fleece tourists. I have heard “oh there’s no point my getting one as I’m only here a few times a year”.
Mwa mwa ha ha. They never did the maths.
Give Stars and Stripes some slack, RM — we’re coming up to the 50th anniversary of the death of his hero, that great American patriot Joseph McCarthy, and doubtless he’s pining for the days when kangaroo courts could send liberals to prison simply for exercising their constitutional right to silence.
237. couldn’t agree more. there was a tentative plan of Ken’s to do with radial cycling routes - if done properly this could be revolutionary. i don’t know where we are at now - both Boris and Ken made pro-cycling noises but i wasn’t exactly wowed by either on this issue
241. yep, agree with that.
I’ve long since given up on using Public Transport.
Ever since I returned from Vienna, in fact. There, everyone used the system in a way that is hard to imagine happening here where outside of London, buses are for failures.
However, I do now live in a country area in Cumbria and I have only two buses a day into and out of Kendal! Don’t get much use out of the Pension Free Pass.
And I was staggered the other day to find my wife paid £4.05 for a 15-minute journey because she travelled before 09:15.
As a lad I remember a journey of that length used to cost the same as a daily newspaper.
Dedicated cycle routes are an excellent idea. Cyclists are a menace to drivers and pedestrians and need to be got off the roads as much as possible.
235. But they had to - and did - relay the lines along the same pre-war routes!
246. they are a great idea, although not for the entirely fallacious reason you give.
London does so well because of TFL and the regulation of public transport - the Oyster Card, for instance, demonstrates that there’s now a good integrated approach so you can pretty much use every bus and tube you need to get from A to B.
A lot of European cities work very similarly. A ticket usually allows you on all public transport in the city, usually for 24 hours or so.
I would like to see this rolled out more in our big cities, and (yes, shock of shocks) I think one of the problems we currently have are the private transport companies, especially the buses, do not like being regulated.
Of course, despite many of our big cities’ urban areas being much larger than their European counterparts, outside of London we still don’t *really* have a city with proper, integrated public transport with buses, trains, trams, subways all working together to connect the city with ease.
I would support the Manchester C Charge (I am living in Manchester from next year) but one of the problems I have with it is that it follows the typical NuLab line of “We’ll chuck more money your way without strategically planning with travel companies, city planners and residents just how best we can utilise it.”
Manchester is in desperate need of an overseeing authority with democratic accountability.
Bobajob - as a “tourist” in London, where do I get an oyster card - how much does it cost? The posters are full of mumbo jumbo, how do you expect foreigners to manage?
238. It would also destroy many lovely London suburbs – I suspect. Hardly worthwhile seeing as 95 per cent of people (or something of that order) commute by public transport.
yeah, 238. is wide of the mark. there are roads that need upgrading, but the real problems are with too many cars on the road, usually really badly and selfishly driven
251- Look at the Boston Big Dig, or the Dublin Port Tunnel. OK it would cost so much money that it probably isnt worth it to build motorway tunnels of that length, but London suffers by only having half a inner ring road and the M23 and M3 not extending further into London.
250. Just walk up in any tube station and get one, or maybe you can order online. They are £3, but you’ll recover that in a day or two on cheaper fares. They are also miles more convenient than tickets as you just swipe them, boys put them in their wallets, girls in their handbags. There was apparantely a trend for city boys just putting the chip underneath their Tag Heuer watches!
One very clever thing about Oyster is that tickets totally fleece tourists – so TfL only really push Oyster to Londoners on purpose. However, I still think seeing all those visitors in long queues at Heathrow and Kings Cross is not a good advert for London so part of me thinks more visitors should be told of Oyster’s wonders, despite the revenue benefits they bring.
254. most newsagents as well. the £3 is refundable - i.e. they are free.
246. Motorists are menace to motorists, cyclists and pedestrians and need to be take off the raod as soon as possible.
Easy what you van do when you generalise.
Nice Freudian slap in your conclusion there, Bobajob.
253. can’t agree with that. there are so many more worthy transport projects that deserve that kind of cash. helping more people drive around london has only ever ended up with one result - gridlock.
257.
aha! Freudian indeed!
258. Unless you coupled it with… more road pricing…
256. Tsk. you could at least do me the service of copying and pasting my wind ups properly rather than making my posts look like those of an illiterate Labour astroturfer.
I get round London on my bicycle mainly. It’s the quickest way of getting about and the most fun (except when it rains).
For all you Londoners here, if you have a shower at work then get a bike and go for it. I reckon I save myself £100 a month on transport costs at least, I don’t get colds or ill nearly as much as I used to as I am not exposed to other people’s germs and I am fitter and more trim than I used to be.
As for Manc congestion charge, it’s just another tax that people won’t want to pay. When the economy is already hurting I doubt the people of the NorthWest want to pay more.
ed @ 230 — cycling infrastructure is the last thing London needs.
London is not Oxford and it is not Cambridge. The size of London makes cycling impractical. Cycle lanes are carved out of pavements or roads to inconvenience pedestrians, motorists and bus passengers but are rarely used. The cycle lanes I see could increase their load 100-fold and still make little discernible difference to traffic levels.
260. even if you did. cost isn’t really the issue. driving in london is a dead loss (i have to do rather a lot of it unfortunately).
average speed of 10mph is a good day (even in outer london). all roads are overused, mostly inappropriately (i.e. high streets as through routes, residential streets as rat runs, dual carriageways with people pulling over everywhere to nip into shops, bus lanes with parked cars in)
bad driving and lack of basic road sense slows everything down significantly from the optimal use of these roads as well.
OT: “Huge Job Losses Could Be Signal That Worst Is Over” http://www.cnbc.com/id/28069440
Wishful thinking?
