Continuation thread
June 19th, 2008
Please continue the thread here
It has been party night for PBers in London and many are now on their way home.
Our venue was the terrace of the National Liberal Club overlooking the Thames and just a block away from Big Ben.
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Patrick Hennessy not impressed with Chakrabarti:
“But, in truth, Chakrabarti’s letter is massively over the top. Burnham’s comments were obviously ill-judged but surely nobody could seriously believe that he was suggesting she had an improper relationship with Davis?
One has to conclude that Chakrabarti, who is much to be admired for depoliticising the civil liberties issue while vigorously banging the drum for it, is in danger of disappearing up her own fundamental rights and freedoms.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politics/threelinewhip/june2008/chakrabarti_burnham.htm
“overlooking the Thanes ”
Glamis, Cawdor or Fife?
Morus and co
(Prior thread) re :the observant Catholic vote potentially going to the Conservatives, this story in the Catholic Herald won’t help…
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000307.shtml
Night all
A most enjoyable evening - great to meet some old friends and newer contributors, gathered to hear words of wisdom from Mr Smithson.
Thanks also to PtP for organising the “do” and particularly good to chat with Double Carpet.
I hope the northern evening proves to be as successful and convivial.
According to BBC website, Burnham speaking of David Davis that it was “very curious in the man who was, and still is I believe, an exponent of capital punishment, having late-night, hand-wringing, heart-melting phone calls with Shami Chakrabarti”.
Note “hear-melting” above. That’s what’s convinced me this is a deliberate smear.
Unless of course New Labour has reformed itself under the superlative leadership of Gordon Brown.
2 - would the honourable & noble member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross qualify?
4 - thanks for the post-debauch report!
“Burnham’s sexist jibe about David Davis and Shami Chakrabarti shows how low the government will stoop to push 42 days.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/19/andyburnham.daviddavis
2 - You changed it now! It did say Thanes before (thought it was quite poetic myself….)
Farage just skewered Davis over 28 days on QT. Never expected that!
Audience now laughing at him…
7 - I don’t know what’s worse, if he meant it or if it was a subconscious reveal.
9 - Not watching it, but I wouldn’t trust your impartiality on this Bob.
QT audience clamours for ID cards!
Just kidding.
9: ‘Audience now laughing at him…’
Eh? I didn’t hear one person in the audience was wasn’t supportive.
5. So, if “S.Chakrabarti” happened to be male, you would be convinced that it was some sort of gay smear?
Chakrabarti is politician, just like Burnham and Davis. The difference is they are elected, she is not. If she wants to play on the field, she has to take the rough with the smooth. In other words, I refer you to Harry Truman’s well-known dictum…
11 - not at all, Davis put up an eloquent and well argued defence of Magna Carta, habeus corpus and all our other freedoms and liberties. Farage then pipes up “So why do you support and why did you vote for 28 days then? What difference does a fortnight make?”
DD had nothing to say to that.
Jo Swinson MP - anyone else thinking “Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no…”?
Re: Harry Truman, note that he once threatened to punch a newspaper music critic in the nose, who gave his daughter Margaret a bad review!
9. Have to agree with Bob and I’m neutral on this.
19. Come on, you’re a Lib Dem…
David Davis now on QT being challenged on his decision to resign and trigger a by election over 42 Days. His decision is looking increasingly ridiculous to me. Dimbleby highlighting the fact that he is up against a rag tag of opponents including Mad Cow from the OMRLP. I think this issue is losing what legs it had.
Brown, after the usual dithering, made the right strategic decision here. But Cameron has impressed me the most. He has handled a very difficult political issue with considerable astuteness and aplomb.
20 So, what has that got to do with it. I didn’t say I was neutral on everything I said I was neutral on this. If anthing you would expect I would support DD on his stand. I agree with Bob (whom I don’t usually agree with). DD put up a very good argument and NF pulled the rug from uder him. I was quite surprised by how quickly the balance of the argument turned. NF was quite impressive (and I certainly don’t support UKIP!)
18. Quite right too. What father wouldn’t?
But
i) I’m quite certain he wasn’t acting in the official capacity as President of the United States when he made his threat….
ii) his dictum invoked the field of politics, not music…
Agreed. Davis had chance to skewer pompous Hilary Benn, but he just repeated his old lines. Is a pity - davis just appears a bit slow. Slow to get his point out (build up always too long).
