Is this the right way for Labour to attack Cameron?
April 18th, 2006
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What do people think of tonight’s PPB?
This evening saw the much launch of Labour’s much hyped vehicle to attack David Cameron. If you did not see the party political broadcast you can download it here.
I’ve played it several times now and I just cannot work out whether it’s very clever and is going to have an impact or whether it’s just boring.
The central message seems to be - don’t trust this guy because he’ll say whatever those he’s speaking to want him to hear. Now who does that remind me of?
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Effective political propaganda has to resonate with its target audience if it is to be effective. It has to pick up a truth that people will recognise and then magnify it in a form that will start to affect the way the target is perceived.
Does Dave the Chameleon do that? I’m not so sure. Whatever we are going to see a lot more of him in the coming weeks.
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
The “Dave, the Chameleon” is funny, but I’m not sure it’ll be successful.
As a tory I found it funny but not the way Labour intended.
Labour advertising that David Cameron is trying to change the tory party while retaining its core values!
It just made me think of the “Carlsberg” ads.
“Carlsberg doesn’t do the Conservative’s PR but if it did……..”
2. the key is if voters will perceive it in the way you did or in other ways.
3. Very profound (!) although you may be making the mistake of thinking this broadcast will actually be watched by many voters. It won’t.
What is the average viewing audience for a PPB. ?
This has considerable boomerang potential, when I remember another politician who told one readership (in Sedgefield) that his favourite meal was fish and chips, while telling another readership (in Islington) that his favourite meal was something involving sun-dried tomatoes.
Potts and Kettles spring to mind.
4. is it ironic?
tell me it, so I would know if I’ve to laugh!
5 AnnaK. The figures vary dramatically depending on the preceeding and following programmes. A slot before Emmerdale might bring in upto 8 million ….. now whether they are watching ….
My sense is that the Labour campaign team have been under pressure to “do something about Cameron” and this is the (expensive?) response. It will probably cheer the activists up - but what about voters?
Looking at the polling numbers Cameron is still the great unknown - with barely half of those asked in a range of surveys having any opinion at all. Will the ad affect them?
It might. It could be in a year’s time when Dave the Chameleon has become a “brand” that people will look at it and say it was brilliant.
The risk for Labour is that it gets accused of going negative which surveys show turn voters off.
8. Cara Andrea I thought your comment was a rather obvious one, that’s all….
I would have thought that the “all things to all people” line is a very high risk strategy for an unpopular govt. The danger is that you just end up giving everyone an excuse to vote for him. Swing voters will pick up on the “talks about things that concern people” message, die hard Tories will home in on the “true to Conservative principles” message. It’s just helping Cameron to put up his big tent.
I think it shows Labour are scared of Dave. What is great is that they pick up on political stunts like riding the bike and are really negative about it. Have they forgotten 1997? Blair talks about that year so much you would think he could remember the ‘fish and chips’ comment as Richard highlights above.
I thought it was pathetic. Just a slightly different take on the feeble ‘vote for us, we’re not the Tories’ message of the GE. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
12. boswell: caro, please!
But I promise you next time I’ll try to live up your expectations and match the politically deepness of your comment @4.
So let’s get this right. Chameleron is a bad thing because he ‘is a Liberal Conservative’ and has modelled himself on Labour leader Tony Blair? So how has he modelled himself on Tony Blair? Well apparently he has no principles and is all things to all men, flavour of the month.
As Paxman might say: “Hmm Yerrrrsssss.”
Completely the wrong line of attack.
I mentioned on the previous thread the only way that I can see the pre-policy decisions Cameron being attacked successfullu and that’s by painting him as at odds with the rest of his party.
This is just meaningless to the vast majority of people. In actual fact, as others have suggested, it’s quite a sweet little thing and not rigidly dogmatic, just the message that Cameron wants to give off in the first place.
15. Scusi….
18. It’s better now….
btw, Cameron advised voters to back “any party” other than the far-right British National party in the local elections on May 4…..so is it ok to back the “closet racist” (according to him) UKIP?
19. Presumably the watered down article is preferable to the full strength one.
Has anyone got an idea of how much this cost Labour?
This was one of the worst party political broadcasts I’ve ever seen from a governing party, embarrassing and patronising.
I think many Conservative posters are making the mistake of thinking that this line of attack has been conjured up on the back of a fag packet. This PPB, like Tory ones, will have been tested before different target focus groups, NOT Tory party members, to dwell on the perceived weaknesses of Cameroon.
If TB is able to portray Cameroon as a fickle, flip flopper, not to be trusted with the economy and great matters of state, then the job will be done. As it is the most recent polling has Cameroons personal poll rating fall 13 points. He can’t allow that to happen too often in the next few months.
Jack W, it won’t work, the failure of Labour blinds attacks on the Tories, they see it only as political moenevouring by labour as the vast, vast majority don’t know what Cameron is talking about except the Green stuff.
“And tonight on Top of the Pops, its Boy George Osborne and his latest hit, ‘Cammer Chameleon’!”
24 Jaz. If that was the case then the Tories would be leading in the polls by 12 points or more. They ain’t, because Labour still has a deal of credit in the bank for its’ handling of the economy and the Tories are yet to appear a credible government in waiting and DC an alternate PM.
Tony Blair set out a different approach for the Labour Party, he genuinely changed it. As yet there is no evidence that `Dave’ is doing the same to the Tory Party. If he does change the substance and not just the language this campaign will not work. But even today DC reinforces the idea that he is not really changing his party just its’ image. Vote Blue, Go Green implies that going Green is only a matter of personal reponsibility, and not government policy - it is surely both.
Didn’t Labour abandon Socialism? They are Chameleon, so are the ‘New Labour’ Tories. Bring on the English Democrats!!
They made a valid point about David changing to Dave though didn’t they. It’s not the sort of thing that Tony, er Maggie, er Ted er…Sir Alec Douglas Home would have done.
28 francis. Now that was funny !
“Every day is like a survival
You’re my lover not my rival
“Every day is like a survival
You’re my lover not my rival”
“I’m a man without conviction
I’m a man who doesn’t know
How to sell a contradication
You come and go
You come and go”
What a shame there is no Spitting Image any more. I could see a spiffing Dave and Tony duet here.
How much do you think it cost to make.?
O/T If Ming really liked the Jag he should have kept it.
My hunch is this will stick because though naff to posters on PB.C it meets the three key criteria for an effective brand attack.
a/ it uses humour (allegedly) as a vehicle rather than a purportedly serious attack construct (eg: demon eyes)
b/ it’s based on an already growing perception that DC flip flops, and
c/ it has a simple, easy to remember tag line in “Dave the Chameleon”
Clever, very clever…..
And while we’re on a mucial theme, has Cammer Chameleon an undeclared admiration for New Order?
“Vote blue, go green - about the gills”
btw, I saw there’re “Dave, the Chameleon” cups….I want one of them!
32 AnnaK. Around £250K.
31 - I had something like that in mind, Zeb. Perhaps one of our Meeja lurkers will pick up on it
I think its is very amusing. The Labour propaganda machine is back to its best after the disastrous Fagin nonsense. I think it may very well work. I like much of what he says but am worried about what he, and his party, really stand for. Dave the Camellion points this out very obviously and slickly. DC must remember that not all media wizzs are in his corner.
Made an amusing change from the usual run of PPBs. I don’t think it’ll have a dramatic effect, but it’s too light-hearted and almost friendly to wind people up like the demon eyes poster did (though I must admit I liked that too). Intellectual viewers will I suspect tend to be sniffy about it, but it will reinforce the view of half the sample in a recent poll (IIRC) that the New Tories are really just a marketing dodge.
31, 36, 37 - Jack, you don’t fancy coming out of retirement do you?
Jacj has it about right. This thing has been researched to death with the correct target market. if you thought it was crap then you aren’t the market they were aiming it at. My guess though is that they decided to take a punt and see whether it gained any traction. If further research tells them it has then this is just the beginning. Expect the campaign to get more sophisticated as it becomes more familiar. There again if it doesn’t research well it’ll be dropped. For my taste it was too negative and gave Cameron a stature he doesn’t yet deserve. As for cost…….a fortune.
[29] But Sir Alexander Douglas-Home did just that… I think of recent Tory leaders only Herself and Hague have used their full first names.
I think the ad itself does mark a new low in political campaigning - it’s more or less saying that there’s no positive reason to vote Labour and (assuming that it has been properly “road-tested”) is simply trying to appeal to the presumed gut anti-toryism of the “floating voter” by portraying Cameron as a reptile. I liked the stretch limo, though…
42 - John Major?
Does anyone know where you can get it suitable to view on MSN media? I can’t pay the .mov file.
40 Tabman.
…More comebacks than Dean Martin … hic
Labour has the support of barely 20% of the electorate. All this talk about the support that they retain should be read in that light. Put another way, 80% of people of voting age in this country remain so unenthused by this supposed behemoth of economic glory that they can’t bring themselves to put a cross next to their name.
In most other countries labour wouldn’t have had even a sniff at power last year.
“This thing has been researched to death.”
You are assuming the researchers are very good. I imagine some research company and Focus Group somewhere said “Yeah! Ginger man at conference in Sheffield! Far out!”
In the meantime, what are the odds on Rory Bremner trying to do the Cameo Chamerelion duet?
46 ukpaul. That just means the others enjoy even worse support !!
Before I watched it online I thought it would make me laugh. I didn’t laugh at all. I thought it was well made but silly.
I thought it was entertaining - a rare vaguely diverting PPB and a successful way of dressing up a pretty vicious attack as “just a bit of fun”. It is quite a distinctively British speciality - something really brutal dressed up as light hearted banter.
Don’t know whether it will work. It is not really designed for those of us with firm political allegiances so it is hard to judge. But as has been mentioned it will have been road tested. I suppose it is the sort of thing which will provoke short conversations over a pint whereas most PPBs don’t.
I don’t like the voice (especially at the beginning)
Having worked out how to watch it I see they’ve used the Culture Club lyrics. So we can guess the age of the people who devised it
One point I would make is that I thought it was a bit too slickly animated. Personally, I would have done it in Roobarb & Custard style animation to really ham up the silly, farcical aspect which I think is there with Dave - he can be very pantomime.
If you remember the leaden footed 4x commercials that launched the campaign and compare them to the ones that are running now where almost nothing needs to be said…..well the same applies to this. The first one needed a lot of simplistic explanation because a lot of viewers knowledge of politics will be limited. The hope will be that this chameleon idea gets a life of it’s own.
New Labour = New Tory = New Liberal Democrat = Anglophobia = Sleaze = Political Correctness = Hypocracy. Bring on an English Parliament, vote English Democrats.
nice one francis. cheers for adding to the debate there.
Well done Tabman almost spot on!
But do people believe Labour anymore?.
54 - I can see the opposition guys desperate to get Hilary Benn as labour leader so they can do a ‘Mr Benn’ animation.
BTW What’s this Euston manifesto rubbish that the blogosphere is larking about with? Desperate self justification becauise Iraq’s gone pear shaped?
Hat tip to the blog that summed it up as follows -
( http://libsoc.blogspot.com/ )
1. Islamists are t*ssers.
2. Stalinists are t*ssers.
3. Most Trots are t*ssers.
4. So are most Labour leftists.
5. And most anarchists.
6. And every variety of post-modernist.
7. Sign up if you’re a leftie who agrees with these points.
Will exerpts of the ppb be available on mobile phones? If so, it could go viral very quickly. It may not be very good, but if it gets seen by enough people, even as a gimmick, then the job’s been done.
55 - I hadn’t thought of that before, Francis. I am almost totally certain the nation will rise as one and do just that rather than ignoring them as if they were a bunch of obsessive weirdos. Or perhaps not. Who can tell?
55 - Is “Hypocracy” a new form of electoral system?
Government by those who don’t do what they say they will?
If this ad was done by Trvor Beattie-known for his FCUK campaign for French connection-which seems very likely then his speciality is producing cost free ads which generate pages of editorial rather than having to pay for ads.
Labour have got two problems with attacking DC:
1) Voters see him as a “nice” man, although not necessarily competent or experienced. Attacking “nice” people is not “nice”, so attacking DC will increasingly make Labour seem the new “nasty” party.
2) DC hasn’t enunciated many (any?) policies. Attacking before he does may lead to voter fatigue. (”Oh ignore them, they’re always attacking the Tories.”)