262 - I cycle from Paddington to Berkeley Square every day (on a Brompton), and agree with all of your points. It’s great!
263. disagree totally. what you are describing is the consequence of badly-thought out, badly implemented cycling routes. london could actually be perfect for some good, well-planned cycling routes. it is the perfect size for cycling.
cycling is already more practical than driving in pretty much all areas of london (there are few A->B journeys where it is not quicker), and often more practical than using the tube, so i don’t agree.
265. Yeah, right. Massive defeat at Stalingrad shows that Germany is close to victory. Uh-huh.
OT
The PHI 100 has reached an all time low for fatuousness. It asserts that 24 hrs news coverage is exacerbating the economic crisis.
Does one assume they think if we didnt talk about it it would get better more quickly? What a load of nonsense
265. Another example of the high standard of financial journalism…
263, 267. There is some money being spent on developing cycle routes in London but I just don’t see where there is the space really? In an ideal world it would be cycle only paths seperate from the road but where is the room for this?
personally, I think cycling in traffic is great fun, but i would like to see the roads in better condition.
The Dow is only down 100, so it would seem some people believe it (I have little understanding of Financial matters so just pray every day that it will get better, even though I’m an Atheist)
262. correct. i think the ultimate plan is a real, dedicated, express cycle route:
pick a couple of areas in need of redevelopment (i am thinking of north/east london in the lea valley area but there are others i’m sure). build a radial cycle lane going direct all the way into the city of london direct. the width of a narrow road, completely dedicated to cyclists, skaters, pedestrians, with good lighting + minimal interruptions. this could be existing residential streets, converted. build parking + showers at the end, and maintain the surface. encourage cycle shops on the route, advertise the route, and advertise the area(s) on the basis you can cycle direct into work.
Re all this talk about public transport and charging would offer offer a contrarian point of view.
I dont commute anymore but I do go to up to Town quite regularly and when I do I drive or, if I am going to be drinking, I hire a driver for the day.
By the time I have got from my home to the local station, train up to Victoria or London Bridge and from there to my destination it is almost as quick to drive up, a damn site more comfortable, safer and more reliable.
In terms of cost, it would be cheaper to take the train, but notso significantly cheaper to outweigh the disadvantages (the last time I took the train was in the summer and having finished at UCL at about 21:30, it took more than nearly four hours to get home, and I had to stand most of the way). The fiver for the congestion charge is neither here nor there.
The only people I know who still use the trains are regular commuters who need to travel in the rush hour every day.
274. i really like the way this is phrased as though
(a) regular commuters are a minority in london
(b) anyone in england lives 4 hours away from london by train
@265. Hahaha. This is the start of the serious bit. The bit that went before was the not so bad bit. The end? Not a chance. The UK still has a few months before it really kicks off here.
271. here’s a clue: many, many waterways and overground railways in london have minor roads running parallel for the majority of their length, with relatively few roads crossing them.
there are loads of options out there.
unfortunately the whole thing is bound to immediately come up against 3 of the worst kinds of political problems:
(a) crossing borough boundaries and therefore involving loads of petty local politicians and bureaucrats
(b) pennypinching/incompetence, it’ll be cheaper and easier to squeeze the cycle route onto the road with bits on the pavement, to guarantee that noone will use it
(c) motorists are much better than cyclists for lobbying and would scream blue murder at the idea of closing even the most minor road in order to benefit everyone.
Regarding the Hain matter, it should have been dealt with in days not months. But who appoints the EC head? Answer (probably) the Govt so just fire the head for incompetence and set some real targets such as a 30 day max for an investigation subject to the accused supplying documents within 3 working days of each request.
277. and motorways for that matter.
277. good analysis of the drawbacks. Cyclists have such a bad name really, motorists hate them, pedestrians hate them. I always enjoy reading a Evening standard or Daily Mail website about cycling for the comments. 90% are written people who believe that cyclists kill puppies for sexual gratification. I don’t think there is too much getting over this in the short term so I just enjoy cycling on the road and encourage as many other people to do so.
267 — re cycling. As Jimbo Jones says @ 262, “if you have a shower at the office”.
My last company did have a shower at the office. And 200 employees. So if a shower takes five minutes, maybe three per cent of people could have cycled to work. Great for them but of no practical difference to the environment or congestion.
Cycle lanes have been created all across London (900km by 2010) but hardly anyone uses them. And doubtless many of those who do would otherwise have travelled by bus or train rather than car in any case.
Boris was planning to disperse 6,000 bikes for hire around London. We shall see if that helps. I doubt it.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/8966.aspx
Monday should be interesting in the HOC………….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/dec/05/damian-green-commons
281. Yeah I am a bit worried about seeing some inexperienced tourists or randoms cycling around the London roads on these bikes. I reckon it’s a good thing overall but I have little time for amateurs on the roads.
281. you are talking about really really bad cycling facilities though, done thoughtlessly on the cheap, and i’m afraid all you are doing is demonstrating that your heart is already set on not accepting that cycling might actually be a good way of getting around.
i believe boroughs have quotas of cycle lane mileage - that is the only way i can explain my own local council’s decision to paint cycle lanes on both sides of the road in every single dead end in the big industrial estate.
I think we need a market on when/whether the banks will be nationalised.
280. yes me too - but things could be so much better, at so little expense. one of my biggest frustrations locally
It should be noted that buses in London receive massive subsidy; their success is a function of this rather than of regulation per se…..
283. these free bikes are a gimmick and will immediately be trashed or stolen by thoughtless passers-by.
287. being well planned by one organisation across the whole of london is a major factor.