It started to look like it was only the *manner* by which 42 days was decided on - the ’squalid, tawdry …’ etc that wound him up - that looks like vanity
Davis spoke quite well and was received by the audience quite well; but it was hardly Henry V at Agincourt.
Presumably the next time Mr Farage is caught speeding just 1mph over the limit, or with alcohol in his blood just 1ml over the limit, he’ll claim “What difference does it make?” After all if 60mph is fine why should 61mph be so problematic?
Sorry I couldn’t join you guys this evening.
21- Davis’s decision always seemed bizarre to me, and I was a bit surprised to see the public support for his re-election in spite of general disagreement with his position. As I mentioned before, maybe this spectacle really won’t amount to much of anything and will already be a mere curiosity of political history by the time of the next general election.
20. I would have thought from my posts in the past it was obviously that I don’t push a party line (unlike many) even though I am a LD.
Also I happen to like DD a lot as person, even though I don’t agree with many of his views. In particular because I’ve never seen him get personal and I think he argues a logical case. I actually haven’t formed an opinion on whether he should have done what he has done. I thought he put a good case tonight and then NF (whom I also like) was very effective.
There aren’t many politicans that I do like, but these are 2 of a few exceptions.
Farage came over really well - sounded much more like “a bloke” than an over-excited nutter.
28. kjh. Agreed. Farage was very good tonight. When I’ve seen him before he has been much more populist and OTT, usually shouting quite a lot. Couldn’t help quite liking him this evening!
26. He would in all probability not be prosecuted. The Police err on the side of the motorist in each case…
29. disgusted. Snap!
30: I concur re Farage, it was much less “Nigel Deranged” than usual, once he’d got his anti-Brussels rantings out of his system.
Was interesting to hear Davis respond to the Euro-bile with the comment “Actually, I have a lot of sympathy for Nigel’s views on Europe”.
Really?
Davis for UKIP? Or DD furthering his Tory leadership ambitions?
So how was the meeting??
31 — so you don’t believe in fixed speed limits? Or fixed blood-alcohol levels? Or fixed ages of consent?
Why should 42 days be unacceptable while 28 is? Farage might as well argue that since 20mph in a built-up area is OK, 21mph should be too.
I hope Phillipe followed his instinct and bet on Germany to go through. If you did …..congratulations!
35. I believe in them all. But they are flexibly enforced, like all good laws.
Yes, Farage sounds ok - but he stands for very little really.
He is unlikely ever to get an elected UKIP into the H of C.
I doubt the UKIP will do as well at the next PEP election.
35. More to the point, if someone is deemed mentally deficient - why should they be locked up for 28 days then assesded but someone under suspicion of terriosm be banged up for 42 days?
38 Martin top analysis as always.
There is only room for one right wing (ie freedom) party which is Conservatives who will win 400+ in GE2010!
Martin: you and i now represent the sensible broad-spectrum viw here!
40 viw = view!!
41,Which season sees:
(I’m jesting in the 1% chance you had not noticed! :lol:)
(a)Watford’s promoiton to the Premeirship
(b)Then Watford winning the Prem?!
40.
I see Boris has written to Lord Rennard complaining about a Lib Dem Supposed Independent Oxfordshire Magazine which turns out to be a piece of electioneering. They tried a similar trick up here last year during the Scottish elections and were roundly condemned.
The actual “magazine” is here and tries to make it look like Boris is comparing the candidates.
Just back from the pb.com party. Was extremely enjoyable. Everyone in good form. It was a pleasant way to spend an evening. Nice to put a few more names to faces.
39. because the one is intended to protect the person from himself, and the other is intended to protect society from terrorist attack. Why should there be any connection between the two in the length of time anyhow? One is a medical issue, the other criminal…
44 - Very shabby indeed, close to criminally fraudulent.
“Food bills up, house prices sliding, pay rises below inflation … but Labour minister says: Stop being so MISERABLE”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1027844/Food-bills-house-prices-sliding-pay-rises-inflation—Labour-minister-says-Stop-MISERABLE.html
Oh dear, Portillo is dyeing his hair…
46 “the other is a criminal”. No that is not correct. I still believe in this country you were innocent until proven guilty. So you are only a criminal when found guilty. You may be charged but still not guilty. The 42 day issue relates to how long it is until you are either charged or released. In neither case are you at that time guilty.