It might well be more sensible to wait until he has actually made some commitments and then attack him.
“DC hasn’t enunciated many (any?) policies………”
Wasn’t that the point of the broadcast?
62 - would hypocracy in fact mean “rule from beneath”?
64 - But it’s clever because it doesn’t look like an “attack ad” but rather light hearted ribbing. Deceptively so, but it looks like a jolly jape nonetheless.
66 James. Well Andrea and I prefer pink hippocracy !!
62 - I think it is “hippocracy” - government by horses… (Princess Anne, Margaret Beckett…)
Jack. Did you work on Spitting image? I did a voice over with Enn Reitel because the celeb we had booked was so drunk he couldn’t do it. Enn did it better than our man could have even if he’d been sober but the client got cold feet and wouldn’t run it.
Is there a PMQs tomorrow? I find it very interesting that DC said he would end yah-boo politics, but has been very yah-booish recently.
DTC is a clever piece of work and a very well put together PEB. There are nice touches and it came across as being humerous and easy to follow. However…
1. Too many people still think: It must be Blair they are talking about
2. It does push home the Tory message of change within traditional conservative values
It was a very watchable broadcast and will run. Labour still don’t know how to deal with Dave. I’m not sure this is the answer but it is the best they could have come up with at this moment. Labour are on for a 4th May pasting so why not try out some lines of attack and see if any work? They have nothing to lose at this stage and everything to gain.
71. yes and Nick Palmer will be the first to ask a question
70 roger. Drunkeness on the “Spit” ….. shocking allegation !!
According to The Times, around 450 people applied to tories Priority List. Aroudn a quarter are women and the Priority List should include 70 women
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,17129-2140892,00.html
If the figures are true, there will be much more competition among the men and less among the women (half of the ones who apllied should make the priority list)
75 - does this mean that the next crop of new Tory MPs will be as dire as Blair’s babes?
This PPB shows New Labour hasn’t got much positive to say about itself so it has to resort to personal insults.
The snarling cynical voice used in the PPB sounded like there was joy to be had in attacking Cameron. As Once-bitten says it makes Labour look like the new nasty party.
Cameron was looking very environmentally friendly in the news reports. How is saying he is Green as well as “true blue,” going to deter voters?
To say Cameron is a man of many colours may play to his advantage.
If Labour can throw these sort of insults at political leaders, certainly people like myself will continue to reserve the right to describe Bush and Blair in unflattering terms and there is little Labour activists should be able to say about it.
More people know who Cameron is than did before.
This and Hodge talking up the BNP vote, show how absolutely desparate Labour are.
Talk of the taxpayer funding this sort of crap by financing political campaigns is an insult.
75 - does this mean that the next crop of new Tory MPs will be as dire as Blair’s b*bes?
I don’t think it will work, I don’t think the public think that way about Cameron, and I don’t think this will persaude them to think that way about Cameron…but it is oh so funny!
77. SBS, I think that if a party is making a list of the best candidatesm quotas shouldn’t be decided.
I thought the problem was that there was strong female candidates who weren’t selected for some mysterious reasons. I thought the point was to help them to get selected (if they deserve it) and not to have just a “number” of female candidates.
If so, quotas are not needed. The commitee would have put in the list the deserving female candidates. If there’re 100 deserving women, put all of them in the Priority List and if there’re just 50 good women, put just 50 in the list
Finally, I think people are too harsh with the Blair’s ba*es. There were some appaling MPs (The Venerable Helen and the Fugitive), but there’re bad male MPs too
62,66 i thought hippocracy was the way othe the modern medical profession
Cracking ppb
Dave the Chameleon is spot on, and he even helped the story along today by saying vote blue get green. A test of how good it is will be if the journos start to use it, and already on newsnight tonight they portrayed Dave on his pushbike changing colour from blue to green in response to his ridiculous climate change stunt (btw doesn’t he have access to the internet? Why go all the way to Norway to find out that it exists? There’s plenty of evidence available re climate change - just go play on the web. His trip to norway just shows what an opportunist he is.)
78. OTOH. I’ve watched it some more, and I think it may have some merit-it displays Cameron as being quite immature, and not a serious politician. IMO this may have some resonance, while the Chameleon changing colour won’t. That said, its not exactly being positive about Labour…
81 blue combined with yellow gives green - I’m a Liberal conservative.
81 - What happened to Bingo, Droopy and Snorky?
http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/images_tv/bananasplits_02.jpg
On second thoughts, isn’t that the treasury team?
Hey, I thought you guys on this site are supposed to be the political sophisticates. Negative advertising doesn’t work huh? (eg posts 10, 41, 76, 82) My bottom! Of course it works, no matter how many voters tell pollsters they don’t like it. Dave the Chameleon had better decide which colour he wants to be - and stick to it - very soon else he is going to be defined by this attack. he needs to get his policy positions sorted pretty damn quick now cos Labour is on to him
Oh, and re mobile clips - yes you can get them - go to http://www.davethechameleon.com
81: Thanks for that UKPaul.
Like our host, I think it’s too early to know if the Cameron/Chameleon jibe will stick.
It rather depends on whether Cameron is able to square the circle of being a nice, fluffy guy to woo back moderate voters - while also being a tough bastard who can crack the whip in his own party to prove the Tories have changed.
Can he “sell this contradiction”? (http://oxfordliberal.blogspot.com/2006/04/karma-cameron.html)
85 - All together now….
DES BROWNE
Two Banana, four banana, one banana, three
Swinging like a bunch of monkeys hanging from a tree
DAWN PRIMAROLO
Hey there everybody won’t you come along and see
How much like Banana Splits everyone can be
GORDON BROWN
Making up a mess of fun,
Making up a mess of fun
Lots of fun for everyone
EVERYONE TOGETHER
Tra la la, la la la la, Tra la la, la la la la
Tra la la, la la la la, Tra la la, la la la la”
I think this has legs. Quick, change the next tory PPB to a ‘Banana Splits’ send up!
Actually, I thought it was quite funny and light-hearted. Probably too much so to be effective as most people who bothered to take note will simply have laughed. Can’t see this having a lasting effect unless future instalments are more hard-hitting.
To the smug, lyric-quoting Lib Dems above, wouldn’t it really be something if one of other two parties actually saw you lot as enough of a thread to drop a £250,000 attack on? Now, the thought of that is really funny!
It may remind Conservatives why they dont like Cameron.
However, with cycle and helmet, it looked very eco friendly. It could strike a sympathetic chord with Vegetarians & Tree huggers, ie, traditional Labour voters.
Quite right AHM… http://www.libdems4cameron.com was a figment of our collective febrile imaginations.
It’s amazing how myths start isn’t it. Just been reading this whole thread, and am very interested by posts 6 and 13 re fish and chips / sundried toms.
I actually wrote the original Labour leaflet that included the piece about TB’s favourite food - and fish and chips (on a Friday night from a chippy in the constituency) is what he said. And it’s complete b******s to suggest that he went on to say that sun dried tomatoes was his fave food; he simply isn’t that stupid. It’s malevolent journos making things up that gullible people believe, trot out and never check, and it becomes established as fact cos no one ever bothers to challenge it. Well, Richard, you’re plain wrong.
Just a quick comment. I’m a Conservative candidate in the local elections and putting the content of the broadcast to one side, I found it clever, quirky and well put together - as you would expect from the new Labour PR machine.
I’ll have to watch it a few times (unlike the majority which is worth remembering), but I get the impression that it is somehow re-enforcing the message that the Conservatives are now a serious threat to Labour and it hints at desperation.
Ironically, this idea could have been used by the Conservatives in ‘97 with Blair !
Highlighting the core values / change message is a big mistake IMO coming as it does from ‘New Labour’. That could backfire.
I have a gut feeling that there is something about this cartoon thing that will have the reverse effect on many floating voters. It’s negative but somehow makes DC seem more likeable?
Overall, it’s fun and made me laugh… laughing with DC not at him.
91 - I’m afraid I cannot comment on your febrile imagination, Stephen, but LibDems4Cameron was something put together quite quickly to exploit a moment of weakness within Lib Dem ranks, probably on the cheap, and was not promoted in a series of PPBs. Clearly the two are not in the same league, but I do agree that both are/were good for a laugh.
91. Stephen, the maps don’t seem to be so accurate….they forgot to colour Birmingham Yardley in yellow…….uless DC’s liberal conservatives could decide which LD MPs are welcomed and which ones aren’t!
OK We have had DC giving UKIP free publicity , Hodge giving BNP free publicity , Nulab giving DC free publicity think it’s about time the Lib Dems said something about themselves and ignored the other parties .
94 - Something put together on the cheap ? Matches DC’s new policies then ?
Lib Dems? who? lol
93 - I certainly agree with that, Matt. Labour wouldn’t be devoting the kinf of money and an entire series of PPBs to attacking David Cameron over the direction he was taking the Conservative Party if they didn’t feel threatened by him. I would have been more worried had they ignored him instead.
Best of luck in your campaign.
96: Ming should have kept the Jag.
97 - Oooohh tut tut, Mark!
On the contrary, our policy commissions have not reported yet - they are being painstakingly hand-crafted. 
100 - Probably, but they do say that leadership is a sacrifice!
101. are you so sure they’ll be report at some point?
103 - Oh, in the fullness of time, Andrea. When the moment is right and at the appropriate juncture; not to put too fine a point on it!
Just watched the PPB. It is really very good, and I think it may catch the public’s imagination. There’s very little in it that is positive for Labour, which as a Liberal Democrat pleases me. It will help the Liberal Democrats if it takes off.
I don’t think it smacks of desperation. The flipflop label is already starting to stick. DC is lampooned as a figure of fun.
Btw, having now looked at the LibDems4Cameron website, I notice there appears to have been a subtle bit of editing since it first appeared.
Originally, the home-page carried the following sentence:
“Issues that once divided Conservatives from Liberal Democrats are now issues where we both agree. Our attitude to devolution and the localisation of power. Iraq. The environment. I’m a liberal Conservative.”
This now reads:
“Issues that once divided Conservatives from Liberal Democrats are now issues where we both agree. Though we were on different sides of the argument over Iraq, we all want to see democracy established, security guaranteed and our troops home. [Etc]”
Another flip-flop…?
105 - Gadzooks! As bad as that SBS? Oh dear. Oh dearie me… I suppose we might just as well quit now and go home if it’s convinced fine (Lib Dem) chaps like you!
Anyone willing to divulge honest information from their early local election returns? I have some lib dem info from Lib Dem v Tory wards in Dorset which indicate the probability of a very small swing from Lib Dem to Tory. I am very interested to know what the indications are in Nu Lab v Tory or Nu Lab v Lib Dem wards are.
All this talk of Cameron spoof I think the Lib Dems got there first with this belter of a website…
http://www.libdems4cameron.co.uk/
I don’t usually watch PPBs but, after all of the hype, I took a look at this one.
I enjoyed it, I was very amused by it, but all it ultimately did was remind me of all the reasons why I’m already so enthusiastic about David Cameron.
106 - Any mention of the 50% tax rate or LIT on the Lib Dem site now, Stephen? What’s that you say, No?? Flip Flop!!!
Now Lib Dems are accused of dirty tricks in bitter battle for Moray
What a surprise! Can it be true?
112 -
Poetic justice!
When things fall apart they have a momentum of their own. Tone can’t bridge this gap by offering a few peerages.
The European Union’s next budget is £20 billion more than Tony Blair said when he unveiled a British-brokered deal last December, a leading Brussels official has claimed.
Or put it another way, the UK rebate will be smaller still than he promised only a few short weeks ago.
Following 112. So the Lib Dems are in with a real chance in Moray???
I see Ann Treneman particularly enjoyed ‘Dave the Chameleon’…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,17129-2140893,00.html
James (53) - Don´t you mean “camp”, when talking about Cameron?
Once-Bitten (could it be Ben, original???) at 64, - I have to say that I don´t see Cameron as either competent or experienced, but neither do I see him aa “nice”.
Depend how you interpret the word “nice”, of course, but I do not see him as nice ( = pleasant) - far too many suggestions about his vile temper to be “nice” in that sense.
Taking up Andrea´s point (at 75)…..