284 ed - “i believe boroughs have quotas of cycle lane mileage - that is the only way i can explain my own local council’s decision to paint cycle lanes on both sides of the road in every single dead end in the big industrial estate.”
And to think that only yesterday you were arguing that there weren’t easy savings to be made in local government!
285. They are aready!
275: ed @ 15:34
I think I worded my post very badly if that is the impression you got. Let me try again in simpler terms.
In my experience public transport in London is dreadful, expensive, overcrowded, unreliable and, too frequently, unsafe.
Also in my experience the only people who still use it,from out of Town at least, are those that, effectively, have no choice.
Congestion charges have limited if any impact on behaviour because they are set too low to make any real difference.
Oh, and just to set the record straight, I don’t live more than four hours from London, less than fifty miles in fact. It was the quality of the train system that turned a simple journey into a four hour marathon.
Is taht better for you?
this is a top website for flicking through worst cycle facility for each month http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/
291. already
So what is the end? World War 3?
God this thread is awwwful. Full of anoraks and sandal wearers going on about trams and bikes as if somehow that’s how the real world works. Public transport is basically bollocks = end of. Can we get a nice new thread up please?
279
Ken
Now you can see why I am so bearish.
The pundits are about 9 light years behind…
262. Jimbo – it doesn’t come in until 2013!
One close to my heart, this is.
Interesting that they’re getting a lot of people from Not Manchester to vote. Certain of the boroughs in Not Manchester have significant populations who are rather proud to be Not Manchester - I’d expect this to have some impact on the outcome.
256. I changed cyclists in your post to motorists in mine to make a point.
232- RM, you could really use a vacation. You don’t agree with my conclusion about what is happening in the Canadian power struggle between Coalition and anti-Coalition factions. Big deal. You’re as partisan as anyone here, so I don’t see how partisanship is suddenly so disturbing to you (although I know it isn’t partisanship that bothers you, but rather having to face the horror of someone who doesn’t agree with your own partisan perspective). Let it go and move on. Try discussing the issues rather than attacking other posters and you’ll find you’ll win more respect. As the ever-wise Morus once said, ‘play the ball and not the man.’
294 - I see Osborne is still plying his view that the taxpayer should underwrite the banks losses so it could easily be argued by a Tory that we’re not that far off anyway.
282. Interesting, the government have one view, their own backbenchers have another, the opposition is coming up with some combined tactics and the speaker seems to be unhappy with Harman’s plan too. This is all becoming a mess for them.
SaS @301: “As the ever-wise Morus once said, ‘play the ball and not the man.’”
Aha, but then you miss one of the delights of British football, the completely agricultural and deliberately mistimed tackle by the clumsy centrehalf.
There’s a certain aesthetic pleasure to a particularly bad foul, and political debates are no different
296 (etc)
The real world hopefully will learn to apply a bit more husbandry to our amazing inheritance (the planet). At the end of my seventh decade and 300,000 miles cycled, I can verify with a worm’s eye that cycles are a seriously cheap and effective means of transport. Although I grow older I can say that the ever increasing traffic in town is congesting traffic faster that I slow.
232- One other note for you, RM. Your persecution complex is rearing its ugly head again. You whine “I want to defend myself against Stars and Stripes’ “free hit” against me after I said I wouldn’t be able to respond for a while.”
If you look at my post following your declared departure, you’ll see that it was made within one minute of yours, which would indicate to any reasonable person who was not actively seeking to be offended that the posts were likely being written at the same time. Therefore, no “free hit” ever happened.
You would love to believe that I’m out to get you, but that’s just your paranoia at work. Let it go, let it go…
249. “Manchester is in desperate need of an overseeing authority with democratic accountability”
Such as a Greater Manchester mayor. It’s screamingly obvious to me – and indeed to Michael Heseltine. I wonder if Cammo will adopt it? Probably not, because petty minded local politicians will shout it down – again.
But read Hezza’s report: really excellent piece of work. There’s a round up here:
http://www.centreforcities.org/index.php?id=275
296. What a silly post. The real world works in different ways depending which part of it you live in. If you live in London or a big city, public transport is very important indeed.
299. They are all Greater Manchester though. I suspect some of the oldies may still believe they live in Lancashire or wherever, but to most young people and outsiders it’s all Manchester and you might as well accept it!
292. your posts make one thing crystal clear: nothing would persuade you away from your beloved car journey. everything else is just self-justification for that one fact.
292
In my experience public transport in London is dreadful, expensive, overcrowded, unreliable and, too frequently, unsafe.
- well your experience is different to mine then. If you are a regular user, or have an Oyster, it’s actually pretty good value. Even my season ticket from Hampshire worked out at about £60 a week, which for a 400 miles a week is probably less than the petrol alone for driving. Yes its crowded, but that’s what cities are. My services on SWT are generally very reliable, and are comfortable and clean.
Also in my experience the only people who still use it,from out of Town at least, are those that, effectively, have no choice.
- You hire a driver when you go into London so I suspect you know people for whom money is no object. I would never drive into London out of choice: it is no place for a car. Train + tube/bus is the only way to travel efficiently. The big problem at the moment, though, is weekend closure of tube lines for engineering work which is a real pain in the a*se.
Congestion charges have limited if any impact on behaviour because they are set too low to make any real difference.
- probably, for people in your position, although I believe it has made a difference for some peaple who live just outside the charge zone and used to drive in.
Oh, and just to set the record straight, I don’t live more than four hours from London, less than fifty miles in fact. It was the quality of the train system that turned a simple journey into a four hour marathon.
- I can (and regularly did) get from Piccadilly to NE Hampshire in about an hour and a quarter.
The problem is that a transport system as big and complex as London’s is only easy to use for a regular traveller who can learn all the ins & outs: as an irregular user, you have no chance.
