In the Sunday papers
November 30th, 2008
Cameron - “this is a watershed moment”: Brown must speak out
How will Clegg’s aeroplane comments play in the Lib Dems?
Writing in the News of the World, David Cameron calls on the PM to “make his opinions clear” on the Green arrest.
“…does he think it is right for an MP who has apparently done nothing to breach our national security to have his home and office searched by a dozen counter-terrorist police officers, his phone, BlackBerry and computers confiscated, and to be arrested and held for nine hours? …if this approach had been in place in the 1990s, then Gordon Brown would have spent most of his time under arrest. He made his career from passing on Whitehall leaks. And he’ll be guilty of hypocrisy if he doesn’t speak out.”
The Mail on Sunday reports on the claim that the police used phone calls from a Home Office whistleblower Christopher Galley in a bid to entrap Green, trying to persuade him to call the shadow minister.
The Independent reports that the Commons offices of Green and other senior Tories are routinely swept for bugs, and that there is a fear among MPs that the security services now have an open door to snoop, while John Rentoul argues that the police are now a law unto themselves.
Meanwhile, the Sunday Times focuses on Scotland Yard, reporting that it is in a state of turmoil, with senior police officials criticising its new boss and admitting the handling of the Green arrest had been “catastrophic”, while David Blunkett has called on the cabinet to review the process by which the police have access to the offices and confidential material of MPs.
The Observer’s editorial argues that Brown’s silence betrays Parliament, while Andrew Rawnsley compares the situation to “Harare, Minsk, or Rangoon”. Matthew d’Ancona in the Sunday Telegraph says that Labour doesn’t mind leaks - so long as it is doing the leaking: “the arrest has turned Mr Green into the Andrew Sachs of politics”.
Finally, the Sunday Mirror reports on Nick Clegg slagging off his colleagues while on a packed aeroplane:
He revealed his dislike for Steve Webb… “Webb must go,” he said. “He’s a problem. I can’t stand the man. We need a new spokesman. We have to move him. We need someone with good ideas. At the moment, they just don’t add up.”
…He then slated rising star Julia Goldsworthy. “We have to move her too. She gets patronised. And we can’t give her Foreign. She’s just not equipped to do it. Huhne also came in for a battering. Clegg dismissed him for the key Environment job by saying the shadow cabinet needed someone “more emotionally intelligent”. He then talked of demoting Huhne.”
Double Carpet
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Thirst?
First!
Frisk?
What is this game?
Mornington Crescent
“Watershed moment”? Whoever wrote that article for David Cameron should be arrested by 9 anti-terrorism officers armed with a dictionary flagged at the word “watershed” for such a heinous abuse of the English language.
If it turns out Smith or Brown knew anything in advance, or that a bug is founf anywhere in Parliament, then Brown really is toast once and for all.
If they didn’t know anything in advance when Cameron, Boris and the speaker did, then they have cause to resign for not being in proper control of their officals.
Either way today’s papers are grim reading for A Clunking Fist (Anagram of “Fact: Sulking In”.
BBC News 24 has Kevin Maguire reviewing the papers! Enuf said!!!!
8. 2 minutes in and no mention yet of Greengate!
Speaker Martin’s position was bad before this, but he can’t survive the General Election now. Goodbye to him.
The Acting Met Chief was one of the favourites for the job before, but he ignored Boris Johnson’s good advice and made a terrible error of judgment anyway. Goodbye to his prospects of getting the job permanently - he can’t have it without the support of the Tories and of the Mayor.
Gordon Brown and Jacqui Smith have so far made the “knew nothing, saw nothing, said nothing” line stick. They are not much damaged, since the “police state” line was already running against them after the 42 days fiasco, so no real change there. But they have royally upset the press, including the Mail which was a bit of a Brownie until now, so there will be a price to pay there.
If Galley is being held uncharged in a safe-house and helped by the police to avoid the media, he must be there voluntarily. This suggests that he has damaging evidence. If so,Labour and the police will not be unhappy to see the media circus heavily critical, as the retractions would be very damaging to the Conservatives and provide a field day for BBC and Sky.This would be a defence for the police and Speaker Martin, and provide Labour with a platform for attacking the opposition.The Conservatives may be walking through a minefield and must find out if possible what Galley is going to say when he eventually meets the press.I hope I am wrong.
8. 4 minutes in and the only political mention so far is the Clegg story.
Incredible - BBC review the sunday papers with Kevin Maguire and no mention of Greengate at all!!!
The Observer editorial is spot on - and not pleasant reading for Brown.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/30/damian-green-conservatives1
13 to be fair to them,it is hard to spot the story - it being tucked away on the front pages of a number of papers.
11
In view of the fact that Galley is a committed Conservative there is obviously a suspicion, he deliberately worked himself into a position, where he could leak.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1090564/Revealed-How-civil-servant-accused-Shadow-Minister-row-ran-election-Tories.html
I have no time for Al-Beeb, but they did lead [on their web-site] with Cammers until recently. It was only the resignation of the Home Secretary that pushed him off the top.
Unfortunately that Home Secretary was Indian. Maybe our “honourable” members could learn something from our former colonies…?
16. Listen to yourself man!
The bloke is only 26 years of age. You think he delibratly worked for the home office to leak information?
I notice Coldstone that you don’t condemn the arreast of an MP, who is holding the government to account.
When Brown held THATCHER/ MAJOR to account does that mean he should be arreasted?
The difference is of course Brown is an evil and calculating man where as John Major was an honourable man in politics!
16 Obviously, legislation is clearly needed to prevent Conservatives holding any office of any importance.
They may be some lowly jobs that Tories can occupy, but they can’t be trusted with anything more serious than the menial. I suggest coldstone, that you, Mark Senior and Gabble, draft some appropriate legislation.
Roger can help you when he has finished sampling every restaurant that is in the Michelin Guide.
Stephen Pound doing sterling work to play the whole thing down on the Sky review
Another Balls-up.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5258473.ece
14 The Prime Minister’s silence over the Green affair - on a matter of profound importance for the operation of Parliamentary democracy - contrasts markedly with his finding time to write personally to each of the X Factor contestants. Pitiful.
How have Mandy/Campbell allowed that to happen?
16. Outrageous - no government office should be employing comservatives - arrest any more that are found at once!!
On behalf of Scott P (from previous thread)
“From the BBC
John O’Connor, former head of the London police unit, the flying squad, told BBC Radio 5Live he found it difficult to believe the government didn’t know about the investigation.
He said: “If the prime minister and the home secretary were unaware of this police activity - then they must be utterly incompetent.
“And if they were aware of it then that makes them really quite dangerous. So I think whatever way, whatever path they choose it doesn’t put them in a good light.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7757063.stm
by Scott P November 30th, 2008 at 8:11 am “
24 - it all comes down that it shouldn’t have happened. So nobody’s got any defence, because the fact that it did can’t be explained away.
Someone posted yesterday that Gordon Brown was Labour’s Nixon and there is a certainly definite nixonian feel reading todays press. Politically and personality wise the description certainly seems apt.
As for Clegg…..
BTW, anyone reckon the Treasury ‘mole’ is probably someone VERY high up in the Department? Candidates including the Chancellor.
It is important that the government is held to account, I deplore the fact Green was arrested. Much of the information that Green revealed should have been in the public domain anyway, governments of all political stripe are far to secretive.
However, if this man set about, (its possible) putting himself into a postion, where he could serve the aims of the party of which he is a member, that is wrong. It would be equally wrong, if as a member of the Labour Party, he did the same thing to a Conservative government.
Old fashioned I may be, but I also believe, if you are placed in a position of trust, you respect that trust. If you find yourself handling information, which goes against your conscience, you should resign, not leak.
Yet more evidence of Govt falling apart
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/30/idcards-civilliberties
28 - Yes but that does not mean Damian Green should be arrested.
24 Big news - Gordon’s lost The Sweeney!
One other random thought on Green - if he was arrested in a car park, how did they know where to find him? Was he under surveillance? Or did they have a tracker on his car?
Just wundrin’…
From the Guardian:
“Last night it was clear that several senior cabinet ministers had expressed their anger. The matter is understood to have caused heated debate when the cabinet met in Leeds on Friday.”
28 But, you never seem to criticise anyone other than the Tories, coldstone, so please don’t masquerade as an impartial, high-minded and equal-handed observer of the scene.
Nixonian is the correct adjective for you.
27. Yes it is.
28. I should imagine the 26 year old will find getting another job very difficult!
Unless the Tories give him a job!
#28, Old fashioned I may be, but I also believe, if you are placed in a position of trust, you respect that trust.
God, you are deluded! Blair politicised the Civil Service when - a year after his election in 1997 - he paraded the senior “secretaries” in the gardens of No. 10. And the sheep roundly applauded the Scoots C*nt!
Karma, as they say. Thankfully certain former Euro-Communists on this site will have plans to run to “friendly” countries come the next election. Pete-the-punter, any odds on NickP becoming a Swiss-citizen…?
The Radio talk show yesterday night devoted an hour to Greengate.
Two callers said they were life-long Labour voters, but this was the last straw.
There was a long interview with the local journalist (Murrey?) who had been charged in a similar way for leaking extremely innocuous stories. The case was thrown out by a court on the day Green was arrested. Here, it was Thames Valley Police wasting public money.
Carol Vorderman reviewing papers on AM!
33
I deplore the fact Green was arrested. Much of the information that Green revealed should have been in the public domain anyway, governments of all political stripe are far to secretive.
You did read it did you?
Hmmm I wonder if you’ve ever commented on the fact that there are more than one poster on here, (too numerous to mention) who never ever criticise the Tories.
If a civil servant, leaks against a government, and he/she happens to be a member of the opposition party, there is bound to be a suspicion as to what their motivies are.
28. 39. The whiff of bullsh*t very strong this morning…
Meanwhile Darling already hinting at the need for a further stimulus package in the Guardian…
The Vorderman kicking up a stink about Greengate. Saying Brown made his name doing this and the goverment are not being honest in this situation.
Go Carol!
Vorderman making a good fist of Green-gate. Highlighting Labour hypocrisy on the issue. “Astonising” “Can’t beleive Smith & Brown didn’t know” “Disgusting”
Go get ‘em girl.
Ah - Marr hurries them off the subject. Quelle Surprise.
I have been very disappointed in the LD’s lack of progress and the opportunities lost under Clegg’s LD leadership - this gaffe is appalling and very “emotionally unintelligent”!
Marr trying to move the fulminating Carol V off Green-gate - an arrest which she says is “disgusting….”
39 - I agree with your post at 28 completely.
Carol’s kicking off about the PBR now. I don’t think she’s Labour!
I’ve always loved the Vord…
The Vord for Chancellor! At least she has basic arithmetic….
39 - I agree with your post at 28 completely.
by antifrank November 30th, 2008 at 9:12 am
I love your sarcasm. Beats my pair-of-deuces!
48 Well, she pretty much hammered the PBR in 2 sentences. Loved the “lads on the building site” line. And her exposition of 1.2m of Labour 1.8m newly created jobs being in the public sector was deadly - she should be writing Cameron’s PMQ pieces.
Anyone noticed that a few of the papers (best example the Sunday Times) have “police sources” claiming they “already have enough evidence to charge Green”.
Which begs the question: “Why don’t they?”
Reading closer this is apparently simply on the basis that he is known to have received the documents, and the civil servant also arrested (but not charged) has claimed that he “induced” him to pass on the documents. If the police think that that is enough evidence to secure conviction then they need to go on remedial courses.
51. And the police spinning seems eerily similar to that of New Labour. Almost as if there were some kind of overlap between the two…
The Vord is at a loose end now. Top Conservative job in Lords I would say.
Marr obviously in favour of arresting anyone who mentions his own indiscretions.
Here is the top ten list of stories from Politics Home this morning
1. An assault on all our rights David Cameron NotW
2. The police are a law unto themselves John Rentoul, Independent
3. Politicians are always leaking Andrew Rawnsley, Observer
4. This arrest of an MP is a threat to us all Shami Chakrabarti, Times
5. Brown’s government looks oppressive Matthew d’Ancona, Telegraph
6. Prime Minister’s silence betrays Parliament Observer
7. Who really killed new Labour? Martin Ivens, Times
8. Nation in danger of drowning in a sea of debt Independent
9. We’ll bleed to death in Afghanistan Peter Hitchens, Mail
10. How Brown has created two Britains Michael Fallon, Telegraph
How many of them are positive for either the government or the Labour Party? (clue, the answer is < 1)
After a decade of annoyance at Vorderman for various adverts and the like, i’m going to have to change my opinion. That was a great bit of hammering the Govt.
53. Didn’t Gyles Brandrith do that TV program as well?
I remember the w@ankers outake! It is the way that brandreath said it as well i found funny!
It’s all a bit suspicious the lack of unplanned discussion of Greengate on all the paper reviews (including Sky). Almost as if someone in the Police has warned them off with nods and winks and they’ve all fallen for it.
Ken, Ken, Ken - a tie with a denim shirt? Dear oh dear…..
He actually looks like he’s stolen Dennis Skinner’s clothes!
39. Many of the leakers in the previous Tory governments were Labour sympathisers/members. There was a case late in the Major government of a Labour party member who “leaked” a document claiming that there was secret planning to dismantle the entire welfare state. When it was realised that he had just typed the thing himself on civil service stationary, it was quietly dropped by everyone….
51. “I could beat you in a fight. I’m hard. But I need to tie my shoelaces, and I need to go home after that, so I will let you go this time.” - its back to the playground.
Shame on you Woody (56)for ever doubting the goddess.
57 That Countdown outtake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gBXPUSXGWs
51. Maybe the inducement wasnt monetary, but the promise of a job? And the police want to prove this? There’s only one problem, I can’t see DG actually promising something like that. So the fishing expedition is to find evidence of some sort of promise being made.
Jacqui Smith talking complete balls on ID Cards.
Completely off-topic, but they have re-opened the Leopold Cafe in Bombay/Mumbai. Pictures on SkyNews show clients drinking cold-beers and - for the children - Coca-Cola.
That must hurt the supporters of Jihadism. Another Brown mobile on order…?
64. Quelle surprise
63. And he got turned down for the job - not a very good bribe really.
Calamity Clegg!!! bwahahahaha
“I would think about it [a coalition],” he admitted. “But only if the Tories lose. And I can’t imagine that.”
The Lib Dem leader was so wrapped up in his reshuffle he had to be reminded about what he was due to do in Scotland. Just before landing, Inverness MP Alexander reminded him: “Right, you’re giving a talk to the Inverness Chamber of Commerce.”
Marr isn’t asking any of the right questions.
Smith claiming that this is an investigation into leaks that didn’t happen!
Smith: there is nothing wrong with government being called to account. There was a systematic leak from a sensitive department. We didn’t know what had been leaked.
Pathetic excuses. Someone should send her a biography of Churchill.
Great news for the Tories (if not yet for Britaian): Labour are pressing on with ID cards….
…and that ungracious lump of a Home Secretary won’t even apologise to Damien Green.
Withdraw 69 - he’s got Smith tied up in semantics.
This does feel like it could do for Brown. Bugging of opposition mps, arrest, Brown not speaking out. The BBC are not too sure how to handle it after the whole gilligan thing so they are letting everyone else pitch in first. But they will in the end. This country feels like we are sleepwalking for all the world towards dictatorship.