“According to The Times, around 450 people applied to tories Priority List. Aroudn a quarter are women and the Priority List should include 70 women http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ,17129-2140892,00.html. If the figures are true, there will be much more competition among the men and less among the women (half of the ones who apllied should make the priority list)”
The interpretation is that the women candidates will be sub-standard…. umm, yes…….
I wonder how many Tory Constituency Associations will accept the imposition of a sub-standard MP…..
But then the Labour Party did…..
93. I totally agree with you Matt, I read the hype before watching the video and fully expected a very slick , funny and negative attack on David Cameron. Instead I found myself liking “Dave” as the eco friendly liberal conservative who wants to retain tory core values! I could not help laughing at a Labour broadcast which reminded me why I voted for “Dave” in the leadership campaign.
But Matt, 93, when you say:
“I have a gut feeling that there is something about this cartoon thing that will have the reverse effect on many floating voters. It’s negative but somehow makes DC seem more likeable?”
Is “likeable” enough for a future PM? You Tories were disparaging enough about Charles Kennedy (Lib Dem) using those same criteria, and then you used the same criteria to sink your own Ken Clark…. and so you ended up with Cameron (now criticised by Labour on the same grounds). Nice enough on a personal basis, but not really of Prime Ministerial quality.
I have the feeling that sometimes you don´t really know what you Tories do want……
PS. I wish you all the luck you deserve in your local government campaign - but no more…..
A few things have happened in the last few days and I wonder if they are connected.
First a Labour MP has talked-up the BNP.
I cannot think of a good reason why Hodge would hand the BNP all that good publicity. It will obviously boost the BNP vote.
Doesn’t this seem rather strange?
Hodge stated that 8 out of 10 working class families in her consituency would consider voting BNP.
Imagine what the BNP leaflets are going to say in every constituency where they are standing (not just in Barking). Maybe they will produce a Lib Dem style bar chart!
This gives the BNP the best publicity since, well since they were formed.
It gives them a fantastic launchpad for their campaign (although I hate using a word like fantastic when I am talking about a party based on bigotry).
Although Hodge was talking about her experience of knocking on doors, her statements were just prior to the release of a report by the Joseph Rowntree foundation.
There is one MP among the authors of the Rowntree report about the BNP, the Labour MP for Dagenham, neighbour to Patricia Hodge in Barking (the report focuses on those constituencies).
Conventional wisdom is that a rise in BNP will hit poorest Labour areas most.
But that is typically on a very low turnout. How many labour voters can be scared into going out to vote to keep the BNP out?
Hodge’s 8 out of 10 figure does not suggest the poorest areas only.
The Rowntree report states that the BNP have “entered the mainstream of London politics” and that there is a “strong correlation between BNP and UKIP support.”
I may not agree, but the report talks about the “interchangable”
support between BNP and UKIP.
Conditions are ripe the report claims for a “perfect storm” for the BNP.
BNP claim they are doing increasingly well in middle class Conservative areas. A look at the BNP website shows how they are trying to exploit Camerons shift to the left.
So we have BNP being promoted and given publicity by a Labour minister and a ‘Labour friendly’ independent report. It is a boost that could arguably help UKIP as well a few weeks before the local elections.
Then we have the Chameleon PPB. Is this connected with the above?
The Chameleon campaign seems to try and show that Cameron isn’t truly on the right at all, but actually a lefty, green liberal in the clothes of a right.
Do they want to point out Cameron isn’t like Tory leaders before who were often seen going on about immigration and Europe?
Or do they want to say he is, but he pretends to be a liberal green?
Either way, Labour could be to portraying a void at the far right of the Conservative party?
If so, where does this lead us?
Is it the start of a subtle campaign to help UKIP and BNP in these elections?
If so why? I ask the question, but I don’t believe the maths is on the side of Labour by boosting BNP. I have reached no conclusions yet.
Just a theory to think about.
Bad jokes, snidey voice over, digs at people who ride bicycles, negative attack, nothing about their own policies.
Yup. It’s another unfunny and innefective ad from Labour
It’s fair to say that this will be the first on many political attacks by Labour on Cameron over the next three years. What is interesting is that they have gone for a line of attack that has been shown to be effective over the long term. The republican’s attacks on Kerry as a flip flopper were ruthlessly effective in putting doubt about his potential to lead in the voters mind.
A similar strategy is clearly being used by Labour and could seriously damage Cameron if it is pushed up to polling day. Attack adverts rarely produce a reversal in a persons opinion of a politician, they merely place doubt in the voters mind about his credentials. This advert hints that in this dangerous and insecure world is a nice bloke on a bike really the man of the hour. Similar attacks have been effective in this country, just look how effective the Tories attach on Kinnock as unelectable was.
Mean while Cameron is leaving himself open to this charge by swinging in the political breeze like a piece of laundry on the wash line.
Kerry had a 30 year voting record in the Senate to be thrown back at him.
The PPB really is a good illustration of what is wrong with the Labour Party at the moment. It might look clever to the advertising fraternity. To many ordinary voters it will merely confirm the growing disillusionment with politics and the political class in general. What has it got to do with the local government elections? Voters want politicians to discuss the real issues not act as if they are still running for president of the Students Union. As a life long Labour Party member the broadcast reduced me to complete despair.I wonder how the thousands of Peugeot workers felt when they watched such rubbish aftr losing their jobs? It might be boring but politics should be about vision and principles not producing childish attacks on your political opponents. It really is about time some of the so called ‘clever little boys and girls’ who live in the rarified atmosphere of London grew up and looked at the real issues that concern ordinary men and women in this country
Moray, trouble with this is that the leaflets have gone out and people will have already reacted one way or the other. Considering the apparent mess the Conservatives have got themselves in, one might have thought the other parties could take a quieter approach, unless of course it is closer than I would have thought or expected. Nah
This ad shows more about NuLab than it does about Dave; they have nothing to say for themselves after 9 years of government and all the councils they run, but instead play the man not the ball of the opponent. As someone campaigning for the LDs in a Lab/LD marginal, this is a bit of a gift.
I think it probably will stick, as it did for Kerry. Personally I like to see someone who is able to change their mind having more experience and spoken to more people about it, most of his ‘flips’ seem to be principled and well-explained, unlike NuLab policy lurches e.g. top-up fees. I also think that DC can subtly play on this to enhance his nice-guy image.
Labour do seem to be running scared. Here’s hoping for a deserved outcome on May 5th for such a negative campaign.
128 - I sense that the LibDems are quietly hoping that they can move into second place (I don’t think they have grounds to be ‘quietly confident’though) and so this might be evidence of the gloves coming off from them.
A show of strength from them at this stage would send out messages to their prospective SNP and Labour suitors ahead of 2007 and so there is much for them to play for, even if it is not for a win.
120 If correct, then about 60% of the women, and 20% of the men can expect to make it onto the Priority List.
In response to some earlier posts on the thread: according to the Telegraph (which if the website is representative leads with the story) the PPB was made by Labour supporters and cost nothing.
I’m still unsure whether it will have much effect, and if so what. But it’s certainly getting a lot of media coverage - when was the last PPB to get so much attention? It’s criticised above as both nice (’reminds me of why I supported Cameron’) and nasty - quite hard to be both.
To respond to Welsh Goat: the problem about PPBs is that people think they’re dull and switch off. We’ve had numerous policy-focused PPBs which have sunk without trace. Obviously a sketch of this kind is no substitute for policies, but at present Labour is actually the only major party with a coherent set of policies, whether one likes them or not. Nobody has any real idea what Tory or LibDem policies will be a year from now. For instance, I gather (also in today’s Telegraph) that Tory policy on nuclear power may change from nagging us to adopt it faster to opposing it altogether, or then again it may not. But PPBs aren’t, I’m afraid, the place to explain policies in any detail. What *is* the place is one of the conundrums of modern politics, frankly - I find there’s a market for lengthy emails to 6% of the homes in my constituency, but what about the other 94%?
This ppb will go down as one of the worst in history. That a government a year into its third term does not have the confidence to campaign on its record or have anything positive to say about the challenges of local government, reviving local democracy or anything else for that matter is sympomatic of a party and a government which is literally ‘off its head’. Those who put this together probably think that they were being terribly clever and post-modern when in fact they are being naive and stupid and I am suprised elected politicians were so stupid as to let it be broadcast. Whether you are Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem or whatever there is no place in modern politics for this type of trivial pap which further undermines trust and respect for politics and a time when we should all be looking for ways to restore trust and respect. A monumental misjudgement.
Unfortunately Welsh Goat you cant nail people infront of their TV sets while politicians preach to them. If you don’t entertain in the first five to ten seconds the audience will switch off. This PPB’s one and only job was to put in the audiences mind that Dave was a flip-flopper, a leader without substance. And that could only work-as Mike says-if that tapped into a self evident truth. But If it does it could seriously undermine Cameron’s PR stunts over the next few years
Why Ann Treneman thought it low politics I just cant imagine. She must have had her head in the sand for at least 25 years!
All this broadcast shows is that Labour are rattled. The line ‘He only says things that people want to hear’ won’t have any resonance with the voters who have had to listen to Tony Blair’s bullsh*t for the last 9 years.
I believe the PPB was too subtle to have much effect on the average voter. For a government to produce that for a local election is nothing short of desperate.
For all you by election fans, I’ve been leafletting all week for the South Derbyshire ward of Swadlincote, A Labour heartland with only a majority of 277. I will let you know the result as soon as it happens.
128.”the other parties could take a quieter approach, unless of course it is closer than I would have thought or expected. Nah”
IMO if it’s close, they should even more quitier not to throw everythig away.
if you’re far out, you could try something bold because you’ve nothing to lose, while if it’s close you’ve to reflect better on what you’re doing.
Anyway, some candidates’ agents should be fired after that byelection!
133 - “This ppb will go down as one of the worst in history… A monumental misjudgement.”
Oh for goodness sake, don’t be so silly. AHM’s response is the right one from the Tory view point - take it on the chin and dismiss it as a bit lightweight and not the sort of thing to convince people. But to call it one of the worst in history and a monumental misjudgement is just ridiculous.
I think that a lot of people here forget what a rarefied political bubble those of us that post here live in. I haven’t seen the ppb, I asked my wife what she thought, and she hadn’t got a clue what I was talking about. In a London (financial) office of 25 no-one has seen it or is talking about it. I suspect that if it resonates a bit, then it will be used again and again such that it does get out into the wider conciousness. If it doesn’t it will sink without trace and 90% of the voting population will have never been aware of it. Very much wait and see in my opinion.
The key role of PPBs is not winning converts but in securing your own core base - starting with your activists.
Remember one consequence of Cameron has been renewed vigour on the ground in some areas amongst Tory activists which could have added to the demoralisation of Labour workers who have watched as membership has slumped and they have had to cope with all the cr*p over Iraq etc.
My view is this PPB will restore some faith amongst these people which might help them enthuse reluctant supporters.
So there will be a benefit to Labour.
The Tories should take heart as well because the PPB shows up Labour worries. Nobody kicks a dead dog.
The Lib Dems shopuld also welcome it because it seeks to expose where “Dave” is moving onto their territory.
Only thing is..I did not find it funny and, as a cyclist, I loathe the way they were taking the p*ss out of my chosen form of transportation.
139. it’s for local elections….their turnout is usually pretty low, if just 10% of people watch it, it’s a big proportion of the potential vote.
139 - Ah someone else who has a life and did not see the ppb LOL . Speaking personally , from what I have heard it is a bit of harmless fun but I prefer a ppb with a positive message . It seems too many are publicising their opponents too much at the moment .
Well, having slept on it, I’ll have a second bite at the cherry.
I think Nick Palmer makes a good point - how do politicians sell their policy product to people who aren’t interested in it? Not because they want a different set of policies, but because they only find politics relevant, if at all, during General Election campaigns.
I agree with the earlier point that, since Kinnock and Kerry were successfully attacked as “flip floppers” who weren’t up to the job they were seeking, it’s got to be at least worth a go from Labour’s point of view to try the same line of attack on Cameron.
One other point that I don’t think has yet been made: the original Culture Club song topped the charts in the autumn of 1983 - could this be subliminal way of reminding voters (of a certain age, albeit) of what life was like in the high summer of Thatcherism? If so, what is the effect of such a reminder?