309. Bobajob:
My point is that the “Greater Manchester” pseudo-identity is rejected by a larger proportion than you might think.
308 And in Vienna, not only very practical and useful, but also a delight.
I’ll risk being labelled an anorak with yet another anecdote.
In the delightful Cary Grant film, ‘Arsenic and Old Lace’ there’s a scene with a Brooklyn tram going across the screen behind the action (set pre-war).
That very tram was loaned to the Vienna transport system after the war and the destruction of much of its stock and now sits in the City’s tram museum.
308. Labour failed big style on public transport - Good job Prescott is no longer in the government as his 10 year vow has been broken.
Labour have just screwed up the economy and created a more diversified yet divided country. The only positive i can see is immigrants going home as this country will be far worse effected than other western european countries or for that matter Eastern European ones.
280. I think the tide may be turning in London a tad Jimbo. Loads of younger blokes at my place cycle some or all of the time (I am a bit of a fair weather man - but I do it during the longer days). Sadly, there remain the likes of Scampi and Runnymede, prejudiced and blinkered against those on two wheels. Still who cares? We know we are fitter than them and probably are ill less often, and richer!
Fraser Nelson raises a good point regarding interest rates. The money which banks have raised from the Treasury costs 12%. Hardly surprising that they are not very keen on lending out at base rate + a small margin.
The article is here: http://tinyurl.com/5qe622
The problem with public transport is you are exposed to nutters, smelly or disgusting people you would never mix with and the like. Particularly on Bus journeys.
Public transport. Unless you live in a big city , its totally useless. Is not integrated and where I live buses to outlying villages are non existant post7-8pm. If I wanted to go into my local town for a night out (9 miles away), I could get in by bus but not out. Taxi home at 11.30pm, about £25
If I want to drive to London (SW not cental) I can do it in 55 minutes. the same journey, if I was lucky would be at least 2 hours at worst 2.5 hrs.
PhilC - “In my experience public transport in London is dreadful, expensive, overcrowded, unreliable and, too frequently, unsafe.”
What is the accident/injury rate on public transport c.w. cars?
I’ve always wanted a government to introduce the US style Yellow School Bus over here.Its the best way of getting cars of the road,saving many families from running a second car, and in the states its the safest form of road transport.
315. no doubt cycling has exploded in popularity recently. it still amazes me how few people cycle who really really should though
i.e.
current commute is a nightmare
short distance to work
broke
want to get fit
And still Greengate is the main Westminster event.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/dec/05/damian-green-commons
Road charging leaves me with a dilemma, I would prefer a system whereby people pay for where they drive, from free roads in most of the country to payment for inner cities and other bottlenecks, however…
Other than time consuming tollbooths how to do that? A computerised system which then means people can be tracked? That information in the wrong hands would be a massive assault on civil liberties. As long as government are made to keep their hands off it and the database is ring fenced then why not? Because government has shown it can’t be trusted to kep its hands off that’s why.
So I’m left with not being able to support something that would provide a system of fair payment (to replace road tax?) because I don’t trust government to administer it.
317. I think your point about buses only really applies outside London, where buses are unregulated and therefore often dirty and scummy. In London they are generally peopled by a cross-section of the population - no more nutters per 100 people than a walk down the street.
319. They already have in some places.
321 see 282. Sadly the cognosenti are still talking about cyclists.
317.Talk about leaving yourself wide open!
319. tim, i think the beauty in the detail of his parody postings on this subject are a triumph of highly improbable personal anecdote in the face of readily available statistics, and should be left alone.
Excellent piece on the economy by Fraser Nelson.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3067846/brown-is-trying-to-deflect-blame-onto-the-bankers.thtml
319. Again – I haven’t got the data to hand but I’m pretty certain London Underground has one of the most amazing safety records. Something really low… be interesting to see the data, but it will be way below, way, way below motoring…
319
Not me, I’m quoting HurstLlama, my comments are the sections with the dashes.
Actually I think kids should walk to school like wot I did.
317- Too bad you don’t have an anti-stench crusader like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to clean things up for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP6qeBPl_HA
327. Um yes - probably should not have responded!
330. Fair enough.
326. To what?
318. “Public transport. Unless you live in a big city , its totally useless. Is not integrated”
Totally correct. The car is really the only viable form of transport in rural areas. That’s why we should concentrate on improving public transport in big cities - like Manchester…
And another:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3067191/taking-a-pounding.thtml
322 I think a compromise is, comgestion charges in the most congested parts of towns and cities, and maybe some toll motorways with variable charges to cover the busiest times. The rest can be uncharged. Of course a good proxy for taxing people according to how much they use the road is to tax petrol - which we already do. So it’s really only the worst bits (see above) which need top-up charges.
308. I’ve lived in London since 1976. So I know what i’m talking aqbout - additionally I have been bored rigid by your l-w rants over the past few days. Go back to Labour home and give us all a break.
324 - They’re mostly pilot schemes due to report fairly soon I think.
335 Damn me, I think I’m just about to agree with BJ.
SCREAM. New thread please!!
The reason why continental cities have good tram systems is partly down to the way they are paid for…….often by local taxation, and business taxation at that. The Local Government Association have a “Special Interest Group” called the Public Transport Consortium, and last year there was a close look at trams both here and there.
I found it amazing that there is one town in France with a population of 40,000 with a good tram system. In UK we are told that there needs a population of ten times that size for it to be viable.
There is a big problem if Manchester votes “No”, and remember that the total vote is not the only test, there have to be 8 of the 10 Council areas in favour, if the “Noes” win, there is no Plan B. There is no alternative being worked up to deal with the projected increases in traffic volumes, and thus congestion.