Douglas Carswell contacted the Speakers Office to clarify whether Michael Martin sanctioned the raid on Damian Green’s office and was told that “there is a process to be followed that was followed”.
Shane Greer - http://www.shanegreer.com/ - can’t get the Speakers Office to clarify which process.
Can one of our well informed MP contributors please tell us where we can find the relevant Standing Orders in relation to the process.
They cannot possibly be classified information.
Presumably MPs were expected to vote on any new process which allows the police to raid the offices of a Privy Counsellor in the royal Palace of Westminster?
When did they do so? Who voted in favour - who against?
Nick?
“Did you know in advance that a Con MP was being investigated?”
“I didn’t know of arrest in advance”
It sounds to me like Smith has acknowledged that she knew Green was under investigation.
The Home Secretary lying. Badly.
Very evasive….
She seems to think that because there were a lot of leaks from a department the investigation is appropriate. That’s the only content to her repetition of the phrase ’systematic leak’.
I think Smith will probably have to go this week plus perhaps Brown given his initial statements.
Failing to understand the difference between an internal disciplinary investigation and a criminal investigation involving the police
63. One thing I hope this sorry affair does bring home both to the Tory leadership and Tory supporters in the country is just how imperative it is to remove this Labour government from office.
It’s pretty clear now that New Labour and its circle of placemen are going to try almost anything to cling on to power, abusing their power without compunction at every turn. The lid is being lifted on the extent to which supposedly independent institutions have become politicised and subservient to the executive - and it’s very disturbing for anyone who believes in an open society.
Moreover, the corrupt clique at the heart of this want to take the whole process much further, with ID cards, increased surveillance, eroding the right to jury trial. It’s chilling stuff.
I’d be astonished if Damian Green is a Privy Counsellor as he’s never been in govt.
Many opposition spokesmen are made PCs.
She admits that none of the publicised leaks affected national security. Her case is based on the idea that National Security material could have been leaked.
The fact is that the former doesn’t require a criminal investigation. And the latter doesn’t either.
80, hmm.
Brown will cling onto his job for dear life. He won’t go unless he is absolutely forced out. He might well axe Smith to try and assuage public anger. When Harman and the Abrahams business came to light he was less than fulsome in his support for her.
So there we have it, the official and only line from Smith again, is “I nay saw, I nay knew, I nay think it is wrong to arrest an MP and raid parliament using anti-terror police, therefore I nay apologise”, but I did know of the investigation into leaks.
Is that it, they have had 4 days to come up with better spin that that!
83 It would seem that Damian Green is NOT a Privy Councillor:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-current-members-of-the-Privy-Council
85. So we are in ‘thoughtcrime’ territory now…
89, just as well we have Big Sister to look after us all.
They’re mad. They really are stupid beyond belief. Are they secret masochists trying to get back to a 28 point deficit?
75. A friend who is a civil servant made told me that he would actively oppose a Tory government because only the current lot knew “how it all worked”. It was only when I pointed out that we lived in a democracy that he began to question “culture”.
It wasn’t policies he was opposed to - just the idea of a different government seemed totally alien to him. As far as he was concerned the Labour Party was the top layer/customer for the Civil Service. Hence the Tories were the competition.
Quite terrifying in the implications and the naivete it implies.
84 - Leaders of the Tories and LibDems yes….but very unusual for others: I can’t think of any in fact, but happy to be proven wrong.
Brown will probably use it as an opportunity to bring Blunkett or fatty Clarke back after Smith has been despatched. Alternatively he could shift Darling to the home office and make Mandelson C of E.
88. I was wrong.
Does that mean that Privy Counsellors are protected from the unwarranted intrusion of the police in the royal Palace, but our other elected Representatives are not?
All the more reason for us to be told the precise wording of the “process” which was, apparently, followed.
85. It *could* be possible that Jackie is about to start a coup and abolish democracy. Obviously we need a police raid - just to check all her personal papers.
You are right, it is chilling. I was against ID cards anyway, but i am now absolutely determined never to have one . Brown can take his ID cards and shove them where the sun doesnt shine (just thought i’ d’ elevate the level of debate)…
75. Sounds like a case of “S*&*! You mean we don’t have a written procedure? Right, tell them we can’t release the procedure.”
She also stated ‘Home Secretaries do not confirm or deny what warrant papers they hsve signed….. we are into conspiracy territory’ when asked about bugging Green’s blackberry - no denial, Marr missed it.
93 - Nope, Chancellors must always sit in the Commons.
93. I see you are applying the Brown always makes the worst possible choice theory?
I notice MORI is still just making it up as they go along. I will be as dismissive of this poll as all their others as I’m not for cherry picking according to ones that say what I want.
On topic, this is playing out as even more of a disaster for the Labour government than we all originally thought. Of course, it is worst for our democracy which has been shown up by the bonkers coppers over at St James’ Park.
This is a situation that I like to use the phrase “looking down both barrels.”
either Smith/ Brown knew and are lying, will get found out;
they didn’t know- police are out of control, ergo they are out of control.
Really desperate stuff all round.
The Clegg stuff though is a real hoot to cheer us all up a bit.
I do love the way the Government defends costs of ID cards on basis 70% of cost is for passports and the expenditure will be covered by fees - fees to a Government for something you have to have to access services, with criminal sanctions if you don’t keep information up to date are called “taxes” and the expenditure remains public expenditure however you play it.
In fact as everyone will have to have an ID card the fees could be called by their old name “poll tax”.
So she knew of the bugging? It just gets worse. She has to go and so does Brown. And what if Darling is the treaury mole? Would it be the same mole that fed Peston his information? God - this is getting hot- could be dynamite political week. HMQs speech too- boycott by opposition MP’s, constitutional crisis, anyone?
IMO Labour have a very authoritrian shadow agenda. Ministers have even spoken about political blogs having undue inflience and the need to control them stop them.
This is the sort of thing China do! People do not realise what a vils and statist agenda the government have. They need ousting asap.
So the line this morning is “I knew there was an investigation, which is right and proper, but I did not know any of the operational details, which is also right and proper”…
Can that hold?
Did someone mention Porridge? My favourite was the campaign to get a royal pardon for Blanco (David Jason). My second favourite was the betting scam in which Godber was bribed by both sides to throw a boxing match.
why didnt she just blame the police and apologise??? kill the story…the answer of course is because she had to have known in advance and the police would leak that fact. Chilling that she didnt deny bugging Green….but why didnt Marr bring up the Wilson doctrine?
96-james.a couldn’t have put it better myself. Well said.
On Clegg, the main problem for him is that much as he would like it not to be the case, he is not the leader of a big enough party for him to go about demoting and sacking people. He only has a very small group to pick his spokespeople from.
But now that the “real opposition” thing has been put to bed for another few parliaments (unless Labour come up with a few more Greengate things) they don’t really matter very much.
88 - not many front benchers from the opposition who have never been in a previous actual Cabinet are.
George Osborne is not in. Nor David Cameron appararently.
11 - Don’t be ridiculous, David Cameron has been a PC since about a week after becoming leader of the opposition.
111 - Cameron will definitely be a PC as will Clegg. But not Osborne or any of the front bench who, as you say, have not been Cabinet Ministers in the previous Government (like Hague).
110 - he has a good pool of talent. Just imagine when twenty percent of the MPs were mavericks called Cyril and Clement. And then there was Peter Bessel. And Jere…..
When Labour sought-out Aikens and Archer they probably did the country - England that is - a favour. God help any Labour-placemen, F1-fascists, and other bribe-seekers/takers.
Shame on you all. I am sure that Shami will just shrug her shoulders and say what-goes-around…!
Smith and no doubt zanulab’s line of “we cannot intervene in a police investigation” on this will play very badly. She was also using the authoritarian line of its not what has happened - in terms of the public leaks, but what might have happened.
Marr who is usually a lab stooge was clearly for him getting pretty annoyed with Klebb’s response to his questions. Most journalists will see this as an attack on what they do and if all zl can say its nothing to do with us, will really go for Brown & Co
If Smiths approach is the only line that zl could work up over the last 2 days, with Moses and Mandy on the team, they really are toast
John O I think you’ll find Alan Beith is / has been a PC.
I take it everyone opposed to ID cards on this thread has already renewed their passports?
http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/Page76.asp
A list of PC members
112 - sorry - I just missed him on the list. He will be - disclaimer - I did say “apparently”. Some like Ming I think got the PC before leadership. Damien Green - not yet!
118 - yes, renewed it last year
Looking forward to more leaks. Can we also get odds on which of the current crop of Labour Mps will end up in jail after the election. Would love to see some of them behind bars!
Why renew passport?
113 There isn’t a hard and fast rule about which memers of the opposition are invited to be PCs. Look at the list in 119 and you’ll find Oliver Letwin and Teresa May among others, neither of whom have ever held government office.
However Damien Green is not there.
88,
That list is not up to date. It states “2004″ but has 3 PCs dated 2005. None from any later.
It’s from before Cameron’s election to Leader of the Opposition, and quite possibly from before the last election.
Plaid and SNP leaders also PCs
117 - He is indeed. So thank you. But as I mentioned, it is very unusual.
(As he became a PC in 1992 when overtly political honours were still made, he was doubtless nominated by Paddy Ashdown, perhaps in preparation for membership of the new Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee that was established in 1994.)
Smith going on about ID cards whilst all this S*it is hitting the fan shows just how out of touch they are. The decay of the Labour party is increasing exponentially.
I wonder if Cameron will either write to Brown or ask at PMQ’s ” whether any telephone conversations were tapped where a conservative MP or anyone from CCHQ was part of the call ,and also ask how many Labour MP’s phones have been tapped for good measure.
#118, yep: January!
What ever happened to the 15-year businessman’s version. [Or have our Euro-fascists/Euro-Commies banned that too...?]
If, as is not implausible, the next election yields a Tory government (with, perhaps, Mr Green as a minister in that government), it is interesting to speculate on what will be made of the precedent established. We could guess that opposition, never easy, will be virtually impossible.
It will be interesting to see if Harriet Harman follows the line Jacqui Smith used, or whether it has been finessed in the last hour.
On ID cards, I noticed Marr failed to ask the Home Secretary how useful the cards are with no scanners…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/30/idcards-civilliberties
123 — Because, should Labour win another term (God forbid!) they will start issuing ID cards / registering you on the database to everyone applying for or renewing a passport, whether you want the card or not.
Getting / Renewing your passport *ASAP* delays the uptake of the scheme and incidentally saves you money down the road as well — because you’ll have to fork out for the card with your passport.
Get / Renew your passport *ASAP*
128. Lord Steyn’s comments some time ago never seem more appropriate than today - the biggest risk to our democratic society isn’t islamic terrorists (or any other kind) but politicians like Brown and Smith.
118 When is the suggested cutoff date to avoid ID cards?
129 Rather than 15 year passports, businessmen now get two 10 year passports instead.
133. Too true - all they want is to make things “more efficient”. A major problem is that they have a contempt for the precedents that make this country what it is. These are not, of course, all wonderful things. But in a country with a largely unwritten constitution, “not the done thing” is rather important.
I now think it is time for a written constitution. 4 pages of all the things that the government is not allowed to do. Simple, declarative English. Oh, and some hideous penalties for those who break it.
130. Green as Minister for the Police in a Justice Ministry run by David Davis
131 I was waiting for the “one scanner” point to be raised too! Perhaps he held off - or perhaps he was just poorly briefed by his staff.
Thanks for that, i will be renewing my passport as soon as possible.
This arrest also makes me see the “stasi” database where all emails phone calls are to be logged at GCHQ in whole new light.
136 Can you really see them letting us have a Constitution? No chance. Gulags and Re-Education Centres maybe.
134 — 2011 I believe, but personally I wouldn’t leave it that long and especially so if Labour gets in again.
138 Marr did mention in his question about the current trial the lack of scanners but didn’t major on it.
Good letter in today’s ‘Sunday Telegraph’ asking why people object to Hazel Blears learning Spanish at taxpayers’ expense. After all, says the letter, at considerably greater public expense, Labour ministers have been learning Economics since 1997.
Anyone seen Macavity? He’s been awfully quiet since the PBR (apart from writing to X factor contestants). Wonder why?
134: EdP @ 10:37
“When is the suggested cutoff date to avoid ID cards?”
June 2010
143 - With a marked lack of success, so far.
I should of course point out that the odds do not favour Labour returning to power and continuing the ID cards scheme, whilst the evidence is that the Conservatives will pull the plug on it.
136. I don’t think they do want to make things ‘more efficient’. Some of their dupes in the police and elsewhere might believe that, but it is merely a cover story for New Labour’s real purpose - to expand the coercive power of the state and use the extra powers for their own advantage.
On your other point, there’s no doubt that serious constitutional change is needed now, to radically reduce the power of the executive over other state agencies and the public at large. I’m not sure what the best approach is re. codification/embedded statutes etc., but it needs to proceed from the assumption that elected politicians cannot be trusted to operate with the degree of latitude they have done up until now and need to be subject to much stronger checks on their authority.
145 Maybe he’s up to his neck in it, and hopes that by adopting a ‘La la la la, fingers in ears, say nothing, do nothing strategy’ it will all blow over?
148 - Unfortunately this whole argument rests on what is ACTUALLY going on at the moment. Coz you need to distinguish between Elected Govt and elected politicians.
After all, it is the right of elected politicians (to hold the executive to account) that has got everyone so angry.
The Smith Institute is in the news again -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5258473.ece
150. I should think it’s obvious from my post I am talking about curbing the power of the executive, not individual MPs.
A small voting sample, but indicative of the level of trust in this government
http://poll.pollcode.com/lVT_result?v
As someone from an area where the Libdems are the main opposition I was fascinated by the overheard remarks of Nick Clegg. I assume it is authentic as the writer appears to be the listener and he even gives the seat number. A few comments stand out.
1. Clegg expects the Tories to win the next election. Asked about a coalition he remarked that it would only be considered if the Tories lost ‘ and I can’t imagine that’.
2. The rivalry with Huhne has worsened. This has the potential to undermine Clegg especially if, as expected, it does badly in 2010. Mind you after these indiscretions I expect Huhne is dusting off his ‘calamity Clegg’ leaflets.
3. The high esteem for David Laws is spot on. He really is wasted on the Libdems. He’s full of good ideas and he has the drive to actually implement them if he took office. If Cameron wins in 2010 I’d like him to be sufficiently magnanimous to offer Laws a position.
149
I suspect there is a root and branch review of who knew what and who said what to whom going on , both in Govt and the old bill. They know that there are going to be some very awkard questions asked, and dissembling in the HOC will be treated with derision on all sides of the house (except for the ZANU Labour executive)
I think all sorts of stories are going to emerge now, the papers will be gunning for the government after this arrest and it will be open season on the government.
Nick Cohen makes a good point about all these references to ZaNuLabour, Stasi etc.
“Can we agree that Britain is not Zimbabwe and then say: ‘So what?’ The unelected Robert Mugabe is worse than the unelected Gordon Brown, but that does not excuse the assaults on the rights of Parliament and the freedom of the press. Indeed, the descent into hyperbole plays into Brown’s hands and allows him to dismiss valid criticisms as hysteria.”