49-Cameron too!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politics/threelinewhip/june2008/david-cameron-hair-dye.htm
44 - shows they’re rattled.
Anyone else thinking Zac Goldsmith’s time has gone - still banging on about Priuses when people are desparate to find the cash to fill up any sort of tank.
Portillo is hammering easily.
42 LOL i noticed the 1% confidence interval!
A bit before Lab win another election!!!!!!!
TEE HEE HEE
PS how’s bournemouth - is is straight in with the -15 next season? that’s competitive!
Bournemouth = blue square
52 LOL cons rattled i dont think so
Are you kingston?
LDs =
L
O
L
O
L
O
L
54 really?
How about this from politics home from the normally viscerally anti Lib Dem Kevin Maguire?
http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/maguire/2008/06/henley-issues.html
50. I meant (obviously) a criminal law issue, instead of a medical health issue.
You said: “I still believe in this country you were innocent until proven guilty.” No-one is saying they aren’t innocent until proved guilty.
By your logic, no-one could ever be arrested, because they might be innocent. There has to be a practical trade-off, surely…
56 LOL top analysis!
Have you been to Twickenham in your time?
OK the thread has finished goodnight all!!!!!!!!!
57. You have now corrected your self. I fail to see where my logic prevents anyone from being arrested. The issue relates to how long someone can be held whilst the authorities search for evidence of guilt. If there is insufficient for them to be charged then they remain innocent.
53 Luton Town were the unlucky recipienst of a 15 point deduction;it pains me to admit that I do feel sorry for them,but,if you look at that division,8-11 clubs will push for the 3 automatic spots and four paly-offs-I see no reason why Bournemouth and Luton Town (look at Leeds last year) will not be in the mix.
(P.S I have made it obvious enough and plain enough on here-I an a HAMMER-a fan of West Ham United Football Club-through family conncetions-sorry,I just had to get that off my chest,no offence meant!)
61 LOL
No offence taken
WHU = LOL anyway!
Hope bournemouth stay up
ALL LDs = LOL
56 = all about the teddington!
LOL
48. Of course, this is the big news at the moment and will continue to be for the next couple of years. For all the David Davis, 42 Days, Lisbon Treaty and “Nannygate” stuff that comes and goes and we get very excited about, in the end its the economy thats the big issue. The cut in living standards that people are about to face is going to be unbeliveably painful for the country that in some way has become spoilt and has become accutomed to being able to buy whatever they want to buy and when they want to buy it. Theres an entire generation of people that have no idea what a recession or even hard economic times feel like. What a shoch it will be for those people.
Juxtaposed to the rising cost of living and fall in living standards, we’re going to see a massive housing correction, increasing unemployment, probbaly rising interest rates, lower growth (and if rates do go up, then it becomes quite likely that we’ll actually get a qurater or two of negative growth next years, IMO) Politically of course, this is all devestating for Gordon Brown and Labour, but much more important theres going to be a lot of very poor people over the next year or so, and they will be hurting badly. Lets just hope we don’t have a cold winter on top of all this economic misery, because frankly, millions of people are going to find it hard to even keep the heating on!
To Mike S and Petra the Temptress,
To confirm that some modest betting was forthcoming amidst tonight’s debauchery:
John O and Benedict W have wagered £5 that if the Govt majority on the 42 days clause (assuming the Lords reject it) in the next Commons vote is 9 or more seats, BW will pay that princely sum to JO’R. And vice versa if the margin is less (naturally also if the govt is defeated.
Signed and sealed in the presence of the Learned Cicero.
62 Hmm,as West ham have spent 42 of the last 50 years in English soccer’s top flight (a stat I know off by herat wihtout checking),I assert,with the greatest rspect to Watford (who I like-my A level Govt+Politics lecturer was a life-long Hornet),that West Ham have greater claim,to ,well,at least top flight status.
You inadvertently start an interesting debate re Bournemouth-it is a fact that 1 in 3 of Bournemouth’s population are only one generation removed from London ie Mum/Dad/aunt/uncle-and hence a MOUNTAIN of Arsenal/Chelsea/Spurs (Yeah,I guess those bastards have to live somewhere :lol).Hammers,and all the other lower div London clubs-they are all well represnted in Bournemouth.