25, 31:
You can walk my path
You can wear my shoes
Let her talk like me
And be an angel too
But maybe
You ain’t never gonna feel this way
You ain’t never gonna know me
But I know you…
Teach you now that
Things can only get better
Can only get, can only get
They get on from here
You know, I know that
Things can only get better
I sometimes lose myself in me
I lose track of time
And I can’t see the world’s formed trees
You set them alight, burning the bridges as you go
I’m too weak to fight you
I got my personal health to deal with
And you say
Walk my path
Wear my shoes
Talk like me
I’ll be an angel and
Things can only get better
Can only get better
Now I’ve found you
(That means me)
(Will you teach me now)
Things can only get better
Can only get better
Now I’ve found you
And you and you…
You… show me prejudice and greed
You show me how
I must learn to deal with this disease
I look at things now
In a different light than I did before
I found the cause
And I think that you could be my cure
And you say
Walk your path
Wear your shoes
Talk like that
I’ll be an angel too
Things can only get, can only get
Things can only get, can only get
Things can only get, can only get
Things can only get, can only get…
James wakefield……and why not Martin Parr and Daniel Meadows?
110. I love it.
“I’m a liberal Conservative- I’ve just become the leader of the wrong party… I hope, over the next weeks, months and years, that many people will join the Liberal Democrats instead of us: to build a modern Conservative Party people should probably join new Labour.”
Priceless.
Not convinced this PPB will work for Nu Lab. As alluded by others here research shows people are getting increasingly annoyed with negative campaigning, and targetting a man who’s not in government and has only been in his job for a few months acts only to promote him. Being satirised is often the mark that a politician has “made it”; Blair’s success is just as evident in the forever-running St. Albion Parish News as it is in any serious news publication.
Personally I suspect this chameleon gag has Brown’s fingerprints all over it. I have no idea why people think The Dour One is less prone to shallow spin than Blair - it wasn’t Blair who had bully-boys Whelan and Balls backing him up for years. Brown wants a piece of Dave (so to speak) and I suspect this PPB is it. After all, Blair is (we believe) not standing again, so why would he be bothered about Cameron?
“it wasn’t Blair who had bully-boys Whelan and Balls backing him up for years.”
well, there were Mandelson and Campbell
Reading through the comments, it seems to be that the balance of opinion is that this was a fun PPB and that it worked.
Not sure why Alastair is so bad tempered today- must have ben reading the polling reports from Moray…
149 made me laugh. I have also just read through the thread and drawn the complete opposite conclusion, that most post3ers here feel that the PBC was a mistake for Labour.
My view is that it’s probably as helpful to Cameron as dangerous; the lasting memory of the cartoon is that of change - the one message we are desperate to get across to the elctorate above all others is that we *are* changing.
148. Aye, but who would you rather face in an altercation - Mandy or Whelan?
151. Julian, it was alleged that Mandelson’s boyfriend once sent pictures of Whelan to a “wizard” asking him to make some spells to stop him harming Mandy!
(I hope the tabs made that up!)
This ad, as an ad, has a serious fault as did the ‘Demon Eyes’ poster, and for the same reason. The words got in the way of the message.
On the ‘Eyes’ everyone heard New Labour (they had grown up that is) and not ‘Danger’.
With this ad many people will hear Change and not ‘flip flop’. In the ‘Eyes’ poster ‘New’ was mentioned only twice, in this ad ‘ Change’ is mentioned so often that it seems to be the core message and that is just what Dave wants. (With this series of ads Nulab are using up the ‘flip flop’ ammunition too, so if it doesn’t work they have to start all over again.)
The other weaknesses of this ad is the ‘Oh sweet’ factor from at least some of the audience. It is cute and so is Dave.
But the worst error is the voice over line that says Dave had a plan. ‘And the plan worked a treat’ says the B’stard-light voice.
Great, so Dave’s plan works and to be attacked by B’stard-light is quite helpful. It means B’stard really is Nulab, who have adopted him and all his works.
I douibt this is effective even in energising the Nulab base. For other parts of the electorate it is a confused message and the annimation is likely to be the cult object not the message.
Is this the best that Miracle Media and Silverfish can do for political punch? Looks as if it is back to toothpaste ads, then.
The Guardian has a good article on political advertising today.
149 - I’m pretty sure Alastair has no idea what the canvasses are like in Moray. Not that many people have and they’ve only been told in confidence.
I don’t think the local papers are going to make great reading for your boys in the next couple of days BTW. More faux outrage from the Northern Scot on the way.
154. Surely Jack W knows, doesn’t he? he knows everything.
152, that’s hilarious. Where did you read that?
156. Sean:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/03/26/nwhe26.xml
152 - Presumably the Wizard took one look at Whelan’s picture and thought he’d been punished enough.
I have to say, as I haven’t seen the broadcast, I have nothing to say about the broadcast
Hitler was a believer in astrology and suchlike as well…
160 - And Nancy Reagan too. Are, by chance, any or indeed all of them somehow related?
155 Boswell. You are my dear Madam, both too kind and most perceptive in equal measure.
……………………………..
BTW Boswell …. face up Mi Lady, are you Nellie or Aveline Boswell ??
I think the broadcast smacks of desperation - The Tories tried the fairly similar “Demon Eyes” about Blair in 1996 though that failed to have much impact the following year. I doubt this will have much impact.
An office colleague with almost no interest in politics raised the PPB herself this morning without any prompting. Her comment in her words: “Did anybody see the Labour broadcast last night. I thought it was appalling. They talked to me like a five year old. I wanted to know what Labour was going to do for me and all we got was this rubbish”.
I always felt the Demon Eyes poster would have worked better if they’d added horns to Blair, and had 666 tattooed on his forehead.
Whilst we are on unscientific samples, of ten people I have asked today - number who watched: zero.
164 - So the Professor has had an astonishing change of view?
167. and a change of sex too!
[154] Hmm, are all the Conservatives out of sorts today?
I agree it really is faux outrage from the NS, but you have to take the rough with the smooth in politics. In any event, our folk are making quite cheerful noises, so we shall see what happens soon enough, I guess.
FWIW I think Nick Palmer is pretty on the button- lets face it PPBs are a notorious switch off, so any message has to be as frankly trivial as this PPB. Interesting that Marcus takes a different message from precisely the same data, but of those messages that express an oppinion above I count 19 negative and 34 positive- so perhaps Marcus expresses his oppinion as fact- I habit that I have noticed before.
165 Sean. You do subtle so well !
Is this Davis being slapped down?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=U5MGTKBFICZCZQFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2006/04/19/utory.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/04/19/ixportaltop.html
Well I guess that Cameron and the Tories must be delighted,obviously if New Labour weren’t feeling the heat why bother with a PPB like this that fucuses on their opponents leader.As Mike says why kick a dead horse?
Following the current sleaze, I would imagine that some people may be asking, so this is how some of our taxes will be spent in the future.
Finally, it seems that the New Labour planning may have slipped up as in the same week as this PBB we have two Jags billed to make a key environment speech,how funny is that?
Maybe we’ll get Jack out of one of his Jags & onto a bicycle.
Anyone watching a Party Political broadcast to see “what Labour are going to do for me” are always going to be disappointed!
169 - Not out of sorts - just pointing out a fact. There aren’t really any accurate polling reports coming out of Moray and I suspect few people have any real idea about the outcome.
I’m not complianing about the coverage the NS has given I’m just saying that come polling day we’re not the only one’s who it’ll be having a go at. I thought the editors description of the LD’s as being like ’snake oil salesmen’ showed exactly whose agenda she’s trying to push.
172 john. I’m an Audi man actually. But we do have a few bikes that Mrs Jack W and I use in the better weather to visit the odd local liquid refreshment purveyors. Is Summer coming soon …
“In any event, our folk are making quite cheerful noises, so we shall see what happens soon enough, I guess.”
acutally your folk always make cheerful noises.
it’s still to be seen if they’re noises like the ones in Dunfermline or like the ones in Livingston.
I see the related website to the PPB plays the Cameron-is-a-toff card with the odd ‘spiffing’ and ‘hurrah’. Wonder who thought that up – the old class-warefare brigade or the new Labour public-school faction trying to work off a bit of angst and self-loathing.
Anyway, I think Dave (the politician that is, not the animated reptile) will be delighted with the broadcast: a wonder of evolution that cleverly adjusts to a changed environment. What better metaphor could there be for a Tory party reforming itself to address the challenges of the 21st Century?
Cicero at 171. Did the article mention Davis?
John. Though Mike made a good point about kicking a dead horse even Hague and Howard got the treatment. I don’t think featuring the leader of the opposition in an attack ad should be taken as an indication of fear!
174 Max. Are you going to offer some juicy odds on a Tory win in Moray ??
I’m surprised by the general panning of this line of attack.
Unlike most Labour attacks it has the overwhelming merit of being true.
I think the idea of planting the seed that Cameron is a flip-flopper this early in his leadership is a sensible one. remember he has described himself as:
‘Conservative to the core’
‘The heir to Blair’
‘liberal Conservative’
and is now using the slogen ‘vote blue, go green’
You cannot evade the fact that this is a basic inconsistency. I think this line of attack does have a simple subconscious resonance with the public, especially after 10 years of Blair. People are wary of this kind of ‘trust me I’m a decent sort of guy’ politics, that in part explains why the Tories aren’t where they should be in the polls in a situation like this - 10% ahead!
Ad certainly got noticed. A staggering amount of secondary coverage.
IMO “Cameron = Chameleon” will be the legacy of this ad. It rolls of the tongue nicely. The words look similar. Isn’t there a known effect where the brain confuses words that begin and end with the same letters.
Overall it’s rather sad, but very clever.
Maybe some short term damage to Labour but a malignant seed has definitely been sown at an early stage.
In a totally different league to Demon Eyes.
To answer Nick Palmer if no one watches PPB why bother to make them? I find it really interesting to see that it is now claimed that it was made for free. If this the quality of the work carried out by the characters responsible then I can’t see them making much money in the future.It really was pathetic and an insult to people’s intelligence. I thought that the comment from Mike’s colleaque was very interesting. There is a market out there for politicians who treat voters as mature adults.
179 - What odds!! Apparently a local bookie was offering some but that’s it. Still annoys me that I couldn’t put a bet on DCT going Tory in 2005. I think the SNP will hold the seat but I do think turnout will be poor (there will be three elections in three years in Moray come 2007!) which could make it interesting. I’m not going to make any prediction though becasuse it’s the kind of thing that comes back to haunt you!!
181 Juan The ‘Demon Eyes’ ad probably wopuld now have more resonance now than it did nine years ago.
Perhaps that is what will happen to this, have resonance after another 10 years of Tory government.
180 - Charges of ‘basic inconsistency’ from a member of the Liberal Democrats always amuse me no end…
Most of the reviews I read in the press this morning seem to disagree with you Bullseye; and as I said last evening, I think the attack was too subtle to have any real effect, well produced as it may have been.
I trust your local campaign in Lambeth is going well?
165. I thought the demon eyes poster was just ahead of its time. In 2005 it would have been perfect.
You want to get out more Welsh goat. That it cost nothing was only because art directors writers and a facilities company were prepared to give their time for nothing. The people who worked on it will all be top people in the advertising and production business. I doubt any of them will have needed to do it for their showreel.
It was actually quite gentle. The only knee in the groin was the “Call me Dave!”. Incidentally is that true?
183. Max - surely a chunk of the Labour vote is going to head toward the SNP, isn’t it? (a la Dumfries & Galloway) That alone will make it very hard for the Conservatives to win.
183 Max. You’re right. I understand an Elgin bookmaker offered the SNP @ 3/1 on, and had his hand snapped off. The book shut after a day !!
…………………………………
BTW someone must stop Eric “I ate all the pies” Pickles sitting next to Cameroon at PMQs …… especially if DC runs on Third World issues.
187. Giving their time for nothing..what a bunch of ‘naive idiots’ (to use my favourite Sinn Fein phrase) they must be…or are they after some honours, too?
The basic point with this stuff is that Labour are targeting their core vote, not swing voters. It’s the same with their moronic crime campaign in London.
The only people that are going to give a toss what colour Cameron likes his politics are those for whom left and right wing, red and blue are meaningful terms of pride or abuse. For the Labour vote, that’s the comrades, brothers and sisters to whom Blair is something akin to a form of testicular cancer crippling the socialist manhood of their once proud, but utterly unelectable and useless party.
Similarly on the crime campaign the idea is to motivate the anti-war, hate-Blair stay at home former Labour vote to come out and stave off the pending ‘disaster’ of ’softy’ liberals taking over their council seats.