His column is IMHO a powerful indictment of the creep of authoritarianism because he doesn’t use hyperbole but does reflect on the underlying character revealed by the approach of the state to dissent. He does use the Zimbabwe comparisn but in a measured way.
The scary bit is what has become the truth, that “the judiciary is no longer a guarantor of liberty”.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/30/damian-green-conservatives
BTW - I didn’t realise that Mr Dacre’s bete noire Mr Justice Eady was so “respected” that the USA is passing a law specifically to strike down application of his Libel judgements in the USA. Leading the world yet again.
144. Did you notice the Spanish bird he wrote to got voted off last night (according to my kids…honest). Talk about the kiss of death from Mcbottle!!
If Gordon knows how to operate a shredder, it’s possible he’s been drafted in to help the ‘destruction’ team this weekend, and is too busy to comment!
118. I take it everyone opposed to ID cards on this thread has already renewed their passports?
Er… no ??? Why should I? My passport expired in 1993. I haven’t been abroad since 1990. I don’t expect to have any desire to go abroad in the foreseeable future. Why would I want a passport, let alone want to “renew” one? If I had any desire to go abroad, then you would of course have a point; but I don’t, so you don’t.
153 “Do you think that Jacqui Smith or Gordon Brown had prior knowledge of Damian Green’s arrest?”
The number of people who think “No”? A big, fat, five-bellied “ZERO”. Everybody in that poll thinks that either Gordon or Jacqui (or both) are lying about what they knew.
Andrew Marr didn’t ask Jacqui Smith whether she was aware that a frontbench Tory was being investigated (as opposed to be about to be arrested). From Jacqui Smith’s body language either she doesn’t believe what she is saying or she’s hiding something. The Government is blundering horribly on this.
It’s a bit expensive to renew your passport these days, what with the Govt hiking the price to pay the start up costs for ID cards.
162 - He did ask, repeatedly, and she obfuscated and kept changing the question
Harriet Harman “very concerned”!!!
Clegg will be in deep trouble with his colleagues this morning. His phone will be hot. It is hard to see how he can keep key people like Huhne on board after this. His behaviour was either arrogant (I don’t care if I’m overheard) or grossly incompetent (I didn’t think anyone would be listening or interested). Thank goodness he isn’t a PC and privy to real secrets.
Hapless Harriet positioning to take over from Tractors…..
Harman desperately distancing herself from Jacqui Smith, whilst just about staying within Govt line.
Re Coldstone @ 16 - if thats true I very much look forward to seeing the many Labour people who have wormed their way into our institutions and acted as moles, being investigated.
164 - No, his questions were all around an arrest. He definitely missed a trick. And there’s a lot more to hear about phone-tapping.
170 - Well i heard differently. (see posts 76/77)
My sister told me that Jacqui Smith had terrible bags under her eyes on the Andrew Marr show. Could somebody recommend something to help Jacqui sleep - other than a clear conscience.
167. … and David “Machine-gun them!” Blunkett getting ready for a return to the Home Office?
165 - Given her personal history, Harriet Harman has to walk a knife-edge. She would look ridiculous if she dismissed Tory concerns.
167.. as leader of the oppsition?
162 Jacqui Smith’s whole body language at start of interview was one of fear and apprehension ( I think Mark Oaten looked more at ease in his first interviews after The Story than did Jacqui Smith), not sure whether Marr starting on a different subject helped as she was then left wondering when he’d get back to the subject and whether her prepared defence would work.
The is a very careful use of selective replies and aspersions that Damian Green has a serious case to answer, though of course she hasn’t least idea of what the police case is, oh no she knows nothing, police operations are quite invisible to her.
173 Rearranging the deckchairs will not be enough to placate the electorate. They’ve gone too far this time.
175 I think she senses this could - could - topple Gordon….
171 - we certainly agree about the next point that needs nailing down. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if your deduction is correct.
Morning all.
My passport expires in April 2010, so I don’t think there’s any urgency to renew it early…
———–
160: JohnLoony: I haven’t been abroad since 1990. I don’t expect to have any desire to go abroad in the foreseeable future.
What, not even to the utopia of North Korea?
———–
The one disappointing thing about Greengate is that it’s shot the Gabble = MacShane meme in the head, as MacShane has actually been talking sense on the issue…
178 - Yep she’s been paying lipservice to Jacqui Smith’s line, but basically running a mile.
I’m afraid my misgivings about Clegg which I had at the time of the leadership election haven’t been been in any way disproved by his first year in office. Huhne was the moral winner of that contest given that he fell short by the tiniest of margins and in the face of most of the party “establishment” backing Clegg. It is arguable in fact as the sharp decline in membership already mentioned by a previous poster that we have since gone backwards despite the best efforts of Vince Cable. Public do work on media perceptions of party leaders and right now all most of them know about Clegg is his bragging rights over the 31 women and now the fact he likes to knife colleagues in the back and oh yes he thinks the Tories will win the next election.
178 If an independent (and trusted) Security organisation sweeps the HoC for bugs, and finds some then all hell will break loose. I wonder if some suspiciously well dressed cleaners have been ‘tidying up’ since Thursday?
“We’re being ruled by a clique of irresponsible, innumerate charlatans. Brown and his circle of sycophants know little of economics, and even less about responsibility”
Liam Halligna S Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/3535942/Browns-UK-borrowing-binge-is-now-dangerous-bravado.html
A good morning. As well as the Vord at the Gord, George Galloway was very good on his paper review.
182 Has the number of colleagues Nick Clegg has knifed in the back reached thirty yet?!?
186
Just shows how good the Lib Dem MPs are at selecting winners…
Ming
then Clegg
And the next one?
187 - The could complete a sort of trilogy of horror by following ‘Geriatric’ (Ming) and ‘Halfwit’ (Clegg) with ‘Lunatic’ by selecting Evan Harris?
Or they could just see sense and get Charlie K back in again.
187. Lembit Opik!
I have no doubt the cheeky devil will have a crack given the chance!
From the Mails piece on the Home office “Mole”
“Mr Galley’s parents refused to talk about their son yesterday. Outside his £240,000 home, his father said:….Mr Galley is thought to have been taken to a secret address by Home Office officials after police raided his £166,000 flat at 5.50am on November 19.”
Fascinating details - has the Mail only one thing on its tiny mind?!
186 Are there that many available?
157. Well Ken Clarke had it about right when he said current events were reminiscent of Nixon’s America. This does indeed have the capacity to be a Watergate-style episode, leading to the resignations of Smith and perhaps even Brown.
But does the British press have the guts and determination to rise from its recent embarassingly supine posture and pursue the story hard enough and consistently enough to bring such a result about?
182. RobC - I agree, I am not rushing to renew my membership at present!
190 ‘He was driven away in the £19,000 black Vauxhall Omega’
191 He certainly seems to be on a mission to find them! If they have a back, Clegg’ll stab it….
182 We also know he enjoys setting fire to hairy cacti
Dominic Grieve: This Government is, in truth, dying…
Thought it was strange we hadn’t heard from Ms Chakrabarti on the Green incident, here are her comments in todays Times.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5258087.ece
Interesting stuff from Harriet Harman. Investigation after the police enquiry completes. Given that Damian Green is not due to be interviewed again until February, an attempt to kick this into the long grass? Slim chance I think
194 and this morning currently having a £1.99 Mcdonalds all day breakfast
198 - I like her use of the term ‘Ministry of the Interior’!
I wonder if it is pertinent in all this that Jacqui Smith has never been an opposition MP. (and never will be either!)
You must admit Clegg has a point. Webb does come across as way to the left. Was he a rebel over the 4% imcome tax cut? Surely looks like a demotion…
Julia gets patronised. Well she is only twelve for God’s sake.
Huhne does not get that much stick. Perhaps Huhne does need more empathy. Clegg has been silly, but honestly…
199 - I’m not sure. I think it was the best she could do without formally breaking ranks with the Govt line. Of course the police investigation could be wound up tomorrow if the DPP tell them they’ve no chance of a prosecution.
There are reports of divisions in the Cabinet (whether they be on political grounds or constitutional grounds).
203, the Lib Dems should try to seize the initiative against Labour now. Kudos to Clegg for quickly attacking the arrest of Green. If Labour slump in the polls, the Lib Dems need to really hammer the government and seek to overhaul them (not an impossibility, although unlikely).
Not a good time to distract the party by slagging everyone off.
Interesting question from a comment on an Independent thread…
If either Jacqui Smith or Gordon Brown has been less than scrupulously honest about this affair, could they be charged with misconduct in public office?
190. It is very odd when the purported value of somebody’s property is put in an article when it has no relevance. £166,000 is a bit precise too, how does the Mail know? Have the RICS been round to size it up?
180. No, not even the DPRK. I have personal (i.e. non-political) reasons for not wanting to travel abroad, and you are right to use the word “even”. If ever I found myself being persuaded to want to go abroad and get a passport (i.e. a desire more overwhelming than the reasons mentioned above), then it would indeed be for the purpose of visiting the DPRK.
203 Webb backed Clegg in the leadership election - in fact the votes he brought with him were probably enough to tip the scales Clegg’s way. Julia Goldsworthy was one of Clegg’s main supporters in his campaign.
206 Or perhaps the police could be charged with wasting police time?
199 Agreed - the constitutional issues arise now, in the Duncan Sandys case, that Ken Clarke referred to, when he was told he might be prosecuted he went to the Committee of Standards ad Privileges and they made the decision then and there that he was protected by Parliamentary Privilege and the case stopped.
Harriet Harmann might be Leader of the Commons but she isn’t it’s Supreme Governor - decisions of the Commons are in the hands of MPs, I can’t imagine Sir George Young would agree to wait until the Metropolitan Police drop the case.
@197:
Nonsense! That carcass is already partially decomposed…
A few years ago I saw a cartoon strip showing an alien spaceship descending and landing on Earth in the middle of nowhere, with only a local yokel as a witness. An alien got out of the spaceship, punched the man in the face, climbed back in his spaceship, and took off and flew away. The caption said “He never knew what hit him”. If the aliens do ever come here, I think it would be fun if such a thing were to happen to Jacqui Smith, or perhaps Speaker Martin.
212 Seriously - at what point does the stench of decomposition become too much for some Labour MP’s to take and cause them to walk away? They needn’t defect to another party - just become independent “Crossbenchers”. But how they voted on a No Confidence motion might determine whether they had a political future…
I’d really like a smattering of people like Frank Field to be a genuine non-affiliated voice in the Commons, saying the painful stuff that needs to be said, without fear of party retribution.
213 It was the great Larsen.
213. Ha ha! That was Gary Larson IIRC! Very good
Morning all
Still trying to get my head around “Greengate” or whatever we’re calling all this (not helped by jetlag). I’m reminded of Ponting, Shayler and other instances where Governments are assiduous in wanting to track down those who “leak” unfavourable information to the Opposition.
On the other hand, the Police response seems incredibly heavy-handed and while I’m certain individuals knew or were told Green was going to be questionned, the manner of the questionning and the intrusive nature may not have been recognised or appreciated.
I also find it hard to believe Jacqui Smith wasn’t told and her Sir Humphrey-esque attitude that she didn’t “need to know” sounds risible. We also know that the discrete flow of information from parts of the Government machine is part of the political “game”. No Government has ever been watertight and we all know the leaking of favourable information/statistics happens all the time.
My fear is that the Conservatives will now take the line that once in power instead of de-politicising the Civil Service they will simply re-orient the political alignment in their direction.
On other matters, Nick Clegg’s remarks, if accuarately reported, are regrettable in the extreme. I suspect he is finding the job far more frustrating and difficult than he envisaged (he should have spoken to Paddy, CK or Sir Menzies) but that’s no excuse. As for him expecting the Tories to win, well, I expect them to win too and have backed them accordingly. Doesn’t mean I think it will do the country an iota of good if it happens but I do recognise that a) they are the most popular option at present and b) they can’t be any worse than the current shambles.
166 Someone may already have told you by now - Nick Clegg is a Privy Counsellor.
199 Surely it’s in HMG’s interest to resolve the situation sooner, rather than leave it bubbling away for 3 months?
217. I suspect he is finding the job far more frustrating and difficult than he envisaged.
Clegg’s job is not difficulty! CK used to do it pissed!
Good comments this morning.
Going to look at “The Politics Show”, then I’ll join the fray. Lol
217 ‘My fear is that the Conservatives will now take the line that once in power instead of de-politicising the Civil Service they will simply re-orient the political alignment in their direction.’
I think they’ll have a battle on their hands to simply orientate the CS into a neutral position.
220. And kennedy was better at it!
Looks like it will be yellow taxi time for the LD’s as even Clegg says he think it unlikely the Tories will not win!
219. That depends entirely on public reaction to the spin. If the “there is more yet to be revealed, national security is at stake” line sticks then the longer the better. If the “police state” line sticks then the sooner the better, but I don’t see how the Labour party retreat gracefully from their current stance
203 But a substantial part of the Lib Dems is “way to the left”. Certainly of Orange Book types - it amazed me and shocked me at the time that Steve Webb supported Nick. The party, like the Tories and Labour, is a coalition. I have always assumed you are on the right of the party, and your comment makes sense in that context. By the way - good to see you back posting. How are you?
225 The other substantive point, of course, is that even if you disagree with Steve Webb’s political stance, to describe him as having no good ideas is just untrue!
Conservatives seem to be pursuing an interesting line about the lack of involvement of the DPP. Considering the widespread view seems to be that any prosecutions under the law being used will be near impossible, this is a highly pertinent issue.
The DPP would have probably warned them off an investigation on this basis and we wouldn’t be where we are today.
225 - Deliberately blundering in to be picked off… (
)
The LibDems are more of a “two-party party”, than a “broad coalition”
Outside his £240,000 home, his father said:….Mr Galley is thought to have been taken to a secret address by Home Office officials after police raided his £166,000 flat at 5.50am on November 19.”
that quote probably needs ammending to 200,000 and 160,000 it has after all been about 12 hours since it was printed.
224 It certainly looks as if they’re damned either way. I sense they’re now in a situation where the only option available is to ‘do the time for the crime’.
“204.There are reports of divisions in the Cabinet (whether they be on political grounds or constitutional grounds).
by alex November 30th, 2008 at 11:41 am”
Quite. That’s the key development (along with the stuff about Smith possibly knowing about the “bugging”.)
There must still be some sentient beings in the Cabinet. They must realise how bad this is getting - until and unless some serious evidence against Green is produced, which leads to a trial and conviction (chances of that <1%?) - this scandal has all the hallmarks of something that can tarnish and even ruin careers. Think Aitken, Archer, etc.
So the more sensible members of the Cabinet must be thinking:
“Right, we’re very likely to lose the election, and it might happen in the messiest way, with some of us being so damaged by Greengate we could never lead the party or aspire to high office again. Some of us might even be ejected from politics, or investigated by the police.
Perhaps its time to distance myself from the Brown regime..”
I’d be v surprised if some of the alarmed dissenting voices in the Cabinet didn’t belong to the Milibands, and Alexander, and maybe even Balls and Cooper - people with an eye to life in a post-Brown Labour party, rebuilding in Opposition.
229 Dacre still wants his K - those numbers would be amended upwards, in support of Darlings salvation of the Economy.
Talking of which was there a PBR this week? If so, it seems to have fallen down the news agenda.