Before you look at the other provincial cities-Birmingham,Manchestre,Liverpool,Newcasle,Glasgow-I believe I am very near accuracy when I quote only >10% of Bournemouth residents are sons/daughters of people born in Bournemouth.In other words,its pretty cosmopolitan!
RE: PB BBQ, BTW when you Brits have a cookout, what exactly do you grill. Saw several mentions of ‘burgers” which I assume means the good old USA hamburger (not “Burgher of Calais” burghers!)
But what about hot dogs, chicken, steaks. And down in southern Louisiana in “coonass” (Cajun) country also includes boiled crawfish!
Whatever you et, glad a good time was had by all!
Re: the “smear” two random thoughts related to point made above:
1. Going to court is a fundamental civil right, so no contradiction in suing someone for libel if you’ve been smeared.
2. By definition, the smear was NOT political, though of course commited with political intent. It was and is a personal attack relating to alleged sexual, not political, conduct.
66 “Juxtaposed to the rising cost of living and fall in living standards, we’re going to see a massive housing correction, increasing unemployment, probbaly rising interest rates, lower growth (and if rates do go up, then it becomes quite likely that we’ll actually get a qurater or two of negative growth next years, IMO) Politically of course, this is all devestating for Gordon Brown and Labour”
Well Labour starts this period almost 20% behind in the polls. Where will they be in a year’s time if the above scenario takes place as expected? Anything would appear possible.
By the way, on the last thread there were lots of comments about Shami Chakrabarti’s supposed humourlessness. I don’t know her myself, but friends do, and they have universally told me that sh’es both funny and charming in person. I found this hard to believe based on her media profile, which I dislike intensely, but I’m told she’s really nice, FWIW.
That said, I think she and Davis have gone completely gone OTT, and as I said in the other thread threatening to sue someone who says something you don’t like is a rather odd stance for Liberty to take.
I suspect her anger is real and probably feels justified but nevertheless it’s still strikes me as foolish and counter productive. I’ve reacted angrily to a personal slur in my time too, on a far smaller scale - and I suspect I was the one who ended up looking stupid.
5.”Note “hear-melting” above. That’s what’s convinced me this is a deliberate smear.”
I soon as I read the article that bit jumped out at me and the meaning was pretty clear. Apparently quite a few MP’s across the political parties were not impressed with Burnham’s attempted smear either, most see themselves as fair game, but I think he broke the golden rule of not involving innocent bystanders.
Burnham attempted to attack the man not the ball in a very cynical bid to undermine Davis, but if you are going to sling mud make sure that it just hits the intended victim. Burnham sprayed it around with no thought to the others he hit. Shami has a family, and so does Davis and Burnham, I suspect that he would have been livid if some tried something similar with him.
As usual with Labour they have gone for a short term strategy of trying to undermine Davis without thinking out how it looks. They won’t stand and fight him on the arguments, instead they will try and trash him as an individual politician. I see the message is to try and make him pay for this by election, it just makes me want to see someone set up a fighting fund to pay for it, I would donate, but I want to see the message of the shoddy horse trading that went on to get that vote through exposed. I hope that Davis points out that Labour could afford a 2 billion+ tax give away in an attempt to help them win C&N.
I was
amazednot at all surprised to see the Gallumphing Porcine Hippopotataoiseach saying that the result of the Irish referendum should be “analysed” and that they should consider the “options” of how the “problem” should be “solved” - or words to that effect. Will it be another 50 years before these deranged EU-fanatics understand what “No” means? It was also reported that the UK government has set a 4-month “deadline” for finding a “solution” - without apparently understanding what “dead” means.Re 67, John O , The bet is confirmed. Excellent evening as expected.
Mind you I almost got off at the wrong station! In fact I did and was half way out before I realised and got back on the train.
Re 74, JohnLoony, Yes, perhaps as in sexual relations we should emphasise that no really does mean NO!
Any word on the lib dem henley bombshell ? I have my own views.
Was Question time and this week on ? I just got football. should i have perervered?
73 -Yes, “heart-melting” is clearly a romantic/sexual as opposed to political attack.
There are some that think that the “toff” attack in the Crewe and Nantwich byelection was the only way that Labour could bring out their base. Personally think that’s bunk.
But apparently the weenies now at the helm of the Good Ship New Labour are all our of fresh ideas. So all they can come up with are smears like their spiritual buddies Karl Rove and the ghost of Lee Atwater.