It’s in that respect of sign of desperation.
Frankly with the cartoon chameleon, what they’ve done is created a rather likeable and fun character and then associated it with their political opponent. Advertising geniuses they are not.
“a rather likeable and fun character” - I agree, but that is not necessarily a good thing for Cameron.
Michael Foot - likeable and fun. Charles Kennedy - likeable and fun.
As the Americans say “Nice guys finish last.”
188 - Possibly. Although the Labour vote is fairly resilient in and around Elgin. They aren’t doing very much though but are the only party with a local candidate that may help. Although as I said above I don’t expect a Tory win under any circumstances. I just don’t think we’ll do as badly as some people think.
On that subject the SNP are having another rant claiming that Jack McConnell shouldn’t go to Moray because it will help the ‘anti-Scottish’ Tories.
189. Jack, PMQs:
Gordon seemed not to have slept for at least a week and his hair were a mess.
I really can’t stand Meg Hillier
As an anecdotal aside - I was just looking at friends blog who has the following to say about the PPB: (Apologies for length). I thought it was actually quite accurate, if a bit depressing.
[178] no the article did not mention Davis, which is why I asked, but the quotes were ones that were attributed to him last week- so I wondered- any one else it could be?
194 Andrea. PMQs … Deadly dull today. A snore draw all round and TB looked liked he couldn’t be arsed all through the half hour.
I thought TB stuttered a lot at PMQs today, something that I haven’t really seen him do very often.
Lennon. Just sounds like some football widow whining about always having football on the box…..if he’s not interested why bother to write such a tome?
……. For those interested in politics it’s about competition and gaining an advantage over the opponent. For those not interested-99% of the population-it’s for politicians to get their messages accross in a very crowded market place where no-one really wants to listen. That’s why when you have their attention you have to be instantly memorable and punchy. Very difficult
193 - It’s quite interesting how both the SNP and the Tories have started to copy LibDem by-election tactics. The SNP’s rant read:
“Obviously Jack McConnell would like the Tories to win this seat. It is a two horse race between the SNP and the Tories.
“That is the only impact a vote for Labour and the Liberals can have in this constituency. Only the SNP can keep the Tories out in Moray.”
which sounds suspiciously close to virtually everything by-election-ish to come out of Cowley Street in the past few years. Also some of the other flyers seem to have been borrowed from previous Lib Dem campaign tactics.
This is probably more of an anecdotal than statistical observation - I’m assuming it would be a logical thing to do though.
Is it possible that Tony Blair might not be too well? He looked pretty poorly yesterday.
200 - I don’t think there is any doubt that, that is indeed the case. A hard message to sell though when the opposition is so splintered.
In all honesty I don’t think Jack McConnell could give a f**k who wins!
00 - When they wheel out the bar charts is the time to get worried!
I note Mr Palmer on usual form in PMQs.
He could have asked a question on behalf of his constituents. I thought that’s what all MPs were supposed to do: act on behalf of those they represent. And I thought PMQ was a rare opportunity for MPs to scrutinise the Prime Minister.
But Broxtowe residents got no representation from Mr Palmer. None at all. He wasn’t interested in either scrutinising the PM or asking him to help his residents.
He asked a sychohantic question on carbon emmissions that had no purpose other than to congratulate the Labour party and Tony Blair on their success.
Oh how Blair and the ever-loyal Mr Palmer delighted in the glow of their own smug self-satistaction. What glory they bathed in to kick off Prime Minister Questions.
The cunning plan looked like Baldrick and Blackadder all over again as Mr Palmer drooled in the presence of his great leader.
169 - Jimmy, today is Sainsburys day and I’ve just spent all morning pushing a trolley round the bl**dy supermarket for she who must be obeyed, while at the same time having everything I wanted denied me because ‘I can’t have that on my diet!’ - so if I am out of sorts this afternoon it’s more to do with that than any inside information I don’t have from Moray, though I suspect no news from there would be good news after all the recent poor publicity. Grrrr!!
I’ve got to find a way of ridding myself of this thankless task!
200 Stephen B. It may be that the SNP, as Labour in Dunfermline, are trying to deflect attention from the real threat - the Lib Dems. However I’m of the view that the SNP has nothing to worry about from any party and that it’s historic Moray anti Tory tactics coming into play.
I also agree with Max that, unless some issues suddenly erupts and motivates, the turnout in Moray will be dismal !
99 - I read it as a plea for politicians to stop being tribal and patrician, to be constructive and not negative, to be straightforward and open and not indulge in yah-boo sucks politics. Something that Dave talked about to some people, and then stopped doing as soon as he thought those same people had stopped listening. I think it shows the underlying mood from non-political types for that most elusive of things - ‘an honest politician’.
206. Jack, I think the “vote SNP to keep the tories out” is more convincing than “vote SNP to keep the LD out”, that’s why they used it IMO.
208 Andrea. I agree. But if you recall in the last days of the Dunfermline by-election Labour went all out to portray the SNP as the challengers.
209. yes, I know. They were pretty desperate: they even asked voters to vote Labour in honour of Rachel Squire.
IMO the best tactic is the one used in Livingston: portray SNP as the challenger one day and then portray Libdems as the challenger the next day.
It confuses voters who are just searching the best party to kick Labour in the butt!
I seem to detect a hint of criticism from printz.
But MPs are expected by most constituents to take an interest in national politics, rather than just ask the PM to (say) save a local bus shelter. We do have one local issue (the tram) that the PM can affect, but I asked that one last time.
I have lots of constituents who voted for me because they thought I was concerned about climate change, and lots more who didn’t because they thought I wasn’t concerned enough, and both groups want me to press the issue fom time to time. The opportunity to point out that the Tories haven’t backed their green words with acceptance of the CCL was a bonus.
200 -Max - sorry if this has been asked before but do you know if the SNP are playing this campaign from the left, the right or just independence? I know that the left within the party predominates but unsure how that would play in Moray.
This comment, posted above:
“… there’s something so irritatingly smug about Labour’s ‘Dave the Chameleon’ theme”
Best sums up the Labour PPB last night IMO.
I am not sure negative campaigning works in this case (or in any) - it makes you look nasty and your opponents much more pleasant and dare I say victimised.
140. Cycling to work is my preferred option too, although that’s at least as much to do with me being a tight Yorkshireman than weighty moral concerns. Either way, I’m very sorry that it so greatly offends the Labour Party.
Mr Palmer, you seem to be saying you used PMQs to promote yourself and Labour policies. That was my very point.
You could have used the opportunity not to just pat yourself on the back, but to actually ask a meaningful question. I guess you are free to ask sychophantic questions if you want, but I fail to see how you can be pleased about it.
If you are genuinely interested in saving the environment perhaps you could have been a little more balanced and pointed out that Labour is failing to meet the emissions targets it set. If you have passion, why not show that passion?
180: Bullseye:
‘Conservative to the core’
‘The heir to Blair’
Where’s the inconsistency in that?
I agree ‘Liberal Conservative’ and (call me Tony) Blair don’t go….
As to the PPB…cute, funny, probably irrelevant. Its not going to scare the core vote to the polls (Hague/Maggie)…its not going to give anyone flirting with the BNP to vote Labour…..the lack of any central message about what Labour’s FOR - going to Mikes point earlier about a Labour post-power implosion….illustrate the problems building up for Nu-Lab.
212 - It’s all very localised as you would expect so you can’t really draw left-right destinctions. Saving schools and hospitals that sort of thing but as Jack hints above there is no big issue to motivate people. I don’t think turnout will be as bad as Cathcart but maybe not much better. At some point electoral fatigue has to kick in when, as I said above, you have so many elections in such a short period.
As I say I don’t know the whole picture and there are bits and pieces I wouldn’t mention on a public forum.
Meanwhile still in Scotland :
Alas poor Doric I knew him well, Mr Presiding Officer !
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4920268.stm
Nick Robinson seems impressed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/
215 Printz - If Nick Palmer was actually interested in climate change he would know the CCL is a tax on energy use and not carbon emissions. The reason DC opposes the CCL is because it doesn’t achieve its stated objective.
NP is making the most of his remaining time in the House of Commons and his massive ego trip will have to be indulged.
I’ve been on the Conservative website but can’t find the Dave the Chameleon dolls - after their broadcast last night I thought they’d have the merchandise ready.
220. Alternatively, knowing his time in the Commons may be short, this brown-nosing may be aimed at securing some kind of soft appointment once he is kicked out…or perhaps an honour….
211 - Nick, As usual Printz Charming (I’m sure) goes spluttering off to Planet Zog in hilarious invective, but promise your legion of fans here that you didn’t have a the quietest of words with the whips before posing that stunner of a, er, question
O/T I see that Sky Italia is reporting that the Italian Court of Castration (sorry, Cassation
) has confirmed Sivio’s defeat and the victory of the centre-left.
Kingbongo, I agree.
What we need is to see carbon emissions to come down and that will not happen unless this government makes substantial investment in alternative energy and that is not happening. Putting pressure on USA would also be a good move.
This is one of the most important issues facing the planet. We have the highest levels of CO2 in the atmosphere since before the birth of mankind and with the speed of increase our very survival is under threat. Mr Palmer has a chance to raise the matter in PMQs and all he can say if what a fine job they are already doing. Sorry Mr Palmer, but based on that, I don’t believe you do care.
John O, I am glad you find me hilarious.
Humour is important and if I can bring a smile to PB.com I am happy. Since Vote 2005, I am one of Mr Palmer’s greatest followers (although not yet a stalker!). Don’t worry I have no plans to ever go to Broxtowe.
However, I seem to remember giving Mr Palmer’s Lib Dem opponent a harder time by asking if he intended to run as a “paper candidate” only as he had no chance of winning anyway.
But when the candidate got a little upset by the suggestion, to cheer him up I found a convolutely way of calculating he could win the election that involved projecting swings from Mickey Mouse figures on an anti-war site and movements at the previous election combined with national opinion polls and then suggested he produce a bar chart for his leaflets. I hope Mr Palmer was not too worried!
Yes, I promise, no whip was consulted, or informed. But, yes, it was a question partly intended to make a partisan point - PMQ tends to be, especially Q1.
Kingobongo misses the point of the CCL, though. It’s a levy on consumption of gas, coal and electricity by non-domestic users, and the reason those energy sources are singled out is their emissions. It’s estimated that the reduction in CO2 emissions that has resulted is currently over 14 million tonnes per year. What is Mr Cameron’s proposed alternative if it’s to be abolished?
Boswell: like printz, you can’t argue a case without bashing the person you’re talking to, can you? It’s not a sign of intellectual confidence.
221. Can he afford an honour? (JOKE)
On a serious note Nick always used to entitle his election literature “positive politics” I assume he will want to dsitance himself from either his own leaflets or last night 100% negative Labour broadcast?
Which leaflet is that, cynic?
Mr Palmer wrote:
Boswell: like printz, you can’t argue a case without bashing the person you’re talking to, can you? It’s not a sign of intellectual confidence.
Reply:
Mr Palmer, after that nasty snarling party political broadcast last night, it seems the whole Labour Party doesn’t have a “sign of intellectual confidence.”
I reserve the right to bash any MP that helped take this country to war on a pack of lies. And I will bash Labour MPs that did not demand that anyone in government take responsibility and resign after learning that dossiers were manipulated and fabricated.
A student would be sacked for plagiarising work from another student, but not Alistair Campbell or Blair for fabricating a dossier by lifting a student thesis to make a case for war. What principles do you have to support that?
Your loyalty to Blair as seen in PMQ is touching. Did you agree to war on Iraq because Blair asked you to?
OR if Blair had been against the war would you have stood up and said, no I disagree, let’s bomb Iraqis? Yes or No?
223. John, it’s not official yet. Cassazione said the official figures will be out around 6 PM (Italian time)
Havent seen any for a long time but when we lived in Broxtowe all the Nick Palmer leaflets used to be headed “Positive Politics with Nick Palmer”.
You cant argue that this PPB fits with positive politics so do you
a. dissown the PPB or b. quietly drop the Positive Politcs tag?
Did you used to live in Broxtowe too cynic? Whereabouts?