222. Certainly there is going to have to be a mass clearout in some areas.
As a party member, I have been gravely disappointed by Clegg’s slip. I agree that making these comments on a public flight betrays gross carelessness.
I have called for Clegg to issue a public apology; the best means by which to restore confidence and a sense of unity to the party.
For anyone interested, my thoughts can be found in full at; http://www.currentvision.blogspot.com
225 - I am coping! Thanks!
Yes, I was also surprised Webb back Clegg. Yes, it was stupid to say he had no good ideas. I think he was even Orange Book. Yes, I am on the right of the party - it’s fair to say. These days, anyway. And liberal.
231 - That accounts for the splits on grounds of politics, Sean.
I do actually think Harman sounded quite genuine this morning on Sky. All those you named have never been Opposition MPs. I think the Harmans, Straws and Darlings of this world will be pretty uneasy. (Darling of course, hasn’t called the police into the Treasury as far as we know, for what are far more damaging leaks).
237 ‘Milibands, and Alexander, and maybe even Balls and Cooper’
But none of them have ever been in opposition.
Ed Miliband and Balls have only been MPs for 3 years!
@234:
You’re demanding that Clegg should apologise *for being honest*?
GE DATE BETFAIR
H1 2009 4.7
H2 2009 5.6
2010 1.56
A lot of people said 2009 on Mon/Tues this week - market has moved against them
2010 is good odds above 1.4 IMHO. Go long or be wrong..
238 They’re in for a nasty shock if they make it into Opposition! How will they cope without the trappings of power?
228 - I think that LD party motions are backed by the vast majority of those present. In that respect not a two-party coalition.
In terms of the voting public, a mish-mash of all sorts.
It’s puts it into perspective when you heard Harriet Harman saying “i have been an MP for 25 years!”
She doesn’t look bad for it, though, it has to be said! Straw, Darling and Harman’s experience should be an asset to the Labour Party. Too often it seems to have been ignored.
On the Politics Show Willy Hague was completely anodyne in his answers to the great question of the day, i.e., Damien Green.
I really think that Hagues great days - as a politician - are behind him, and that he should return to the Lecture circuit, and continue to write his good books.
What the Torys need is front bench spokesman with fire in his/her veins.
I fear the Sage of Hersham has had an early nip of the cooking sherry …. off the top, other PC’s include :
Nick Raynsford, Archie Kirkwood, Ann Clwyd, Edward Du Cann, Frank Field, Denzil Davies, David Curry, Francis Maude. Not sure about Theresa May.
On a previous thread (28/11/2008, ICM Tories 15%, no. 306):
Are you are categorically certain that there is no possibility whatsoever that the information (paper and/or electronic records) taken by the Police from Damien Green’s homes and Parliamentary office could in any way compromise National Security.
David Cameron (News of the World): on Damien Green:
“who has apparently done nothing to breach our national security”.
Just covering himself perhaps?
It seems that the opposition and so-called luminaries on TV sofas are trying to pre-judge the outcome of this investigation. Perhaps they are really worried about something?
But notice how NOW David Cameron is choosing his words very carefully.
245 - Most of those have been in Govt though. Which is what the query was about.
“‘Milibands, and Alexander, and maybe even Balls and Cooper’
But none of them have ever been in opposition.
by EdP November 30th, 2008 at 12:12 pm”
But that’s irrelevant to my point. What I’m saying is that the younger, smarter, more ambitious ministers - i.e. those named above - must surely realise how damaging Greengate could be to the Labour brand, and to anyone closely associated with the mess.
They know they are very probably gonna lose the election. There’s a good chance the whole party - as well as the public, will turn on the Brown regime with distaste, because of the economy, Greengate, general loathing and weariness.
A sensible Labour minister with an eye to a longterm career in politics should now be quietly shifting himself away from Gordon, so as not to receive any collateral damage.
David Miliband might be well-positioned, over the long run. I can’t see any Brownite getting the job of Labour leader in Opposition, given the hatred and contempt for this present regime. So maybe Balls is out anyhow. But he’ll still try, natch.
2141 Mr & Mrs Balls take home nearly £215,000 after tax, the drop in salaries will be painful let alone the loss of drivers, office staff and power to do anything. It’s going to be a shock - and with Smith Institute already under the Charity Commissions gaze unlikely there will be alternative sources of income.
BTW did anyone post this from the Times
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article5258251.ece
Oasis mogul turns on Brown - read his comments and wondered if he practicing to be a Guido poster
“I hope Labour get f****** stuffed the way they’ve f***** this country up. They’re a bunch of retards,” McGee, 48, founder of Creation Records, told The Sunday Times.
240. Still against you Ghost!
IMO, if Greengate gets much worse for Labour, especially if Brown himself if implicated, then it might not come down to Brown choosing to cling on until the end.
And if his fellow MP’s see the writing is on the wall and they have a choice of complete obliteration in 2010 or embarrassing, but not career ending defeat in 2009, I think there might well be enough pressure for an election sooner rather than later.
As some are saying, people like Balls and Miliband will be looking to the long term and looking out for themselves.
Certainly if Brown was forced to resign, it is difficult to see how Labout could foist yet another PM upon the country without calling an election.
Clegg on returning the fraudster Brown’s donation was twisting and turning like an earthworm sliced in two….
240. “GE DATE BETFAIR
H1 2009 4.7
H2 2009 5.6
2010 1.56
A lot of people said 2009 on Mon/Tues this week - market has moved against them
2010 is good odds above 1.4 IMHO. Go long or be wrong..”
Flashman - don’t rule out 2011, or 20??.
250. worse for Labour? Just see how Cameron is now slowly distancing himself from Green. (above 246.)
amazing how one word can change the pitch!
248. There are no gut’s in this NuLabour party Sean.
They will follow their Great Leader to destruction like the zombies they are. Perhaps Frank Field and a very few others will escape anhilation.
252, unfortunately elections might mean traitors vote the wrong way. Uncle Gordon might have to suspend them so his benevolence and wisdom can continue to guide us without petty complications.
250. If Brown implodes, who is Labour’s Gerald Ford?
247 alex. Oopppss …. this cooking sherry is quite good !! :blush:
249. That’s brilliant! Indeed, I think McGee’s further remarks deserve quoting in full:
‘”Labour are monumentally useless. Gordon Brown has had a charisma bypass. For all Blair’s faults, Blair had charisma. He was a leader, a winner. Gordon Brown is none of these things. He’s a f****** diabolical prime minister and the country is in a mess.”‘
McGee accused Brown of being partly responsible for the economic crisis by failing to tighten the regulation of Britain’s financial services while he was chancellor.
“Governments are good for 10 years, then you’ve got to change. At the last general election I voted Liberal Democrat. This time I don’t think I’ll even vote.”
Downing Street declined to comment.’
The Major is at it again! Another gabble Bot in disguise.
Is it just me? every time i try and log onto benedict brogans blog, my pc goes into a loop and sends an error report to Microsoft..
http://broganblog.dailymail.co.uk/
253 Go back to bed, Major. At least there you can still dream that Labour has some remaining credibility.
Did Jackie Spliff bother to answer Marr’s question about the police searches in the H of P? I can’t recall her response. Even the likes of the Major ought to wonder why the polis haven’t been able to publically search MP’s offices before. Perhaps the FCO has had some interesting exchanges with concerned dipliomatic staff about pots and kettles. The whole episode does little to maintain British democratic credentials in the eyes of outsiders. First we have a porous postal voting system, then we have large numbers of disqualified votes in Scotland, and now we have polis raids on an MP’s office in the Houses of Parliament. As for Brown where is he this weekend, will he be bothered to take any questions about resposnsibility and courage? After all the buck stops with him.
255. That’d be Jackboots Straw, wouldn’t it?
What would be the implications for the Tories if Green is guilty?
263, Straw or Harman.
264, guilty of what?
Given that the Lib Dems, Labour backbenchers and civil liberties persons are united in condemnation of this you can’t paint it as Tory Vs Labour so much as Labour Leadership Vs Everybody Else.
John O’Connor, former heady of the “Sweeney-tod” is laying-in on SkyNews.
Gabble, where are you…?
Re: 242 - The Lib Dems are a coalition as all parties with more than two members are. Like all parties, the “coalition” works well when the party is doing well, there are more strains when it isn’t.
Nick will have to make his peace with the Parliamentary Party of course and as I have to remind Martin C. once again, Charles Kennedy had the great good fortune of leading the party during a time when the Conservatives were weak, divided and useless. The election of Cameron changed that dynamic and Kennedy couldn’t respond (and arguably his successors are still struggling).
Re: 251 - Let’s be honest - I doubt the party could return the money from Brown if it had to in one go. Staged repayments over a number of years might be an option.
263. What would be the implications for the Tories if Green is guilty?
by tim November 30th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Guilty of what Tim. Stealing Jacboot Smiths nickers, perhaps?
263. Depends on how it is reported by the media, I would say. The Press seems to have gone very firmly into attack-dog mode over the past few days as they see the possibility of the sources of a lot of their leak stories drying up.
253. What reeking garbage. Of course Cameron is going to put it qualifiers in his remarks because he is a very clever politician.
There is a chance Damian Green has secretly been conspiring against the Crown with a bunch of Patagonian Nazis working in Macclesfield Job Centre. It’s a small chance, but it’s a chance. Therefore any sensible politician will always add that tiny get-out clause - just in case the utterly unexpected happens.
However we can see where Cameron thinks the real probabilities lie. He has come out on a limb for Green, supported him in a major newspaper, demanded answers from the government, sent the rest of his team to man the Damian Green Defence Bureau, etc etc.
The Tories are confident they are in the right. Meanwhile, what do we see from the government? Pusillanimity, weak little replies, “I knew nothing”, tiny hints and smears that don’t work, and now some major backpedalling from Harriet Harman - “there will be an inquiry”. And from Brown we hear virtually nothing at all, always a sign things are going bad for the government.
It is clear from this that Labour are NOT confident of their position, at all. Indeed, they are in panicky retreat.
268, you haven’t been paying attention. Smith clearly stated on Andrew Marr that the criminality was ThoughtCrime.
Andrew Marr show:
The four leaks in the public domain are not necessarily the only issues.
258. Well weathercock, don’t be so cocky, just answer the question!
See 246. so do you say now?
268. Doesn’t this pose future difficulties for Labour? Assuming, as seems likely they go down to a heavy defeat at the next GE, won’t one of the ramifications of this be that by being so heavy handed over this issue they’ll scare off potential future leakers who’ll have damaging info on the Cameron government? And they’ll have enraged the press who’ll be less inclined to be favourable to them?
How likely do we think this is?
My best guess is that Green is innocent.
But I can also remember the Tory leadership backing Jeffrey Archer for Mayor of London.
267
like this man you mean…
Akira Hino, 51, was arrested in Tokyo in September and charged with stealing a woman’s underpants, using a fishing rod to reach a laundry pole on an apartment balcony. Police found more than 500 women’s undies in his apartment. [Agence France-Presse, 9-30-08]
273. The Watcher. Well, why don’t you just “watch this space”
271 - which means what? If an additional leak isn’t in the public domain then how can it be a leak?
http://www.order-order.com/2008/11/brown-confesses-to-procuring-misconduct.html
274. Don’t need to guess, just wait for the outcome; seems quite reasonable. Presumably, that is why David Cameron’s NoW article was qualified:
“an MP who has apparently done nothing to breach our national security”
So, let’s wait and see.
272. Here is all the answer you need Major.
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2008/11/melissa-kite-i-was-right-to-publish.html
Of course you’ll hate the truth, that this government is a parnoid mess that is ruining Britain and leading us to pertition.
271. No, Jacqui Smith implied it was the “possibility” that leaks other than those we know about “might” have reached the public and these putative leaks “could” have been connected to areas of vital national security. That’s why Green was collared.
Similarly, it is “possible” my hamster Terry “might” be a tiny Iranian jihadist in a small furry jumpsuit and his constant squeaks as he spins his wheel “could” be endangering national security if they are some kind of secret radio transmission to Tehran.
279, hahaha. I wonder how long that video will stay up. I do hope Guido isn’t found in the morning, having brutally stabbed himself in the stomach whilst shaving.
277. don’t be ridiculous.
The information taken, even if not yet “leaked”, if sensitive to National Security, is potentially very serious.
Nicked from Guido, but too funny not to post…
Jaquis day. Chapter 2.
The Package
Delivery man from DHL
“mornin..got a package for you”
Jacksy Smith: “How do you know its for me?”
DHL “its got this address on it, see.”
Jacksy: “That could be any “no 8 Tosspot close” in the world”
DHL”Not really. There’s a postcode and its for the UK”
Jacksy: “It could be anyone of a number of people called Ms Jacksy Smith living or claiming to live at this abode.I’m not signing for it”
DHL “You are Jacksy Smith aren’t you? That Woman off the telly? Yep this is for you”
Jacksy “DHL, you speak as if you know all the facts, yet who I am or am not has yet to be ascertained.I do not even know who you are.”
DHL “here’s my I.D.”
Jacksy “That is not a properly mandated government biometric ID.”
DHL “No, but its got me face on it. Look, see? You can phone the depot if you like”"
Jacksy” That I.D. is no good. I need to swab you,take fingerprints and compare you to the database which may all take 8 or 9 years..Please wait here.”
DHL “I can’t wait . Did you order a package at all?”
Jacksy “That would be a confidential matter between the courier company,the purchaser, Dehlia’s ‘Learn To Boil an egg book’ and Amazon.co.uk”
DHL “So you don’t want it?”
Jacksy “This isn’t about want. Its about allowing internet transactions and postal deliveries to continue unhindered by the protection of parliamentary privilege.If any ordering took place that would be a confidential matter.”
DHL “right i’m off..”
Jacksy “‘ere! Wat about the bleedin’ book!”
DHL “so it is yours then ?”
Jacksy “I did not say that. Frankly this continued line of questioning is undermining the entire Home Shopping network”
DHL “would you like me to just leave it on the step without you signing for it.Then you can say you had no knowledge?”
Jacksy Smith: “Ta very much luv. Tha’ll be great”
278 Nailed!
283 So many ifs. The possibilities are endless.
278. That’s the killer video. Brown confesses, nay, gloats - that he has procured a series of embarrassing leaks from the government.
Perhaps he and Damian Green can share a cell in Scrubs. I can recommend toilet 4, landing B, in the East Wing, for drug deals.
The information taken, even if not yet “leaked”, if sensitive to National Security, is potentially very serious.
by Major William Martin November 30th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Its very interesting that you “know” that further information has been taken. That leaves two possibilities. 1. you are employed by ZL or 2 you are lying that you know that further information has been taken. As has also been pointed out yeah but no but mabye but it might be but, is not a defence
283 - You got that from Jacqui Smith, did you? The woman who is not being given a running commentary on the course of the investigation?
286 re 283 its called spin and is untimately dissembling
283 - How would anyone know this information has been leaked if it hasn’t been made public?
What Jacqui Smith was arguing was effectively that ANY leaks from the Home Office should attract a life sentence, regardless of Security implications, because future leaks could be dangerous.
What she can’t comprehend is that with Security implications the whole thing should not be a criminal matter, only an internal disciplinary matter.
*without Security implications
272 - I wrote about the troll, suddenly reappeared, yesterday.