Sincerely hope they all get to have their own BBQ and get-together . . . in one of the lower circles of hell . . .
70. Come on, SSI. I know you happen to come from a particularly litigious culture (no fault of yours, my learned counsel hastens to add), but…
i) De minimis non curat lex
ii) Lapsus Linguæ
Thanks to Andy Burnham’s comments Labour have managed to keep the David Davis story in the news.
Shami Chakrabarti threatens to sue Andy Burnham over ‘slur’
Chakrabarti threatens to sue over minister’s jibe
Frontpage by the looks of it in the Independent.
What a liberty! Chakrabarti in threat to sue over Tory ’smear’
The Mr Nice Guy who talked his way into a nasty situation
“His friends are speculating on the reason behind his remarks in the Blairite Progress magazine. Few believe it was merely a gaffe, but think it could have been part of a carefully managed campaign designed to shatter support for David Davis’s stand in a by-election that backfired disastrously.
That could explain why the normally affable Mr Burnham is said to be “absolutely furious” at being caught up in the row.”
Shami Chakrabarti threatens to sue Andy Burnham over David Davis jibes
73.
“innocent bystander” LOL
She’s just another bumptious, humourless, self-important drone in the PC/race-relations industry, masquerading as a defender of “liberty”…
This woman has become some sort of poster-girl for the PC media left - witness the entire front page of today’s Independent given over to her, as if she’s some cause-celebre like Joan of Arc or Alfred Dreyfus, not to mention her being exclusively consulted by the British Brainwashing Corporation like some fecking Oracle, on the question of life, liberty, 42-days and everything…
In the real world she’s the head of an obscure pressure-group founded in the 1930s, ffs….
but in loony lefty make-believe she’s
“the most powerful Asian woman in Britain”
“one of the 10 people who run Britain”
“Most Inspiring Political Figure”
oh, and “Innocent bystander”…..
Farage is good speaker.
UKIP’s a mess.
It is also part of a group in the European Parliament that doesn’t believe the nations should withdraw from the EU.
Confused?
Yes.
79 - It wasn’t an “off the cuff” throwaway comment. It was an article in Prospect (Progress?) magazine!
81 CrosRodby some more thought on Shami
Female MPs claimed the smear tactic would deter women from political life. Eleanor Laing, a shadow Justice minister, said: “This sort of innuendo undermines women in positions of power and influence. If the director of Liberty had been a man, would Andy Burnham have said this?”
Susan Kramer, the Liberal Democrats’ most senior woman MP, said: “This kind of tawdry salacious gossip about any young woman who becomes prominent in the political world is really shocking. It is going to drive young women out of politics if it continues.”
Labour MPs joined in the condemnation. Linda Riordan, the MP for Halifax, said: “I don’t think there is a need for that sort of comment, whoever it is from. Shami is a professional woman. He should apologise.”
Perhaps your new found faith in Labour is somewhat slanting your opinion?
Is Ros Crodby secretly jealous of Shami’s closeness to David Davis?
82.
“Farage is good speaker. ”
But totally bonkers in a way which makes Boris seem like the Dalai Lama. I’m still waiting for him to launch into a tirade about this Herr Deier who has now taken over the Conservative Party leadership.
78. SSI, New Labour have always been thus. Just think of poor David Kelly. I think you are falling into the trap of supporting a party in another country just because of the political situation in your home one.
“The constitution is dead: just bury it”
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=11580732
Good to see y’all. Prawns were excellent.
I think Farage did come across quite well on QT. Was intrigued by his comment that he supported an EU which was just a trading zone in which we could all ‘work and trade together’. Last time I checked, UKIP were anti-migration. I recall a feature once in which he went to eastern Europe, explaining why he was against ‘them’ coming over ‘here’.
[86] “But totally bonkers in a way which makes Boris seem like the Dalai Lama”
SSI:
- Burgers- check
- Sausages- check
- Steak- check
- Marinated Prawns- check
- Kebabs- check
- Thick clouds of acrid black smoke across the (non smoking) terrace at the NLC- check
- friendly cross party chit-chat and the cut and thrust of enjoyable debate- check
- fulminations and ranting after eating sushi from the quivering body of a ladyboy in the seedy districts of Bangkok- aah, no- that must be someone else.