“All residents have had a copy of my newsletter, called Positive Politics”, [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2004/09/02/messageboard_2004_09_tram_webchat_transcript_feature.shtml]NickPalmer MP[/url]
Interesting, on ConservativeHome the comments about the PBC from Tory activists are overwhelmingly upbeat, they think like me that this is good for Dave and has backfired on Labour rather badly.
You have to admire the arrogance of Anthony Charles Lynton Blair allowing such hypocrisy.
cynic, no party has had completely positive politics as long as I’ve been involved, and that’s 40 years now. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect it, and I think the PPB was a mild example of personal criticism. I’ve criticised people and especially parties myself too - haven’t we all?
However, there needs to be a space for constructive politics. My local Positive Politics newsletters have always been free of attacks on anyone, and I’m keeping them that way.
printz: I don’t think you should bash anyone here personally: Mike has repeatedly asked us not to as it drags the site down. I generally don’t go into the pros and con of policies here anyway, but definitely not in reply to your sort of posts, so no comment on your questionnaire.
Kingobongo misses the point of the CCL, though
No I haven’t - how on earth do you make that stupendous leap. I know it’s hard for NuLab MPS to engage their brain as something interesting and useful might accidentally pop out and get them into trouble but how dare you proclaim I don’t have the basic intelligence required to read the legislation.
The CCL is gesture politics at its worst and all the remissions, rebates and get-out clauses are proof of that. You asked a silly non-question about something you clearly know very little about.
Re: 233 - To be honest, Marcus, I didn’t really expect Conservative activists to go on to Conservativehome.com and praise a Labour PPB to the skies with comments like “they’re better than us, we might as well give up” etc, etc.
To be honest, far from making Labour look desperate, the huffing and puffing of some Tory activists suggests a degree of desperation as well. I don’t expect them to like it but we all know negative campaigning happens and attacking Cameron is, regrettably, fair game. “Politics is a rough old trade” is, I believe, what John Major in the early hours of May 2nd 1997.
It’s just a broadcast - it will no more change the sentiment of the nation than John Cleese’s brilliant PPB for the Allaince amde everyone think PR was a good idea. It’s best to ignore it and move on - and I STILL haven’t seen it
225. Nick Palmer - you misunderstand; I had no particular case to argue, I was just intent on bashing you.
Nick, I understand if you don’t want to answer a simple yes or no question as it might expose you to criticism. But when so many people have died in Iraq, is it too much to ask for an honest answer to an honest question?
We have established from you that that PMQs isn’t actually about getting serious answers to serious questions from the Prime Minister. We do live in a democracy, so when will our elected representatives ever answer questions?
They have the best pension schemes in Britain, paid by us, but they won’t answer straight questions with straight answers.
Mr Palmer, if I sent you a cheque for a thousand pounds would you answer a question? I could always increase my mortgage if you need more. The children might have to miss out on a holiday, but they will understand.
Meanwhile, I’ll send a thousand to your offices as a deposit. Please let me know if you would you prefer me to make the cheque payable to ‘Nick Palmer’ or to the ‘Labour Party?’
Nick, didn’t you cringe when you saw the PPB have a go at Cameron for calling himself Dave?
I personally think the Cameron/Chameleon advert is fairly neutral. I didn’t think it was particularly good or bad, nasty or nice etc. I suspect the reality is that PPB’s are watched by very few people and don’t really have much impact on those who do watch them.
The only bit I don’t get is why Libs and Labs get so bothered about DC being called ‘Dave’. Presumably you will all be refering to ‘Tony’, ‘Ming’ and ‘Nick’ by there full names in future.
OTOH I always find it strange that Patricia Hewitt is never referred to a Pat, Trish etc. Every other Patricia I know is.
238 Boswell. Well you’ll have to bash a little better than that Nellie !
“OTOH I always find it strange that Patricia Hewitt is never referred to a Pat, Trish etc. Every other Patricia I know is. ”
I like to call her Patty (Nanny Patty), does it count?!
It would appear that this PPB has had the unexpected effect of making everyone very angry at Nick Palmer MP (well Labour at least). While I don’t know if the public will like this type of negative campaigning, its clearly not too hot with political geeks! Perhaps its because there is no substance for us to get our teeth into.
The one not-too political person who I have talked to it about said he thought it was clever and funny, and made a point, but was a little too negative on the whole.
244 - I haven’t spoken to any non-political friends who actually watched it. I’m sure that will be equally true of PPB’s by all the other parties.
I can’t even recall the last really effective PPB.
It’s hardly new or wrong to use a PPB to attack the opposition. Why are people so surprised? I can’t see how else Labour could have attacked the Tories nationally. What substantial policy to they actually have?
Could the ‘David - call me Dave’ bit be a sly dig by His Dournesses supporters at ‘Anthony - call me Tony’ - or is this all part of the long plan for the next GE?
244. Poor Nick! Leave him alone, if he is happy with the hypocrcy of campaigning under the banner “positive politics” while supporting, such a negaive then he is entitled to that opinion!
If I were advising the Tories on how to counter it I would suggest they come out with a 100% positive PEB that perhaps welcomes some of the improvements Labour have made and goes on to say where they intend to go further. Leave the knocking to everyone else, rise above it and prove that Dave really wants to get away from the yaa boo.The PEB may have nuetral effect in a world where all the parties are being negative but could have a negative effect on Labour if everyone else comes out with positive messages as Dave seem to have done this morning
247. uhm, now we’ve “David, call me Dave” against “Anthony, call me Tony” as leaders and “James, call me Gordon” versus “Gideon, call me George” as Chancellor/Shadow Chancellor
As someone who’s known Nick Palmer for over 10 years and who originally thought of his strap line Positive Politics I think Princz is a little too personal at slagging off him personally and laying all the Labour Party woes at Nick’s feet.
Why I personally like Nick and do believe he’s genuine in his positive politics approach is that we have disagreed on many topics over the years most notably the Iraq war and education policy yet unlike ’some’ he doesn’t rise to personal abuse and allows sensible debate even when he doesn’t agree with you.
Interestingly I also hate Dave the Chameleon - like Crazy Frog he’s irritating but slightly appealing and the same spinners in the Tory party may well turn him to their own advantage rather than ours in the Labour Party!
248. Nick is obviously not in charge of the whole party PEB. And he’s entitled to run his positive campaign in Broxtowe. The PEB is not his fault.
or maybe should we blame the whole Conservative Party for some local tories campaigns in some constituencies (like Medway leafets)? Obviously no. so why are you having a go at Nick?!
238: Boswell - lol!
239: printz: the thing is that I’m not your elected representative - if I were, I’d answer anything you asked, within reason. As it is, I’m afraid I don’t owe you an answer on anything, and I certainly don’t want any money.
251. I think Nick has been attracting a good deal of flak for some time, not because of the PEB but because he appears to be classic party apparatchik without a trace of independence of thought. The complacent and patronising tone that characterises many of his posts doesn’t help, either.
I only saw the PPB via the link further up, but I did hear the first part of it on the radio yesterday, which may have given a biased impression, but then may also have borne some resemblance to how those members of the public who did see it - half paying attention for the first 30 seconds or so. There seemed to be a number of subliminal messages they were trying to push: he’s a posh boy and links with the Major/Lamont years as well as the more obvious things already mentioned.
Frankly, I don’t think it will have much impact; PPBs don’t any more (if they ever did). It certainly won’t do Labour any favours and negative campaigning only really works in a two party system - I’m sure that persistant negative campaigning between the Labour and Tory parties has a lot to do with the decline in the duopoly. Whether it damages Cameron will depend on whether (a) the public believe the ‘charges’ and (b) whether they think they matter.
By the way, it was mentioned at [42] that that John Major was the only Tory leader who used his original name, but didn’t he change his surname from Major-Ball?
Italian Election Update (for those who have betted on it)
Court of Cassation (I don’t know if it’s transalted in this way in English…anyway, Corte di Cassazione) confirmed centre-left win.
At the House of Deputies the CL lead is 24.755 votes.
So not many changes compared to the result announced on the election (long) night
251 Andrea. It must be that time of the month for some Tories and poor old Printz - The Meanoldpaws ….meooooooowwwwwwwwwww.
256. Jack, check your email box.
[205] Sainsburys would be enough to put most people out of sorts, though I seem to recall a small but well stocked Waitrose in Beaconsfield- would that have not been less stressful?
Jack : fit aboot the tairnoot? Gin I wiz in Murray, aa the pother wid hae weariet me nae doot, bit aa bidy quid hae gang doon forbye the academy and wid hae thocht it braw to hae got it aw o’er.
256. Oh, Jack, did you see that Maureen Watt took the oath in Doric?
didn’t he change his surname from Major-Ball?
No,his brother added that bit to the name for family reasons.
Nick Palmer - as you didn’t explain in what way I was wrong about the climate change levy I take it you’ve accepted you didn’t know what you were talking about at PMQs - you shouldn’t be embarrassed about it, we all make fools of ourselves when trying to impress the boss.
260. Nice, very nice….
I guess that PPB nowadays are neutral at best- kind of acting as background noise whilst doing soemthing else.
Would like to know though who can think of PPB’s that actually mattered? My memory dates to 1992 when the late John Schlesinger directed a superb promo for John Major revisiting his routes, pitted against the Labout home goal of Jennifer’s ear.
This was also a time when wider camapigns held some influence. The Tory 1992 campaign, orchestrated brilliantly by the current chancellor of Oxford, also included the tax bombshell posters, and double whammy concept- again set against the cringing Sheffield rally.
Play fair chaps; Nick obviously has to be a lot more considered in what he posts than the rest of us.
I don’t think it’s particularly surprising to find MPs in almost total opinion with their party. I always thought it takes someone with an unusually large degree of agreement with a party to stand for election under it’s banner; we shouldn’t be surprised then to hear them agreeing with the party in public. And nor do I have a problem in my job with presenting the company line, even if my personal opinion is that the company line probably isn’t the one I would have chosen.
It’s more interesting, of course, seeing parties falling out amongst themselves. But unity has long been the rule rather than the exception.
I want to know where I can buy Dave the Chameleon mugs and T-shirts. As a Tory activist I think the whole concept was fantastic for us. Keep emphasising how we’re changing please!
For info, on the ground in NOC Ipswich we are getting a very positive response in areas I didn’t expect compared with the 04 council elections, and I overheard at least one voter telling a Labour councillor he’d never be voting Labour again. Sounded familiar - a bit like us in 95/96
Not one for predictions, but would expect Conservatives to be largest group on Ipswich Borough come May, with overall control next year (assuming there is no meltdown over the next year)
253 - To be fair Nick is a Labour MP. It doesn’t seem unreasonable that he then supports the Labour government.
As a Tory one of the things that has annoyed me in recent years is the lack of loyalty shown by some of the parliamentary party so I don’t see it as something to crticise in other people from other parties.
Andrea
When will Prodi be confirmed as the next PM? Dreamt last night that Prodi was playing in the world snooker championship. Bizarre.
Also, couldn’t agree more about the references to Nanny (or matron) Patty
Whilst it might not be unreasonable that he supports his own Government, Nick should not be surprised that he becomes the target of so much aggressive and personal attack, given the distaste so many of us have for this bilious Government.
Having re-read my comment at 267 I should add that I don’t think it fair to attack him personally for the failings of Tony and his cronies.
I saw it and though it was effective and funny. I’m a little bit taken aback at the Conservative effontry that anyone but themselves has decided to use negative campaigning - this from the party that consistently used negative campaigning for the past twenty years (and was at one point poised to run an advert that portrayed Blair selling his soul to the Devil). Cameron has flipped flopped on most issues - including Iraq - and when you look at the fine print of his announcements you find a lot of spin but little substantial change.
I don’t think it is a case of ‘pot calling the kettle black’. Blair has clearly nailed his principles to the mast on foriegn and domestic policy. Like or loathe his decision to liberate Iraq (and I support it) it was not the ‘easy’ decision and while the Italians, Danish and others have pulled troops out he’s made it clear that they will remain there until the job is done. Constrast this with Cameron who fence-sat on Iraq until he had to vote one way or the other and now tells us he supports the Lib Dem position on Iraq (ie immediate troop withdrawal).
256. PJ, it could be long.
He should wait for the new Parliament to meet (end of April, I think 27th).
Then it depends on if he’ll get the assignment to form the new government from the current President or by the new one.
if it’s the second case, he should wait for the Parliament to vote and elect a new Parliament. So it could be mid May in the end!