Well, actually, there is, and that is that the Government comes up with all of the money, not just half. But that won’t happen, as there is not much left in the coffers.
As for Bobajob @ 307, and a Greater Manchester mayor…..sorry, but people in Wigan, Bolton, Rochdale, Oldham, Ashton, Stalybridge, Stockport, Altrincham, Sale, or Stretford just don’t see themselves as being part of Manchester. You might call it “petty minded”, I prefer to call it northern independence.
(born and raised in Stretford, and a member of the NW Regional Transport Group)
328 Anyone who thinks banks are going to be Brown’s bitches will be badly bitten….
340.
Well it is Friday night Phil. 
341. http://www.abd.org.uk/
Here you go Scampi.
342. They are in Greater Manchester! I work with a girl from Saddleworth, which is way out and she says she is from Manchester. It’s a generational thing and people have multiple identities I reckon.
334 To “bloody hell, I was on the bus the other day and there was that nutter Martin Day, going on about how he can’t get a job and ranting on at lefties.”
yawn….
School buses - Tim embraces a Tory policy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4964854.stm
Sutton Trust makes claims about school buses - some of which may be true. (I havent really trusted these guys since I analysed some of their prejudiced stuff about private schools - they definitely over-egged their case.) They make some valid claims about the social costs of private motoring (the school run). But I suspect their gain numbers are overstated and their cost numbers are understated. It would do one useful thing though - it might increase the mobility of the poorest children allowing them to attend schools further from home. This latter point is very important.
http://www.suttontrust.com/reports/Sutton-Trust-transport-submission-final.doc
338. Labour home? Did you see my posts about Douglas Alexander earlier. I can’t be expected to shape my posts about what interests you anyway.
347. Thanks. Didn’t think he’d ask. Lol!
343. Indeed if Brown doesn’t play nice they will just look to do their business elsewhere where they can make some money.
346 Blimey, not so long ago she’d have considered herself a Yorkshirewoman.
(Lovely place, Saddleworth, if you could live there and commute to Manchester from Greenfields(?) station…)
341 Mike, how about a piece on BoJo’s re-election chances? That should allow us to go on about urban public transport policy for scampi’s delectation. I bet he’s one of those people who thinks that if you ever have to use public transport, your winky gets smaller.
346. the guys i know from saddleworth consider themselves yorkshire
Hain getting a bit of a pasting on Comment is Free.
Some seem to be wondering if he could be charged with misconduct in public office.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/05/peterhain-partyfunding?commentpage=1
354 Of course they do.
353. So I’m told. But she’s 28ish, so she won’t have been born then.
322. road charging is an unfortunate topic. basically there already is an easy, pretty fair method of charging people for how much they drive, with the proceeds going towards the govt transport budget. its called petrol tax.
unfortunately thanks to some very canny lobbying from the likes of Jeremy Clarkson it is politically toxic to suggest just hiking that. so an expensive and cumbersome scheme to do almost the same thing has to be dreamed up in the form of road charging.
there is of course a slight difference in that road charging can divert people towards the roads you want them to use more - but in fact it is highly unlikely to be applied to really minor roads, so is more likely to have a negative effect in this regard as people erroneously believe they can save money by dodging the toll road to use a residential rat-run instead.
349 - I didn’t realise the Tories had adopted it as a policy,but if they have good for them. - have they?
I do know that there’s various pilot schemes running at the moment.
I suspect there may be a “London Problem” with this policy too, but I don’t think its particularly party sensitive.
354. It used to be in Yorkshire until early the seventies, so older types would. It’s an extreme example of course - using an anecdote to make my point. I’m sure she’s not typical!
357. there are parents who bring their children up “believing” you know!
337. and UkPaul - yes the big flaw with satellite charging is the surveillance thing.
357 I was born in Ilford after it became part of Greater London but I still consider myself an Essex Boy. (Actually it’s by descent as well as both my parents’ families are from West Ham).
So maybe this is Blair’s Cool Britannia… do young people really have no sense of history, regional identity, etc any more?
re 341 - there might just be a new poll out tonight so please stick with this thread.
I don’t want to put something up that I have spent some time working on if it only gets outdated by a new poll.
363 Hey, generalising from one (anecdotal) example, I think I must have had too many G&Ts.
314.
“Prescott is no longer in the government”
There was a berk on the Tory election broadcast the other night called Prescott. I truly thought he must be a chip off the old block with a name like ‘Shane’. Remember the Cowboy boots? His intelligence seemed just about right too. Moan about the recession and do so promoting the party which would make the recession deeper. Big John, the Night of the Tracy Templar would be proud of you son!
361. Yes - see my post at 360. The point is, places like Saddleworth are extreme examples. Remember Manchester United’s ground is not in the City of Manchester either - but then nor is Forest’s in Nottingham officially. But that’s because of wacko boundaries that haven’t been changed in decades despite the cities growing.
366 errrr Where is your PROVEN evidence for this assertion.
363. OK - but does that mean that you think Ilford should not be part of the mayoralty? Remember, if we applied old boundaries - Ken would still be mayor…
354. I am from Richmond and consider myself to be from North Yorkshire and I irk when anybody suggests I am from ‘Yorkshire’. Why? Because it bundles us genteel folks Tory voting folks of the North Riding in with the Socialist Republic.
Tory Diary is quoting George Osborne as saying that the bank rescue plan isn’t working.
Q. What’s the difference between a labour rescue plan and a Bullingdon Tory front bencher?
A. One isn’t working and the other wouldn’t recognise work if it thumped him in the face.
364 - Is YouGov for the Telegraph due about now? It always appears in the Saturday edition IIRC
368.