They are either a tory posting vindictive exaggerations to drive off all labourites, a labourite exaggerating trying to make the rest of them appear sane but, in actuality, shooting them all in the head in aggravating people’s attitude towards them all or another party supporter trying to start a fight between the two main ones to discredit them.
With any of these they should be exposed and ridiculed at every available opportunity. They shame this board by anyone allowing their continued presence. Don’t bother arguing with their politics, just attack their presence.
Maybe their real identity will ask for forgiveness at some time.
157 What’s really disturbing about many of our judges is that they regard freedom of expression as being a good deal less important than ensuring that powerful people aren’t embarassed by (truthful) revelations about them. I thought that almost every criticism that Paul Dacre made of Mr. Justice Eady was well-made, and the actions of Congress demonstrate this.
What bothers me as a lawyer is that almost all eminent members of the legal profession will agree with Mr. Justice Eady (you could read David Pannick’s article in Tuesday’s Times to see that).
The Labour line seems to be that Damian Green, described by Michael White today as “an honest man”, is lying, has procured sensitive information regarding national security (but kept this to himself) and in behaving as Gordon Brown and Churchill (to take just two examples) have done has shown himself a dangerous possibly criminal threat to that national security.
Stop digging, the hole just gets deeper and the questions broader.
190 Mr Galley is thought to have been taken to a secret address by Home Office officials after police raided his £166,000 flat at 5.50am on November 19
Well according to the latest Halifax House Price Index, I calculate his flat as now being worth just £162,529.47.
I look forward to seeing how some of the Tories on here are going to react when the same thing happens to them in five or six years time.
Will the leaking of such documents be deemed to be “in the public interest” when it adversely impacts a Cameron Government or will an incoming Conservative Government seek to further tighten the OSA ?
281. of course, you cannot take risks with the potential for sensitive National Security information being available in the public domain.
I am sure you would agree it is better to be cautious over such matters and leave no stone unturned.
296, based on the government’s response I grow more certain that they knew about this. Why?
If they didn’t, once they’d seen the way the wind was blowing, they would’ve slammed the police to a greater or lesser extent and joined the consensus against this action.
Instead they’ve sought merely to cover themselves, and slyly attack Green.
The get out from the political flak is so obvious, yet they refuse to do it. The Supreme Leader also seems to have rediscovered his cosy bunker.
297. Look backwards. Was Gordon Brown arrested?
263 ‘What would be the implications for the Tories if Green is guilty?’
None since the media are making it quite clear its an 18th century law up there with witchcraft!
And one which would hoist the current Cabinet if it were applied to them.
That’s what the Govt haven’t cottoned on to. Using this law at all is an abuse of democracy and if they had any involvement in it they are in trouble.
There only way out is to plead complete ignorance and drop the police in it.Why not?
Because the police are the ones holding up the thin veil of cover. If Smith/Brown don’t back them up, they could find themselves in even worse trouble.
I can’t see a path out for them without proving Green was selling state secrets to the Russians.
You know what Major, I think even if Damian Green PAID this mole five grand for his information, Damian Green would still be hard to convict in front of a jury.
Because as the Melissa Kite story shows - see link at 280 - the stories that were being leaked were of gross incompetence and dissembling by the government, on the one issue where the public totally loathes and distrusts the government, the issue that makes people angrier about Labour more than any other: immigration.
So I think, if it went to trial - and even if the police had film of Green giving this guy gold ingots in Hyde Park - there’s a good chance a jury would still shrug and say “f*ck it, we don’t care, the government was lying about immigration, we should know this, I’m going to acquit the men who blew the whistle”.
That’s another of your BIG BIG problems. This scandal is all about your lies, evasions and incompetence on immigration, a fact which would be loudly and angrily reported during any “trial”. It would be dismal PR for the government.
You fervently need this issue to go away, WHATEVER. Even if you have evidence against Green, a trial is bad news for Labour. And of course I very much doubt you have serious evidence at all, let alone film of Green handing over dosh behind a bloody tree in Hyde Park.
297
A very good point well made, but its still right to put the boot into this ghastly authoritarian Govt with any means at ones disposal. As to the OSA, I think that very unlikely.
On 2010 election. The best odds are 4/6 with William Hill. This has to be value with these latest polls. I’ve had some.
278. Wonderful when will it be shown on the BBC in front of Jackie smith for her to comment on?
Notice the look of disgust on Hagzilla Smith’s face this morning as Marr talked about the police ‘ransacking’ Green’s house - she was clearly told to expect a far more pro-government line.
297 - Stodge you are mixing up issues.
Every govt has a right to demand that its staff don’t leak. The consequences for those staff will be dismissal at best. If they are leaking (genuine) Official Secrets then they should probably face prosecution, with the chance to produce a defence of “Public interest” in court.
But there have to be extreme circumstances to think that an Opposition MP should be prosecuted for being the recipient of such leaks.
SeanT,
How about £2000 on platform 3 at Victoria station?
302 - I wondered that myself. Payment - and there hasn’t been any evidence at all that any existed - would make Green’s defence a bit weaker, but only on the grounds that payment isn’t the ‘done thing’. There’s no specific rule that paying for this information would be a breech of the law; a jury would have to decide whether, despite payment taking place, public interest was still served.
Anyway, we should stop talking about payment. The police appear to have made it clear that payment is not an issue; and the media have confirmed that in various places. We’re just falling into the Labour troll trap of talking about the non-issue of payment where the real issue is an opposition MP being arrested for making the government look bad.
“It’s a bit expensive to renew your passport these days, what with the Govt hiking the price to pay the start up costs for ID cards.”
It’ll be even more expensive once the cards come in, and you won’t have a choice.
310 - I actually wouldn’t be surprised if they intend to announce a reduction in passport costs post implementation.
286. So why does David Cameron say:
“an MP who has apparently done nothing to breach our national security”. ?
288. none of us knows, which is why we should let the investigation go to completion. And both your assertions are wrong.
289. Just use your “nous”
290, 291.Just wait and see.
302. sounds as if you are getting desperate, seant.
301. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of the government seeking to fabricate evidence against Green to try to make their actions seem credible. The extent of their desperation to hold on to office cannot be understated.
Major, I take it you are a Labour supporter — aren’t you ashamed to use NeoConservative attack tactics against your opponents?
312 - You seem to be implying that you work for the Police…
287 Guido is a national treasure. Albeit one that shouldn’t be shown to your granny.
309. Sure, I’m 99.99% certain Green wouldn’t have paid for this info - by all accounts he didn’t need to.
We know the mole was a Tory (cue outrage from Labourites - how can we allow Conservatives to work in the Civil Service!? Why wasn’t he vetted?); we know he wanted to curry favour from the Tory party, so he presumably thought leaking them info might help.
And of course, as a Tory, the mole was probably very genuinely outraged by the lies and deceit in the Home Office with regards to immigration.
And quite right too.
At some point the mole applied for a position with the party, but was apparently rejected. So the police can’t even show that the guy got some professional reward, let alone financial payment.
The main thrust of the police and government case seems to be, er, there was a series of leaks, it is possible at some point they could have referred to national security issues.. er… that’s it. Lock them all up anyway!
As has been said many times before, but bears repeating, on this basis Gordon Brown would still be doing his bird in HMP Wandsworth.
312 - Remember - Major William Martin was a ‘non-person’ who was carrying false information. To engage in political debate with such a person is to attempt to argue with a lie.
Re: 307 - I’m not for an instant suggesting Green should be prosecuted. What I don’t know is whether an initial enquiry was made at which point Green refused to reveal the source of his information and that refusal has led to the ludicrously heavy-handed over-reaction and the equally ludicrous howls of outrage that have resulted.
As for the civil servant and here I’m in choppy waters on my own knowledge, he has presumably breached the OSA and that would invite prosecution. As you and others have said, we’re then down to the question of “the public interest”.
My previous point was merely that when it is disadvantageous to a Labour Government, Tories are quick to argue that such information is “in the public interest”. Will they be so quick to argue that point if, at some point in the future, information disadvantageous to a Conservative Government is leaked by a civil servant to a Labour or Lib Dem MP and said MP faces the same kind of interrogation that Damian Green has endured ?
My fear is that, once in Government, the Conservatives will be as determined to prevent the dissemination of unfavourable information as Labour is now. This is because while they can sound easygoing and even “liberal” from the safety of opposition, I remain far from convinced that, once in power, the Conservatives will not revert to the kind of authoritarianism they now so roundly and rightly condemn.
“Just wait and see.”
Man, I’m *SO* scared, you pompous fraud!
314, aye. It wouldn’t surprise me at all.
317 - Sean!
“At some point the mole applied for a position with the party, but was apparently rejected. So the police can’t even show that the guy got some professional reward, let alone financial payment.”
Why do you use that word? Why? Why? You think he’s guilty don’t you?
I have made my iews on Clegg clear on the previous thread how ever just to pick on on the excellent oint made up thread.
Webb backed Clegg or the Leadership. it was that endorsment alng perhaps with Simon Hughes that naild any suggestion we’d be subjct to a right wng coup or that he was a Cameron Clone. One of the problems with wining by 511 votes (lower than my old council ward) is that every conter factual necommes credible.
“he wouldn’t have won without steve…” well who can say. As for discusing demoting the guy you beat by 511 votes well.
If you want to know how dmoralising this will be to the party then look at the pravda like silence over on Lib Voice.
Fortunately the Police are completely out of control and perhaps parliament is being bugged by the excutive so no one will notice.
319 Was that this man leaked official secrets. If not any OSA prosecution would surely fail. What is deemed to be an official secret?
314 - Banned Horse, they are a supporter of nothing except their own ego, see above. They defend their own identity with the intensity of a damp cloth, that’s because it is a mirage, a construct, only designed as a vessel for empty thoughts and meaningless words.
319 - Stodge, he has not by press accounts been arrested under the OSA. He has been arrested under the same charges as Green (just “misconduct”, not “aiding and abetting…”). Not every Govt document is an Official Secret.
312. Please please please please please let this investigation “go to completion”. Please let it dominate the front pages for six months. Please let every newspaper investigate every tiny intricacy of which minister knew what about who was possibly bugged.
Please do that. Please. Puh-LEASE.
Don’t you understand, you puerile buffoon? That’s what we rightwingers want. We want this to drag on and on and ON.
lol.
Now I must go and do some thriller-writing. I’ve built up a head of steam. Ciaociao.
324 was that which…
297.
Did anything happen to Gordon Brown when in Opposition he was publishing leaked information?
Anyone remember this quote from Tony Blair during a anti-terror debate ‘When the police ask for more powers, my inclination is to give it to them.’
I think this is incredibly naive, the police need to be kept in check as any other powerful organisation does. Since 9/11 we’ve had an increasingly authoritarian government and a main opposition party who for some bizarre reason have always been very reluctant to criticise the police. Given all this it really wouldn’t be that surprising if the Met were now out of control. Portillo was right, the police seem to have a death wish.
313. Runnymede: what nonsense. Again becoming desperate. This is a matter for the Police, have you forgotten. Which is why Cameron qualified his NoW article with the word “apparently”.
315. No, I don’t imply that, though you seem to infer it. I can’t see how you work that one out.
“Ciaociao”
Close, seanT.
The acceptable term for saying goodbye to the ‘Major’ — another “soldier of truth” like Gabble, eh? — is “cloaca”.
330 - “Apparently” you are grasping at straws.
“I can’t see how you work that one out.”
Because you’re pompous, full of yourself and vaguely threatening?
331 - They will be ‘dead’ soon, to be replaced by another empty shell of an identity.
314 As already pointed out by astutely above it’s hard to know if he is real or a right winger trying to make the situation for Labour worse.
Since there is really no need for an anti Govt poster to use these tactics and he appears when right wingers have most ammunition, I suppose he has to be a real poster with no concept of the extra damage he does.
330
Is a total muppet.
Any evidence agthered is likely to be so compromised as to be usnusable and I suspect teh police officer who authorised:
either illegal bugging (none authorised by J SMith she says)
or a search without a warrant
is likely to find themself in a investigation into missue of powers..
The police for one are going to lose out big style with several careers cut short.
And that is before any change of Government.
And if the Major had anything but sh1t for brains… but he’s a troll so he is full of it.
176. Considering they both got caught in the sh*t………
319 Case law in both OSA and now in this common law offence points very strongly to no decision to prosecute unless there are very serious breaches of national security, or evidence that an official like a police officer has misused his powers. That’s why most cases are dealt with by internal disciplinary procedures.
As for when Conservatives get back in power - yes the game of cat and mouse will continue, Civil Service will do internal enquiries, serious breaches in national security (as for example in the Tinsdall case) will probably involve the police. Surveillance of MPs? arrest of opposition spokesman? doubt that.
Imagine that Sir George Young and other members of the Committee on Standards and Privileges have already been in discussion of sorts, possibly with Mr Speaker Martin and we will get firm guidance on Parliamentary Privilege very soon after Parliament assembles - the sessional orders may indeed require that police return all the papers, PCs, blackberry etc to Mr Green at the point they are passed, so the police will be working hard to get what they need by Wednesday.
299 Exactly. They knew. That’s why they can’t drop the police or the civil service in it. The elaborate web would tear apart if they pulled at the threads.
335. As a Tory, I think we need a much better quality of astro turfer here. The current lot seem to be poorer quality than the early attempts on Guido.
The level of anger over this is going to overwhelm Labour.
Right now the mindset is
Fury over the limp PBR
Disgust over the constant job losses
Fear for the future
Rage over the authoritarian tendencies of the Labour regime and police
More disgust at Brown and Smith and their stupid, ugly, blatant lying
Labour are going to be destroyed, very soon.
“Since there is really no need for an anti Govt poster to use these tactics and he appears when right wingers have most ammunition, I suppose he has to be a real poster with no concept of the extra damage he does.”
Nobody is that stupid, they’d have to have the emotional intelligence of an amoeba to not realise how much they are aggravating attitudes to the government.
Whatever, the joke is on them.
326 You really don’t get it, do you.
This is a Polic matter with potential National Security issues.
You mention the “left-right” political dimension, which shows you see this as a political matter, when in fact it may impinge on National Security.
The UK has to be resolute on these matters, especially in the current international environment.