263. Very much agree Cookie. Can everyone please stop attacking Nick so personally. He is not personally responnsible for the New Labour agenda, nor, as Andrea says, for the PPB.
He clearly has some degree of guts to post on here, despite this not exactly being a Labour, or Government, friendly zone. The Government does have large numbers of supporters in the Labour backbenches, even though we don’t see them in the news that often.
62 - The labour one with Pete Postlethwaite as an angel was good. For the absolute nadir how about Corin Redgrave in a beige suit emoting from behind a desk for five minutes (WRP - 1979)? At least I think it was beige (like most of the seventies).
Has nobody seen tonight’s tory one yet? Here it isand it’s very different to last night’s (though the animations are just as cute, such as the methane friendly cow!)
It’s the ‘Vote Blue, Go Green’ one….
http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=news.multimedia.page
69. Well the PEB was at least an improvement from the thinly veiled anti-semitism seen at the GE (did the BNP spin doctors help with that, btw?).
More Blairite rubbish at 269. How can you say Blair is principled. Wasn’t he once a member of CND? Didn’t he want sign up to Clause 4 when he joined the party? Didn’t he campaign on it in election after election right up to dumping it to become electable.
David Cameron has recognised that the Conservative party has to change the way it looks at things, whilst remaining loyal to our core principles - freedom of choice, promoting opportunity, smaller state etc.
In focus groups most Tory policies of old work - until you tell people they are from the Tories. Therefore the brand needed some work doing.
The Policy Commissions will produce carefully crafted well thought out policies - which we WANT Labour to steal. It will save time on implementing them when we finally come back in to Government.
64-NOC Ipswich makes me smirk that Tory activists are trying to read into the tea leaves some false sense of hope of a Tory revival. I have heard it all before. Let’s face it it ain’t goin to happen.
Sent a shudder through me though that my nephew aged 18 intends to vote Tory at the next election. I wrote to him that it should normally take years before life fills you with such a sense of reactionary selfishness and blind self interest (or ignorance) to warrant such a move.
260: Kingobongo, yes, I explained in the previous post why you were mistaken, and you responded with something baffling about my ‘daring to question your intelligence’. But the same applies to you as to printz, I’m afraid - if you want to discuss policy with an MP, the Commons convention (which is basically to save too much duplication) is that you need to tackle your own MP.
253: Notts County - well, I’ve been posting here for some years in much the same vein, but the level of abuse, mostly by Tory posters, has got much higher recently to the point that it’s in my opinion a problem for the site.
The basic question is whether people want a space where we can talk across party lines without snarling at each other. I’m a Labour loyalist who thinks the Government is doing a good job, AHM is a Tory loyalist who is extremely keen to get us out, Sean Fear is a traditional Tory with misgivings, ukpaul is an anti-Labour LibDem/Tory floater who thinks the Government is monstrously authoritarian, etc. - these are all legal views and we’re entitled to express them. It’s interesting to have a place to compare notes, but less interesting if it’s full of mad axemen who go bonkers when they hear an opinion they dislike.
272. At the beginning I thought it was a Green ad….especially because the first guy looked a bit like the Green candidate in North Southwark and Bermondsey last year.
Thanks Andrea. Vagaries of the Italian system- but Italy are worth a punt for the world cup at 12’s on betfair. I have put my yet unclaimed winnings on Prodi there- but stand to be very nicely off if they do it.
258 cicero. Excellent !!
259 Andrea. No, I missed the Doric swearing-in, having flagged it up earlier.
Worst party political broadcasts: (Social and Liberal) Democrats circa 1989
“Good evening, and welcome to the Democrat program. Tonight we are going to ask our panel…” cue panel consisting of, say, Alex Carlile, Matthew Taylor and some unknown councillor. They made several like this. Who was the compere, anybody?
Actually, worse than that, Liberal party PPBs with David Morrish and Michael Meadowcroft in 1992.
OK, Tory PEB much more positive, which will make anyone who looks at Labour PEB a bit uneasy at it’s more nagative tone. But I genuinely don’t think anyone watches them.
275 - Yeah we are having a Tory revival in Ipswich, having gone a dreadful 9 seats in 2002 to 18 in 2004, and likely to have 20 seats come May. With our partners the LDs likely to take at least two if not three seats off Labour we will be the largest party by some way. And I don’t see why we can’t aim for overall control next year - ten percent lead in the elections every year for the last three, except the most important one, the General!
I think it is quite an effective way of kiboshing Dave’s ‘green’ credentials- which have been working pretty well up until now. It gives his interest in the environment a very effective context, all just by using colour.
Did any of you think it was a bit homophobic, with the use of Boy George and all?
276.” But the same applies to you as to printz, I’m afraid - if you want to discuss policy with an MP, the Commons convention (which is basically to save too much duplication) is that you need to tackle your own MP. ”
Actually I thought MPs couldn’t take casework about people living in other constituencies (ex solving problems, etc…), not no to talk with them about policies.
Ah and I think it’s a pretty silly convention in some cases…I recall a case where a man got refugee status, then the Home Office succesfully appealed, so the man decided to bring his case to his local MP….Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary!
76 - Thanks NIck
Actually, I’m not anti-labour as such and I can envisage a labour party which I could support but this one isn’t it.
If you’d come across me pre-97 people would probably call me an anti-tory lib dem labour floater.
Knowing that any party will inevitably muck up, I just like to see another lot given a chance to do so instead of the current one.
258 - Cicero, it certainly would be less stressful (and I have suggested that in the past), but she prefers Sainsburys because ‘their produce is fresher’ - you know how women can be…
Actually, I’d much rather that she just go and do it herself and then she can go wherever she likes. They have clerks to carry the bags out thesedays. What on earth does she need me for??
250-old timer
‘As someone who’s known Nick Palmer for over 10 years and who originally thought of his strap line Positive Politics I think Princz is a little too personal at slagging off him personally and laying all the Labour Party woes at Nick’s feet.’
Are you sure? as at 227 your mate doesn’t seem to know anything about you handywork.
81- point I was trying to make is that a local government revival in Ipswich hardly points to a global sea change in political fortunes
272. It pains me to say it, but its rather good…I liked the cow as well! Though the name change to “personal political broadcast” seems a bit of a gimic to me.
277. Yeah, I thought he was a strange choice to start with, didn’t exactly look like your traditional Tory voter, but I suppose that is the aim of NuLibCon.
I think that the very fact that Nick Palmer keeps coming back here despite receiving so much abuse says much that’s positive about him.
He doesn’t have to come here and there are no benefits to him in doing so - it’s not as though there are any floating voters here. lol That’s very clear…
Speaking as a Conservative voter, I don’t agree with Nick on very much but I generally enjoy reading his postings. They’re usually informative and very good natured.
I think that certain people need to decide whether or not they want politicians to be accessible. Perhaps a few more of our MPs might be encouraged to post here (and other places) if people were to lay off attacking the few MPs who do have the guts to do so.
UKpaul - Thanks for posting link - certainly VERY different from Nu-Lab - cute and also said something about WHAT Conservative councils are doing - pity almost all of them were in SE, but I guess thats where most of them are…I suppose we got as far north as Shropshire. Its certainly different - and as far as these things can work (which I guess is not a lot to not at all) I hope it does work - if nothing else to move the terms of debate on from current discourse….Wouldn’t it be nice if this was either ‘the green disaster’ election, or ‘the green triumph’…..but my guess is that it will be neither…..
282 - why would the use of the music of a proudly gay man be homophobic?
281 - “genuinely don’t think anyone watches them” (PEBs)
You’d think not, but the total audience on all channels typically comes to around 10-11m per PEB, which only Coronation St and EastEnders manage to beat.
So well done Labour for making sure 10m voters get the message that the Tories have changed, that you’re scared witless by the new Tory leader, and that you’ve absolutely nothing to offer voters despairing over their local A&E being shut down, their GP (who they can never get to see) getting paid £250k pa, and their local dentist being a 75 mile drive away…
Keep it up chaps!
90: Just interested to see whether anyone else saw what I saw- but maybe it’s all in my own head.
There we go, the Tory broadcast actually said something about local issues and didn’t once attack Labour. It might not have been as polished or eye-catching as Labour’s, but at least it said something positive.
87-PJ
He was only talking about Ipswich!
Have now watched Labour’s PEB again. Still like it. However, that is irrelevant, as is the opinion of every die-hard of Tory, LD or Lab on this site. I like it but it won’t make me vote Labour. Almost everybody who visits this site who gets a vote this May, will vote and knows exactly for which party. What we think of the PEB counts for zilch.
Just made my children watch it. They are 5 and 3. They loved it. They then watched it again. I can see Dave the Chameleon joining Thomas the Tank Engine, Noddy, the Tweenies and Newsnight as their firm favourites. (I lied about Newsnight.) I just hope they do not become Labour voters.
291 - Quite a few of those may have the telly on but take the opportunity to visit the loo, make a cup of tea or even heaven forbid have a conversation.
I think Mike made a good point earlier that one of the key targets of this one was quite possibly Labour helpers and core supporters. If I were one of those, I would have had a good chuckle over it and it might motivate me to deliver a few leaflets and return my postal vote in a couple of days.
Again I’d reiterate that some of the posts above take the approach that this came across as some sort of vicious attack ad (homophobic for goodness sake!). I don’t see it at all - it was at least ostensibly all done with a very light touch indeed - a “bit of harmless fun”. Not sure about the “offensive to cyclists” line that has come out - I rarely cycle so it passed me by but maybe it was seen that way by the more hardened pedaller.
re 243. I like the Private Eye inspired Patsy - which is just what she is. She sounded particularly under the weather yesterday trying to be Her Master’s Voice in lying about the NHS. Hope her pension plan is up to date.
262 PJ The Alec Douglas Home broadcast on the nuclear deterrent immediately before the 1964 election was widely thought to have brought him close to pulling off an amazing win. As it was he lost by a whisker.
276. Nick Palmer - conceivably the level of ‘abuse’ you are now getting may reflect an increased general hostility to the government.
Btw I am amused you think the criticism you get is ‘a problem for the site’..a very self-important comment, if I may say so.
91-Bob Sykes
Would that be an NHS or private dentist that’s 75 mile drive away.
All the dentists where I live have been privatised by New Labour.
Do you think we might get a reduction in tax for the contribution we are paying towards non existent NHS dentists?
re 276. Nick I think you’re wrong about the Tory supporters. The Tories supported the war and can have nothing to complain about the lies, the tens of thousands dead, and the bare faced cheek of someone who whenever asked comes up with a different reason for why we went to war. I think you’ll find that it’s the Lib Dem supporters who show the most inevective against government sycophants. Personally I can’t wait for Bliar [non sic] to go, I think he’s an aberration in the general line of principled leaders we have in this country, and I’d even be happy if he fell under the proverbial number 11.
280 - SBS. The worst Liberal broadcast surely has to be the one with Jimmy Savile interviewing Jeremy Thorpe
271 Tristoph Nick Palmer certainly does have a personal responsibility for Nulab behaviour. He is a Labour MP, God help him, and he can have a very direct effect on how the government and party behave. He might not be successful in trying to change things but he should certainly be seen to try or take the flak for not trying.
There is little evidence that he is trying.
He also talks about not being into personal attacks yet a simple search of this site shows how negative he has been about Dave. Yes, he dresses this up as humour sometimes but so does the PPB. So where is the difference?
Nick is so often in tune with the Nulab spinners slightly before they get into the mainstream that it seems reasonable to assume that his posting is not only known to the whips but approved by them.
Those that think a politician need not accept any responsibility for his party’s actions, would you say that about those in the Nazi party? “Oh not my fault my leader persecuted Jews. Nothing to do with me gov!” Would you say that about BNP Candidates? “Not my fault my party isn’t perfect!”
Nobody should ever get away with hiding behind their party. They send boys off to kill and die in an illegal war based on their lies and then hide from any responsibility? What is this? The Mafia running Britain?
does calling your critics ‘mad axemen’ not count as personal abuse,too?
89. I agree Steven, As a tory living in North East Scotland I may not agree with Nick’s politics but I do enjoy reading about his views as a labour MP in Westminster. I just wish a few more MP’s were brave enough to post here.
304 Printz. Go look on your pillow !! …… and then lie down in your Darkened Bedroom.
Nick Palmer I particularly like the very Nulab sentiment you express above after listing the preferences of some of the more regular posters here these are all legal views and we’re entitled to express them.