Remind me how many hundreds of thousands of small businesses MrsThatcher drove to the wall.
364. Don’t worry Mike - Scampi is clearly of the view we should only debate topics that interest him. Be quite a narrow site if we did. Like your article but think it’s a sadly going to be a No for your home city of Manchester. But we can live in hope.
369 No… there’s an argument that Essex goes as far west as the Lea in any case. Ilford’s a bit of a sh*thole anyway, but then so are some places in Essex proper. To be honest I’ve only lived there for 6 months in 25 years!
363. I come from Ilford too, though I was born in India. Still, apart from a brief stint in Cambridge, I’ve lived there almost the whole of my life. Ilford had been an Urban District Council (and therefore semi-detached from the County) long before the GLC came about.
376 Welcome Sunil are you a new poster?
375. Double negative problem (due to my poorly formed question)… do you think Ilford should be in the mayoralty, or it should not?
For those interested in relative safety:
As of 2002 DoT figures deaths per billion passenger kilometres in Great Britain:
Motorcycle 111.3
Walk 44.8
Bicycle 29.5
Car 2.8
Van 1.0
Bus or coach 0.4
Rail 0.3
Water 0.0
Air 0.0
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=7250&Pos=&ColRank=1&Rank=272
Sorry for double-post, but why couldn’t we in Greater London have had a vote on the C-charge here?
373 That is NOT answering my question. Please answer it properly.
377. MTF, no I’ve been lurking for most of the autumn, but have made the occasional post!
382 You are very welcome nevertheless.
Apologies if already posted:
“MP’s home swept for ‘police bugs’”
“The offices, home and car of Conservative MP Damian Green have been swept for bugs by a private security firm called in by his own party.
The Tories say they suspected that listening devices may have been planted by Metropolitan Police officers when the Kent MP was arrested last week.
Despite intensive searches, nothing was found by the security experts.
The MP was held for nine hours by police on suspicion of conspiring to commit misconduct in public office.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7768372.stm
376. New poster? Welcome. Do you think Ilford should be in London mayoralty then. Just interested.
379. Fairly conclusive. Thanks Ken.
Sorry, not a newbie! But I definitely think Ilford/Romford/Walthamstow/Stratford/Barking should be in the Mayor’s jurisdiction.
384 Why are you surprised. I would have done the same thing. If not the police, it might well have been someone else….
310: ed @ 18:19
Sorry, Old chap, but I am not a car freak. When I go into Brighton I alwlys go by bus or train - its efficient, quick enough, clean and safe. When I am abroad I seldom if ever use a car other than a taxi. For London, however, I take a differnet course of action, for the reasons stated.
319: Tim @ 18:27
No idea what the comarative injury/accident rates are, what I do know is I have never been mugged whilst driving/being driven in a private vehicle. I wish I could say the same about public transport in London (robbed twice and one attempt). BTP should be able to provide some more general statistics about safety if you need them.
Phil C at 18:20
Actually, I am not rich, and hiring a driver is not that expensive either. For example, last time I went for a run ashore in Town the driver cost me £60. Subtract from that the rail fares and taxis fares I would have paid and it does not add significiantly to a good day out.
I fully accept your argument that you can get to Hampshire from central London in an an hour and a quarter. I should be able to get from Victoria or London Bridge down to darkest Sussex in a tad less than an hour. The operative word though is should. Factor in the journey time at each end and the level of comfort involved and the train soon ceases to be quite as attractive as it should be.
Gents, I did say I was offering a contrarian view of travel to/from and within London, a city in which I was born, bred, and worked for many years.
389 How far are you from the station/bus stop for Brighton. How frequent are the trains/buses?
378 No real opinion… I haven’t lived there since I was 2, when my parents moved to a town near Southend. It’s in the Mayoralty because it became part of the GLC in 1964, it’s a built up area contiguous with greater London and whose economy is largely dependant on London - it probably makes more sense than Kingston (where I’ve lived much more recently) which is more of a centre in its own right and has almost as much economic connection with Surrey as with central London.
Thanks for thos stats Ken.
Cameron should put the briefcase on the bike.
390. How about 4 minutes? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kV6Kx4jbpeY
380. We voted in a mayor who was committed to installing it, and then another who was committed to retaining it. They haven’t got a mayoral system in Manchester so they have to do everything by committee – the committee came up with this: Seven boroughs must vote Yes to trigger the massive investment plus charging package. Even a popular vote majority on the charge is not enough unless you have the seven. It’s ludicrous.
391. Fair enough.
392. Bit harsh given cycling’s high accident rate
379 I’ll have to give up walking then. Surprised it’s more dangerous than cycling. Do you have stats by time travelled rather than by passenger km?
389 Thx…we all need our views challenged from time to time! I will have to admit, that the last 2 times I moved house I was able to move somewhere that was convenient for work (when I worked in Notting Hill I lived in New Malden). So I live 5 minutes walk from the station which makes it easy. I am sometimes surprised that people don’t seem to do this, but then moving house is expensive and if, unlike me, you’re not sensible enough to live on your own you have other factors to consider like you other half’s job and the kids’ school. And having used other London commuter train lines occasionally I think SWT is one of the better ones. Thameslink, South Eastern and some of the lines to the north of London can be pretty crap.
395. there are certain “styles”, shall we say, of cycling that drag the average accident rate up more than necessary. same with motorbikes.
Labour is all guff on the recession - they are now going to postpone the aircraft carrier program and roll the completion date back! Not so much Labour helping to cushion the blow but put more hard working families
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3567434/Aircraft-carriers-delayed-by-Ministry-of-Defence-budget-crisis.html
I don’t think cycling accident rates are high, especially if you add to the equation the health benefits–longer life, better life. The same probably applies to people who walk a fair amount and briskly in their use of public transport. I think that most pedestrian deaths are caused by cars mounting pavements, and not the (admittedly irritating pavement cyclists). To power millions of people in tin boxes by a device powered by explosions is truly strange I think. But I also liked “Mr, Hulot’s holiday”.