Re. Ipsos-Mori poll. Labour MPs who would lose their seats on this poll. (With notables in bold)
Alan Campbell - Tynemouth
Albert Owen - Ynys Mon
Andrew Dismore - Hendon
Andrew Slaughter - Ealing Central and Acton
Andy Reed - Loughborough
Angela Smith - Basildon South and East Thurrock
Ann Cryer - Keighley
Ann Keen - Brentford and Isleworth
Anna Snelgrove - Swindon South
Anne McGuire - Stirling
Barbara Follett - Stevenage
Ben Chapman - Wirral South
Betty Williams - Aberconwy
Bill Olner - Nuneaton
Bill Rammell - Harlow
Bob Blizzard - Waveney
Brian Jenkins - Tamworth
Celia Barlow - Hove
Chris Mole - Ipswich
Christine McCafferty - Calder Valley
Christine Russell - Chester, City of
Claire Curtis-Thomas - Sefton Central
Claire Ward - Watford
Clive Efford - Eltham
Colin Burgon - Elmet and Rothwell
Dan Norris - Somerset North East
Dari Taylor - Stockton South
David Borrow - Ribble South
David Chaytor - Bury North
David Crausby - Bolton North East
David Drew - Stroud
David Kidney - Stafford
David Lepper - Brighton Pavilion
David Taylor - Leicestershire North West
Desmond Turner - Brighton Kemptown
Doug Naysmith - Bristol North West
Eric Martlew - Carlisle
Fabian Hamilton - Leeds North East
Geraldine Smith - Morecambe and Lunesdale
Gillian Merron - Lincoln
Gisela Stuart - Birmingham Edgbaston
Gordon Banks - Ochil and South Perthshire
Gordon Prentice - Pendle
Gwyn Prosser - Dover
Helen Southworth - Warrington South
Howard Stoate - Dartford
Ian Austin - Dudley North
Ian Cawsey - Brigg and Goole
Ian Pearson - Dudley South
Jacqui Smith - Redditch
James Plaskitt - Warwick and Leamington
Jamie Reed - Copeland
Janet Anderson - Rossendale and Darwen
Janet Dean - Burton
Jim Fitzpatrick - Poplar and Limehouse
Jim Knight - Dorset South
Jim Murphy - Renfrewshire East
Joan Humble - Blackpool North and Cleveleys
John Hutton - Barrow and Furness
John Smith - Vale of Glamorgan
Jonathan Shaw - Chatham and Aylesford
Julie Morgan - Cardiff North
Kali Mountford - Colne Valley
Karen Buck - Westminster North
Laura Moffatt - Crawley
Linda Gilroy - Plymouth Sutton and Devonport
Linda Riordan - Halifax
Lynda Waltho - Stourbridge
Margaret Moran - Luton South
Mark Todd - Derbyshire South
Marsha Singh - Bradford West
Martin Linton - Battersea
Martin Salter - Reading West
Mary Creagh - Wakefield
Michael Foster - Worcester
Michael Foster - Hastings and Rye
Michael Wills - Swindon North
Mike Hall - Weaver Vale
Nick Ainger - Carmarthen West and Pembrokeshire South
Nick Palmer - Broxtowe
Nigel Griffiths - Edinburgh South
Parmjit Dhanda - Gloucester
Patrick Hall - Bedford
Paul Truswell - Pudsey
Phil Hope - Corby
Phyllis Starkey - Milton Keynes South
Robert Marris - Wolverhampton South West
Roger Berry - Kingswood
Russell Brown - Dumfries and Galloway
Ruth Kelly - Bolton West
Sadiq Khan - Tooting
Sally Keeble - Northampton North
Sarah McCarthy-Fry - Portsmouth North
Shahid Malik - Dewsbury
Shona McIsaac - Cleethorpes
Sylvia Heal - Halesowen and Rowley Regis
Tom Levitt - High Peak
Tony McNulty - Harrow East
Tony Wright - Great Yarmouth
Vernon Coaker - Gedling
343 me, and I’ll repeat again from yesterday, ou are not buying my liberties for 1p off a pack of polos you cretinous Labour morons.
Major William Martin
If there was a legitimate reason (known to the Government) why Green was arrested then I am confident that HH would not have started back-tracking this morning. If the Government are not aware of any legitimate reason why Green was arrested then it would seem appropriate for them to find through the Law Officers (who should have been approached by the police before Green was arrested) if there is a legitmate reason. If there is not a legitimate reason or the law officers were not approached then it is in Brown’s best political interest to open this up now rather than face bad publicity over a prolonged period. Yes I can see a political case for Labour not killing off the story if Green is likely to be successfully prosecuted but there are very few signs this is the case.
Major William Martin
If there was a legitimate reason (known to the Government) why Green was arrested then I am confident that HH would not have started back-tracking this morning. If the Government are not aware of any legitimate reason why Green was arrested then it would seem appropriate for them to find through the Law Officers (who should have been approached by the police before Green was arrested) if there is a legitmate reason. If there is not a legitimate reason or the law officers were not approached then it is in Brown’s best political interest to open this up now rather than face bad publicity over a prolonged period. Yes I can see a political case for Labour not killing off the story if Green is likely to be successfully prosecuted but there are very few signs this is the case.
347 me again - it gets worse! Polos are food, I don’t even get my penny off! Typical Labour.
Haven’t seen much TV but I would be quite interested to know if the default position adopted immediately in ignorance by media types. Jon Craig et al.['this is really bad for the Tories'] has shifted so far that any of them are actually saying it is really bad for the govt.
Nick Robinson seemed to take the view that he only had to ‘hint’ at the seriousness of it.
345 - I’m sorry i must have missed something. The leaker has been identified. He is not in a position to do any more leaking. Hence any “national security issues” which may have been involved in his actions are now no longer in existence.
I’ll leave aside the fact that you appear to be accusing Damien Green of potential treason (I’m not sure what “national security” you believe he has threatened).
345 - it doesn’t matter how many times you claim there are national security issues involved, that doesn’t actually make it so.
Polos are vatable confectionary
353 - His latest burst of activity is based upon an inference that there are national security issues at stake because David Cameron used the word “apparently“!!!
As seant said, the Tories are happy for this issue to roll on, so be calm and let’s wait and see.
354 they are?! thank the Lord - but still no Labour vote despite the penny bung.
Sorry if someone posted:
“The system overreach must come to an end”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/3052906/the-system-overreach-must-come-to-an-end.thtml
@325:
The OSA covers mainly national security stuff:
Section 1: disclosure of security and intelligence information.
Section 2: disclosure of defence information.
Section 3: disclosure of information concerning international relations.
Section 4: disclosure of law enforcement information which would assist a criminal or the commission of a crime.
Section 6: secret information belonging to foreign governments or international organisations.
“I’ll leave aside the fact that you appear to be accusing Damien Green of potential treason (I’m not sure what “national security” you believe he has threatened).”
Perhaps he views embarassing the government as treason.
328 Davis takes a similar view. He can’t wait for them to take Green to court so he can issue a witness summons for the lot of them.
Rawnsley’s article today is excellent and makes amusing reference to DD.
356 I’ll be calm when I decide to be and when I am content that civil and parliamentary liberties are not under threat, not when you tell me, thanks.
Obviously the national security issues are the leaking of information about the crashed flying saucers stored in secret hangars under the Telecom Tower, and the Major is just the man to deal with them, along with his pal Doctor Who.
Given New Labour is now dead, so its now Labour, which is a socialist party, and Brown and co are a party for the nation, why not National Socialists? Has a certain ring to it and is reflective of many of their policies, attitudes and behaviours
I thought the most telling/worrying part of the Marr/Smith interview was this, actually (Marr let this one go straight over his head, sadly, and failed -deliberately or not- to see what Smith was saying):
Marr: Damien Green clearly believes that he was bugged… that his Blackberry was bugged, his phone was bugged… Now, if that was the case, you would have had to approve that, wouldn’t you?
Smith: Er.. if that were the case, I would have signed a warrant..
Marr: Did you sign any such warrant?
Smith: Andrew, no, Andrew… (blusters)… er.. Andrew (trying to interject).. well, because..
Marr: I’m sorry but these are quite important questions…
Smith: I’m sorry, Andrew, Home Secretaries don’t confirm or deny which warrants they have or have not signed. But frankly, let me be clear about this, we are getting totally into conspiracy theory territory here…
Marr: So you’re saying you didn’t sign such a warrant?… You didn’t sign such a warrant…. umm
(Moves on)
…. Read back that last Smith statement there:
…. Home Secretaries *Don’t Confirm or Deny Which Warrants They Have Or Have Not Signed….*
… She gave herself wiggle room there…
Ben Brogan asks:
Another intriguing issue: did the cops time their visit deliberately to coincide with prorogation, when the sessional orders have expired and Parliament is, as it were, unprotected? Certainly one long-standing MP I spoke to thinks it’s odd.
Fraser Nelson on the Green-gate affair builds on his News of the World article
So it’s no excuse for Brown to say that the system went crazy during Green’s arrest. It should make him wonder what kind of monster has been created. It’s no use for Michael Martin to let it be known he’s hopping mad. He can still act. To signal the seriousness of what happened last week, he can resign – not out of guilt, but out of protest. Green’s arrest is a wake-up call for all of us, but no one more so than politicians. The last ten years have been about giving the system more power and money. It’s gone way, way too far. Now’s the time to fight back.
His last line is perhaps the most interesting as it indicates that it now time for direct action rather than waiting for something like Harriet’s “Inquiry”.
359 and others on the OSA.
The OSA is a ragbag excuse for all sorts of nonsense.
Over 50 years ago when I was employed by the Post Office as temporary Christmas postie (ah, those were the days,before Harold Wilson and his Labour crew started turning everything to ratshit) I was required to sign the Official Secrets Act.
Yeah, even now in telling you this I am breaking the terms of the Act. Surely soon there’ll be nine anti-terror plods at the door ready to whip this computer away and search for other state security threatening info.
The threat of the OSA is used as a very blunt instrument in areas where it can have no possible meaning.
I do wish people would not get excited about the fact they were required to sign the official secrets act. This means nothing other than the fact that the act was explicitly brought to your attention. You are no more subject to it than any other member of the public. All members of the public are constrained by the offical secrets act wether they have signed it or not. The act of signing is purely symbolic.
Major Martin - you seem well informed. Douglas Carswell contacted the Speakers Office to clarify whether Michael Martin sanctioned the raid on Damian Green’s office and was told that “there is a process to be followed that was followed”. Shane Greer - http://www.shanegreer.com/ - can’t get the Speakers Office to clarify which process.
I’m sure you can tell us where we can find the relevant Standing Orders in relation to that process.
Only slightly OT
There have been many comparisons made between the situation here and the situtation in Zimbabwe, and that has drawn much criticism.
Turns out, Zimbabwe agrees
The Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe Commends US and UK Authorities for Following Its Lead
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/11/blog-post.html
359 - A complete catch-all. I had to sign because in the ’sixties i worked for a firm that printed form for Customs and Excise. If they can’t get anyone under the OSA they can’t have a case.
India-Pakistan peace process suspended
Labour creates ‘Soviet’ boroughs:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/3536674/Labour-creates-Soviet-boroughs-where-half-of-residents-work-for-the-state.html
This country is an economic basket case.
361. Smith and Brown might think of themselves as smartarses when they they only put them selves up for soft sofa interviews and a bit of fellatio by Andrew Marr. However a top ranking Barrister (and the conservatives will make sure that Green has the very best) will rip them to shreds under oath. It will make a grilling by Jeremy Paxman look like a warm cocoa interview with David Frost.
209. Rob C, you are dead right.
I know several Lib Dems who backed Clegg partly because of Webb’s endorsement. Huhne’s criticism, remember, was that Clegg was going to take the party into Thatcherite territory, and Webb reassured us that that wouldn’t be the case - because Clegg had told him so.
Webb must be seething today - I know I am. He has spent a decade building up a strong local base in Northavon, has worked hard in every job he’s been given (very successfully at Work and Pensions), and now gets slagged off by a leader who only entered the Commons in 2005. Webb is no beard-and-sandals anorak: remember, he used to work for the IFS. He just stands for a strand of liberalism - social, community-focussed, and God-fearing - that is totally alien to Clegg. Clegg’s comments smack of the sense of entitlement that his critics accuse him of. I fervently hope that some of the party grandees that backed Clegg in the leadership contest - Ashdown and Williams spring to mind - make it clear that such comments aren’t acceptable and that the Liberal Democrats are bigger than any one man.
368 Geoff - I did the Christmas Postie stint too, but was sacked every year half way through my stint when the volume of cards started to subside.
An enduring memory for me, however, were the bacon butties in the sorting office - the best in all the world and at the time virtually free!
365 - I think what that conversation tells you is that she didn’t authorise the direct bugging of Green’s phones, but that she may well have authorised the recording of conversations in which he was involved. (ie. by bugging the leaker’s phone, or allowing phone intercepts).
She started denying it, and then realised that her words might imply that Green wasn’t indirectly bugged either.
368. signing it or not has no purpose, the act covers everyone in the nation anyway. Your signing is only to draw your attention to its existence and how it might have implications for what you are doing.
Remember, a long standing principle under English law exists, that ignorance is no excuse. Thu signing it or not is irrelevant.
369. oops. you said it already
375 That’s the reason Grieve has drafted a list of questions. He is a former barrister and may look/sound weird but he is very forensic.
The Speaker should allow an open examination of all the parties involved. He should demand the presence of the senior civil servants and the police to answer questions and demand the later return any documents seized from Parliament.
379 - In fact i think that making people sign the Official Secrets Act is one giant con trick. It makes you think your job might actually be exciting when invariably it is not.
FA Cup…Leeds…(snigger)
FA Cup 3rd round draw day. Still brings tingles…
382 lol
382 sad but oh so true.
364 - I like the logic, but it falls down in one place. Nazi was short for National Socialist German Worker’s Party.
This shower can’t be called ‘Nazi’s’ as that implies they are ‘workers’. As few have done a days’ work in their life, the Trades’ Descriptions Act might be rbought in to query that moniker!
377
when I was made redundant in 2005 I did 8 weeks at the Roal Mail at a main sorting office and went thro the entire Xmas and new year period.
Of note
My colleagues were fantastic, the management not so.
I would not have eaten in the canteen if my life depended on it.
Never mind the salary, I lost over two stone in 8 weeks and have kerpt nearly all of it off. Grateful to the royal mail for that if nothing else.
Talking to ex colleagues who are still there, I wouldnt go back, period.
379. Has no purpose. Exactly! That was my point. How on earth could it have any purpose to the role of a temporary Christmas postie?
My ‘war story’ of the time is that I had to deliver a registered letter. I got the receipt signed.
But when back at the sorting office I found I’d lost it and was given a rollicking and told to get a replacement signed on the next round. If the recipient wouldn’t sign then I’d be for it.
I arrived at the house trembling that they’d be awkward and claim the letter had not been delivered, wouldn’t sign, demand compensation etc, etc.
As I opened the garden gate, I looked down at the ground and there was the receipt, signed, that I must have dropped the previous day! Phew!
Just saw the Rawnsley reference to David Davies on Dale’s blog.
Surprised David Davis hasn’t already “confessed” that he was running several rings of informants across the Home, Justice and Cabinet Offices until his decision to quit and if the Metroplitan Police want to arrest him for it “Come and get me if you think you are hard enough”…this fits so well with his authoritarian state story he must be longing to be back at the despatch box.
Who would of thought “something’s up in Toryland” would end up with Labour looking defensive, incapable and again with no control of the media narrative?
Quick question: which pollsters have changed their methodology since 2005?
390 Rawnsley’s article is IMHO the best read of the day.
389 Blimey, Geoff - phew indeed, you certainly lead an incredibly exciting life in those days!
After reading much of the comments on here I am much in agreement with all but those few desperate Labour die-hards clinging to rapidly shrivelling straws of hope regarding the outrageous events of recent days.
As a constituent of Damian Green it is of greater significance to me than perhaps to most others on here and given not only parliamentary and democratic considerations but that the police are now denying me effective democratic representation (that I have used in the past) I am furious.
However, that aside I am further disturbed by the sinister revelation that the Home Office, a government body that quite possibly may be guilty of a heinous abuse of power have spirited away one of the key protaganists in this affair. At 26 this young person is hardly able to defend himself against the combined might of the Home Office and the police.