So what are the illegal views that we may not express? The authoritarianism of the current government gives me goose bumps when I read that sort of thing written by one of their MPs.
Care to clarify?
306 Chris D. Are you hearing any interesting snippets from Moray?
09. Jack I wish!
I find it amazing that I am getting more information from posts on here. Compared to the hype surrounding the Dunfermline byelection this one does not seem to be attracting much attention outside Moray.
310 Chris D. Ah the power of the web !! and the dog and bone.
Is the Press & Journal giving Moray much coverage? ….. certainly the on-line edition appears bereft of coverage from what I can tell.
I wish some contributors would reread what they’ve written before posting. Not only does this give you a chance to correct orthographic and grammatical (not to mention factual) mistakes, it also allows you to review the tone of what you’ve written. Of course, if you like spouting invective, that doesn’t make nuch difference; but if you want to interest other people, it does.
AHM: I think I put your back up a little a day or two ago about Con/LibDem marginals in the South and Midlands. (Sorry to be late, but I saw your post only today). I see what you mean, because you didn’t refer to winning seats specifically, whereas Rik Willis (whom I also mentioned) did. Sorry; I didn’t mean to traduce you. By the way, though I have certain sympathies with the LibDems, I am not a member and have seldom voted (residence abroad); and even more rarely for the LDs.
I think the anger level from Tory posters has increased because any trace of anger has had to be removed from their policy portfolio in order to try and become electable. They have to let it out somewhere!
Just popping in…My first view is that dave the chameleon is the new labour new danger campaign with a smiling face.
It has the same message, the opposition has changed, but you shouldn’t believe it, because deep down they are the same as before.
Certainly did not work in 1997, and for my money, all it will do is remind inattentive voters that “something” is happening with the tories.
311 - Jack the P & J are not covering it in any great depth at all- just brief snippets. Only the local paper the Northern Scot. The Scotsmans headlines have been a bit puzzling lately -a change of ownership seems to indicate a change away from the editorial line under the previous owners.
?14 - no, it is different. Painting TB as the devil was pretty nasty; DC as a lizard is quite sweet and funny. It is a less vicious campaign.
313 Will. Ah…. it all makes political sense now :
Castrated Tories Squeal Into The Ether …… ouch
Where’s Lady Matlock when we need her ??
311 - It’s maybe not parochial enough for the P&J Jack! Now what was the Titanic headline again . . . .
Not much in the off-line edition either. Friend in the office gets it everyday.
317.”Where’s Lady Matlock when we need her ?? ”
Shopping and spending Lord Matlock’s money, probably
That’s why he failed to buy, uhm, I mean get a peerage……
315 marcia. Thanks. The Scotsman seems to be a very angry paper recently and its’ political coverage a tad off the scale. Indeed Scotland on Sunday appears a paragon of balance and impartiality in contrast.
I came across this this evening
http://www.cleanupwestminster.com./
spotted a few SNP members who I know had signed it.
319 Andrea. Well by inference from Will and moi, we may have two Lady Matlocks ……
Shopping for bread at Beaconsfield Sainsbury has never been such fun as the two grand dames sweep down the confectionary aisles ! …. small cob darling ?? ….. oh no dear, a large farmhouse, this is Beaconsfield !!
315. I must admit I have been surprised at the lack of coverage in the P&J. It will be interesting to see what kind of turn out there is on polling day.
Hi Nick, i have always agreed with your strong argument against fox hunting.
The Tory PPB was much better.
Shows Tories are the new Nice party.
Made mostly by the people for the people.
Made the link with local communities (clean streets/parks etc) appropriate for local elections.
Showed a diversity of people.
Repositions Tories towards the centre.
Moves Tories on from past baggage.
Recognises that the environment is increasingly of concern (far more people belong to environmental groups than parties).
Could help boost the Green Party vote where Tories are behind, splitting the Labour vote.
Argued the futility of voting Green when Tories can win.
A positive message (did not engage in personal attacks).
A uniting theme gave a co-herent easy to remember message.
Non-patronising.
Calming music added to the tranquility that can be obtained through Tory green initiatives!
Setting the political agenda.
Fantastic positive publicity for Cameron.
A very good reason to vote Tory.
If I was a Labour MP with a marginal seat, I would be very worried.
keep telling yourself that
325 Printz. If you were a Labour MP in a marginal seat, we’d all be in the Darkened Room !!
Very O/T and probably being done to death in other blogs, but to those who have read it, what do they think about the Euston manifesto?
http://eustonmanifesto.org/
325. Maybe worried in 3 years time when there might be a GE, but now now! Councillors might have something to worry about, but I don’t think the Tory PPB is going to scare Labour MPs 11 months after a GE!
I do wish that people wouldn’t switch around their usernames, I’m not sure what they’re trying to prove (apart from then being able to agree with yourself).
I suppose dishonesty in this merely reflects the dishonesty of our leaders.
Just musing aloud……
28 - I mentioned this ear;ier and nobody took a blind bit of notice.
It seems to be summable up by the phrase - ‘everyone hates us, we don’t care’.
New labour are the new Millwall…..
hahaha
good one
I am a Lib Dem and watched by PEB’s with my other half (I should add that I made her watch them as she realy has no interest in elections or politics whatsoever. Her opinion of the PEB’s was that The Labour one was great (she liked the turning up of the volume that they did for the line “I’m a man without conviction”. Overall, she got the point, she added “he does seem to change what he is each day doesn’t he”.
As for the Tory one, dull, rather uninspiring and her comments were “Dave is having a Green day today”. Anyone who saw both would have been struck by the fact that Cameron was changing his colours again for effect.
I also spoke to people at work about the Labour one. They are mainly Libs of Labs, with a couple of Tories. Those who saw it generally liked it, one said that they don’t normally watch PEB’s, but they wil watch the next Labour one because they liked it !
[285] I wonder if you might persuade Her Ladyship
of the merits of online shopping- Ocado and so on…
I tend to agree that Nick Palmer particularly has been getting a great deal too much bile on this site, especially today. On the principle that the empty barrel makes the most noise, I suspect that the people who tend to resort to invective and personal abuse are doing so when they can not find either sufficient information or difference to attack in terms of ideas. For as long as large parts of British politics are a policy free zone I fear that this nasty shrillness will become standard background noise.
I may profoundly disagree with people here -especially Nick on ID cards!- but it serves no purpose to reduce politics to a bear garden. Humour is always welcome, but some of the comments today were neither funny nor particularly true. Can we gently cool it please?
[328] hmm… a bit Billy Bragg isn’t it?
Cicero no offence mate but are you a generally entertaining person?
330. I take it you are not a fan? Am undecided, I would like to know a little more about who wrote it. Seems a bit too NuLabish. But I do agree with the basic premise; that the Left has some serious issues which it needs to resolve.
36 - Well anything that Oliver Kamm has signed rules me out for a start!
332: Why did you make your wife watch it if she has no interest in politics?.
338 - It always amazes me how many people claim to have had in depth discussions with people who have absolutely no interest in politics. Always people whose prior political leanings are widely known as well
339: I agree. You put it better then I could.
338. maybe to ask for an opinion?
338: Yes, but why. Doesn’t he trust his own opinion.
re 328. I take it then that none of the Euston manifesto signatories could possibly support the Legislative & Regulatory Reform Bill. I don’t understand why there isn’t more of a fuss about it and can only hope that Salisbury convention notwithstanding the HoL chucks it straight out at the 2nd reading stage.
Chris Rennard in an e-mail missive asking LibDems to help in the locals and the Moray by-election says he will be in Moray all weekend. He must be expecting a good result
342 is in answer to 341
342. I always ask for others opinion, but I’m not a very confident man.
344. if he’s going there, it means the LDs are having a good result.
Re turnout at Moray, very recent local by elections in Scotland have been reasonable to good, think it was 42% at Glasgow, 30% plus at Stirling etc. I would guess between 35 and 45% next week.
Rennard, here we go again. If it were good he would be there next Monday to Thursday!!!!!, not just the weekend.
344/46. but Rennard went to Livingston too (albeit not near the polling day)
247/8 david(s)/Andrea. The Lib Dem by-election death rattle boards the train.
Aye Jack, if my information is correct understand that MC visits tomorrow and Kennedy at the weekend. They seem to be making some sort of effort.
249. Jack, as you probably could understand, some of your comments are sometimes totally obscure!
351 Andrea. Now Miss Marple ….. it’s Murder on the Moray Express !! …. Will SeaN P survive the big bite of Lib Dem Lord of the snake oil Ssssssssssssssssssss
352. If Lord Rennard will stay in the week days before the election, it means they could eat the poisoned evil apple.
If he departs Sunday evening, it probably means they’ll survive.
250 CK will have to choose his locations with care - far too many distilleries in the Constituency. A newspaper picture scoop in the making.
353 Andrea. Quite so ….. now how about some seed cake and a pot of tea Jane ?
355. you, evil creature, you’re neglecting my precious emails about your pb.com new friends!
356. got everything now…maybe it’s better if I check my email box before opening my mouth!
356 Andrea. No e-mails for a least 3 hours !
358. well, if I write it now, I think it could arrive by tomorrow’s morning!
have you a pigeon ill again? or are they on strike with Unison for the retirement age?!
What have byelections for the Scottish Parliament got to do with Ming Campbell or Charles Kennedy?
360. why couldn’t they go and support their party candidate?
You see ministers out campaigning for the Candem council, not sure why Charlie and Ming could go in Moray campaigning for a Scottish Parliament byelection.
Well … as a smug lyric-quoting Lib Dem, how about this one for the next PPB Roger?
Widdy and Theresa May as the Pussycat Dolls:
“Doncha wish your leader flip-flopped like ours?
Doncha wish your leader was a fop like ours?
Doncha …. ”
Hi ho, hi ho … doncha just love it when people revert to type? I’ve had some very good news today!
119 - John13
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am definitely not “Ben original”.
[335] Obviously not here
““Obviously Jack McConnell would like the Tories to win this seat. ”
That’s actually libellous, but I doubt whether Mr M would be bothered to waste his time on the Wombles.
312 - Pob, I usually do re-read my posts before publishing them (as well as using the Google spell checker, now that I’ve worked out how to run it!) but I always seem to miss one or two errors which become apparent to me only after I’ve submitted my comments - hence my frequent pleas for an edit facility…
Thank you for correcting the record with regard to your comments on the other day’s thread - it was only a minor point, but I did feel that my remarks had been (unintentionally) mischaracterised.
319 - Truer words have never been spoken, Andrea….
322 - Never in a million years Jack; I can barely afford the one I’ve got now!
Luntz on Newsnight now by the way, Cameron good/Blair bad so far. A group of London based floating voters. Campbell to come.
Campbell in the middle but closer to Cameron than Blair, Gordon Brown next, a little below Campbell and seen as weak on crime.
Luntz’s conclusion - the party that is most about change wil be the most successful. It’ll be online at some point in the near future if you want to watch.
Luntz…he said Prodi would have won with no problem…uhm, I don’t believe him anymore!
Luntz is the past-master at orchestrated group-think. That Newsnight continue to retain him is a complete mystery to me.
Lutz, the first time I fell for it, not so sure this time, it can all depend on what people are shown, who chooses that, Lutz presumably. To believe him last time The Conservatives under DC should be 10 -15% clear. It never happened. Also his group are “swing voters”, but I have a hunch that each party has a core support that adds up to a large % of the voters, and perhaps the 60% who do bother to vote are mostly made up of that group.
Ming - just below Cameron!
He never got above about 55 and was distinctly average. They did pick a speech where he hardly got passionate though.
Always hit and miss with the small group and the occasional speech.
Luntz…Blair seemed to have a major credibilty problem with the audience when speaking about the NHS,maybe not too surprising with what’s been happenning and Brown not much better in terms of audience appeal on the other hand poor old Ming described as a ‘wet lettuce’.
369 - Now, You wouldn’t shoot the bearer of a message you happened not to like, would you Stephen?
373 - there’s no right answer to that, AHM! Genuinely, I find Luntz’s brand of supposed political science to be utterly lacking in any robust empirical measurement.
For those who haven’t seen the TB spoof:
http://b3ta.com/board/5852550
It is amazing how the pbb is commenting on Cameron nicking other party’s ideas, you know ime sure it should be the other way round………