398 Defence of the realm. yeaah right. Labour has underfunded our armed forces massively. its a disgrace.
398 So what happened to “bringing forward capital expenditure” then? Or don’t jobs at BAe Systems count?
393 Didnt The beatles use this for one of their hits on Top of the Pops?
389. you may not be a car ‘freak’ but few of your claims make any sense apart from in the context of “i’m scared and suspicious of london transport”. no way is it cheaper, quicker, or safer to drive even 10% of the time. for example, you present one example of a train journey that took much longer than necessary, but don’t mention ever being stuck in traffic?
there are plenty of reasons why you (or any other individual) might have to or choose to drive, and that is all fine, of course, but the figures speak for themselves overall. which is lucky, because the road system is already full up to and possibly beyond capacity.
399. Cars don’t often mount pavements, but an awful lot of pedestrians cross the road a) without looking or b) listening to an ipod or c) talking on a mobile phone.
I think, when drawing up a new transport scheme, the government need to be aware that in rural areas the car is king. Public transport is not going to compete with cars in these rural areas unless massive investment is offered, essentially subsidising unprofitable routes. We all know that this country cannot afford such massive investment.
So immediately the government need to write off trying to wean rural areas off cars, and turn their attention to the cities and urban areas (Greater London, Greater Manchester, the West Midlands Urban Area, the West Yorkshire Urban Area, Newcastle, Nottingham etc). Here demands are much different and an integrated transport network, and less car use, is probably the best strategy. I have lived in a rural part of the country and in a city, and I recognise people’s attitudes towards public transport tend to be different: in rural areas, people are very sceptical of local bus/train services (apart from perhaps the elderly for whom a basic level of community bus service is often vital) and do not want to pay more for them; in the cities, if people think they’re going to get a good level of service, a regular service and something that’s convenient for them, they’re going to use public transport.
The key is coming up with a policy and a tax system to reflect this. That’s where it begins to get tricky.
397.
Sure, but I think two wheelers are always going to be more risky than cars while ever they have to share the road. That’s why cycling corridors are a good idea - they take out much of the risk of death because you aren’t sharing the road with traffic.
One thing about cyclists that always gets me is when they cycle on the dratted pavement.
405. Excellent post.
404,
Yes, granted. But then I also, as a cyclist, see the law flaunted on innumerable occasions by drivers using mobile ‘phones. I’m talking in numbers approaching millions of times a week here. From my view women seem as bad as men in this, but overall they are, I think, much safer.
Joining this a bit late, so sorry if these points have been made before.
In a city like London, there are three main transport users as follows:
Regular commuters for work (either from the suburbs or further afield).
Residents of the city and its immediate outskirts for leisure use.
People from further outside the city for occasional visits (usually leisure).
The first two groups make up by far the largest number of journeys and, from my observations and conversations with people who use it in this way, the public transport system works fairly well. Whereas just about everyone I know outside London has a car each, some of my friends in London don’t have a car in the household. This has environmental benefits and reduces congestion.
The third group are more of a problem. Before I moved to Yorkshire I lived in Hampshire and was a regular visitor to London, mainly for concerts. I used to drive all the time, because it was impossible to stay to the end of a gig and still catch the last train (which left at just before 11pm) home. If you missed that you had the choice of waiting until about 4am or getting a train to a town about 20 miles from where I lived and a taxi from there.
The problem was that the numbers of people in my situation weren’t huge. Most people in central London at night appear to be (I may be wrong, but I don’t think so) from the suburbs. Also, we have very little say in the transport system (no vote in London elections), so aren’t as important to the authorities.
As has been said, if you live outside a major city a car is almost essential, unless you want to severely limit your options for both work and leisure. Driving in the evening in London isn’t too bad (or at least wasn’t a few years ago), and was free (is it still?). Personally, I’d have preferred to use the train, if for no other reason than I could have had a beer, but it wasn’t practical and I suspect it still isn’t. People from outside the city have to live with that and accept it, but in my opinion have a right not to be criticised for using their cars.
Can I just say - what a great thread. Manchester. Public transport. Public transport in Manchester. Varying identities of not-Manchester boroughs in Manchester. Fantastic - thanks Mike.
Bobajob - I’ve thoroughly enjoyed disagreeing with pretty much everything you’ve said up and down this thread. Eloquently argued, fella.
Mike - why not just have an Open Thread? All the other blog websites do it when things are a little busy…
411. Thanks - yeah bit of a diversion tonight, if you’ll excuse the pun.
How about this for a diversion of topic. Paul Waugh is a TOP blogger.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/
409. I’m not a motorist, I’m a pedestrian, As such it pays to be aware of certain facts - step out from between parked cars and a vehicle 20 ft or less away travelling at 20mph will hit you, it cannot stop in time. A cyclist cutting across would no doubt experience the same feeling of airborne joy shortly before falling under an arctic and being stenciled down the highway by a set of Pirellis.
And frankly, as a pedestrian I’ve had more close calls involving cyclists than cars. Get off the pavements, do not go the wrong way down a one-way street and obey the f*cking road signs and traffic lights. Twice last week I stepped out of shops onto the pavement and nearly got wiped out by bloody cyclists who think they have a right to ride wherever they please. .
Compulsory insurance would be a big help, I think.