Have the Home Office effectively kidnapped him? Are they denying him independent counsel? Are they offering him inducements to compromise Damian Green (whether there is anything for him to answer or not?). What other action are these sinister grey-suits manipulating behind the scenes.
If Gordon Brown’s intention was to destroy our democracy and the people’s faith in our offices of state he could be doing a better job!
It is time that the festering, maggot ridden corpse of this government was despatched back to the putrid hinterlands where such behaviour eminates and the dark stains they have placed on our free democratic society washed away with the most stringent democratic guarantees provided that such behaviour can never be allowed in a Government or public sector again!
Today’s talk over a split in the Cabinet over the Green issue plus all party concerns suggests that the story has a long way to go.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-fear-security-services-now-have-open-door-to-snoop-1041652.html
A relative of mine used to work in a postal sorting office in a north of england city at christmas times. he said the blatant theiving of money from envelopes, parcels & presents, etc amongst postal staff was of epidemic proportions, and no one ever did anything about it. he was truly shocked. its apparrently common practice in sorting offices. The bosses were on the take, too. There’s a whistleblowing story for you.
394 “It is time that the festering, maggot ridden corpse of this government was despatched back to the putrid hinterlands where such behaviour eminates and the dark stains they have placed on our free democratic society washed away with the most stringent democratic guarantees provided that such behaviour can never be allowed in a Government or public sector again!”
Get off the fence and say what you really mean!!!
Apologies the second to last paragraph should read could not be doing a better job!
397. OK I will next time :0)
#7 - “…Either way today’s papers are grim reading for A Clunking Fist (Anagram of “Fact: Sulking In”.”
There’s another anagram of ‘a clunking fist’, which is perhaps more apposite: It’s two words, and the second one’s ‘Stalin’.
400th?
464(prev) SallyC. My mistake, thanks. Galley must be staying in hiding willingly - is it in both his and the police’s interest that he talks to no-one - lawyer,family, a friendly paper? Heavy pressure, perhaps?
“I’ll leave aside the fact that you appear to be accusing Damien Green of potential treason…”
Labour: “L’Etat est moi.”
394.The treatment of the unfortunate Mr Galley does bear the hallmarks of Big Brother.
The young man was arrested by anti-terror officers in a 5:50am dawn raid and treated to a high security detention normally reserved for terror suspects.
How could he fail to be intimidated?
We all love conspiracy theories, so how about this one?(from a commenter at ConHome)
“
A Trap for Boris?
Could this have been a trap set for Boris?
Hoping to trick him into acting outside of his competence - with headlines prepared ‘Boris Blocks Anti-Terror Officers Search to Protect Tory Frontbencher’ ?
The government were well prepared with their “We don’t interfere with the Police” line… Would have been a good contrast if the tories had messed up their response…
The (rejected) DAF dontation would have sunk the tories if accepted because the circumstantial evidence would have been so strong…
Now this…
Smith may complain that this is in the land of ‘conspiracy theories’ - but just because you are paranoid, it doesn’t mean the aren’t out to get you!
MPs need to recognise the power they have, and properly fufill the responsibilities that entails - parliament is above the law (not MP’s, not parties, not government etc -just parliament), we entrust MPs to handle that responsiblity properly and to fully protect the soverignty that we entrust in them.
Get your fingers our lads (and lasses)!
Posted by: pp | November 30, 2008 at 14:38
“
394. New JSFL with added invective, cleans out those governments, that others can’t
In addition to my previous post at 394. By spiriting away Mr. Galley, the Home Office must be guilty of interfering with the very independence of the investigation that the Home Secretary holds so close to her heart?
Surely. Mr Galley must be taken to court and dealt with as any other suspect would be under common law!
405. In fact Boris’s response when told of the planned arrest was,as reported, exactly as it should have been.
And thus confirmation of his fitness for high office.
405. That was my point yesterday - telling Cameron/Boris but not the government points at a hope that they would try and interfere. Boris played a blinder by telling them that they were bloody fools, but not trying to stop them.
409. Three cheers for Boris the Wise!!
You tories are scary people. We could be returning to some traditional Conservative values:
“You don’t need to question this man, officer, he’s ‘one of us’”
I wonder what Ken’s reaction would have been?
Next thread should be up about 4pm.
Thanks
Double Carpet
405 and 409. Some of our new ‘on message’ posters did immediately jump in and try to accuse Boris of exceeding his authority when he had done nothing of the sort.
407. Habeas corpus is already halfway to the dustbin under this foul government and would be festering under tonnes of landfill if they had their way.
@409:
Boris, presumably, did the one thig they hoped he wouldn’t: offer them wise counsel, but otherwise let them get on with the business of hanging themselves.
414. Good point. That did look like a pre-prepared spin line desperately trying to be fitted to the circumstances.
Michael White. I missed the bit in the Mail. The Govt think there might be up to 6 moles..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2008/nov/30/damian-green-gordon-brown-police
@411:
Gabs, dear. Put the kettle on, would ya luv?
407. Why is Galley being treated like this? It’s as if they think he is a small-time crook and their using him to try and catch the bigger fish. It needs to be re-stated that Damien Green has not leaked anything. He has merely been the recipient of leaks.
I agree with Sally C, Rawnsley’s article is excellent. I also thought Clegg was good in the Telegraph - other mistakes notwithstanding.
Obviously the Mirror journalist who has reported Nick Clegg’s private conversation (with himself?) is a threat to national security and should be forcibly detained in a small room together with several Tory MPs (say the Wintertons and Eric Pickles) for a fortnight. That’ll larn him!
Will Nick Clegg become Tory Home Secretary before David Laws becomes Tory Chancellor? That’s the question they are all asking themselves down in the Byelorussian politburo.
Perhaps it was Rory Bremner on the plane?
On late shift today, gabble? Taken over from the Major, I presume?
411 I think you’ll find we aren’t the ones people [outside the Labour Party] are afraid of this morning.
Andrew Rawnsley [that well known leftie!] wasn’t looking for Tories when he looked out of his window half expecting to find himself in Rangoon this morning.
Anyway, nice to see you back. The standard of Labour cheerleader has been particularly dire today.
412. He would have put on his murderous Che hat on and rounded up some counter revolutionaries (tory councillors) and shot them, in the name of the People.
And wage slave - dead on the dot of 3!
Can someone clarify the legal situation here?
The police have apparently been briefing the newspapers that they already have sufficient evidence to charge Green with an offence. If that is the case is it not encumbent upon them under the law to charge him with that offence immediately?
415. Indeed and those who have read previous posts know my opposition to 42 days and the rest. However, just because its significantly damaged doesn’t mean we should let them destroy it completely without vociferously opposing it.
This affair is revealing outrage after outrage perpetrated by this Government and their minions!
411 No Gabble the really scary people are this government which is now getting beyond parody. It has no respect for our previously hard won freedoms of speech and actions. As David Davis said when he resigned
To those above must now be added the the terrible crimes of “Conspiring to Tell the Truth” and just plain “Doing your Job”.
426. What has the law got to do with it?
411 No Gabble the really scary people are this government which is now getting beyond parody. It has no respect for our previously hard won freedoms of speech and actions. As David Davis said when he resigned:
But in truth perhaps 42 days is the one most salient example of the insidious, surreptitious and relentless erosion of fundamental British freedom.
And we will have shortly the most intrusive identity card system in the world. A CCTV camera for every 14 citizens, a DNA database bigger than any dictatorship has, with thousands of innocent children and millions of innocent citizens on it.
We have witnessed an assault on jury trials, a bolt against bad law and its arbitrary use by the state.
And shortcuts with our justice system, which will make our system neither firm nor fair and a creation of a database state opening up our private lives to the prying eyes of official snoopers and exposing our personal data to careless civil servants and criminal hackers.
The state has security powers to clamp down on peaceful protest and so-called hate laws to stifle legitimate debate, whilst those who incite violence get off scot-free.
This cannot go on, it must be stopped, and for that reason today I feel it is incumbent on me to take a stand.
To those above must now be added the the terrible crimes of “Conspiring to Tell the Truth” and just plain “Doing your Job”.
426 Yes. As soon as you have enough you are supposed to stop any interview and charge.
426 - alex - Which police have been briefing which newspapers? Surely they should all be arrested?
426. As David Davis says if the police do have the evidence then charge Green and we’ll have the whole scuvy crew (Brown, Smith etc.)
up to give evidence.
After that given their zealousness I’m sure we can then expect various Home office officials to be investigated, have their houses ransacked and charged with ‘perverting the course of justice’ and claiming they were only doing their jobs (as if!).
Will:
6 Oct 2007 … Mr Brown, speaking exclusively to the BBC’s Andrew Marr on Saturday in Downing Street, said: “I’ll not be calling an election. …
become:
6 Dec 2008 … Mr Brown, speaking exclusively to the BBC’s Andrew Marr on Saturday in Downing Street, said: “The police will not be prosecuting Damien Green. …
?
426. I think it probably depends what the offence is.
If when they arrived mob-handed at his door and he used abusive language something along the lines of “what the flock do you think you are doing?” then they probably have enough evidence to charge him with some minor offence. Just because they have enough evidence to charge a person with a minor offence, it is not encumbent upon them to do so. They can presumably use their discretion in minor offences and not charge him.
This could all be smoke and mirrors with the police trying to justify their position by inferring that they have enough to charge him with a serious offence whereas the actual offence they have evidence of is relatively minor.
Hagzilla this morning seemed to imply that there were further ‘leaks’ that had not ‘leaked’ - which even Marr found ludicrous. However she was unable to state what was known or held by the police as she does not know any more than anyone else.
Basically, she implied Green was guilty of much more, without evidence or knowledge of the same, pure manure spreading and she should lose her job for that alone.
‘Those are the four we know about, that are in the public domain’ (or words to that effect)
‘So there are others?’
‘I do not know what information the police have’
She is implying he may have involvement in or being investigated for something that has not been alleged, of which no information is available and of which she states she knows nothing. Banana republic stuff, it cannot stand.
Terrible article by White.
Misses all the inconsistencies and holes in Smith’s interview such as the distinction between knowing about the arrest and the investigation and the lines over what she knew about the bugging.
Also completely fails to see the potential failures of management and implausibilty of them not knowing.
Compare and contrast with Rawnsley.
At least he doesn’t try to smear Green. But nor does he condemn Smith attempts to do so.
434. Penny4Them: “If when they arrived mob-handed at his door…”
I don’t know about you but if I was to be detained until the completion of a search on my house, I would prefer 9 officers taking 9 hours rather than 1 officer taking 81 hours.
431 - Here for starters.
“Insiders at the Yard countered that they believe they have enough evidence to charge Green. Senior Metropolitan police sources said detectives had formed the view that Green was actively engaged in what they alleged may have been a political espionage operation targeting the private office of Smith.
Defending the Met from criticism of heavy-handiness during the raids on Green’s home and House of Commons office last week, a senior Met insider said: “This was not done lightly. Green was more than a surprised and grateful recipient of the leaks].
The disclosure raises the prospect of a high-profile Old Bailey trial at which allegations could emerge of political influence on the police. “
Sally C - you were expecting brilliance and accuracy from White?
436. Sally C: “At least he doesn’t try to smear Green. But nor does he condemn Smith attempts to do so.”
I watched the Marr interview and I didn’t see any attempts by Smith to smear Green. When did this happen?
434 - the relevant offence is the one for which he has been arrested. ie. if they arrested him for the minor offence mentioned then they would have to prosecute.
They can’t arrest someone for a minor offence, and then use the time granted to them to investigate all his belongings and computers etc for a bigger one.
418 - Interesting that the definite Labour spin is now blame the police. White goes for it, the Mirror have the story about heavy handed thugs, sorry I mean police.
His claim that it is all the police, and then suggests that all the other papers are reporting it as so. This is completely false. I don’t think the Indy or Mail story go for that line at all, their take and many other newspaper columns are still very concerned with what the government / senior civil servants knew and if they didn’t know, why not.
Also I would immediately ask the following question to this claim.
Consider the the loss of the data disks. In that case, a minister didn’t make the blunder, however ministers run the departments and they instruct the civil servants how they want things to be done. They hire and fire the “managers” to implement their wishes. This is very much in the same way a CEO of a big company.
Let take an example, say Nike and child labour.
Is the CEO forcing children in the third world to work for nothing? No.
Is he employing people to strike deals with third world sweat shops to make the goods? Yes.
Is turning a blind eye to the fact that the people with those contracts might be employing children in terrible conditions acceptable? Absolutely Not.
It is an excuse to say he is a CEO and so has been kept in the dark? Only if he can prove it and is serious that “whatever it takes” is done to rectify this.
It is the same in the data disk case and here. At the end of the day a minister is the equivalent of the CEO. What goes on beneath them occurs due to their orders, and things which occur that shouldn’t are in part due to lack of oversight.
So in the data disk case, we have civil servants allowing junior employees to have access to the whole database. Those junior employees seem to think it is ok to shove 25 million records on a disk and stick it in the post, with no regard for data protection. This failing on numerous levels. A failing of employing decent staff, failing of good training and oversight, and failing to set the right ethos for those working in such a sensitive department.
So we have police thinking it is ok to arrest an MP, raid parliament, and not be able to charge him with anything.
Who instills this kind of thinking into the service? Who hires those people?
Who is responsible for the laws which allow the police to act in such a way?
Who is setting the ethos of the police and civil servants?
Who appears to be completely in the dark about a police operation with major consequences?
Who appears doesn’t want to apologise or look into rectifying this?
437 - you set yourself very low standards, which you consistently fail to maintain. That’s just crass.
As this business now seems to have been confirmed as ‘Greengate’, sould we have some sort of acknowledgement to R. C. Sherriff who came up with the title first?
441. Thanks for clarifying. The reason I questioned it was because the newspapers had been told that the police had enough evidence to charge for AN offence. I didn’t know whether this was perhaps an attempt to justify their posiion, even though they did not have enough evidence to charge him for THE offence for which he was arrested.
(245 - Jackie-White-Feather, Actually so far from the truth as I’ve been cheesing and w(h)ining with Hersham’s finest these last few hours. Dear loveable old coote…what I was arguing is that very few opposition spokesmen become PCs….and your list proves my point (apart from Archie Kirkwood).
As you well know, PCs are quite often given to Ministers of State as a kind of consolation prize ‘cos they will never actually get their paws under the Big Cabinet table.
Anyway, that’s quite enough being PC about PCs tapped on a PC)
#440:
JACQUI SMITH: Wait a minute, Andrew. There are four leaks that are in the public arena. The point is that this started as an investigation into a systematic series of leaks about which of course it wasn’t clear what had been leaked and what may not have been leaked. So the fact that something is in the public domain doesn’t mean that those are the only leaks that have gone on.
ANDREW MARR: Well a leak tends to be… That’s the definition of a leak, I would have thought, that it’s in the public domain.
JACQUI SMITH: Well actually…
FPT
From today’s Observer:
‘I haven’t done enough yet to save economy’
Alistair Darling has admitted that he will ‘almost certainly’ have to deliver a second dose of financial life-support to Britain’s ailing economy as soon as next spring if his unprecedented £20bn tax-and-spending package fails to contain the recession.
Eh??? I thought he told us just six days ago that the recesion would be over by Q3 2009. So what’s all this about?
Darling must be eternally grateful that the Damian Green story is continuing to grab the headlines since his admission is of truly jaw-dropping proportions.
For God’s sake man, if you’re not up to the job, just go.
(
Should have read Alex @247b and ye olde lagge himself @257 before posting)
I think this bit is worth reposting:
“Insiders at the Yard countered that they believe they have enough evidence to charge Green. Senior Metropolitan police sources said detectives had formed the view that Green was actively engaged in what they alleged may have been a political espionage operation targeting the private office of Smith.”
The police officers have gone off on a theory and have completely lost sight of the issues involved. And i think it is only now that the consequences of their actions are dawning on them.
And the reason it came to this? Because all throughout their investigation they have had nobody offering political guidance on the implications of their actions.
448. Are we likely to see a currency movement tomorrow following Darlings revelations??
BBC New (15.29) read out an e-mail to Grieve as an example of what real people ‘outside the Westminster village’ are thinking - “does David Cameron think MPs are above the law, they should have reported the mole, not a whistleblower, to the police”. Amazing.
452 - From a Mr A Campbell of London
450. But surely in the chain of command we would have had some ACPO members. ACPO is a top to bottom, left to right inside and outside 100% political organisation, members of such an organisation normally know very well how to follow political orders, and when pass political matters up the ladder.
Have the police also stopped to consider the implications of what they are saying about a “political espionage operation”? If this was the reality then it is inconceivable that Green would have been going solo on this. The rest of the Tory High Command would have been in on it.
Are we going to see the entire Tory front bench arrested in the coming weeks?
454 - We have a government who have lost the will (indeed they seem to have done so as a matter of principle) to question the “experts” in their actions.
They refused to properly question the intelligence over Iraq, they routinely accept what the police tell them (in fact use it as an argument for not having to defend their positions in parliament).
455. Perhaps they need to be shown Guido’s video of Gordon’s “I was a spy”
Last night I read a story at the Mail about the copper who ordered this being the same one who wrote a helpful letter to Jacquiboot Smith pleading for 42 days. I can’t find it now; has it vanished, or has the link/title changed?
Quite simply, there may be areas of public life where the government do not have the right to “operationally interfere”. This NEVER removes the right of them to ask questions and require those in charge to justify their actions.
456. Indeed I vote in general elections to elect representatives to wield power as my government and make decisions. Them not some unelected numpty. If that Government admits that it is powerless as this government has repeatedly over the credit crunch (it’s all the USA’s fault and those stupid bankers) and over Greengate (it’s all down to the Police) then they have no use at all (and thats being polite about it!)
447. join to choose
Is that post supposed to be an example of Smith smearing Green? Of course, it is nothing of the sort.
What she is saying, correctly, is that the source of the alleged leaks to Green may also have had access to other sensitive information. She is not suggesting that this was leaked to Green because she doesn’t know. In fact, she is not saying that it has been leaked at all. She is saying that it is a matter for legitimate investigation.
Also, a leak does not have to be widely known to the public. A leak to a terrorist organisation, for instance, would probably be kept secret by the leaker and the receiver. I don’t believe this is applicable in this case but it would be foolhardy for the executive to ignore the possibility.
Jacqui Smith claiming to have had no detailed knowledge of the progress of the police investigation (and specifically to not have queried it at any time) is quite simply an abrogation of her responsibility as the individual ultimately accountable for Police behaviour. Asking questions is not Interference.
She should resign.
Great line from the Beeb website
Ms Harman, who said she had never received a leaked document in her years as an MP
If I was her I would be asking, why not me? Do they think that nobody will listen to me? Does nobody take me seriously?
Re 460: At best Smith is guilty of of a dereliction of her democratic duty. Shame is there is no constitution to say that - it’s about time there was!
The Michael White article in the Guardian does seem to be a flyer for the new line of spin for Gordon; “Yes, I too am shocked that the police exceeded their brief, not my fault at all of course”
458 David - is this the piece you were referring to:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1090566/Jacqui-Smiths-favourite-copper-ordered-raid-Tory-MPs-home.html
400 Brilliant!
By the way, the article by Cameron in the NoW confirms that he was forewarned by the police of the arrest, not by Boris, as some speculated earlier. Apologies if this already pointed out.
459 it’s here in the Daily Mail titled “Jacqui Smith’s favourite copper ordered raid on Tory MP’s home”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1090566/Jacqui-Smiths-favourite-copper-ordered-raid-Tory-MPs-home.html
461 - Gabble
“What she is saying, correctly, is that the source of the alleged leaks to Green may also have had access to other sensitive information. She is not suggesting that this was leaked to Green because she doesn’t know. In fact, she is not saying that it has been leaked at all. She is saying that it is a matter for legitimate investigation.
Also, a leak does not have to be widely known to the public. A leak to a terrorist organisation, for instance, would probably be kept secret by the leaker and the receiver. I don’t believe this is applicable in this case but it would be foolhardy for the executive to ignore the possibility.”
What has any of this got to do with the arrest of Damian Green please? Are you saying he is a terrorist?
467. must google quicker
400 - Lol.
Fecking Stalin.
“Insiders at the Yard countered that they believe they have enough evidence to charge Green. Senior Metropolitan police sources said detectives had formed the view that Green was actively engaged in what they alleged may have been a political espionage operation targeting the private office of Smith.”
This is such a bizarre, convoluted, and preposterously qualified statement it is virtually meaningless.
Detectives had “formed the view” (i.e. had jumped to a conclusion) that Green was “actively engaged” - what does that mean? did he use the phone? - “in what they alleged may” (”alleged may” - could you get any weaker?), “in what they alleged may have been a political espionage operation”….
Political espionage what?? Political espionage operation??
Yeah, that Damian Green, he just reeks of “political espionage”. One look at him and you think: 007. Licensed to embarrass. Probably good with a Walther PPK.
It’s a joke.
What the statement means is this: “we, the police, now realise we have disastrously over-reacted to intense government pressure to stop these leaks, so we have come up with this desperate hint: that Damian Green might have asked the mole to continue providing him with information, which of course is totally legal and time-honoured but er who cares right now we’ll say anything.”
“Indeed if we really really twist it we can make it sound like Green was “procuring and abettting and generally doing something likely to lead to public misconduct” which is arguably illegal under an obscure law we found 3 minutes before the arrest.”
Take this to trial, Labour. DO IT. Take it to the Old Bailey. Where all your fetid little lies about immigration will be raked over and over, amidst an atmosphere of poisonous government paranoia and insane executive bullying. Where all of Green’s actions will be compared to the entirely identical actions of one James Gordon Brown.
TAKE IT TO TRIAL.
Its amazing how Brown has gone to ground again. I have only seen him respond once on camera to the Green matter, and it was only a few seconds long in which is said nothing of any worth.
473′Intense government pressure’
I simply don’t believe the government could put that kind of pressure on the police. Still, we will see.
471 You’re googling speed is OK, just try writing shorter intros!
Peter and Fitaloon - many thanks.
461/470 (con):
Damian Green could have been a terrorist, or working for a terrorist organisation (the Tory Party), and the Police should not disregard this possibility…
I DOUBLE DARE Jackboot Jacqui to let this one go to trial.
It will be *ace*.
474. He’s getting on with the job of course, silly. Those X Factor letters don’t write themselves….
474. If the government want to take the line of ‘we don’t comment on on-going operations’ okay. But they should at least be qualifying this by saying that of course there will be reviews/inquiries at the right time.
Do they really think this will all blow away? That’s generally Brown’s startegy for anything controversial. Say nothing for fear of exascerbating the issue and cross your fingers that people let it go. The telegraph referred to green as the Andrew Sachs of politics. If there’s one thing the government could learn fromthat bbc mess, it’s that you need to deal with these things quickly.
461 Gabble trying to muddy the waters I see. The facts of this are simple Smith and Brown got their friends in the police to put the frighteners on some poor mole (who is apparently in a safe house “for his own protection”) they then tried to entrap Green and finally sent 9 anti terror officers off to raid his house and with Martin’s agreement the house of commons.
A simple everyday story of the most authoritarian government in living memory that is sleep walking us into a police state.
479. Won’t happen. They’ll kill it because they know it will embarrass them. We’ll see how ‘operationally independent’ the police and prosecuting services are soon….
@482:
He’s not so much muddying the waters, as smearing himself in his own shite. Like a sexually frustrated bonobo in a Eastern European zoo.
478. alex
I didn’t say that.
You’re just another drivelling goon that deliberately mis-represents other people’s opinions.
It’s pointless arguing with you.
478 Gordon Brown (who as we know was in receipt of several leaks) might be a terrorist. The police should not discount that possibility…
Has Campbell and Mandelson gone on holiday since Thursday? Or have they absolutely given up now? Cos the government handling of this whole incident couldn’t have been much worse. The press pack (excluding Sir White of Labourite) seem to be going as hard with this and no signs of it stopping any time soon, and whoever briefed Smith for this morning gave her nothing to say to calm it down. If anything she made it worse by hinting that Green was guilty of something serious and that the police were right to conduct the raid.
447.
“ANDREW MARR: Well a leak tends to be… That’s the definition of a leak, I would have thought, that it’s in the public domain. ”
Pillock. Quite a lot of leaks are held on to by those who are told them until the time when they can do most damage. Hence NOT at all in public domain.
I like the Met Police logic:
The known leaks are from the Home Office.
The Home Office sometimes deals with really dangerous security stuff.
We don’t know what else the leaker might have leaked or might be prepared to leak, or to whom.
So he might well be a threat to national security.
So we can use anti-terrorist measures on him.
And we don’t know what else he’s passed on.
So we’ll use anti-terrorist measures against those who we know he’s passed stuff on to, to see what else they’ve got from him (or anyone else while we’re looking).
He’s passed on stuff to journalists and to a shadow minister.
Let’s leave the journalists alone, they’d only get cross and uppity. Politicians are fair game. Nobody really likes them. They’re forever stuffing their pockets with public money they’re not entitled to.
So we’ll lock up this Green bloke then, nobody’s ever heard of him.
And he’s said nothing useful about police pay, has he?
Don’t know, never heard of him.
Why is everyone upset? What did we do? It’s not like we shot an innocent man on the Underground or let Tony Blair off the hook.
475. Are you f*cking joking? How do you think the police operate?? At the top it is all politics.
Boris Johnson could exert enough pressure to eject the most important policeman in the UK, and BoJo is just mayor of London. A PM or a Home Secretary has the future of the entire police force at his or her disposal: the pressure they could impose, if they wanted, would be irresistible.
Imagine a simple call, made a couple of weeks ago, to the head of the Met from the head of the Cabinet Office.
“Hi, it’s the head of the Cabinet Office here. Just want you to know, the prime minister is very keen to see these moles rooted out and arrested if possible, as they are seen as damaging the government. I repeat, this is seen as a matter of the utmost importance by the prime minister himself.”
The prime minister ain’t ordering anyone to do anything, but you can be damn sure the cops would leap smartly to attention, if they got that call. To think otherwise is pathetically ingenuous
485 Now that you have lost the argument is it time to get on the blower to the anti terror police, Gabble.
485 - No you didn’t, Gabble. My interpretation was how you could turn it into a reason to investigate Green.
You suggested that Green was (for what reason i know not what)having documents passed to him (presumably ones which had national security implications) which he then didn’t release. And we should not discount that possibility.
I’m wondering if the Tories are likely to have kept election strategy / policy (if they have formed any yet) on computers such as the ones removed from Green’s office. If so, I wonder if their contents might end up as a leak? Or somehow getting into the hands of opposition MP’s? Just a thought
Why does Ms Smith proclaim police independence so strongly when she prevented the BAE corrpution enquiry by the SFO?
http://cassiuswrites.blogspot.com/2008/11/jacqui-smith-police-independence-is.html
488 - Nice one wage slave
You’re a good’un really.
Dave must demand to be told just how much longer Mr Galley will need to remain in a “safe house for his own protection” and from whom any threat to him is perceived to come.
He should also ask for confirmation that Mr Galley is being legally represented and if so by whom and whether such representative can confirm, in view of the level of public concern, that it is entirely Mr Galley’s wish to remain at the “safe house” provided for him and that he is free to leave there at any time.
Breaking news of further arrests.Police have today rounded up:
Damien Green
Gordon Brown
Graham Pink
Rabbi Lionel Blue
Jason Orange
Michael White
Cilla Black
Simply Red
All discovered to be ’sleeper’ members of Bill Boakes’ Air Road Public Safety White Resident Rainbow Alliance, which, according to intelligence from the Faroe Islands, is the new global threat.
“If we’re successful in making our case, it could have major ramifications: ”
Quite right to consider them. Wen you are in Opposition Special Banch/Anti TrrorismSquad will have to buy Macs so they can properly copy your hard disk byte by byte..
No smileys : I am serious.
450. I’m intrigued by this new offence of ‘political espionage’. Is it common law or statutory?
197
Sorry wrong blog…
498 - I did wonder runnymede, but i wasn’t sure so didn’t want to go out on a limb on that one!
The reason given for Galley being nurse-maided in a safe house is to protect him from the press. Now if that had been a Max Clifford statement it might be understandable… but the Home Office?
In fact, there’re no doubt news rags who’d love to pay him lots of loot for his story. He should chat to his brief… maybe hit the Home Office with a writ for ‘Restraint of Trade’.
499 - Nobody would have noticed!
500. Was it perhaps part of a package that also included ‘demeaning the name of the Dear Leader’ and ‘being a member of an organisation other than the ruling party’ that was passed while I slept, rip-wan-winkle like, these past forty years?
Brilliant comment fom Michael White’s blog
The home secretary, Jacqui Smith, repeated the denial on TV this morning, though I missed it.
I’d watch the tape if I was you, because she did not deny that she knew what police were doing. She said she didn’t know about the arrest. Things that she has not denied she knew about: the investigation, the planned searches, the likelihood of arrests. Other things she has not denied: talking to the police about the case, talking to them about her position, talkign to them about what info should and shouldn’t be pased to her.
Let’s get some firm and detailed denials before we start moving the crowds on, please Michael?
Noticed in Mchael White’s piece that Mr White has been made aware that Mr Speaker Martin was not aware of the arrest.
Eminient journalists, Morus among them, have called the Speakers Office and asked for confirmation about the Speaker’s knowledge or lack of and received nothing more than “processes were followed” - Mr White however “has learned”.
Mr White is perhaps as I think Andrew Rawnsley says a little forgiving of Labour’s errors, maybe the Speaker has chosen such a friendly voice to get his story out before he faces the anger of MPs - “wasn’t me Guv, I was paying the Taxi and carrying in all the shipping Mrs Speaker had done at Harrods Food Hall, then putting it away in the pantry (takes ages to hang 5 brace of pheasants, ensure the Pate de Fois Gras is from Goose Friendly farms only, and get the the vodka and cavair chilled just right) and I missed all the messages on 1571″.
@505:
Michael White probably still reckons he’s in for a ‘P or K’, hence his equivocation.
re 391. Ipsos-MORI & ComRes have undergone major changes.
Populus has made minor changes and who knows what YouGov have done.
Pro-Labour blog looks analyses bankruptcy for Britain.
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/45968,opinion,bankruptcy-beckons-for-not-so-great-britain