390 Maggie Thatcher Fan @ 19:10
Not sure of the reason for your question but since you asked:
From home to the station is 45mins walk, 10 minutes on the bus (one an hour and none in the evenings) or about £7.50 in a taxi (key when coming home late and/or tired and emotional). The bus stop is five minutes walk away.
Bus to Brighton: there are two in the mornings one at about 8 and one at about 11, which gets me there about right for a pre-luncheon snifter; journey time is about 35 minutes.
On the occassions when my business in Brighton does not start with luncheon (increasingly rare, thanks be to God), I’ll get the train down, of which there are two an hour outside peak times.
For comparison purposes to drive to the Centre of Brighton takes about 25 minutes.
For the places I need to go to in London the combined journey time by public transport is around two hours going up and usually longer coming home if after the peak time. By car I can usually do it in around two hours fifteen to thirty and about one and a half hours coming home in the evening after the peak time.
416 In a nutshell if you are in a hurry, forget public transport.
415. to be fair, close calls with cyclists are not likely to have been near-death experiences. unlike cars travelling in a 30mph zone.
compulsory insurance would be a complete disaster, of course, because it would discourage people from cycling. irritation of bad cyclists aside, cyclists benefit everyone else by choosing not to drive, and put up with more than their fair share of hazards.
[407] - Yes, I’ve had to complain to the council about cyclists on pavements, but they basically endorse the breaking of the law.
They’ve patronisingly told me that inexperienced cyclists aren’t ever going to use the road, but quite how they are going to become experienced I don’t know.
Anyway, they’ve painted bicycle pictures on lots of pavements, including ones with blind corners, bus stops, etc and this has lead to my daughter and I having to dodge loads of cyclists on the walk to school in the morning, often on pavements that haven’t been converted into cycle lanes.
I say all this as someone who cycles to work everyday, having never cycled in this country up until six years ago [I'd cycled in Vienna as a child].
There are, unfortunately, some cyclists who let the side down.
342 Ok I will. It is indeed PETTY MINDED. And having a single mayor - of whatever party - might help the petty minded get over their petty-mindedness. Bring it on!
off topic: Has anyone else seen their own backside with the new racingpost.com site? I don’t just mean the teething probems, the whole thing is TRULY HORRIBLE.
415
I have no time for pavement cyclists and ones who break laws of the road. It may sound strange, but cyclists, especially kids, need more instruction. I think it also benefits me to have a drivers’ licence. But drivers shouldn’t drink or use their mobies, which pose about equal risks I gather. I have been trying, and failed so far, to think of a word to describe the slow and slightly daft driving of many mobile user-drivers. I wonder whether one really needs to sbe a cyclist to see this often. I don’t know.
419. unfortunately there are also plenty of motorists who let the side down - and somehow manage to believe that their own law-breaking, speeding whilst texting, pushing queues (slowing everyone down), driving in an almost continuous state of road fury etc. is fine, and will never result in accidents. and of course, you can do a lot more damage with a car than you can with a bicycle.
there are bad road users everywhere, on all sides. a culture of tolerance and abiding by the law where possible is the _only_ way to go.
414.
If he were a ‘top blogger’, how come nobody at all ever seems to comment on any of his stuff?
[415] - More important than compulsory insurance would be compulsory registration and licence plates.
A cyclist can almost knock you over but you then have no comeback because it is hard to identify them so that the police can follow it up? Whereas with a car, you can remember the licence plate and pass it to the police.
418. So I should be humbly grateful for not-very-serious injuries, from some sh1thead who is breaking the law, is that it? And with no insurance, who do I make a claim against? Some pathetic lentil-eater who knits organic socks from whole-food muesli? Fat chance. Sorry, given half a chance the cyclists in question would have received a bag full of shopping in the face. They can bleed to death in the gutter for all I care.
OBEY THE HIGHWAY CODE OR GET OFF YOUR BIKE.
424 OH dear wage slave, are you worried Labour have been caught out again. Your faith in the great leader must be under some stress. and you still didnt answer my question………..
50 - you really are getting boring now
In the real world not everything Labour does is right and neither is everything the other parties do wrong.
and thats leaving out how you twist the positions to suit…..
381.
The day MTF posts anything other than meaningless guff is the day anyone older than the age of ten will do as he demands. Ladbrokes will take any money on this issue at infinite odds!
427.
“Your faith in the great leader must be under some stress.”
Grow up laddie. My faith in that Scots Camereon clone is about as strong a the Leeds United defence.
429 Been at the Lowenbrau this evening have we?
[423] - Yes, I once used to keep a blog about drivers who had done dangerous things that were in breach of the highway code. It helped to make me less angry, and I thought I’d pass it to the police if I came across any repeat offenders.
My experience has been that the drivers around here [in Exeter] have become better around cyclists over the last three years, as there have been more cyclists on the road for them to get used to having to drive around us.
431.
Now how do you pronounce that, child?
403: Ed @ 19:27
I am sorry that posts offering an alternative view of publc transport in London have got you so upset that you feel the need to insult me.
If you really do want to carry on this discussion further might I ask that uou go back to my original post and read what I actually said (i.e. using the train would be quicker and cheaper but not to such an extent that, for me and those I know, the disadvantages are outweighed). Otherwise I fear that neither of us would be spending our time wisely.
New thread: Who’ll speak up for the lazy and the slothful?
412 - Not around here, fella! Three-to-five high quality pieces a day (at least when the gaffer is around to write them!), and you monkeys have the freedom to go off topic on all of them.
That way, you get the splendid anarchy of an open thread, and we don’t feel like we’re short-changing what I reckon are the 80% of readers who don’t delve into the comments.
436 - If you’re reading this, you’re about to get a lesson in ironic timing.
Or strategic?
437 - Excellence as always, Morus
439 - Cheers, mate!